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Who Else Boston - Italy?  
User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4166 posts, RR: 2
Posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1930 times:

Who might step in to serve Boston-Milan/Boston-Rome if Alitalia ceases to exist? Or will it cease to exist, despite there being no one interested in the carrier? Will it be propped up by the government ad infinitum as the 'cost of doing business' to attract tourism? Is DL a natural candidate, despite their woes at the new terminal there (re: customs/immigration)?

Chris in NH

[Edited 2007-08-03 15:04:15]

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineNW748i From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 362 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1905 times:

Methinks Open Skies will come in handy here. I agree on DL and perhaps AA will feel compelled to step in. Considering NW's pulling out of BRU and their obvious issues I'd sadly have to air doubts about them. However, I think AF/KL would want to put something together just so that Skyteam can keep what I suspect is a profitable route. Perhaps they will bring in NW/DL and together they might all dazzle (or completely confuse) us. That's depending on what happens with the anti-trust app...


Hail! to the victors valiant, Hail! to the conqu'ring heroes, Hail! Hail! to Michigan the leaders and best! Go Blue!
User currently offlineNavairjax From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1888 times:

DL should start the FCO service they had once planned. Despite the terminal "woes" it is a rather minor annoyance to have to arrive at E and get towed to A. If it were not worth the trouble then AA would have had their own customs area completed as was once planned. The other likely candidates from the US would be either AA or NW with a small chance that US would give it a shot. As far as EU carriers BA would be a good candidate with their plan to take on non UK to US service with LH likely being another good possibilty.

User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4166 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1786 times:

Maybe the whole Open Skies thing would permit a Boston-Munich-Rome A340 with LH? Overall, though, Boston-Italy (Rome and/or Milan) are valuable enough such that nonstop service is essential rather than hanging Italy onto an existing Boston-Frankfurt, Boston-Paris, or Boston-Munich run, IMO. Even though, I believe Open Skies will permit carriers to do just that.

Chris in NH


User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5455 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1745 times:

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 3):
Maybe the whole Open Skies thing would permit a Boston-Munich-Rome A340 with LH?

Isn't that available right now?

I have a ticket next month for BOS-FRA-Rome and returning Rome-MUC-BOS (or vice versa) on LH?


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4927 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1734 times:

I guess if AZ ceases operations, Air One will speed up their long haul plans. Eurofly might also try to get some more A330's, though they concentrate on leisure traffic mostly


Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4166 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1717 times:

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 4):
Isn't that available right now?

If it's same-plane service, that's news to me. You are likely connecting, which is a whole different kettle of fish than simply sitting down in a seat in Boston and getting off (albeit eventually) in Italy.

Chris in NH


User currently offlineUsairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3474 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1699 times:

Not to annoy anyone, but who says anyone will start BOS-FCO if AZ is forced to cancel its flts.

Both AA and DL don't seem to be putting much focus on BOS. Both seem to be on the short end of international aircraft, especially when FCO is involved due to range issues. And DL has put a focus on more long distance intl flts, with ATL-china potentially happening, as well as SLC-CDG being rumored and service to Australia rumored as well.

This market also seems to be somewhat seasonal, granted without AZ in the market there will be need in general to offer more capacity. But CO goes from 2 daily flts in the summer (762, 764) to 5 weekly in the winter (762), US occasionally only offers weekly service in the winter. With current service looking like this i don't know if filling the void in BOS will be immediately necessary. This is a snapshot of summer service, so i'm not quite sure what the seasonal winter service looks like.

AA
JFK 1 daily
ORD 1 daily

DL
JFK 2 daily
CVG 1 daily (is this seasonal?)
ATL 2 daily

CO
EWR 2 daily

US
PHL 1 daily

UA
IAD 1 daily


User currently offlineDALMD88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2615 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1675 times:

Things might be changing for DL here in BOS. Last spring we were told nothing is in the works for BOS for the next year, but our local manager last week said there is a good chance we will be getting a SuperTug soon. There are a few obvious reasons; first by giving up the gates in A to CO we will need to reposition aircraft every night, second Massport may make towbarless the only way to tow on a active taxiway. A less obvious reason to get one is to tow between E and A. Just adding a little fuel to the rumor fire.

User currently offlineSailorOrion From Germany, joined Feb 2001, 2058 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1676 times:

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 3):
Maybe the whole Open Skies thing would permit a Boston-Munich-Rome A340 with LH?

They could do that right now, but why should they fly a A340 to Rome?

SailorOrion


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6538 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1662 times:

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 6):
If it's same-plane service, that's news to me. You are likely connecting, which is a whole different kettle of fish than simply sitting down in a seat in Boston and getting off (albeit eventually) in Italy.

Chris, any foreign airline that wanted to could operate same aircraft service from the US to Italy via its own country. ie: BA-BOS-LHR-FCO, LH-BOS-FRA-FCO, KL-BOS-AMS-FCO etc. But why would they want to?


User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1641 times:

Quoting Usairways85 (Reply 7):
AA
JFK 1 daily
ORD 1 daily

DL
JFK 2 daily
CVG 1 daily (is this seasonal?)
ATL 2 daily

CO
EWR 2 daily

US
PHL 1 daily

UA
IAD 1 daily

Your little list forgot a few things..

Alitalia
ORD-MXP
BOS-MXP
BOS-FCO
JFK-MXP
JFK-FCO
EWR-MXP
EWR-FCO
MIA-MXP

Continental Airlines
EWR-MXP

Delta Air Lines
JFK-PSA
JFK-MXP
JFK-VCE
ATL-VCE
ATL-MXP

Eurofly
JFK-FCO
JFK-BLQ
JFK-PMO
JFK-NAP

Like it or not there is a very large demand for service to and from the Italian market..

Quoting Usairways85 (Reply 7):
Not to annoy anyone, but who says anyone will start BOS-FCO if AZ is forced to cancel its flts.

The Boston to Italy market is one of the largest Business O/D and VFR markets to Italy from the United States..

-JD


User currently offlineB752OS From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1590 times:

Unless DL is planning on sending a 763 on a potential ATL-PVG/PEK, I don't see why they could not possibly start a BOS-FCO, or MXP flight. Then again, nothing is assured as far as AZ really tanking.

It's kind of sad that DL has this big, beautiful terminal in BOS and has no international service to show for it.

A small side note. DL has added a few destinations over the last few years, such as DAY, ALB, ABE, BVT, ISP, MDW, and TTN.


User currently offlineUsairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3474 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1523 times:

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 11):
Your little list forgot a few things..

My point was to specifically create a list of US carriers flying between the US and FCO. So in the event AZ cancelled all TA flts these flts would be the only flts available.

Quoting B752OS (Reply 12):
Unless DL is planning on sending a 763 on a potential ATL-PVG/PEK

Because DL is short on 772 aircraft which will be needed for Asian/Australian service. So unless they pick up some of AZ's 772, they will have to put a 763 on a current flt served by a 772 to free up that 772 for Asian service. So that is one less 763 to start new service or frequencies

Also with ATI possible in the future AA can offer BOS-FCO via LHR. BA/AA offer 4-5 flts BOS-LHR and BA offers 10 flts LHR-FCO especially a few that would connect nicely with an early morning arrival in LHR from BOS


User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4166 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1519 times:

Quoting B752OS (Reply 12):
It's kind of sad that DL has this big, beautiful terminal in BOS and has no international service to show for it.

I agree. Indeed, the terminal was conceived at a time when things were absolutely humming for the Boston area with all the high-tech business travel. A fair bit of that went away with the high-tech meltdown, and (of course) 9-11, but Boston is a very robust financial center. So there's your business angle. The leisure angle is simple, too: Boston is a very cosmopolitan city with pockets of population that are Irish, Italian, Portugese, and so on. I would be shocked if some other airline didn't swoop right in, IF Alitalia went away. Delta seems a logical choice, although it must peeve people at DL/BOS and probably even Massport to see a nonstop SLC-CDG come along while the carrier treads water in Boston.

Hopefully this 'supertug' is a harbinger of good things to come for DL at Logan (i.e. for big jets and new routes in 2008).

As for Alitalia, I have to believe the Italian government would prop them up as much as possible. If not, they'd be saying 'goodbye' to a ton of tourism revenue.

Chris in NH


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 15, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 1472 times:

I'll posted my thoughts on another thread, and will just copy/paste. To reiterate, though, I firmly believe that the "worst comes to worst" situation for Alitalia will be a similar to the Swissair/Swiss situation.

Nobody would fill in BOS-MXP other than Alitalia's theoretical replacement. Boston-Milan is a small local market, but connects to Alitalia's main hub. Boston-Rome is where the traffic is, and I could definltey see maybe Delta come into Boston-Rome. Boston-Italy is quite a big market, but, like most Italy-USA traffic, very low-yielding and difficult to make money on outside of the summer. Of Alitalia's ten stations in the Americas, only half of them (GRU, EZE, MIA, JFK, and EWR) turned a profit in 2006 (the worst performer - Dulles - was discontinued in September 2006).

Alitalia's poor performance in markets like Boston and Chicago, though, is a fault of theirs and their business structure, not the markets themselves. One would hope that a revised Alitalia will be able to make money in markets like Boston and Chicago, where they should be able to make a profit, but don't.



a.
User currently offlineLH423 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 6501 posts, RR: 54
Reply 16, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1449 times:

I agree 100% with MAH4546. At the end of the day, Italy will still be left with an airline, albeit a vastly reduced airline à la SR/LX. So before speculation begins on what US carrier would fill the gap, I think that needs to be looked at as the most likely scenario. What AZ needs is a complete shake-up. It needs new, sensible management who can get the airline into shape and off the government teet, again à la SR/LX.

However, in that case I'd see DL as the most likely contender. They already have good brand recognition in Italy through their regional services. AA have almost no interest in expanding BOS, particularly internationally where the rumours consistently fly about whether CDG and MAN will make it through the next year. NW is another possibility. I don't think NW are bullish on Boston but they definitely haven't made the same kind of cuts as AA have over the years and their gate situation is perfect as they're already located in Terminal E. And US and UA are not probable as neither have international service out of BOS (excluding Caribbean), and both their forays into the BOS-Europe market were fairly short lived, due either to aircraft shortage or poor loads.

LH423



« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
User currently offlinePizzaandplanes From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1435 times:

Quoting B752OS (Reply 12):
It's kind of sad that DL has this big, beautiful terminal in BOS and has no international service to show for it.

A small side note. DL has added a few destinations over the last few years, such as DAY, ALB, ABE, BVT, ISP, MDW, and TTN.

The airlines are just running their business. If international flights were profitable from BOS then thats what they would concentrate on. Instead they put their planes in the local markets to provide a service that would lead to a connecting hub.


User currently offlineUsairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3474 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1435 times:

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 14):
As for Alitalia, I have to believe the Italian government would prop them up as much as possible. If not, they'd be saying 'goodbye' to a ton of tourism revenue.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15):
I'll posted my thoughts on another thread, and will just copy/paste. To reiterate, though, I firmly believe that the "worst comes to worst" situation for Alitalia will be a similar to the Swissair/Swiss situation.

Agreed


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8663 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1315 times:

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 3):
Maybe the whole Open Skies thing would permit a Boston-Munich-Rome A340 with LH?

If they could already do that today, as posted above, US law still forces every passenger to have to leave the aircraft in that intermediate city and clear security. In this case MUC. So there's really not much advantage to operating same aircraft service. I think the most immediate consequence of AZ dropping/downgrading BOS would BOS-MUC going daily year 'round. I believe today MUC is already the largest European gateway to Italy.


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6538 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1296 times:

Quoting LH423 (Reply 16):
NW is another possibility. I don't think NW are bullish on Boston but they definitely haven't made the same kind of cuts as AA have over the years and their gate situation is perfect as they're already located in Terminal E.

I would say that NWA has made quite sizable cuts in Boston, dropping service to SNN,DUB,PIK,LGW,FRA,CDG,HAM,and CPH. These were all flown with 747 or DC-10's. That being said, there is still a possibility of 757 service returning to some of these cities.


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