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Single-aisle Widebody  
User currently offlineCygnusChicago From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 758 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7180 times:

Sitting on one of UA's 767s last night, I was wondering if one can install wider seats in business class in a 3 3 configuration. Sure, if you do that you add a dreaded "middle-seat", but that effect can be countered by a staggered configuration, like EOS, or even the way UA's 767s have the center block offset a little from the side blocks.

Has any airline ever turned a wide body class into a single aisle? Is it even permissible?


If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23027 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7151 times:

Quoting CygnusChicago (Thread starter):
Is it even permissible?

3-3 would be OK, but seats with more than 2 seats between them and an aisle would not.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7097 times:

Does the 767 have the seat tracks to support 3-3 seating? I doubt it.

User currently offlineRivet42 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 818 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7008 times:

I suspect that from a safety point of view, having two aisles in Y class merging into a single aisle in C class would not get past certification. If only the front doors (port & starboard) were available for evacuation, you'd never get everyone out in an acceptable time (whatever that might be).

Riv'



I travel, therefore I am.
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23027 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6965 times:

Quoting Rivet42 (Reply 3):
If only the front doors (port & starboard) were available for evacuation, you'd never get everyone out in an acceptable time (whatever that might be).

A 6 door 763 (or any 772/747) could probably avoid this problem.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineN353SK From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 822 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6921 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 2):
Does the 767 have the seat tracks to support 3-3 seating? I doubt it.

If any airline were crazy enough to try 3-3 business class I'm sure the seats could be built to fit the existing tracks.

I suppose 3-3 seating would lead to slightly more seat width than 2-2-2, but I can't see anybody paying $7,000 for a middle seat to heathrow.


User currently offlineShannoninAMA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6881 times:

Im almost certain im getting this wrong, but say for economy, is this what you are talking about?



5 seats | Aisle | 5 seats



Shan  silly 


User currently offlineOntime From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 65 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6707 times:

Thompson Solutions actually markets business class airline seats which use only a single aisle on the 767:

http://www.thompsonsolutions.co.uk/sketch15.html
http://www.thompsonsolutions.co.uk/ts_business_lopa.html#

By taking advantage of the space otherwise used for the extra aisle, they claim to be able to convert the plane from economy to all-business class (fully flat-bed seats) with only a 2-to-1 seat ratio, which is pretty extraordinary considering that most business class seats (even "old-style" non-flat seats) occupy the space of 3 economy seats. And their website also claims to be able to shift from old-style business seats (60" pitch) to fully-flat seats with no loss in capacity at all.

However, if an airline wanted to keep both a business and coach cabin (as it does seem impossible to have a coach cabin on the 767 with only one aisle), Thompson doesn't have any layout showing a single-aisle in business class, with a dual aisle in coach. I suspect that is for the reason that is noted by Rivet42 above -- that it would be difficult to get that layout certified. Which probably also explains why no carrier has gone with this layout. (Though it does seem odd that it's acceptable to have an entire 757-300 evacuate using one aisle, but not a 767 which in many cases is carrying less -- sometimes far less -- passengers.) But if it could be made to work, it's an intriguing idea.


User currently offlineKhelmdtw From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 269 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5597 times:

I thought the definition of a widebody was more than 1 isle, wouldn't that make it a narrow body?


In Thrust We Trust
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2444 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5537 times:

Quoting Ontime (Reply 7):

Kinda glad you beat me to posting those links. I would taken some guff.



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineThering From Brazil, joined Jun 2006, 530 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5475 times:

So widebodies with only 1 aisle only in full-business/first config, otherwise impossible for security reasons.


146 319 320 321 332 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 742 743 744 762 763 772 773 CRJ ER4 100 F50 F27 M11 D10
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2444 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5442 times:

Quoting Thering (Reply 10):
So widebodies with only 1 aisle only in full-business/first config, otherwise impossible for security reasons.

More really for evacuation reasons, IIRC.



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineCygnusChicago From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 758 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5204 times:

Quoting Ontime (Reply 7):
Thompson Solutions actually markets business class airline seats which use only a single aisle on the 767

Thanks for the links - interesting stuff. I'm not too sure how their 4+4 works with aisle access, when the seats are down, but they're definitely thinking creatively.



If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5036 times:

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 9):
Kinda glad you beat me to posting those links. I would taken some guff.

Have these clowns ever sold anything to anyone, or are they just spinning their wheels? There used to be a guy on here who was a shill who would push this as the solution to every problem, and there were claims that airlines were "seriously considering" the designs.

Yet, haven't heard of any airline actually biting...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineOntime From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 65 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4499 times:

Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 12):
Thanks for the links - interesting stuff. I'm not too sure how their 4+4 works with aisle access, when the seats are down, but they're definitely thinking creatively.

It's actually not 4+4, it's 2+2, with each passenger having a console next to them. The seats are staggered left/right so that when you are fully reclined, your feet are underneath the console to the left/right of the passengers in the row in front of you. It's a little hard to describe, but the pictures in their "gallery" section do a better job. For example:

http://www.thompsonsolutions.co.uk/benz2.html
http://www.thompsonsolutions.co.uk/benz4.html
http://www.thompsonsolutions.co.uk/gallery_benz5.html


User currently offlineSv2008 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 622 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4037 times:

Bit off topic, but - could an airline make a 3 aisle aircraft in economy? So on a 777-200 it would be 2-2-2-2?

I know it would be pointless because it wouldn't make any money, just wondered if it would be possible!


User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2444 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2674 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 13):
Have these clowns ever sold anything to anyone, or are they just spinning their wheels?

They have a license agreement with Sicma Aeroseats to put this system on Emirates and China Southern A380's. There used to be a power point on TS website stating this, but I couldn't find the link to it.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 13):
There used to be a guy on here who was a shill who would push this as the solution to every problem, and there were claims that airlines were "seriously considering" the designs.

Last post in this thread.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/3357567/

Big version: Width: 300 Height: 232 File size: 129kb



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineCygnusChicago From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 758 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2618 times:

Quoting Sv2008 (Reply 15):
Bit off topic, but - could an airline make a 3 aisle aircraft in economy? So on a 777-200 it would be 2-2-2-2?

I guess that would be possible, but they'd be sacrificing floor area, may work for an "economy-plus configuration".

Boeing did explore the 3-aisle concept when investigating a new-build VLA competitor to the A380. The design study was called the 763-246C, and featured sleeper berths:

Big version: Width: 807 Height: 419 File size: 92kb



If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
User currently offlineJammin From India, joined Nov 2006, 133 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2564 times:

Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 17):

Hmm, that's an interesting concept... I'm telling you, the movie Fifth Element wasn't so far off in its transportation ideas  Smile



Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery. None but ourselves can free our mind.
User currently offlineCloudboy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 828 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2348 times:

Why would you want to do a single isle? That would severely restrict load times. If anything, I thought airlines were more interested in smaller wide bodies because they offered quicker turn around times.


"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2444 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2314 times:

Quoting Cloudboy (Reply 19):
Why would you want to do a single isle? That would severely restrict load times.

Yes, but the difference here is that you only have to evacuate a little over 100 passengers. Not the usual 210 that the 767-300 normally carries.



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17044 posts, RR: 66
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2306 times:

Quoting N353SK (Reply 5):
but I can't see anybody paying $7,000 for a middle seat to heathrow.

Welcome to the 777. Plenty of middle seats on AA in Biz.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2301 times:

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 16):
Last post in this thread.

You are the one beating the dead horse, my friend. Emirates announced their product for the A380, three different configs. None used your system.

"licenses" to produce things are useless if you never produce anything. again, have they actually sold anything, or are they spinning their wheels?



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2444 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2284 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 22):
You are the one beating the dead horse, my friend.

I have just expressed my opinion of the concept, you are the one beating the dead horse throwing accusations at me. Say goodbye "dear friend", this will be the last time I respond to you on this matter. In regards to my "association" to the company - put up or shut up.

The statement that I gave regarding Emirates and China Southern is accurate albeit that they licensed "a part of the system". Hmmm, I wonder what that means....

The concepts may never see the light of day, but as I have said from the beginning, I think it's a good idea. Period.

The horse is now buried. I have learned you can never win a pissing match.



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineGeorgebush From New Zealand, joined Jul 2006, 679 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2231 times:

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 23):
I have learned you can never win a pissing match.

lmao! I cant believe how immature people can act on this website, its bloody seats for crying out loud! Go get a job with this "Thompson Soulutions" and share your wealth of priceless knowlege about the topic with them! And for the record you actually can win a pissing match, IF you have the right equipment...

Quoting Sv2008 (Reply 15):
could an airline make a 3 aisle aircraft in economy? So on a 777-200 it would be 2-2-2-2?

I've often thought about this too. They would only be losing one seat, and it would be incredibly more comftorble than being stuck in the middle seat of 5 in a row.



Al Gore invented global warming.
25 Starlionblue : This is true, but I would rather take more pitch than width. Anyway airlines wouldn't be able to charge enough to make up for the decreased pax numbe
26 Malaysia : I once drew a cabin configuration for my imaginary Lockeed L-1011-NG Tristar 800 Ultra. 3 GE90s and a 3x3x3x3 config.
27 Atmx2000 : I am rather suspicious of someone whose first post mentions them.
28 PC12Fan : Refer to the link in reply 16. I've been a member off and on since 2001. Couldn't have said it better myself.
29 Atmx2000 : I'm specifically talking about "Ontime" who mentioned those seats as his very first post.
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