AF777 From Canada, joined Jun 1999, 223 posts, RR: 0 Posted (12 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1186 times:
My sisterjust got back from a trip to the Bahamas. They connected to Boston through Atlanta. The flight to ATL wasa little late, but once they landed they sat in the plane for 1 hour. First pulled into a gate, then the ground crew pushed them out and they taxied to another gate where the same thing happened. This went on for an hour so they missed their connection. Then, the next flight left on time but was kept at the gate for 30 minutes with the ground crew standing watching the plane saying there were various issues. Then they left and began to taxi when they were called back to the gate because a maintenence had not signed whatever needs to be signed to allow the plane to fly. I havn't heard much about this occuring with Delta recenty, just the Pilots, but I guess everyone is trying to screw things up. My sister did say they the desk agent was really nice and he upgraded them, and that the service was wonderful. Anyone have any info on these problems? Thanks and Merry Christmas
NKP S2 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1714 posts, RR: 6 Reply 1, posted (12 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1106 times:
That is an irresponsible, rediculous conclusion to come to. How one can extrapolate those circmstances into a conspiracy theory is beyond me... but very telling in todays "crisis" media driven culture.
AF777 From Canada, joined Jun 1999, 223 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (12 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1088 times:
Could you please elaborate. I am just wondering if the mechanics at Delta in ATL are having some sort of a CHAOS type labor movement. There is nothing irresponsible about by conclusion, because its not a conclusion. from the passenger's point of view it is a real pain to have to sit in a plane for hours as a result of a labor movement, I don't think you can dissagree with me about that NKP S2. It is absolutly amazing how much people get jumped upon in this forum. Someone can write something innocent and it is taken the wrong way because they are just reading, and not hearing the person's tone of voice.So anyway, can someone answer my question, and kind info would be greatly appriciated
NKP S2 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1714 posts, RR: 6 Reply 4, posted (12 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 1070 times:
AF777: Why don't YOU elaborate? I wasn't there, I don't know the details...and neither do you. Hell, I don't even work for Delta. What I have a problem with is people making broadly speculative, and defaming aspersions and assuming any difficulty they experience is the result of some kind of a conspiracy. --- Again, you're assuming any kind of issue causing delays are a "labor action". Delays for a myriad of reasons happen all the time...every day.
DL Widget Head From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2062 posts, RR: 5 Reply 5, posted (12 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1040 times:
AF777 have you also considered the possiblity that the DL mechanic(s) simply overlooked signing off the aircraft log book? I'm sure they were working as expeditiously as possible to minimize any further delay and to that end, may have forgotten to sign off on their work (as required by FAA law). I am pleased to hear that this mistake was caught and then rectified in a timely manner and that DL treated your sister in a professional and courteous manner. However, I must agree with NKP S2 in that you made an incredible assumption based on the fact the your sister's flight took a delay.
AF777 From Canada, joined Jun 1999, 223 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (12 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1032 times:
The word conspiracy never entered my mind. The reason I "assumed" that the delays were the result of a labor movement is that a Flight Attendent told my sister that it was a labor movement. So it was. I was wondering if someone knows more about it. Merry Christmas!
AF777 From Canada, joined Jun 1999, 223 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (12 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1030 times:
Hi if you read my last reply you should get the jist of what I am about to say. I nwouldn't assume something because of a delay. A flight attendent told my sister that it was a lab or movement, not just too many planes too little space and no "mistakes" on the part of Delta. In hate having to justify my posts when I am posting truths and asking for more details. I am not meaning to offend anyone and hope that you do not take my posts as such. Thanks for any correct info that you can add concerning this labor movement in Atlanta
DeltaSFO From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2488 posts, RR: 23 Reply 8, posted (12 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1028 times:
DL Pilots are ASSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nice comment, spinmaster. They took a pay cut four years ago, same as you. The difference is they haven't gotten it back yet.
On another note, I've heard some bad news about what's going to happen after two critical dates: 1/1/00, and 2/28/00. Do you know anything about that, spinmaster?
Everybody else... there is no movement among AMTs to unionize. I have been in Atlanta for two weeks, and I feel for your sister, AF777. It is a mess. A big one. Terrible weather plus the usual troubles of running the world's largest hub added up to a horrific day for passengers and Delta employees alike. The only union issues right now at DAL are the pilot contract negotiations, a small and weak flight attendant unionization movement, and an even smaller and weaker group of CSA's and ramprats that want to unionize. Management is doing okay (yeah, okay, not great) at keeping people reasonably happy, but that may change very soon... Leo's got a little cleaning up to do after Ron Allen.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
Mikeymike From United States of America, joined May 2000, 406 posts, RR: 2 Reply 9, posted (12 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1015 times:
There is a critical date in mid-january that all of us arew working hard to meet to help management and the pilots settle the contract (at least from us folks in engineering) but I can sympathize with anyone who believes the pilots are jerking us around when they demand exhorbanant money when you have been in the some of the meetings I have seen. Its the whole fact that many pilots make 3 to 4 times as much money as the normal every day joe and now demand to make 6-7 times as much, do to (in some part) ego's from what UNited has set as an industry precedence in pilot. Don't get me wrong, the pilots have a very stressfull and tenuous job, and I think the majority of them do require higher pay for there work, but to many of us lay-men, they seem just to be very greedy which could hurt them in end. I have talked to several pilots who agree and disagree with many of the issues, but it seems like there representation (i.e. ALPA's Master Executive Council) seems to have a socre to settle from a few years ago. Any pilot out there have any views on this?
NKP S2 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1714 posts, RR: 6 Reply 10, posted (12 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 996 times:
AF777: I sense you're being less than honest here. You seem to think a comment from a flight attendant ( so you say ) validated your original premise ( a labor related intentional slowdown )...I think it's but a "strawman" argument. ---- I have a question or two: 1)Why were you not forthcoming in your original post if you though such a comment was the basis for your opinion? Don't be so smug...You've raised more questions on the credibilty of your remarks than you've answered here. - 2)Did it not occur to you that any comment from an employee bashing another group would be suspect? I doubt an attendant would even make such a speculative comment...and if he/she did, it would be ( or was ) VERY unprofessional behavior on his/her part.
Delta737 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 516 posts, RR: 11 Reply 11, posted (12 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 989 times:
Greedy pilots. Interesting.
Well this greedy pilot was rerouted through Xmas, returning on the 26th. We blocked-in at DFW at the end of the trip this morning and this "greedy" pilot had to deadhead to SAN to cover a trip starting the next day on the 27th.
Hopefully, you had the luxury of opening presents with family, enjoying some yuletide spirit after the big turkey dinner before logging on to check the latest airliners.net gossip on Xmas.
This "greedy" pilot hasn't seen his family for the past week. Not including missing every weekend for the past few months or any discernable major holiday. This "greedy" pilot ran out of clean clothes and underwear DAYS ago, but is still expected to look bright and shiny tomorrow morning for SAN to DFW.
Anyone in the SAN area want to loan me a fresh epaulet shirt, clean black socks and some 32-waist boxers?
Mikeymike From United States of America, joined May 2000, 406 posts, RR: 2 Reply 12, posted (12 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 969 times:
Delta737, I'm not saying that you don't have a tough job, but when the first statements come out that you need 45% pay increases just to be the most paid pilots in the world, it tends to give people negative reaction. The other comment which I read, which was disheartening was when the MEC downplayed pay-for-performance by saying that it was a complex formula eratically built to give some sort of pay increase. We all have our tough work times as well, and I'm not about to go into mine from the support I have given the pilots, but maybe you have other perspectives on the situation than just having to work on christmas like many of us. Again, let me re-iterate my point from my previous post, I believe the pilots should get more pay, but is it necessary for every PILOT to be the MOST paid for the next year or so before another pilot union tops you guys off. I guess the real question is: Is pay-for-performance really that bad????
Delta737 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 516 posts, RR: 11 Reply 13, posted (12 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 963 times:
Well here are my thoughts on "pay for performance"
The fundamental problem with "pay for performance" is that it is based on criteria that is beyond our control.
If some marketing guru decides to scrap a business-elite LAX to BOS flight in order to increase service from ATL to SAV and loses millions of dollars, why should my family pay the price for a bad management/marketing decision?
The "performance matrix" is also based off of vacation-time usage and sick leave usage. Or if I have to go on short-term disability for an illness or injury, which is a factor on the "pay for performance"/matrix formula, why should my fellow employees be financially punished for my injury?
Many in the media talk about 777 pilots earning $265/hour. Well, at Delta, only about 70 pilots earn that out of nearly 10,000 pilots. That's less than 1% and a large majority of those 10,000 pilots will never be a 12-year 777 captain for more than a few years, if at all.
And it's not based off of 40 hours per week for a 160-hour month. It's flight pay alone. This month, I've flown about 80 hours at $99.50 (MD-90 rates). But I've been away from home for about 290 hours this month in hotels, "deadheading" around the country and sitting in terminals at the rate of $0/hour.
Do I think I deserve a raise? Of course. When I was a kid, an airline captain could easily afford to buy a nice airplane, a lovely house and a luxury car. Now, with the cost of living increases over the last 15 years with raises less than the consumer price index, an airline captain is lucky to afford a modest house, a late-model honda accord and an occasional PA-28 Archer rental.
Keep this in mind, when your family doctor raised his rates over the past few years, did it make the evening news? How about when the lawyer down the street charges $500/hour during an office visit or charges $15/minute for a telephone consultation fee? How about the CEO to a large firm laying off a large percentage of it's workforce and then taking a multi-million dollar golden parachute as the company fails?
CAETravlr From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 907 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (12 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 947 times:
I don't disagree that pilots at a major airline should be paid well. However, I believe they should be paid well based on the amount of training required for the job, and the fact that they are supposed to be neat and sharp, as well as handing aircraft worth millions of dollars. However, as far as not seeing your family at Christmas, which is hard to deal with, pilots are not the only employee group at an airline that has to deal with this. Flight attendants are very underpaid in my opinion, they sit on reserve a lot of times, have the same pains about being away from home as pilots do, and have to know the ins and outs of safety on MULTIPLE aircraft. I agree that the pilots job deservers more money, but with some FAs making below poverty level, I believe the disparity here is too great. It does show however, that each employee group has a very narrow focus, themselves. I am not knocking anyone, I just have an opinion. I hope the pilots get what they deserve, that the other employee groups get what they deserve, and that the airlines as a whole continue to flourish.
I sure wish that I could afford a modest house, a late model Honda Accord (I still aspire to one of those), and to rent an airplane every now and then... You have it better than lots of people.
A woman drove me to drink and I didn't have the decency to thank her. - W.C. Fields
Mikeymike From United States of America, joined May 2000, 406 posts, RR: 2 Reply 15, posted (12 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 931 times:
All points well taken, but lets not forget you chose to be a pilot, which means, surely you understood the expectations that came with the job. (I.e. odd hours/nights away from home). Maybe not yourself, but other pilots chose to live in cities that are not crew bases, so they themselves are screwing themselves right there. You might not be paid for all the additional hours you sit in an airport or have to be put up in a hotel, but your surely not losing any money nor are you having to do an extra-ordinary work that is above and beyond the requirements of a normal pilots job. (i.e. the company pays for your food/hotel expenses). So the real matter is you are sacrificing your time with your family for there well being which is assumed to be health benefits and monetary compensation. Most
Even if right now, you aren't up there in seniority quite yet, you soon will be and your base pay after a few years of service is typically twice that any other management position at Delta with pretty much half the time typically put in. Once your seniority is there you can bid for more appropriate lines and thus have more time with your family.
As for pay-for-performance, if its based on something beyond your control, then your absolutely right, its not pay for "performance", but if thats the case then why doesn't the ALPA MEC proposed something on there own scale towards pay-for performance to show a sympathy of good faith to the airline. (maybe they have, I don't know). Perhaps maybe management would be more sympathetic to your needs if this was the case. Although I have no clue as to what the formula thats used for pilots in pay-for-performance, in order to keep a company standard, every other facet of the company has adopted some form of a pay-for-performance scale which is the absolute correct thing to do. Why should you work your butt off as a pilot to be as good as you can be just to make the same amount of money that john-slacker-pilot does?
Again, I'm not saying that you don't deserve a raise, but it goes without saying that pilots already make more money than just about anyone else in the company. But when pilots use propaganda and make claims that they are being screwed by the airline because they don't make as much as there competitor, then its a sign of greediness similar to a new kid on the block getting a better toy. I.e. United got more money now we need to get more money than them. This is very cyclical and i bet that in 5 years down the road we'll arguing the same points once again.
Widget1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (12 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 936 times:
"The fundamental problem with "pay for performance" is that it is based on criteria that is beyond our control.
If some marketing guru decides to scrap a business-elite LAX to BOS flight in order to increase service from ATL to SAV and loses millions of dollars, why should my family pay the price for a bad management/marketing decision?"
I agree. Now explain to me how you can ask for your "share" of Delta profits. You had nothing to do with them, right? Therefore your salary should have NO link to company performance. If that is the philosophy, how can pilots dare demand that they be REWARDED for company performance! ALPA has been saying for years now that the pilots deserve a share of the company's good fortune. It is apparent to a child that pilots want it both ways.
According to your line of thinking, only the marketing gurus deserve to have their pay tied to performance. By the way, most of those gurus make less than $100k a year. Seems ironic, given the responsiblity they have over the company's financial performance...doesn't it? Some pilots will get raises in their next contract that are bigger than the annual salary of most marketing analysts. The irony is that the increased pilot costs will have an extremely negative impact on the company's bottom line. And guess what that means...the marketing guys didn't increase profits..no raise for them!
Y'all need to get your enormous ego's out of that rarified air and take a look at the big picture. Do you people really think that all of this job action garbage is "restoring the profession"? Ask the man on the street what he thinks about pilots nowadays. Your name is dirt to most people. You've done more to damage your profession than any airline ever could.
By the way...if you think that BOS-LAX is more profitable than ATL-SAV..it is a good think you aren't a marketing guru.
Mikeymike From United States of America, joined May 2000, 406 posts, RR: 2 Reply 18, posted (12 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 920 times:
Yea, but look on the bright side, we may all be arguing with each other over this new pilot contract, but I don't think this topic has gotten to the point of a flame war quite yet, unlike some other forums I've seen. I just hope we keep it civilized, later folks....
AF777 From Canada, joined Jun 1999, 223 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (12 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 898 times:
How am I being less than honest here? In my orignial post I had spoken with my sister once and heard about the speculated labor issues. Then after reading your pained response, I spoke with her again and she said that flight attendant (with whom she spoke with for 1 hour as a result of sitting on the ground for that langth of time in the first row of coach facing the jump-seat) told her that this was the case. Maybe it wasn't, but that was the reason for this post in the first place, to find out if it was or wasn't. As a result of the evidence I heard I speculated it was and was wondering if anyone else knew. Yes, it did occur to me that the flight attendant may have been less than truthful but after speaking with my sister for an hour about a multitude of topics, my sister seemed to feel that she was being honest. But to be sure I decided to post my question here for some friendly answers. I have received some, but not from you.