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KL/NW To Reinforce AMS NYC To 5 Daily  
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4503 posts, RR: 72
Posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5267 times:

KLM and Northwest will gradually increase their offerings on the busy Amsterdam to New York route with the addition of one extra flight to JFK and EWR each. The increase will take place in phases and will start with the opening of a third daily JFK rotation with the onset of the winter schedule. This flight will be operated by NW with B752. Starting summer 2008, the airlines will then further increase frequencies with the addition of a second daily EWR rotation, also operated by NW's B752. As such, the entire frequency increase will come on account of NW.

Here are the details:


AMS EWR

Current flight:

now until 02DEC KL657/658 daily with A332
03DEC-05JAN KL657/658 daily with MD11
06JAN-15MAR NW063/064 daily with A333
16MAR-29MAR KL657/658 daily with MD11
from 30MAR NW063/064 daily with B752

NW is temporarily taking over the AMS EWR route from KL during the winter schedule because of scheduled maintenance operations with the KLM widebody fleet. Between 06 January and 15 March, NW will not operate its thirds daily AMS MSP rotation and that equipment will be dedicated to the AMS EWR route. The freed up MD11 capacity will move to the AMS IAD route, where the MD11 will replace the B772. The B772 will subsequently replace the B744 on the AMS YYZ route, so as to free up B744 capacity for scheduled D checks.

Additional flight:

from 08APR NW065/066 daily with B752


AMS JFK

Current flight:

now until 13OCT KL641/642 daily with A332
14OCT-27OCT KL641/642 daily with B772
28OCT-29MAR KL641/642 daily with A332
30MAR-03MAY KL641/642 daily with MD11
from 04MAY KL641/642 daily with A332

now until 29MAR KL643/644 daily with B772/B74E/B744
from 30MAR KL643/644 daily with B772/B77W/B74E

Additional flight:

28OCT-29MAR NW061/062 daily with B752
from 30MAR KL645/646 daily with A332


After all the above mentioned increase will have taken place, KLM and Northwest will, next summer operate 5 daily New York rotations from their AMS hub. These flights will be scheduled in each of KLM's longhaul departure banks. Northwest will be uniquely responsible for the EWR station, whereas KLM will take care of the JFK flights. Here are the exact schedules for next summer:

KL645 AMS JFK 0815 1030 daily A332
KL646 JFK AMS 1620 0600

NW063 AMS EWR 1015 1240 daily B752
NW064 EWR AMS 1645 0610

KL641 AMS JFK 1330 1545 daily A332
KL642 JFK AMS 1740 0720

NW065 AMS EWR 1530 1755 daily B752
NW066 EWR AMS 2015 0940

KL643 AMS JFK 1820 2015 daily EQV (B74E/B772/B77W)
KL644 JFK AMS 2210 1115

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePremoBrimo From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 425 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4917 times:

Doesn't NW have extra 330s laying around? They are using some of them domestically in the past couple weeks. They are also getting another 330 delivered tomorrow, Aug. 2. So does NW really have to cut back the MSP-AMS from 3 to 2 daily?


Now You're Flying Smart.
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4976 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4888 times:

HB-IWC,

What is happening with Toronto? I know its far out, but the res sked for 2008 does not show the KL695/696 extra 5 weekly flights.


User currently offlineJano From Slovakia, joined Jan 2004, 827 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4864 times:

Quoting PremoBrimo (Reply 1):
So does NW really have to cut back the MSP-AMS from 3 to 2 daily?

I believe they do so every winter when MSP-AMS goes to 2x daily and DTW-AMS goes to 3x daily. It seems the spare A333s will be used on EWR-AMS and SEA-HNL this winter.



The Widget Air Line :)
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4809 times:

A couple of questions:

1) I realize this is only one flight, but does NW have the ability to increase any schedule right now?

2) NW and CO might be "partners" in SkyTeam, but this strikes me as NW invading CO's EWR turf. Is CO okay with this? How are they responding?

3) Which side of the Atlantic is NW targetting with these new flights - Europe or North America? And do these flights have any connecting pax or are they solely O&D?

I'd like to think NW has done their homework on this, and they probably have, but I just can't get the image of empty NW planes flying DFW-NYC...



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8492 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4744 times:

Quoting Jano (Reply 3):
SEA-HNL

!

On A330? Oh. That is interesting.


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4687 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4):
Is CO okay with this?

....no, but why would NW care? They're still CO's competitor.


User currently offlineJano From Slovakia, joined Jan 2004, 827 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4661 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 5):
!

On A330? Oh. That is interesting.

NW 219/220. Looks like Nov 4. It's loaded in the schedule already.



The Widget Air Line :)
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6465 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4598 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4):
3) Which side of the Atlantic is NW targetting with these new flights - Europe or North America? And do these flights have any connecting pax or are they solely O&D?

I'd like to think NW has done their homework on this, and they probably have,

Everything NWA does trans-atlantic is done jointly with KL including research, homework forecasts etc. The flights have connecting traffic at a major hub-AMS, which supplies over 50% of the traffic.

I don't think NW/KL considered CO's feelings when making the decision.


User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4558 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4):
2) NW and CO might be "partners" in SkyTeam, but this strikes me as NW invading CO's EWR turf. Is CO okay with this? How are they responding?

NWA doesn't operate to appease Continental Airlines. They run an airline to make money and with the NWA/KLM alliance they are one in the same across the Atlantic. While we are on the subject, I would argue that the new routes of Delta are going more and more in the face of Continental than a EWR-AMS flight would add. In addition remember that CO can place their code on the NWA service ex EWR to AMS. It is a win-win situation..

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4):
3) Which side of the Atlantic is NW targetting with these new flights - Europe or North America? And do these flights have any connecting pax or are they solely O&D?

Knowing the New York City market, I would definitely say the European side with the wealth of connections at Amsterdam, and the New York metro areas wealth of O/D to Europe..

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4):
I'd like to think NW has done their homework on this, and they probably have, but I just can't get the image of empty NW planes flying DFW-NYC...

NWA is in business to make money.. They research their routes before starting them.. They are not going to dedicate a A319 on a route that has no proven revenue potential..

-JD


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8492 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4518 times:

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 9):

NWA is in business to make money.. They research their routes before starting them.. They are not going to dedicate a A319 on a route that has no proven revenue potential..

NW does have a history of adding and then removing ridiculous routes just to battle and hurt smaller competitors. But I agree with you here. The DFW-LGA has money making potential, being only 2 legacies in that market. It's a very thick market (even moreso than MSP) that they will both split handsomely.


User currently offlineSK601 From Belgium, joined Jun 2005, 976 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4511 times:

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 9):
In addition remember that CO can place their code on the NWA service ex EWR to AMS. It is a win-win situation..

NW and CO (or DL) cannot codeshare on TATL flights, only on domestic flights. Only KL and NW are allowed to codeshare on TATL routes between EUR and USA*. IIRC KL can't even codeshare on AF flights from France to the USA.

The only real increase is on the AMS-JFK routes, since that goes from 2x daily to 3x daily. OK, EWR increase from 1 daily to 2 daily, but with a smaller aircraft. Currently it's operated with a KL A330 with 251 seats (30/221), which will become 320 seats, just 69 seats more (NW B757 = 16/144 x2). The real benefit for the passenger is more choice in departure/arrival time.

* AF/DL, LH/UA, SK/UA etc also have codeshare flights between EUR/USA, but KL is allowed to codeshare on any NW departing from/to EUR, not just AMS, whereas KL is not allowed to codeshare on EUR/USA flights from DL/CO etc.

[Edited 2007-08-01 17:55:53]

User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4503 posts, RR: 72
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4353 times:

Quoting PremoBrimo (Reply 1):
What is happening with Toronto? I know its far out, but the res sked for 2008 does not show the KL695/696 extra 5 weekly flights.

It remains unclear whether the seasonal additions to YYZ (KL695/696) and LAX (KL603/604) will return next summer, although it's fairly certain that YYZ will. The early morning LAX departure hasn't been a stellar performer except for the current peak season, so I'm not sure whether KL will bring it back and if so whether it will be with the same schedule. The flight may well leave AMS a bit later in the morning to allow for better connectivity.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7565 posts, RR: 28
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4249 times:

Quoting PremoBrimo (Reply 1):
Doesn't NW have extra 330s laying around? They are using some of them domestically in the past couple weeks. They are also getting another 330 delivered tomorrow, Aug. 2. So does NW really have to cut back the MSP-AMS from 3 to 2 daily?

In the short term they do have extra A330 capacity due to the new deliveries that are set to replace the remaining 742 flying in the Pacific in Aug/Sept. They have also gotten creative with scheduling by using A330's that would otherwise sit on the ground in DTW/MSP until their next TATL turn and shuffled them by flying out-and-back routes. Every night an A330-300 RON's in DTW & MSP for mx.

At the end of Oct, the 4th DTW-AMS A330-300 flight traditionally ends for the season -> this aircraft will then go to SEA-HNL. 1 of the 2 daily SEA-HNL flights will stay A330-300 indefinetely as it acts as a way to bridge A330-300 aircraft / A330 crews into the Pacific to operate the increased NRT/HNL A330-300 flying, as SEA acts as an A330 mx base.

At the end of Dec, the 3rd MSP-AMS A330-300 flight traditionally ends for the season -> this aircraft will then go to EWR-AMS.


User currently offlineBoeing743 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 406 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3783 times:

So bascially all of Airbus 330 would be going to west coast for the flights between SEA-HNL and to Asia out of LAX or SEA?? IF NW keep has that 330 coming so where would they put them on what routes?? Add new routes or use it for domestic flights??

User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7539 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3728 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4):
2) NW and CO might be "partners" in SkyTeam, but this strikes me as NW invading CO's EWR turf. Is CO okay with this? How are they responding?

NW has operated EWR-AMS for years and years in the past. NW handles ground ops for KLM in the US.

Quoting SK601 (Reply 11):
Only KL and NW are allowed to codeshare on TATL routes between EUR and USA

Actually if you look NW and AF do have some codeshare flights such as the DTW-CDG flights.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days ago) and read 3321 times:

Quote:
....no, but why would NW care? They're still CO's competitor.

True, but they're both SkyTeam members. Business "partners" (and SkyTeam strikes me as being as warm and fuzzy as the Manson family!) generally don't muscle in on each other's main hubs.

Quote:
I don't think NW/KL considered CO's feelings when making the decision.

So I guess NW won't mind if CO decides to fly MSP-AMS or DTW-AMS.  rotfl 

Quote:
NWA is in business to make money.. They research their routes before starting them.. They are not going to dedicate a A319 on a route that has no proven revenue potential..

For NW's sake, I hope you're right...but as was pointed out, they've got their work cut out for them on this one. Time will tell.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineMEL From Canada, joined Oct 1999, 1098 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3296 times:

Tokyo-Saipan and Tokyo-Guam switch from 747-200 and 747-400........ to A330-300 soon. Any idea where that displaced 747-400 will go?


NO URLS in signature
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6465 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2956 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 16):
So I guess NW won't mind if CO decides to fly MSP-AMS or DTW-AMS.

CO would not decide to fly those routes as they would not have a hub at either end. NW does have a hub at one end of EWR-AMS that makes it profitable.


User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2887 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 16):
True, but they're both SkyTeam members. Business "partners" (and SkyTeam strikes me as being as warm and fuzzy as the Manson family!) generally don't muscle in on each other's main hubs.

Just as the same way that Delta and Continental are playing a tit for tat game in the New York market?

Continental flies EWR-MAN, Delta starts JFK-MAN
Continental flies EWR-LGW, Delta starts JFK-LGW
Continental flies EWR-TXL, Delta starts JFK-TXL
Continental flies EWR-EDI, Delta announces JFK-EDI
Continental flies EWR-TLV, Delta announces JFK-TLV
Delta flies JFK-ATH, Continental starts EWR-ATH
Delta flies JFK-SVO, Continental shows renewed interest in EWR-DME
Delta starts JFK-BOM, Continental announces EWR-BOM

The list goes on and continues from here. None of the alliances are exactly warm and fuzzy, I would argue that if any alliance was warm and fuzzy it would be One World who's flights seem for the most part to compliment and enhance each others schedules.

-JD


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7565 posts, RR: 28
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2849 times:

Quoting Boeing743 (Reply 14):
IF NW keep has that 330 coming so where would they put them on what routes?? Add new routes or use it for domestic flights??

During this summer/fall schedule, all of the A330's are allocated. However, due to RON's & operational spares, they are able to run some domestic A330 flights on an ad-hoc basis in between Trans-Atlantic flights and/or scheduled maintenance.

With the traditional draw-down of TATL flying during the winter, and the last of the -300 deliveries, there will be available capacity from Jan-April. The EWR-AMS & SEA-HNL appear to take some of this, but there may still be an available aircraft or two. Of course, this also when they are able to catch up on maintenance.

Quoting MEL (Reply 17):
Tokyo-Saipan and Tokyo-Guam switch from 747-200 and 747-400........ to A330-300 soon. Any idea where that displaced 747-400 will go?

These were both 742 routes that are becoming A330-300 in Sept. In the TPAC beach market shuffle of A333, 742, & 744's, a 744 does get freed up. Not sure where its going though. Obviously if NWA was awarded the 2007 China flights, that is where that aircraft would go, but that is a very big unknown at this point.


User currently offlineNW748i From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 362 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2772 times:

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 8):
I don't think NW/KL considered CO's feelings when making the decision.

Seems that nobody is Skyteam considers CO's feelings, especially when one considers the pending NW/KL/DL/AF anti-trust application... but it seems that CO manages well enough as is, so good for them. Certainly their quality of service beats NW/DL and their coverage of Europe at least seems to be the best among the US carriers. Further, their profitability, last I heard beat NW/DL...



Hail! to the victors valiant, Hail! to the conqu'ring heroes, Hail! Hail! to Michigan the leaders and best! Go Blue!
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2744 times:

Quote:
Just as the same way that Delta and Continental are playing a tit for tat game in the New York market?



Quote:
Seems that nobody is Skyteam considers CO's feelings, especially when one considers the pending NW/KL/DL/AF anti-trust application... but it seems that CO manages well enough as is, so good for them. Certainly their quality of service beats NW/DL and their coverage of Europe at least seems to be the best among the US carriers. Further, their profitability, last I heard beat NW/DL...

 checkmark 

While I agree that there are enough O&D pax from the NYC metro area for a hub at both JFK and EWR, it does seem tit for tat.

A while back, I posted a thread asking why CO is in SkyTeam - it seems to be a very poor fit. Both DL and NW seem to ignore the fact that CO is in the alliance with them. I guess it's just me, but profitable or not, CO's contributions to SkyTeam always strike me as being taken for granted, like they are a junior member of the alliance.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6465 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2734 times:

Quoting NW748i (Reply 22):
Further, their profitability, last I heard beat NW/DL...

Suggest you check your hearing

2nd quarter earnings announced by all legacy carriers

Net Profit
CO 228 million
DL 274 million
NW 273 million
US 263 million
AA 291 million
UA 274 million

CO is not joining in the anti-trust application because they chose not to.


User currently offlineNW748i From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 362 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2729 times:

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 24):
Suggest you check your hearing

The attitude is not necessary. In fact, it just got you removed from my RR list. Most would agree that CO is, generally speaking, in better shape than NW... especially considering the ops problems and the effect they are having. In spite of that NW remains my preferred carrier.

Further, some say that CO wasn't invited, while others say that it chose not to. On their earnings call CO only offered that they are happy with the status quo--nothing explicit on the application.

[Edited 2007-08-02 17:19:01]


Hail! to the victors valiant, Hail! to the conqu'ring heroes, Hail! Hail! to Michigan the leaders and best! Go Blue!
25 PSU.DTW.SCE : I would argue against that point, as each one brings a different element to the table. CO's obvious strength to Skyteam is the mega-O&D hub at EWR, a
26 FLYGUY767 : The use of Continental Airlines in SkyTeam is becoming few and far in between. Once there was a gap in service. IN the recent year Delta Air Lines ha
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