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Red-eye Flight From Europe To North America?  
User currently offlineKrje1980 From Norway, joined Feb 2006, 193 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 16790 times:

Hi all.

Just an interesting thought. Do you all think there could be a possible market for a complete red-eye flight from Europe to North America? Say if a flight departs LHR around 1:30 a.m. and lands in SFO or LAX around 4:30 a.m. This means that business travelers could work a full day in Europe, take the overnight flight, and arrive fresh and ready for work (providing one flies J or F of course  Wink). When flying the day-flight from Europe to the North American West Coast, one usually arrives quite tired because of the time difference, and as a result one "loses" a day of productivity.

I don't know if a complete red-eye from Europe to North America has ever existed, but I would think that it could be possible. I know that I certainly wouldn't mind taking such a flight as I find red-eyes more peaceful and relaxing than day-flights.

Again, I have no idea if this would really work, but it would certainly be interesting to hear other opinions on the issue!

73 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33038 posts, RR: 71
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 16775 times:

While not Europe, El Al's flights from Tel Aviv to Miami and Newark, as well as one frequency to JFK, operate as redeyes.


a.
User currently offlineJopavon From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 304 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 16731 times:

You have IB flights nonstop from MAD to MEX leaving MAD @ 1:50 and arriving 6:00 am to MEX


Come fly Mexicana, to Mexico!
User currently offlineCarduelis From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2001, 1586 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 16719 times:

Don't forget the nightime departure restrictions from LHR, and who wants to land in the West Coast around 0300 in the morning?


Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
User currently offlineCO7e7 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2849 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 16701 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
El Al's flights from Tel Aviv

don't forget CO 91 TLV-EWR and DL 153 (i'm not sure about the flight #) TLV-ATL both depart TLV around midnight and arrive at the US destinations around dawn.


User currently offlineTrekster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 16701 times:

Even if i were a business man, why on earth would i wanna land in LAX/SFO at 0430.

By 9am you would be knackered anyway from Jetlag


User currently offlineUPPERDECKFAN From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 16646 times:

Most of major airports in Europe have curfews inplace between 2300/2330 to 0430/0500, I can recall LHR, LGW, FRA, CDG, having to depart before midnight would result in a too early arrival to be practical.

Also a factor here is that expenses would go high as airlines would need ground staff at odd hours. Also transportation from the airport would be an issue.

IB flight to MEX is an exception because there is no curfew at MAD. They also have redeyes to EZE, GRU, MVD after midnight.



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User currently offlineMBJ2000 From Germany, joined Dec 2005, 426 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 16647 times:

Quoting Krje1980 (Thread starter):

How many airports in Europe allow departures in the night? For example MUC is shutdown after 23.30 AFAIK...



Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending -- Bender Unit 22
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8481 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 16629 times:

Quoting Trekster (Reply 5):
Even if i were a business man, why on earth would i wanna land in LAX/SFO at 0430.

For the same reason you land in FRA/LHR at 5am. Why does it work in one direction and not in the other? I admit that some Eastbound red-eyes offer slightly better schedules but a red-eye is still a red-eye no matter what direction you fly  Smile


User currently offlineKrje1980 From Norway, joined Feb 2006, 193 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 16610 times:

Well, I am sorry for not thinking about the night curfew Europe. You are right! This would really cause a lot of hassle. I guess I have my recent experiences from traveling South East Asia to Europe in mind. Here flights leave around midnight/1 a.m., and lands in Europe between 4 and 6 a.m. I actually prefer these flights, and find it much easier to cope with jet lag after these flights than after the day-flighs I've taken from Europe to the US.

User currently offlineLXA340 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2006, 2127 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 16594 times:

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 4):
don't forget CO 91 TLV-EWR and DL 153 (i'm not sure about the flight #) TLV-ATL both depart TLV around midnight and arrive at the US destinations around dawn.

Same for LY flighs to YYZ and LAX. I would say LY is at the border as flight times are long enough and flights arrive more or less ok around 5AM or later. Whereas all other origins from Europe have a too short flying time to any destination in the USA to make a decent red eye. As somebody said you don't want to arrive at 3 or 4 AM. LY for instance has some weird flights leaving HKG early evening and arriving around 3AM in TLV which is also not good. Getting back to the red eye thing, it's the same vise versa, why almost no airline offers USA - Europe flights during the day. As flights would need to leave arly morning and arrive late in the evening. Hence, BA and AA offer flights from JFK, BOS and ORD to LHR and that's it if I am not wrong?


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33038 posts, RR: 71
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 16581 times:

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 10):
Same for LY flighs to YYZ and LAX.

Only MIA, JFK, and EWR have TLV-USA redeyes. TLV-LAX leaves TLV at 0620; TLV-YYZ departs TLV at 1255.



a.
User currently offlineSolarWind From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 16522 times:

AA DEL to ORD Leaves around 1:00 am And gets to ORD at about 5:00 am...Now thats a LONG red eye..

User currently offlineLXA340 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2006, 2127 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 16463 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
TLV-LAX leaves TLV at 0620; TLV-YYZ departs TLV at 1255.

Both of them used to be night fligh flights until a few months ago I gues they changed it then. Are you sure you aren't confusing the 12:55 departure to YYZ with the AC flight?


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33038 posts, RR: 71
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 16420 times:

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 13):

Both of them used to be night fligh flights until a few months ago I gues they changed it then. Are you sure you aren't confusing the 12:55 departure to YYZ with the AC flight?

You're right. El Al departs at 0050.



a.
User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 16230 times:

While the NAT system doesn't restrict east bound or west bound flights to specific hours - it STRONGLY encourages that flights stay within the set hours for the direction of travel.

Those hours are centered upon passing 30W @ 0400 UTC eastbound and @ 1500 UTC westbound

Remember the most critical parts of a North Atlantic crossing occur far away from any nagivation aids, in places where constant active communication with ATC is not possible, where ATC cannot confirm aircraft positions.

Navigation errors do occur - daily - the system works well and aircraft can contact other aircraft in the air along the route for help - lost SELCAL and CPDLC communications occurs - so position reports can be relayed by other aircraft.

[Edited 2007-07-27 18:15:34]

[Edited 2007-07-27 18:16:25]

User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 15897 times:

One issue with red-eyes from Europe to North America is the arrival times in Northamerican airports.
Westbound red-eyes usually work when there are long flights and/or the time difference between Europe and destination is just a few hours.
AF, KL and IB for many years used to fly red-eyes to the Caribbean. I believe KL may still do it to CUR/AUA, not sure about AF to FDM and PTP.
I would think that the routes most likely to see red-eyes from Europe - flown by U.S. airlines - one day might be:
LON/MAN-ATL DL
LON/MAN-JFK/MIA AA
LON-EWR/IAH CO
LON-PHL/CLT US
LON/MAN-IAD UA
LON-DTW NW
MAD-MIA AA



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineHaggis79 From Germany, joined Jun 2006, 1096 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 15816 times:

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 15):
While the NAT system doesn't restrict east bound or west bound flights to specific hours - it STRONGLY encourages that flights stay within the set hours for the direction of travel.

well, what about the AF late evening flight to and dailight flight from JFK, then?



300 310 319/20/21 332/3 343 AT4/7 143 B19 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 742/4 752/3 763/4 77E/W CR2/7/9 D95 E45/70 F50 F70 100 M11 M90
User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 15804 times:

Actualyl if a market existed LHR-IAH is the best timings. IAH is far from LHR but 2 times xones ahead fo SFO.

User currently offlineUPPERDECKFAN From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 15804 times:

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 16):
I believe KL may still do it to CUR/AUA

Several moons ago, not any longer.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 16):
MAD-MIA AA

Only one feasible from your list (on IB metal) since there is no curfew at MAD and IB has a block of late departures to EZE,GRU,MVD,MEX,GIG between 0000 and 0230



744,742,741,772,773,762,732,735,738,752,727,717,DC10,DC9,M82,M87,319,320,321,343,346,L1011,CRJ2,CRJ9,E190,ATR42,DSH8,
User currently offlineNA747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 120 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 15734 times:

Quoting Krje1980 (Thread starter):
This means that business travelers could work a full day in Europe, take the overnight flight, and arrive fresh and ready for work

you must be an owl or some kind of nocturnal creature...
I could see it work from the airline's standpoint (feeding traffic), but fresh and ready to work, for me?  no 
What about when the jetlag kicks in?


User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2182 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 15725 times:

I know that NRT-CDG on AF at night is fairly successful so why not? But curfew on major European airports (the only ones who might have the market for those) will not help. Also, the big markets in N Am are mostly in the North part (NYC, ORD, YYZ) so flights actually are rather short for a lot of time zones crossed, which makes you arrive almost at the same time as you left. Also, long parking times for aircraft after arrival in America could play against, although they could be used for a daylight return flight.


When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlineNoelg From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 15685 times:

I did LHR-YYZ as a red eye on AC a few years ago, not sure if it's still operational but we departed at 21:00 from LHR and arrived in Toronto at 00:00. Ours was just about the last flight in, we then had an 8 hour layover in the check in hall at YYZ for a flight at 08:30 the following morning to MIA!

It was really wierd arriving in YYZ seemingly 3 hours after departing LHR!


User currently offlineUPPERDECKFAN From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 15654 times:

Quoting Noelg (Reply 22):
I did LHR-YYZ as a red eye on AC a few years ago, not sure if it's still operational but we departed at 21:00 from LHR and arrived in Toronto at 00:00.

That's not a redeye but a late evening flight.....



744,742,741,772,773,762,732,735,738,752,727,717,DC10,DC9,M82,M87,319,320,321,343,346,L1011,CRJ2,CRJ9,E190,ATR42,DSH8,
User currently offlineBuck3y3nut From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 881 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 15593 times:

Quoting SolarWind (Reply 12):

Almost all international flights from DEL or BOM going towards Europe depart between midnight and 5 am with the exceptions of some flights during DEL's fog season...
Those are all Red-Eyes...


25 UPPERDECKFAN : Actually an IB redeye could takeoff from MAD at 0210 (before MVD and EZE) and land at MIA at 0535. Any thoughts about the feasibility of this one?
26 Goldorak : yes, but it leaves NRT at 10 pm, not in the middle of the night. Both leaving and arriving in the middle of the night is really a hassle. Either as a
27 CJAContinental : Cargo flights would take priority at the desitination airports, and I think a trans-atlantic red eye would really make things more complex for control
28 Airplanenut : And a superb flight at that... I've been on 12:30 and 1:00am departures to JFK, and had a great night's sleep on both. The 12:30am flight got in a 4:
29 Edelag : AM 22 MAD-MTY Departs 00:20 Arrives 05:20 Saludos, from Kirkland, Wa
30 Viscount724 : But for passengers it would feel like a redeye since they would have arrived at 0500 LHR time! AC's last LHR-YYZ flight now departs at 1935 and arriv
31 EHHO : Don't know exact numbers, but there aren't many. I know that in Germany, CGN is pretty much an exception, one of the very few without curfew.
32 RFields5421 : I said STRONGLY. There are flights every day outside the NAT system. They have to use different routing and stay away from the NAT airspace. The east
33 Post contains links Viscount724 : And no doubt a major reason why CGN is the largest UPS hub in Europe, and handles quite a few other cargo operations I believe. http://www.pressroom.
34 FlyLKU : I go out of my way to take the night departures from the States. The later the better. By leaving late one is tired enough to actually sleep; a much
35 RobertS975 : Problems when arriving in the 4AM time period... nobody to pick you up, very few taxis at that time of night, public transport often shuts down (excep
36 Mir : Well, if you got a good night sleep on the flight over, you'd arrive rested, and while you'd be jetlagged, it wouldn't kick in until later in the day
37 JDAirCEO : AA141 Departs LHR 830pm Arrives JFK 1050pm Isnt exactly a red-eye but it is a very late departure and allows for a full day of work and arrives in eno
38 2travel2know : There'll be connecting possibilities after 0600 from MIA, for that part O.K., and is nice if IB is into having a day-light MIA-MAD, but if not, what
39 Haggis79 : ehh... why? the westbound flights usually take a route farther up north to avoid those westerly winds, don't they? So the eastbound flights should st
40 Mir : NAT tracks are designed on minimizing time, not necessarily following the jetstream exactly. If the jetstream is too wide, it may be that it's faster
41 N62NA : It's not so much different than landing at LHR / FRA / CDG / AMS at 0600 (or earlier if you get favorable winds). Same goes for flying all night east
42 NewYorkCityBoi : Red eye westbound: you will feel less tired than eastbound! Westbound: if you leave europe late at night (from some airport that dont have curfew)...
43 AirframeAS : I disagree with you. A red-eye is eastbound flights, IIRC.
44 Jhooper : Not to mention you're likely to be held at a very inefficient low altitude if flying against the NATs. We do it in the military all the time where pr
45 Mir : It is different - it's less stressful in terms of jetlag. If you leave London at 1:30am, you'll be pretty damn tired - tired enough to get some sleep
46 Ckfred : AA's last arrival from LHR arrives ORD at 7:20. That isn't a redeye, but it's probably the latest European arrival at ORD. IIRC, AA's last arrival use
47 Andahuailas : assuming there were red eyes westbound, airlines would hurt having to schedule the eastbound early mornings. Daylight flights from N.A. have proven le
48 Krje1980 : Regarding the potential turn-around issue, I still believe it might be a possibility if the schedule is something like this: LHR - US West Coast. Depa
49 Post contains images Krje1980 : Just a correction. I see that I have scheduled the two examples above for 11 hour flights, when the return trip obviously should be 10 due to the favo
50 Post contains images Airbazar : No a red-eye is an overnight flight regardless of which direction it flies. The Northbound flights that leave S.America/S.Africa at night and arrive
51 N62NA : To the majority of you who have posted here supporting the eastbound overnight flights to Europe, touting the benefits of them being great for busines
52 Airbazar : Don't get me wrong. I would prefere a daylight flight. The problem is, I have nothing to do in London, or even in Paris or Frankfurt if one existed.
53 Mir : Never thought they would. On the other hand, they'd get the benefits of a full day in Europe rather than a half-day or even a wake-up-and-rush-to-the
54 Post contains images Fbgdavidson : Interesting thread. Had never considered an overnight flight going westbound but in some cases it could work. That's just a late departing flight. Exa
55 FlySSC : CDG operates 24h/24h AF never had any red-eye flight TO the Caribbean. AF004 leaves CDG at 8:45PM to land in JFK at 11:00PM. Not really a "red-eye" f
56 Mir : Would you consider eastbound transatlantic overnights red-eyes? From the east coast, they may not allow much time to sleep, but what about an LAX-CDG
57 FlySSC : As you montionned, LAX-CDG is a 10h30 long flight is definately not a red-eye flight to me... or else, you have to consider all "night flights" as "re
58 N62NA : Agreed! From reply 51 above: red-eye "airplane flight which deprives travelers of sleep," 1968, from the red eyes of sleeplessness; Online Etymology
59 Aisak : Well If that flight departs LAX at 15:35 (AF 65) i'm sure most people won't be tired or bored enough to get some sleep until 20:00 or even later). An
60 FlySSC : Definition of "Red-Eye flight" : A red-eye flight is a flight operated by an airline late at night or very early in the morning, during the period fro
61 2travel2know : Mid 80's, I flew AF CDG-PTP-CCS and the flight which was supposed to depart 2300h departed late and had a 0530 PTP arrival. AF LIM via CAY had a simi
62 764 : If one defines "red eye" as complete night flight, Lufthansa once had a flight that left FRA at 7:30pm and arrived JFK at 10pm. This was a complete ni
63 Krje1980 : Well, in order to clear up the topic I introduced, I should maybe alter "red-eye" to "overnight" flight instead. Meaning that I refer to a flight in w
64 Lfutia : Sometimes it comes in as early as 4.15am and by 5-5.30, I'm seeing Indians/ Americans coming for security to make their connections. Leo
65 UA772IAD : Are'nt these flights also significantly cheaper, because of the late departure time? It seems as though a lot of flights to/from Latin and South Amer
66 TurkishWings : While considering red-eye flights from Europe to West Coast, do not forget the return flight. You would either have the plane stay in the airport for
67 Post contains images AirframeAS : I disagree with you. I prefer to take flights like that.
68 Airbazar : Night flight and overnight flight are 2 very different things. A flight that leaves LHR at 8:30pm and arrives in JFK at 11pm is a night flight but no
69 Post contains images 3201 : They actually have some operational problems with this flight -- having to leave NRT before curfew and arrive CDG after curfew forces it into a slowe
70 FlySSC : The airport is opened 24h/24h, with several departures/arrivals late at night, and very early in the morning, particularly with the Cargo (FeDex). Th
71 TWAtwaTWA : Aircraft cabin air is depressurized (compared to ground pressure) and is kept dehumidified. This wreaks havoc on the mucous membranes of the body that
72 AirGabon : Red Eye Flights: - all the domestic flights in Russia departing Moscow to Ural and Siberia, - all the Aeroflot night flights from Western Europe to Mo
73 GeorgiaAME : Red eyes to anywhere are a crime against nature
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