Egyptair has finally decided which way to go , after months of speculations . The Airline has decided to buy more A330/200 . The rumours were circulating that the Airline may split its order between the B777 and the A330 .
The order is for 5 A330/200 plus 3 options in a deal worth about 600 Million Dollars .
The first two A/C are to be delivered in 2011 and the other three in 2012 . the Airline chairman stated that they are planning to increase MS fleet to 76 A/C in the coming 5 years which indicates that may be more orders are coming ( more B777 ? ) , he also indicated that they are trying to acquire larger fleets of specific types of A/C for more commonality , mentioning 18 A330 in total .
The Airline currently operates :
12 A320
7 A330/200
4 A321
3 A340/200
4 B737/500
2 B738 ( 10 more on order )
5 B777/200LR
3 E-170 ( 3 more on order plus 6 options ) operating under Egyptair Express .
HECA From Netherlands, joined Apr 2007, 220 posts, RR: 1 Reply 2, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6750 times:
This is great news! Pity though that the first new Airbuses won't arrive until 2011, but understandable concerning the large order intake at Airbus. Speculations were about ordering 12 new aircraft, question is if another 4 aircraft will be purchased. Egyptair certainly needs another three A332s to achieve a total of 18 A332s. Another question indeed is whether these new Airbuses are for expansion, or partly for replacing the older subfleet of A342s.
Quoting MSYYZ (Thread starter): The Airline currently operates :
12 A320
7 A330/200
4 A321
3 A340/200
4 B737/500
2 B738 ( 10 more on order )
5 B777/200LR
3 E-170 ( 3 more on order plus 6 options ) operating under Egyptair Express
Minor correction: Egyptair operates the 772ER, not the LR type
MSYYZ From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 846 posts, RR: 9 Reply 3, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 6665 times:
Quoting EI321 (Reply 1): Will these A330's replace the A340-200?
Quoting HECA (Reply 2): Another question indeed is whether these new Airbuses are for expansion, or partly for replacing the older subfleet of A342s.
The rumor about getting rid of their A340's comes around about every summer . After discontinuing about 14 destinations back in 2004 , Egyptair is now in an expansion mode , as Horus mentioned before , they hope to open few long-haul routes before 2010 ( Chicago , Washington , Toronto ..Etc) .
At least these A340's can hope for at least 4 more years before the arrival of the first new A330's . Although i have to admit that i will really miss them .
Quoting HECA (Reply 2): This is great news! Pity though that the first new Airbuses won't arrive until 2011
Unfortunately , they were too late to place the order to get these birds before 2010 . But still late is better than never .
Quoting HECA (Reply 2): Speculations were about ordering 12 new aircraft
We could be surprised by another order of B777's at any time .
Quoting HECA (Reply 2): Minor correction: Egyptair operates the 772ER, not the LR type
My bad , thanks for correcting my typo , by the way how was your trip to Egypt ? Are you planning to write a T/R ?
Behramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4447 posts, RR: 43 Reply 4, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6277 times:
In mid June when this topic was originally discussed on A.Net, I had written that for the 12 acft order 8 B 77Ls + 4 A 332s should be ordered...guess it turned out to be the opposite way around.
A 332s can easily fly from CAI nonstop to ORD, YYZ and IAD.
FLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4930 posts, RR: 53 Reply 5, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6257 times:
Behramjee,
You need to consider the economics of the 77L, they are certainly not meant for a small carrier like Egpytair. Egpytair certainly doesnt have the financial backing to sustain loses like EK and EY do with these airplanes
I hope that A330-200 is used to help in a greater North America function, especially in the hopes of making YUL year-round.
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21029 posts, RR: 60 Reply 11, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6016 times:
Quoting Moo (Reply 9): In most cases where an entity is state owned or controlled, the goal is to provide service first, profit second.
And part of the reason for providing service is to create a positive public image for a nation/region/religion. another reason is to damage the business of another nation's airline. another is to connect countries/regions that other people just won't risk flying to, or who have various embargos or sanctions against them. another is to just say "mine is bigger than yours."
Anyone who thinks the huge mid-east airline build up is all about profitable airlines is fooling themselves. it's so much more...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Jacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 61 Reply 12, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5902 times:
..EK have their numbers published by their accounting firms which is released to the media....its in the public domain and you and you can find it......
Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 8):
3- Prove it.. there is no credible report that shows profits order than massive orders of airplanes
......like I said, EY won't be profitable for a few more years.....
TK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4108 posts, RR: 13 Reply 13, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5899 times:
Quoting Behramjee (Reply 4): A 332s can easily fly from CAI nonstop to ORD, YYZ and IAD.
I wouldn't be so sure.
TK flies the 332 IST-JFK (5016 m.) on Weds. and Sats. only, taking penalties on the cargo and pax West bound. So with even hotter climate at CAI, there could be similar issues.
CAI - ORD 6149 m
CAI - IAD 5842 m
CAI - YYZ 5746 m.
Congrats to Airbus and MS.
Behramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4447 posts, RR: 43 Reply 14, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5750 times:
Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 5): You need to consider the economics of the 77L, they are certainly not meant for a small carrier like Egpytair. Egpytair certainly doesnt have the financial backing to sustain loses like EK and EY do with these airplanes
Hi,
Yes I do know that and the only reason why I mentioned the B 77L for MS is because of their long haul wish list for which the B 77L was ideal for i.e. CAI-IAH + CAI-LAX + CAI-Japan and CAI-China
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 6): 2 - EK are massively, massively, massively profitable.
3 - EY are also profitable IIRC.
Both your points are wrong for the following reasons :
a) EY has never been profitable
b) Emirates as an airline isnt profitable but as a GROUP OF COMPANIES is profitable i.e. Emirates Group which includes DNATA its biggest money maker.
A388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9077 posts, RR: 13 Reply 15, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5465 times:
Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 5): You need to consider the economics of the 77L, they are certainly not meant for a small carrier like Egpytair.
Why would the 77L not be meant for a small carrier like MS? What's the reasoning behind this? MS is not a small carrier. They're not the biggest airline around but they are certainly not small. Nonstop routes like CAI-LAX, CAI-Japan and CAI-China can indeed be attractive with the 77L or any other ultra-longhaul widebody aircraft. If the market is there why not go for it? If it isn't than these ultra-longhaul flights will not be profitable (if that is what you mean) but in that case it has nothing to do with the aircraft or the airline.
MCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8553 posts, RR: 14 Reply 17, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5182 times:
HECA From Netherlands, joined Apr 2007, 220 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4113 times:
Quoting MSYYZ (Reply 3): My bad , thanks for correcting my typo , by the way how was your trip to Egypt ? Are you planning to write a T/R ?
Thanks for asking, had a great time in Cairo; two weeks are just too short! Flew with LX, as usual the flights were good. Was amazed though by the high loads, certainly on my way back. Terminal 3 really rocks! Didn't realize it would be located so close to terminal 2. I'm very curious if it will open on time next year. Which carriers will move to terminal 3 besides MS? And will terminal 2 receive an update after terminal 3 opens?
TR is coming! Just really busy with work since I've returned, haven't even got a chance to upload my TR to LIS last May...
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 6): 1 - Egyptair are, unless I'm very much mistaken, State owned which means they can be loss making to their heart's content.
Egyptair is indeed state-owned. In the past this might have been an excuse for loss making to their heart's content, nowadays it's a profitable company. Horus provided an excellent overview of their current financial situation in the thread on Egyptair's 75th anniversary.
Quoting A388 (Reply 15): Nonstop routes like CAI-LAX, CAI-Japan and CAI-China can indeed be attractive with the 77L or any other ultra-longhaul widebody aircraft.
Egyptair is already offering nonstop flights ex CAI to Japan (NRT and KIX). China (PVG and PEK) is served via BKK, while LAX was suspended years ago (being served via JFK). In my opinion, Egyptair does not need a subfleet of expensive URL aircraft (whether 77Ls or A345s). The current 772ERs and A342s fulfill Egyptair's need in the current route network. The A332s will support in this.
LXA340 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2006, 2104 posts, RR: 4 Reply 19, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3948 times:
Quoting TK787 (Reply 13): I wouldn't be so sure.
TK flies the 332 IST-JFK (5016 m.) on Weds. and Sats. only, taking penalties on the cargo and pax West bound. So with even hotter climate at CAI, there could be similar issues.
Oh yeah, how come they are using it then? Also with how many less pax is TK operating the flight, I gues only affecting Economy not business?
HECA From Netherlands, joined Apr 2007, 220 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3629 times:
Quoting LXA340 (Reply 19): Quoting TK787 (Reply 13):
I wouldn't be so sure.
TK flies the 332 IST-JFK (5016 m.) on Weds. and Sats. only, taking penalties on the cargo and pax West bound. So with even hotter climate at CAI, there could be similar issues.
Oh yeah, how come they are using it then? Also with how many less pax is TK operating the flight, I gues only affecting Economy not business?
Egyptair used to operate the B767-300ER on the CAI-JFK (and onwards to LAX) for years. I believe these flights were operated without penalties, perhaps Horus or MSYYZ can shed more light on this. However, it would be surprising if CAI-IAD and CAI-YYZ with the A332 would operate with penalties, especially since other carriers like AF operate the A332 on some of its longest routes.
Flying Belgian From Belgium, joined Jun 2001, 2360 posts, RR: 10 Reply 21, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3546 times:
Quoting LXA340 (Reply 19): Quoting TK787 (Reply 13):
I wouldn't be so sure.
TK flies the 332 IST-JFK (5016 m.) on Weds. and Sats. only, taking penalties on the cargo and pax West bound. So with even hotter climate at CAI, there could be similar issues.
Oh yeah, how come they are using it then? Also with how many less pax is TK operating the flight, I gues only affecting Economy not business?
Well I'm surprised to read that TK is limiting its payload on that route.
AF is using exactly the same metal (A330-203 GE engines) on some of its CDG-NRT flights (and formerly CDG-KIX) and up to my "best" knowledge, AF does not have the habit to assign routes to aircrafts that would face payload restrictions.
On of the big reasons is the hot climate to take the penalty. CAI will be even hotter.
I don't know the exact number of seats or cargo penalty, but this issue was discussed at TK Aviation Threads a lot.
TK still uses the 332s on the IST-JFK route twice a week, since the TK 343 fleet is going through interior upgrades, the first one took something like 40 days.
Another reason to use the 332 on that route is, as opposed to the 343 fleet 332s have personal screens in Y, and nice J product. It is inconsistent to use better product 2 out of 8 flights a week, but gives the customers a taste of things to come.
MSYYZ From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 846 posts, RR: 9 Reply 23, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3238 times:
Quoting Behramjee (Reply 4): I had written that for the 12 acft order 8 B 77Ls + 4 A 332s should be ordered
Hi there Behramjee , i think 8 B777's is just too much capacity for the Airline for the time being , i had expected the A330 order as the Airline stated many times that they were very happy with the A/C performance and that it suits a lot of their routes . Expect more orders to come as they are planning a total of 76 A/C within the coming 5 years , now they stand at 59 A/C ( including the ones on order and the options ) .
Does that mean more B777's ? To be honest i have no idea , but my expectation is that we can see one more Small order for the T7's .
Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 5): Egyptair certainly doesn't have the financial backing to sustain loses like EK and EY do with these airplanes
Modernizing and competing with the Gulf carriers (EY,EK and QR) was a matter of life or death for Egyptair , particularly with the move for open skies , or else the Airline will be eaten alive .
Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 5): especially in the hopes of making YUL year-round.
Although i would love to see YUL a year-round service but it is highly unlikely unless the Airline adds YYZ as a tag on like Olympic and the Czech Airlines do .
YYZ , being the economic and business powerhouse of Canada and with its big market and diverse ethnicity , could sustain a year-round 2-3 times weekly though .
Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 5): they are certainly not meant for a small carrier like Egyptair
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 6): MS a small carrier? No mate - dont think so. Bigger than most.
MS is certainly no LH or AF , but i wouldn't call it a small carrier , the Airline flies to 67 destinations worldwide in 45 countries . In 2006 , MS carried 5.8 Millions passengers , an increase of 12% year over year . It employs about 21.000 employees .
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 6): - Egyptair are, unless I'm very much mistaken, State owned which means they can be loss making to their heart's content.
In 2002 , Egyptair became a holding company and since then , the Airline has started a major restructuring plan to turn to profitability . In July 2002 , Egyptair suspended its route to SYD and SIN due to continuous losses in excess of LE70 million annually. A few months before, it had suspended its LAX route, attributing the move to tightened security procedures at US airports and concerns about the safety of air travel following the events of 11 September as reducing its customer base .
Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 10): So then why did MS drop 14 destinations in 2004?
Obviously there is some kind of profit centered restructuring that was undertaken
In 2004 , the Airline went into another shrinking mode by suspending : Kiev, Copenhagen, Stockholm, Cape town , Vienna, Hamburg, Aden, Dar Essalam, Ras Al-Kheima, Harare, Fujira, Karachi, Manila and Entebbe . Some of these routes were reopened later on .
The Airline is planning an IPO for 20% of its shares ( about $ 900M ) to finance the new orders .
In the recent years , the Airline has turned to profitability :
In 2004 , MS had a $53M profit .
In 2005 , $75M profit .
And in 2006 , $85M profit .
Quoting HECA (Reply 18): Terminal 3 really rocks! Didn't realize it would be located so close to terminal 2. I'm very curious if it will open on time next year. Which carriers will move to terminal 3 besides MS? And will terminal 2 receive an update after terminal 3 opens?
Ah , that orange terminal , last time i was in Egypt ( 2 months ago ) , it looked like they were way behind schedule . I hope it will open on time after being few months late so far .
My understanding is that all Star Alliance Airlines ( LH,LX,SQ and BMI ) will move / use the new terminal along with Egyptair of course streamlining the operation of these carriers with the potential Alliance member MS .
I believe Terminal 2 is due for a major upgrade , hopefully after T3 opens .
Quoting HECA (Reply 18): China (PVG and PEK) is served via BKK
FLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4930 posts, RR: 53 Reply 24, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3210 times:
Quoting MSYYZ (Reply 23): Although i would love to see YUL a year-round service but it is highly unlikely unless the Airline adds YYZ as a tag on like Olympic and the Czech Airlines do .
YYZ , being the economic and business powerhouse of Canada and with its big market and diverse ethnicity , could sustain a year-round 2-3 times weekly though .
Clearly, your nickname reveals bias. YUL vs YYZ-CAI are about the same daily average pax numbers. The main beyonds in CAI, BEY/ALP/DAM/AMM are as strong from both markets, if not stronger out of YUL. If your talking about southern middle east DXB/JED/AUH, then YYZ is the bigger market, but let's not pretend that MS has the stuff to compete with Etihad or Emirates for the beyonds to these markets.. especially premium pax.
Egyptair is free to serve Toronto.. why havent they? Please provide a clear and logical reason, other than rumour/conjecture
25 MSYYZ: That comment put a smile on my face . Whether your username is YYZ or YUL wouldn't change the fact that YYZ is the financial , economic powerhouse of
26 FLYYUL: This is irrelelvant. Your looking at the market from a MACRO perspective. We need to look at the appropriate market sizes to Egpytair's network. Thei
27 MSYYZ: The Airline and Egypt in general are also considered the gateway to N.America and Europe from East Africa , the likes of ( ADD,KRT,NBO,ASM,EBB..etc)
28 CHRISBA777ER: I hate it when people try to tell me my job. I've met with both companies a few times and discussed AT LENGTH their credit stems with various fuel su
29 MSYYZ: There are talks that there will be a bridge that would link T2 and T3 , especially that the 2 Terminals are physically adjacent . Unfortunately , LAX
30 A388: FLYYUL, What kind of work do you do in YUL? Are you working in the aviation business or an airport? Seeing that you are a native from the Netherlands
31 HECA: They are already working on that bridge; while driving to departures at T2 you have to pass below it. Why on earth is MS serving CAN? Isn't PVG more
32 MSYYZ: We all expected the second city that MS would fly to in China would be PVG , but apparently studies showed that CAN was a viable option due to econom
33 HECA: Oh well, if MS can make CAN work, whose complaining?! Even carriers like KLM are serving comparable cities in China (KLM serves Chengdu nonstop from
34 MSYYZ: Egyptair is trying to change its operations to "Hub and Spoke" , I wish them all the best . Finally they are willing to take advantage of Egypt's uni
35 HECA: I hope that our friends of LH (and perhaps LX) can help MS achieve this. Same goes for Fraport whose involved with the management of Cairo Internatio
36 MSYYZ: There are indeed interesting times ahead for Egyptair .
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, by the way how was your trip to Egypt ? Are you planning to write a T/R ?
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In 2002 , Egyptair became a holding company and since then , the Airline has started a major restructuring plan to turn to profitability . In July 2002 , Egyptair suspended its route to SYD and SIN due to continuous losses in excess of LE70 million annually. A few months before, it had suspended its LAX route, attributing the move to tightened security procedures at US airports and concerns about the safety of air travel following the events of 11 September as reducing its customer base .
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