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Will DL Become The USA's Largest Int'l Airline?  
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 12499 times:

A look at the traffic results of each of the US network carriers along with their aircraft orders and planned growth of international service provides an interesting comparison.

Right now, AA and UA are pretty tight at the front of the pack as the largest US international carriers with AA having a slight lead so far this year.

CO is next, followed by DL and both are about 25% smaller in international size behind AA and UA.

NW isn't far behind DL>

Now when you look at the size of the middle three carriers' international expansion plans, it becomes apparent that they will probably get very close to, if not overtake AA and UA in the not too distant future.

CO and NW both have sizable 787 orders up for delivery in the near future.

However, it appears that DL has the most international growth coming as a result of its remaining 13 764 conversions, 13 transatlantic 757s coming from TW/AA, 6 and maybe 8 or more 777LRs, 10 737-700s (some of which will be used for Latin America), and some of their domestic 763s which are said to be lined up to fly summertime all-coach domestic flights (partially replacing the 764s doing the same thing now).

Is it possible that DL will become the USA's largest interrnational carrier before this decade is out?

BTW, I'd like to welcome you to my 4th a.net BD party and this thread which marks 3000 a.net posts. While the subject evokes passion, I'm happy to share it with you, my a.net friends. The occassion is all fun! So grab something cold to drink and enjoy the party. This round is on me!

242 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently offline777STL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 12438 times:

I doubt DL will surpass AA in terms of international traffic. AA is huge in Latin America, the Carribean, and Mexico, routes that don't necessary require a large widebody to run. Who knows, it'll be interesting to see if DL can keep those second tier European routes viable. I hope they're able to sustain their rapid expansion.

User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 56
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 12405 times:

You made it to 3000.......and what an appropriate post for you to celebrate with.

Being that its your a.net birthday, I will give you the answer that you want to hear: DL will become the largest international airline in the US, it will overtake UA and AA and become the largest US carrier bar none, DL will acquire NW, US and AS causing major problems for the remaining legacies leading to their eventual downsizing and, due to DL's new strength at JFK, JetBlue will simply shut its doors. And, Boeing shall help DL out by opening up a second 787 production line dedicated exclusively for DL airplanes; thus, DL will be among the first carriers with the 787 and will be the first to acquire a huge 787 fleet.

Oh, the capital of the US will move to Atlanta........

Congrats on 3000 and 4 years at a.net, we have had our differences in the past, but its time for a good laugh, I hope that you take this post in the good-natured spirit in which it was intended.

User currently offlineLono From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1345 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 12384 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Thread starter):
So grab something cold to drink and enjoy the party. This round is on me!

Congrats on your 3000!!!.... and thanks for the great idea for a cold one.... I'm on it!!!

Quoting 777STL (Reply 1):
Who knows, it'll be interesting to see if DL can keep those second tier European routes viable. I hope they're able to sustain their rapid expansion.

I agree with this thought.... it will be interesting to see if DL can stay ahead of the competition....

Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4184 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 12345 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 2):
DL will acquire NW, US and AS

NW and AS are both the more likely. I would laugh VERY hard if US came begging them at the ATL door in a couple of years due to the inability of management to get any labor peace. Getting AS would be a large one for DL, since this would give dominance at SEA and a possible Asia/Pacific hub with less competition than LAX.
I agree with WorldTraveler on the likely merger scenarios in the years ahead. Moving the U.S. Capitol to ATL? If Robert Byrd (King Pork) were a Georgia senator rather than West Virginia, then you could count on it!  biggrin 

DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4786 posts, RR: 43
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 day ago) and read 12204 times:

WT - Happy BD and congrats on 4th and 3000th.

As for the topic at hand - could DL become the US' largest int'l airline? Good question.

My 0.02 - Short-term possibly, long-term - good question.

AA is limited in growth by their current fleet and lack of new w/b a/c deliveries for at least 3 years (next 777s come in 4 or 5 I belive) but given their cattle-car service to LatAm with AB6s, they can sustain growth given the increase in pax #s down south.

UAL? Who knows, no w/b orders and continously shifting existing routes/gauging a/c has been successful (to an extent) in sustaining short-term growth, but not sure what their long-term prospect is in terms of driving sustainability of that growth.

CO is expected to drive international growth behind the delivery of their 787 fleet which numbers 25+ now I believe. Given they are able to currently grow with their existing ops (using airplanes to the max), one can presume that the 787s will be used short-term for growth and long-term for replacement. Outside of rotating additional 757s internationally, CO is short-term limited in growth.

DL has a good platform to grow from. A few non-competitive international routes where they can command yield-premiums via first move advantage non-stop flights and a fleet of 764s which can be moved off domestic. If we go by assumption - 13 757s (exAA), 3-6 767-300s (moving to low-yielding northern euro routes), conversion of remaining 13 764s, 6+ 777LRs and a fleet of LatAm/Carib capable 73Gs, they have potential (given addition of 30+ int'l a/c) to increase international traffic beyond the competition in the near-term, providing all aircraft are operated on profit-positive, high-load factor flights.

Long-term question is what are DL's aircraft acquisition plans for the future and are they designed to further growth or replace existing a/c. The eldest 763 pushes 20 in 2010. The other thing against DL is that on average, a larger percentage of UA, AA and NWs internationally capable fleet carries more pax than the average DL bird.

Nice topic, let the speculation begin.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 2):
Oh, the capital of the US will move to Atlanta........

We all know the capital of the US is New York City. At least that's what I think.  Wink

Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineDelta7004 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 23 hours ago) and read 12071 times:

Keep in mind though that DL is the largest airline across the Atlantic as far as destinations and frequency grows. Since their aim right now seems to be on international expansion, I would be surprised to see them try to push on AA territory in Central/South America eventually, once they get the equipment to do it.

DL has a good platform to grow from. A few non-competitive international routes where they can command yield-premiums via first move advantage non-stop flights and a fleet of 764s which can be moved off domestic. If we go by assumption - 13 757s (exAA), 3-6 767-300s (moving to low-yielding northern euro routes), conversion of remaining 13 764s, 6+ 777LRs and a fleet of LatAm/Carib capable 73Gs, they have potential (given addition of 30+ int'l a/c) to increase international traffic beyond the competition in the near-term, providing all aircraft are operated on profit-positive, high-load factor flights.

Actually, only 10 757s are coming from AA, and their is a good possibility of ATL-LAX/SLC, ATL/SLC/LAX-HNL being the only domestic runs by 764s within the coming months (though the whole 764 fleet should carry Biz-E configurations, as the flights to Hawaii are long and ATL-LAX/SLC should be considered "premium" with that aircraft).

User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 8076 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (8 years 23 hours ago) and read 12071 times:

First off Happy B-day WT!  Smile

Quoting WorldTraveler (Thread starter):
Right now, AA and UA are pretty tight at the front of the pack as the largest US international carriers with AA having a slight lead so far this year.

Now then, Im not sure if DL will be ahead AA and UA in terms of largest international carriers, but they definately lead the way in terms of number of international destinations served. This is what seems to work for DL. Instead of pileing on many different flights to the same destination (like AA at LHR), DL adds one or two flights to many different destinations. In my opinion this is just as important. I honestly dont have much use for DL, but the one thing I have to tip my hat to DL for is ATL. Atlanta the city isnt anything special (even though I think its a very nice city). It doesnt have that high of an O&D to many places internationally and its not even that big a city, and yet DL makes many most (but not all) destinations work from ATL that would never work otherwise.

But in short, to me it doesnt matter if they are the biggest carrier internationally, because their strategy of offering more destinations with less frequency works very well for them!

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 2):
Oh, the capital of the US will move to Atlanta........

The capital should have been moved to Los Angeles a long time ago!!!  Big grin

It is what it is...
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6902 posts, RR: 23
Reply 8, posted (8 years 22 hours ago) and read 11984 times:

I think it's possible for DL to become the largest, though I don't think it will last. I think DL's international route structure will be much more sensitive to an economic downturn. So when that downturn comes, DL will be forced to pull back a hefty chunk of these routes. Carriers like UA and AA would also be affected by a downturn, but I don't see them being forced to pullback as much.

User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 22 hours ago) and read 11915 times:

DL is a strong carrier and is doeing very well after coming out of Ch. 9. DL is definately expanding but i doubt they could overtake UA and AA, but they could definately overtake CO. What will be interesting is in the future when we see what mergers will begin, UA and US obviously want to merge with someone, UA and DL would be great because DL would get the asia routes but the A320's would be an issue, AA and DL and even CO all put together would be great, NW UA and US could join forces. We would have star aliance angainst skyteam (NW would move to star aliance and AA would move to Skyteam). That is when it would get interesting, DL could jump ahead really fast by picking up another airline like CO and join forces.

User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 19 hours ago) and read 11704 times:

Thank you all for the good wishes.

I do think one of the biggest determinants of how international growth will play out for each of the carriers will be what they do in Latin America. Widebody and intercontinental travel will be determined to a great extent by widebody orders and conversions. But much of Latin America can be flown with narrowbody aircraft including the 757 which can easily fly from each of the southern US hubs deep into S. America. While CO may be close to maxing out the use of its 757 fleet for international flying, AA and DL are nowhere near close to doing that. AA has the advantage in that most if not all of their 757s are the 250K lb. versions while only the ex-TW 757s are for DL. However, even DL's 232K lb. versions can cover alot of northern S. America from ATL or LAX. And the 738 and 737-700 all are very versatile aircraft for AA, CO, and DL - who are most likely to benefit from Latin American growth.

Alitalia744 has listed a good summary of the challenges and opportunities each carrier faces. I would only counter on the aircraft size piece, that DL's smaller aircraft size will make it much easier for them to start new routes. The 763 still has one of the lowest aircraft TRIP costs and with winglets it is a 6000 mile airplane. The 764 is very cost effective and is actually similarly sized to a 787-8, although w/ alot less capability. The 777LR is obviously the largest aircraft coming into DL's fleet. And if DL does order some 773ERs, their average size will grow and they will be doing it with a very cost effective airplane.

The strength of DL's international growth plan is that they have the ability to do it NOW and they are taking it to every corner of the earth. DL also has LAX which has the potential for significant int'l route development while JFK still is very Europe focused and has the ability to be developed to other regions. And of course, ATL can seem to support routes to just about anywhere.

User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 15066 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (8 years 17 hours ago) and read 11555 times:

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 9):
DL is a strong carrier and is doeing very well after coming out of Ch. 9.

..I'm sure you meant Chapter 11..... Smile

"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineElmoTheHobo From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1558 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (8 years 17 hours ago) and read 11522 times:

Happy A.Nut birthday WorldTraveler!

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 2):


Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 7):
The capital should have been moved to Los Angeles a long time ago!!!  

The US capital, not the capital of Mexico!  duck 

I disagree, though. Consider that American has added very little longhaul service and is still, by and large, the biggest US carrier abroad, save United. When American gets additional aircraft for expansion, there is no doubt that this will remain the same. The same goes for United. Their massive Pacific network is flown entirely by 747s and 777s, that's a lot of seats Delta will need to catch up to.

Delta will, IMO, close in, especially when they get their additional aircraft, and they even stand a chance of bumping up against United - even with their huge Asian network. With more South American and European flights, and a handful of lfights to Asia, Delta could reasonably come close, but overtake them by the end of the decade? Not so sure.

User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3523 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (8 years 16 hours ago) and read 11479 times:

Here are the international RPMs for the largest US majors year-to-date: (000)

American: 28,163,530
United: 27,605,385
Continental: 22,815,288
Delta: 22,747,180
Northwest: 18,123,190

DL should surpass CO by the end of the year. But look at the statistics for the month of July: (000)

American: 4,610,154
United: 4,365,296
Delta: 4,277,230
Continental: 3,929,204
Northwest: 2,892,884

DL surpassed CO for the months of June and July in terms of international RPMs, and should pass them completely before the end of the year. In July, DL had just 300,000,000 RPMs less than AA internationally, and was less than 100,000,000 behind UA. That's quite impressive considering DL used to have a very small international status in comparison to the other US majors.

Could DL become the largest international US airline? Absolutely! And I think 3-5 years from now they will be. For July alone, DL across the Atlantic had over 3,000,000,000 RPMs, more than any other US airline in any region besides domestically. Impressive!


User currently offlineCslusarc From Canada, joined May 2005, 853 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 16 hours ago) and read 11459 times:

Here's the July monthly traffic data compiled (mainline only; as reported by press release):

I don't know if anybody actually compared the data. AA actually shrunk by 4 percent and was the only airline to do so. UA and DL are like neck-on-neck. However, by July 2008 I expect DL (excluding all flying by DL Connex) to eclipse AA and UA to become the #1 airline in the international segment if DL can continue to grow internationally by 10% or more per annum.


AA 4,610,154 [down 4.0%]
UA 4,365,296 [up 1.5%]
DL 4,215,861 [up 13.7%]
CO 3,929,204 [up 6.3%]
NW 2,892,884 [up 4.2%]
US/HP 1,383,547 [up 12.4%]

DL 3,022,884 [up 10.0%]
CO 2,092,000 [up 11.4%]
AA 1,965,160 [down 3.8%]
UA 1,603,682 [up 4.4%]
NW 1,138,767 [up 12.6%]
US 1,013,385 [up 21.1%]

AA 1,965,160 [down 3.8%]
CO 1,152,720 [up 1.0%]
DL 1,044,597 [up 21.4%]
UA 349,860 [down 18.1%]
US/HP 370,162 [down 6.1%]

UA 2,411,754 [up 3.3%]
NW 1,754,117 [up 0.7%]
CO 684,484 [up 0.8%]
AA 482,163 [down 24.1%]
DL 148,380 [up 51.2%]

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 13):
Delta: 4,277,230

Your number includes flights op'ed by OH and other DL Connex carriers.

--cslusarc from YWG
User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3523 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (8 years 16 hours ago) and read 11440 times:

Quoting Cslusarc (Reply 14):

Your number includes flights op'ed by OH and other DL Connex carriers.

Whoops, my mistake. The numbers are rather insignificant for OH, EV, S5, and OO internationally, as the numbers went from 4,277,230 to 4,215,861. I still shouldn't have included them though.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11496 posts, RR: 57
Reply 16, posted (8 years 15 hours ago) and read 11405 times:
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The big AA advantage is their Latin America network. Not only because of the fact that they run MIA as a hub but also because many of the countries are slot protected which means DL will be not able to challenge in size for example Brazil or Argentina operations.

But they are getting advantages on Europe and other spots, and with the huge growing levels (up to 10% p.a.) as well as the additional capacity they keep, DL will be able to become 1st in 2 or 3 years.

The question is that, this new scenario, would be so profitable ?

New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 hours ago) and read 11208 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Thread starter):
Is it possible that DL will become the USA's largest interrnational carrier before this decade is out?

Give it less than 2 years if all of the talk is true..

The 73G, 752 and 77L are going to boost that combined with as you've mentioned the 764 conversions. Freeing of the 772 from routes such as JFK that will take on the 77L to BOM. Everything will come into play starting next summer. It will be a very interesting year for Delta Air Lines, remember dont rule anything out!

In reference to American Airlines they have not been in a worse situation for years. It truly is sad, perhaps it was a fault of their for not having claimed bankruptcy. The recent labor problems combined with some rather inept decisions are leaving the airline in the cold as far as expansion is concerned. American Airlines for years has had a love affair with frequency over multiplicity.

Delta Air Lines has an advantage being that the business person headed to Milan, Seoul, Dubai, Moscow, Istanbul, Johannesburg, Kiev, and so forth can use one airline. That same person can fly throughout the country on a very dense route network. While American Airlines prefers to put almost all of their European eggs in one basket (London), Delta has made a wise decision by diversifying its product offerings. American Airlines could have made the push to build up Los Angeles but sticks with what it has and basically has added little if nothing to the Los Angeles market for the past 2-3 years.

I further think that a few of the worst decisions American Airlines made were:

*Introducing then Dropping MRTC
*Dropping service to Milan, and Stockholm
*Dropping London and Honolulu from St. Louis
*Dropping the Narita slots of San Jose and Seattle and adding nothing
*Starting Shanghai and Delhi from Chicago and not Dallas
*Starting Osaka from Dallas, Nagoya from Chicago and not Los Angeles
*Trying to rebuild San Jose
*Reno Air Merger
*TWA Merger

We cant solve all of the problems in one day, but I am happy to see Delta Air Lines think outside of the box and expand while its counterpart American Airlines expansion is only to markets already served with redundant frequencies.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Thread starter):
BTW, I'd like to welcome you to my 4th a.net BD party and this thread which marks 3000 a.net posts. While the subject evokes passion, I'm happy to share it with you, my a.net friends. The occassion is all fun! So grab something cold to drink and enjoy the party. This round is on me!

HAPPY 3000!
 birthday   bigthumbsup   birthday   bigthumbsup   birthday 


User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 hours ago) and read 11199 times:

There's one very important fact that works against DL becoming U.S. largest international airline: DL doesn't have a hub in MIA.
When it comes to have the most attractive prescence in Latinamerica and The Caribbean, having some sort of big MIA (or FLL as an alternative) opeation is a must. Look what happened when UA drop its tiny MIA hub operation, where are they now in Latinamerica? and to make matters worse, AA does have a hub in SJU (even if that one it's not of any big use for AA Latinameican operations).
There's a lot DL could accomplish from its ATL mega-hub with some flights out of JFK, LAX, CVG (!) and even SLC (!), but they would still be less popular than AA MIA fligths.
If DL wants to grow big in Latinamerica/Caribbean they would need to find a partner "south of the border" which they could count as an extra hub.

I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 hours ago) and read 11178 times:

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 18):
When it comes to have the most attractive prescence in Latinamerica and The Caribbean, having some sort of big MIA (or FLL as an alternative) opeation is a must.

It is not a must and both Continental Airlines and Delta Air Lines are proving that day in and day out. Look at the presence of Continental Airlines to Central and South America from Houston and Newark. Look at the presence of Delta Air Lines from Atlanta, and New York to Central and South America. Not to mention the Delta Air Lines buildup to Mexico and Central America from Los Angeles. An airline does not need Miami or Ft. Lauderdale to have an attractive presence in Latin America, the Caribbean, or so forth. By your measure the only airports that should have service to Asia are Los Angeles and San Francisco.

The airliners.net ideals about what airlines need to do, or what markets can and cant be served are really getting old..

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 18):
There's one very important fact that works against DL becoming U.S. largest international airline: DL doesn't have a hub in MIA

So what does that have to do with anything?

Delta Air Lines has service to Central America from Los Angeles, New York, and Atlanta
Delta Air Lines has service to South America from New York, and Atlanta

Where is it written that Delta needs to have a hub in Miami to be the largest U.S. airline?

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 18):
There's a lot DL could accomplish from its ATL mega-hub with some flights out of JFK, LAX, CVG (!) and even SLC (!), but they would still be less popular than AA MIA fligths.

What are you talking about? Delta Air Lines and Continental Airlines are both on the heels of American Airlines when it comes to service to Latin and South America. Perhaps you are confusing Delta and Continental with United Airlines whose presence in the Latin and South American market is near nothing of what it once was.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 18):
If DL wants to grow big in Latinamerica/Caribbean they would need to find a partner "south of the border" which they could count as an extra hub

They have one.. It is called Aero Mexico


User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (8 years 8 hours ago) and read 11178 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Thread starter):
NW isn't far behind DL>

I not much to strongly disagree, but NW is light years behind DL in Fleet size and boardings.....

If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 hours ago) and read 10947 times:

Quoting Cslusarc (Reply 14):

It looks like AA is losing market share all over the place, DL could definately overtake them with growth in a couple years. The only problem is the lack of DLs pacific routes, i guess they could partner with other airlines. But what will happen in 4 years for AA if nothing happens? Will they agree to be bought out or merge with DL or CO (since they are both in the same alliance they could split the needed planes and routes) but im sure it would be a while before american is done

User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 hours ago) and read 10877 times:

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 21):
It looks like AA is losing market share all over the place, DL could definately overtake them with growth in a couple years.

I think that one of the main problems with American Airlines is their lack of a clean operation. Continental Airlines is a perfect example of a clean operation. Continental operates 2 definitve hubs at EWR, CLE, and IAH. To a lessor extent GUM is a base albeit for Continental Micronesia. The only Focus City if you will is Los Angeles. Thus each hub serves a specific purpose. At American Airlines it is not that easy MIA, SJU, DFW, ORD, STL. Focus Cities are at LAX, JFK, LGA, BOS, RDU. Part of what you can see above is that American Airlines is truly trying to be everything to everyone. This same problem is what plagues United Airlines with their hubs at SFO, LAX, DEN, IAD, ORD.


User currently offlineAcey From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 1085 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 hours ago) and read 10818 times:

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 21):
DL could definately overtake them with growth in a couple years.

It's going to take longer than a couple of years, but it could happen.

If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 hours ago) and read 10791 times:

Quoting Acey (Reply 23):
It's going to take longer than a couple of years, but it could happen.

Why longer.... They are recieving 752ER, 77L, and 73G very soon.. All of which will help them surpass American Airlines..


25 FlyPNS1 : You certainly don't need to have a hub in MIA to be the largest. However, if you want to actually make a profit to Latin America that's a different s
26 LAXdude1023 : I agree with most of these as well. AA could turn DFW in to what ATL is for DL (and I think it could be just a successful), and they choose not to. T
27 MastaHanky : I think one of the wildcards for Delta is going to be Africa. There's a lot of potential there that's just being given away to AF, KL, BA and LH that
28 STT757 : I agree with the MRTC fiasco, they should have never started that. As well as the TWA merger which brought them nothing they could not have had if th
29 PSU.DTW.SCE : Thanks FlyPNS1 & STT757 for providing some balance. I now that the NW crew shortage/flight cancelations have passed, AA is rapidly becoming a.net's fa
30 WorldTraveler : Very good discussion.... do I need to give my Amex to the bartender to start round two? Yet every advantage can only carry you so far if you don't con
31 KhelmDTW : I think its how you describe "largest"." Fleet? Employees? Flights/day? All vary from airline to airline. I do know that using some category, Delta an
32 SESGDL : Who cares? Not every airline needs a hub in MIA for service to Latin America. People said ATL-Latin America wouldn't work for DL in the late 1990s an
33 Post contains images CV880 : Would it help to resurrect the PANAM logo?
34 FLYGUY767 : Average capacity on the 737-700 in a two-class configuration is: 124 Latin American at one roundtrip per day within a six month period Delta would ga
35 SSTsomeday : I would venture that the next "airline" to take the title of largest U.S. will be due to a merger of two of the top five or six, since I don't think w
36 Dutchjet : And the DL love fest continues....... Two questions: 1. Where are the airplanes to fly all of these routes coming from? There are a huge number of rou
37 Evan767 : This is long term expansion. Wait until Delta orders 787s.
38 WorldTraveler : Revenue Passenger Miles, the industry standard for measuring traffic. Precious few failures out of over 50 new routes. Including the 757s which are t
39 CV880 : I think it would be foolish for DL to establish a Latin American Hub at FLL unless there are dual IFR landings available, and longer runways. At some
40 FLYGUY767 : STT757 has already answered that question in a previous post he made: Keep in mind as is the case with Seoul and Dubai the routes are not flown daily
41 2travel2know : Whose hub isn't the best location (geographically or altitude wise) for amost all of Latinamerica and Caribbean but does have O/D. There's an airline
42 FlyPNS1 : True. So is DL operating Latin America as a prestige region? Which is probably a smart thing. While I'm sure most carriers would love to have a few m
43 Post contains images FLYGUY767 : Copa will further SkyTeams presence in Latin and South America by leaps and bounds yet Copa itself does not fly to enough US gateways to make it comp
44 Post contains images Jacobin777 : -pax in the end didn't want to pay...they should have had E+ on their B777's which would have provided a nice small revenue (like it has been doing f
45 Dutchjet : And, add the remaining 764ERs that will go international: These are following routes that ""THE Delta GANG"" says are certain to be launched in the n
46 SESGDL : No more so than AA is. Not every AA route to Latin America is profitable you know? Not likely to happen, as FLL-SDQ performed very poorly. NK's expan
47 Post contains links STT757 : It was MIA originally, then FLL. I think Alan Greenspan said it best, "Irrational exuberance" I think that says it all.
48 MastaHanky : Absolutely. I think AA would love to start a variety of routes from both JFK and MIA to Africa. It'll be interesting to watch to see who can get thei
49 WorldTraveler : no passengers think lowest fare. if a travel agent can provide it via MIA, fine. Otherwise, they'll go through Timbuktoo if that's how they have to g
50 FlyPNS1 : Depends on if we are talking long-term or short-term. If DL is making big short-term profits, only to set themselves up for long-term losses, then th
51 Incitatus : Delta has to be able to challenge established carriers in large markets. Delta's presence in London and Tokyo is minimal. Even in Paris, with a strong
52 TL8490 : This is not an issue....remember...If Delta is bypassing the hubs in Europe it is because they are flying direct from ATL and JFK....This is similar
53 2travel2know : Lost money because UA didn't commit to MIA as they should have done it. The number of UA feeding its international flights out of MIA were mediocre f
54 MAH4546 : If you use equate "failed markets" only with "discontinued routes", sure. Though we all know that Delta, unlike say American and Northwest, will stay
55 WorldTraveler : You equate a few pieces of boarding information you obtained several months ago or more as evidence that DL is failing. I'll also remind you that pro
56 MAH4546 : I never said failing, but those market's aren't performing to what Delta would like, which is the truth, and not "outdated". It's no surprise you ref
57 Post contains images FLYGUY767 : This one just makes me laugh beyond a point of no return .. Here we go again.. What do you mean that JFK has grown in association with the abandonment
58 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Er...isn't that what I'm saying? Of the legacy carriers, it was only UA, NW and DL....NW entered the same day and basically exited the same time as D
59 Thering : I think they will have some problems by conciliating their 767 fleet and expansion..... If in one hand they will need more a/c fore the expansion, som
60 Kanebear : That'd also be consistent with CO's product to HNL which is treated as 'intl premium' even though it's domestic. NW has a hub in Tokyo. That makes it
61 FlyMIA : Well it is possible that Delta could over take American with all their expansion in Europe and Asia. But there is no way DL could overtake AA in South
62 FLYGUY767 : Delta Air Lines offers: JFK-GRU daily 767-300 ATL-GRU daily 767-300 ATL-GIG daily 767-300 American Airlines does not fly ORD-GRU, that route is flown
63 Alitalia744 : I'm a betting man also and will raise you on the following routes added within a year (Lets say by EOY 2008?) I'm gonna hold off on the LAX stuff for
64 Kanebear : Not sure where I got the idea AA did South America out of ORD. They have *no* flights to deep SoAm from Chicago. It's JFK to EZE and GRU (with GIG as
65 MasseyBrown : Operating profit isn't the bottom line, though; net profit is. Delta's op. profit was $365 million and net was $164 million; AA's (actually AMR's) op
66 NewYorkCityBoi : well said!... no matter the capital of the US is... the "real" capital is New York City and the "real" "international" airport is JFK
67 Thering : Actually, starting in jan/08 they will have: JFK-GRU as you said ATL-GRU 9x weekly facing previous 13x weekly ATL-GIG 9x weekly facing previus 7x wee
68 Post contains links Jetlanta : Huh? Where exactly are you getting your numbers? Because they look nothing like these: ATLANTA, July 18, 2007 – Delta Air Lines (NYSE:DAL) reported
69 Bobnwa : What happened to your claim that NW wa "ashamed" to announce their second quarter earnings. When NW did announce, their net profit was virtually the
70 Post contains links MasseyBrown : I got my numbers from the 10-Q report that Delta filed with the SEC. Here: http://edgar.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/.../000118811207002341/t60111_10q.htm
71 SESGDL : And how many did AA layoff? 30,000+ is it? And UA, 35,000? And DL will do fine too in Asia. The Asian market is much higher yielding than Europe is,
72 Jetlanta : Actually, the discrepancy was fully explained in the quarterly conference call with Wall Street. "Fresh Start" accounting makes comparisons between t
73 MAH4546 : Just to note that is only for about an eight week period. INAC will only grant these beyond-bilateral exceptions for the peak travel months in Decemb
74 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ....that wasn't the point...we already know AA employees have bad labour relations with management..my point was about this whole DL "rah-rah-rah" th
75 Post contains images MasseyBrown : Another way to say this is that the SEC numbers are correct and conform to GAAP and the Delta numbers are bull with an artful explanation. Not that t
76 Jetlanta : Delta announced results on July 18th. DL stock closed at $21.19 on the 17th, $21.37 on the 18th and $21.51 on the 19th. The entire industry began to
77 EXAAUADL : Largest carrier as in what? PAX. RPMs, ASMs Remember that DL's international growth was as a result of the airline having too many widebodies in the d
78 MasseyBrown : DAL opened at 21.79 on the 18th, rose to 21.80 prior to the conf. call and (while matching 21.80 briefly on the 19th) it's been downhill ever since.
79 Dutchjet : Delta stock had another terrible day on the stock market, its shares were down nearly 4% in an otherwise strong market. Contintental shares were up a
80 Panamair : Delta's stock performance is still in flux because not all of the 400 million shares have been issued. They recently released another chunk to credito
81 777STL : Well, if you're going to compare DL's international route network to AA's, you'd be remissed not to mention Latin America. Impressive! DL's operation
82 Kanebear : You made the assertion initially, not I. AA can and does pull off routes to Latin America (DFW-LIM, for one). Is every last route making money? Perha
83 MAH4546 : You mean from the US? Not normally. Three examples: Houston-Lagos via Miami is 6596mi, while via London it is 7934mi. Los Angeles-Dakar via Miami is
84 Kanebear : Duh, I was looking at things as a nonstop MIA-CPT. AA has nothing in the fleet that'll do that which would necessitate a stop somewhere. You are, of
85 Jacobin777 : ....before making smart-alec comments such as "duh", you should get your facts straight....AA's ORD-DEL is only 160nm less than MIA-CPT....and ORD-DE
86 Post contains images 2travel2know : Isn't an ETOPS issue on the MIA-South Africa non-stop route? anyhow, MIA-CPT/JNB could be flown via REC too. Mind you, MIA-LAD non-stop would make so
87 WorldTraveler : A month later on an 18 month base is not "basically the same time". If you think it is, I don't want you quoting any numerical facts to me. No, actua
88 Kanebear : If you read a bit more carefully you'll see where my 'duh' was self-referential. E.G. I was admitting an error. Apologies if the verbiage offended. S
89 FLYGUY767 : Delta is due to receive: 10 737-700 10 757-200ER(They have already started receiving them) 6 777-200LR (2 more are rumored to be ordered) In addition
90 Fewsolarge : WT, congrats on your milestone! Keep up the great posts.
91 Post contains images Kanebear : It's not? According to whom? Among which purchasers? Ma and paw kettle going from OMA to MSP? Any savvy traveller I know who needs to get places abso
92 Evan767 : ...If Delta were to become the USA's largest airline, wouldn't that make then the world's largest international airline? Correct me if I'm wrong.
93 Papatango : The actual number of 757-200 etops aircraft is 13.
94 777STL : AA's 772 fleet has an incredibly low utiliization percentage. I know for a fact there's always at least one spare at LHR, and possibly one at NRT as
95 WorldTraveler : It has been suggested several times that AA's 777 fleet is not capable of 180 minute ETOPS. I've asked for clarification and have not received it. Is
96 MAH4546 : Of course they do. There are always two spare 777s, usually parked at Heathrow and Miami. The real reason that AA is so short on 777 capacity is beca
97 WorldTraveler : But any airline can have spare aircraft... and most international carriers must have some spare aircraft or they would never be able to maintain their
98 777STL : What exactly is the point you're trying to make? This is true for every airline, no airline has the kind of redundancy that you're trying to fault AA
99 WorldTraveler : I am saying that AA like any airline doesn't maintain spares except in a couple of their largest cities. A particular poster above said they would no
100 Thering : What does this mean?
101 Kanebear : The 777 had ETOPS 180 approval at EIS back in 1995. I keep seeing declarative statements. I ask for sources. I keep hearing vague references to resea
102 WorldTraveler : I don't believe I called AA/One World pathetic anywhere... source? So is NRT but they are the most well developed hubs in Asia. Not all traffic flows
103 MAH4546 : The have 180ETOPS. They can barely make MIA-CPT, but not without cargo restrictions. MIA-CPT is all VFR traffic though, AA wants MIA-JNB, and a 772 c
104 Kanebear : Apologies, that was SESGDL, not you. All that argument and the first driver you mention is exactly what I've been talking about.Thank you for proving
105 MasseyBrown : The Delta numbers I cited were post-bankruptcy. No unsupported assertions; show the numbers, please. All the network carriers' June 30 10Q's except f
106 Kanebear : Bravo to KE for making LAS work. SQ and JL both tried and failed. If I stated ICN was a bad hub I went too far. My main thrust was in pointing out th
107 Evan767 : It means that current domestic configured 763s flying routes such as ATL-LAX will be reconfigured with Business Elite and put on short international
108 MAH4546 : I believe the only Asian airline with as extensive a global network as Korean Airlines is Singapore Airlines.
109 SESGDL : Huh? DL competes on too many routes to count. DL can't compete with other airlines, yet they've been an airline since the 1920s? That was done from A
110 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..apologies then mate..that's not how it sounded while reading it..so I'll correct myself....but as I stated above, it should still be able to make i
111 DL777LAX : And US compared to AA and DL is even more pathetic in Asia. At least you can book a flight on AA/DL metal to Asia. Don't forget about CO Micronesia.
112 MAH4546 : Small correction: Northwest flies daily to Mumbai, while AA does not fly to Tel Aviv.
113 DL777LAX : I guess I forgot to mention the nonstop part. anyway. The point still stands.
114 Post contains images DAL767400ER : Daily NRT, 5x weekly ICN, 4x DXB, daily TLV from ATL (and hopefully soon PEK); daily BOM and soon daily TLV from JFK. Not massive, but certainly not
115 Bobnwa : Maybe a few people were surprised, but you were the only one who said NWA was "ashamed" to announce their earnings. Very juvenile remark to make on y
116 FLYGUY767 : That depend on what measure you judge that by.. Malaysia Airlines is one of the largest airlines in Asia with one of the most in-depth route networks
117 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..yet they recently had to file for bankruptcy... ...that would be quite interesting....is the traffic there for LOS-JNB? Would AA have 5th freedom r
118 2travel2know : For AA out of MIA, REC instead of LOS enroute to JNB may be more attractive and even suitable for a B767. As for arguments against MIA-CPT, I may be
119 FLYGUY767 : What traffic is their from REC-JNB? I would give the money to LOS & JNB, both are financial capitols for Africa.. That would be a toss up between Cap
120 Dutchjet : I know that you really like the idea of a North America to Africa flight routed via South America (we have discussed this before), I dont think that
121 FLYGUY767 : It depends what market or audience you are talking to.. Perhaps to Americans, the few that do visit South Africa, indeed they would opt for Cape Town
122 Dutchjet : I have been to Dubran.........and live in Europe a good part of the year. And, most Europeans going on vacation to South Africa are headed to Capetow
123 MAH4546 : That is the most commonly spoken about routing but, as always, the folks in Miami (at AA's Latin/Caribbean offices, which will be in charge of any fu
124 NW748i : 'Back in the game?" Are they really doing so badly that they are now "out of the game?" Very much to their credit... Looks like the 'love fest' segme
125 DALelite : They are shurely on their way!!! Go DELTA Go!!! cheers: DALelite
126 WorldTraveler : quote=Kanebear,reply=104]All that argument and the first driver you mention is exactly what I've been talking about.Thank you for proving my point.[/q
127 MAH4546 : Hard to believe considering they only have four daily trans-Pacific flights compared to AA's seven. That figure probably includes Guam operations. Th
128 777STL : I disagree. AA is doing exactly what they need to be doing. Biding their time while getting their balance sheet back in order. You make it out as if
129 Panamair : How so? I'm not bashing AA here and there were certainly other airlines that reported better margins than DL; however AA wasn't one of them.
130 WorldTraveler : because the measurement is RPMs... CO's EWR hub is farther from Asia. then perhaps you'll tell us what AA's plans are to close the gap. but no one el
131 LAXdude1023 : AA and DL just have different styles. AA is by far the most conservative of the airlines in terms of growth while DL is probably the most progressive
132 Boeing743 : I am sure that DL would be probably become a better airline and strong one in US after they come out of bankrupt. I know that DL has been changed a lo
133 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...I would say conservative..and their management/employee relationship isn't helping their cause.....but at least AA is paying down substantial debt
134 MAH4546 : I don't know what they will do, but don't for a minute think AA is going to do nothing. Two years ago you would have never guessed Delta would be doi
135 Jetlanta : This actually brings up a point about AMR that I think most people have never really understood. One of the major reasons that AMR avoided bankruptcy
136 777STL : Every airline has a unique growth strategy. Just because AA isn't expanding at the rate that DL is, doesn't mean that's detrimental to AA. You don't
137 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..interesting point of view.. ...but I'm not so sure if DL closing DFW as a hub really saved AA from Chapter 11..it was the fact AArpey was able to m
138 WorldTraveler : I'm not condeming what AA is doing or that their approach is wrong. The topic here is whether DL might become the USA's largest international carrier
139 MAH4546 : It really isn't a question of CO "letting" AA do anything. Like I've said, AA is in the best position for a major new aircraft order, and while I don
140 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...bwahaha..this is getting a bit petty..it's about coming out of bankruptcy..nothing more... ....apropos..if anything, the argument wouldn't' be in
141 FlyPNS1 : But if that's all this topic is about, then so what? Being the biggest doesn't really mean much and historically, the biggest carriers usually fall t
142 STT757 : CO has five trans-Pacific flights, EWR- HKG, NRT, PEK IAH- NRT HNL- NGO
143 MAH4546 : I didn't count HNL-NGO as it doesn't cross one side to the other, but point taken. I assume it would be counted in those figures.
144 Jetlanta : I clearly wasn't claiming it was the only factor. However, without the stronger revenue environment at DFW, AA would have ended up in Chapter 11 rega
145 SESGDL : Please. Why will DL's potential for growth be any worse than AA two years from now? And basing everything on now is quite important in business, as i
146 Jetlanta : Exactly how is Delta "expanding"? Sure there are a few airplanes on order over the next few years, but you know as well as I do that Delta is realloc
147 MAH4546 : How? Easily. Delta has already implemented the majority of their international growth. Unless you drink the Delta Koolaid, which you clearly do, and
148 Jetlanta : Where is AA going to get international-capable aircraft in two years??? And why in the world don't you think Delta will be placing a similar order ov
149 MAH4546 : I clearly said I don't expect any AA international growth to start for another two years. Delta will clearly, clearly grow more within the next two y
150 SESGDL : I NEVER make comments like that. All I do is simply defend Delta. They are easily the airline most hated on Airliners.net and I find it ridiculous. F
151 LAXdude1023 : Since this thread was started to be a DL lovefest I have to point this out. The people on a.net (who do hate DL) dont hate DL for no reason and its d
152 Dutchjet : I gotta ask: 30 new deliveries for international aircraft.......where? how? 10 or 13 ex-TW/AA 752s. 6 777-200LRs? You cant be seriously counting the
153 777STL : Oh bullshit! Easily the most hated airline? Not a chance. I like Delta, I do. I'd love to fly them Australia. But I get rather tired of these DL "lov
154 Post contains images UAL777UK :
155 Post contains images FlyPNS1 : But their growth (along with NK's) has come mostly from that new growth. Otherwise, they'd have to be stealing from some of AA's existing customer ba
156 FLYGUY767 : Please inform those of us on this forum what routes Delta Air Lines has recently started, or that Delta Air Lines is planning to start that are obscu
157 Jetlanta : The 73G's are fully capable of replacing 757 and 738 aircraft in certain international markets, which allows those aircraft to do other things, which
158 Isitsafenow : And I thought Mesaba was the only one who pulled that. Many times at DTW Pax would be waiting to board and just at boarding or minutes before the sch
159 MasseyBrown : How can we have a debate if you expect me to defend YOUR argument?
160 NW748i : Even more than that. I attended a presentation by UA's Managing Director, Alliances & International Affairs and he specifically mentioned the one-of-
161 FLYGUY767 : Let me address the above posting. The JFK-ARN route was operated for years. As was American Airlines ORD-ARN service as well. So would you at the sam
162 Post contains images Jacobin777 : I feel special I'm being one of the one's being singled out here .....at least I'm a little and getting a good debate.... ...you can't deny that isn'
163 MasseyBrown : North American Airlines would dispute that.
164 Post contains links FLYGUY767 : Sorry, that is a bit hypocritical.. First you say that ORD-NGO was profitable, then you say that route was pulled for other more profitable routes..
165 Post contains images LAXdude1023 : Haha, I much agree. Sometimes the airlines say things that just have to be decoded. This was probably AA's way of saying "DFW-LIM isnt making any mon
166 FLYGUY767 : I am going to get flamed for this ... I still laugh at the excuse that Northwest Airlines gave for not being able to stay in the JFK-NRT game. You cu
167 FlyPNS1 : And what you say exactly supports my point that relying on marginal and volatile international routes can be a tough path. Depending on what type of
168 Jetlanta : OK, I'm going to say something here that I probably shouldn't. I know that this is an open forum. And I appreciate differences of opinion and a good b
169 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..ey? If anything, the first link proved my point.....it wasn't making a lot of money and the B777's were needed to routes which generate better resu
170 Bobnwa : The reason that NWA gave for stopping JFK-NRT, was they were losing money on it. What do you find funny about that? I guess I don't get your point.
171 Post contains images Panamair : Congrats on the best post on a.net in a long, long, long time...probably the best one since I've been around these parts..
172 Post contains images LAXdude1023 : Its that LA-Bay Area, Westside Connection!!!! DL's strategy is paying off now. They are poised for great success. They might have to slow the expansi
173 Jetlanta : How do you "know" that they could be a disaster? You don't, really, you are assuming. The fact is that domestic leisure travel is more vulnerable to
174 MrLurker : Hello everyone. Well, all I can say is that this thread has been the one that finally pushed me to spend my $25 and join a.net just so I can make a po
175 FLYGUY767 : *American Airlines played the game to Nagoya and lost! *American Airlines played the game to Stockholm and lost! What is your point? Why would you si
176 Airbazar : I've never been to ATL, but it can't be worse than MIA which is an absolute dump. I can't possibly see why anyone would chose to change planes in MIA
177 Bobnwa : What people were saying that? No one at Northwest was saying that, which you claimed in your original post. Don't confuse the ramblings on this board
178 FLYGUY767 : Not at all. It has been discussed at length on here and other places that one of the first routes for the 787 will be JFK-NRT. However saying somethi
179 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..its one of the few things NoCal and SoCal have agreed on.. ..you keep on posting this....what was lost? Net income? Revenues? A nonstop flight from
180 Dutchjet : Well, let me thank you for saying what you said. Honest, to the point and realistic. Thank you, Mr Lurker, for making a very accurate analysis and re
181 Post contains links and images FLYGUY767 : Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 179): ..you keep on posting this....what was lost? Net income? Revenues? A nonstop flight from ORD? The opportunity to make
182 Jetlanta : Case in point of my earlier post. Please validate any of what you say above. There is no credible, factual evidence of either of your points. The fir
183 Bobnwa : If JFK-NRT with a 787 isn't funny because it will make money, why is it funny to drop a 747 because it was losing money. I am just trying to get to t
184 DL777LAX : The market dynamics in Los Angeles is similar to New York. If DL could make a large hub out of JFK work out of a metro area with large international
185 Post contains images Jacobin777 : SJC loss was independent.... I've heard the same thing about the Toyota exec. also.... However, AA pulling ORD-NGO had nothing to do with being impat
186 SESGDL : All two or three people in the "gang?" If a downturn occurs you're going to see lots of routes cut by all airlines, not just DL. Some of their new ro
187 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Just because you believe its "childish" doesn't mean it is.. ..and it does to a certain extent....its allowed them to decrease CASM, cost structure,
188 Post contains images FLYGUY767 : The 747-400 is to much of a plane for the route. The New York market is a very temperamental market. Northwest Airlines was going up against another
189 Dutchjet : Is this thread what you had in mind for your ""4 year/3000 post" birthday celebration? At the outset, I thought that you came up with a very nice ide
190 Post contains images Panamair : You should know by now that WT thrives on controversey...
191 Bobnwa : You missed the whole point of what I was asking. Why did you say you thought the excuse Northwest gave it was funny? That is my question. Also are yo
192 Post contains links FLYGUY767 : I did not at anytime say that Delta has better connecting options at JFK than Northwest Airlines at NRT. What I did say is that the JFK market for No
193 Bucky707 : He meay thrive on controversy, but I have found him to be right on the money more often than not.
194 Bobnwa : There was just one reason given by Northwest. Again, don't confuse the ramblings on this board as fact. You did that on this occasion.
195 Jetlanta : Again, no credible, factual evidence. How long did LAX-TIJ last? Seriously, Delta has canceled dozens and dozens or markets over the past few years.
196 777STL : ATL-PRG, ATL-JNB, ATL-ICN, a few in Western Europe that I can't recall off the top of my head. And? Great, they're thinking outside of the box. That
197 WorldTraveler : I must say that I am surprised that not only is this thread creating as much passion as it is but it is getting more passionate by the minute. I post
198 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..1)stop shouting please... ...2) that's not what my chart was about..it was about which carrier came out of bankruptcy later..I thought I had made e
199 Post contains images Kanebear : Not having hubs in Asia might be a good reason for this. Bring on the 787 and let's see how point to point transpac routes do. Not if they don't want
200 Jetlanta : The problem here is that your opinion here is irrelevant. The fact is that Delta carried over 9 million passengers on oer 250 daily departures from D
201 WorldTraveler : the dates of exit were never disputed. since you want to challenge my facts, I'll challenge yours. Give me a published source showing that 5.5% is st
202 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : ..friend, I keep on saying "with this particular situation"..... ..and are you SURE you want 5.5% of my salary? ..... ....but silliness aside, I did
203 SESGDL : And those are obscure how? ATL-PRG and ATL-ICN are connecting two SkyTeam hubs, which makes perfect sense. Where's this proof? Again, no one knows wh
204 Post contains images DAL767400ER : ATL-PRG/ICN are routes between 2 Skyteam hubs, nothing obscure about them. ATL-JNB, DL gained years and years of info on pax numbers and yields on th
205 Commavia : Respectufully, that is just absolutely, patently false. Delta's pullout from DFW had a marginal -- at most -- impact on AMR's ability to stave off ba
206 DeltaL1011man : i think it could happen with 6 77Ls plus 2(a.net rumor) and 10 options along with the 13 752ETOPS and the 125 787s we where told about at Paris (www.m
207 DAL767400ER : Which is still not much more than a never-dying rumor. Will Delta order 787s? Most definitely. Will they order 125 of them? Sure as hell not. So far,
208 UAL777UK : That may be true in some sense, but two financial powerhouse cities like NY and LON, require frequency and thats what AA and BA for that matter offer
209 Bobnwa : Do you mean like saying that Northwest was "ashamed" to release its 2nd quarter earnings? A lot of FACTS and ANALYSIS went into that adolescent state
210 B752OS : ATL is a very easy airport to get around. It kind of has to be, considering that well more than 60% of the people who travel through it are connectin
211 DeltaL1011man : hints why i put a link that old Jim said himself in Paris that they will order 125 787s buy the end of the year joking man but if UA or US start to t
212 Airbazar : You said lots of good things but I have to disagree with this statement. ATL is the absolute worst hub location to serve Europe and i strongly believ
213 B752OS : Well that and the fact that JFK has a great deal more European demand. ATL is not even in the top 5 for pax to Europe. I agree that ATL is not exactl
214 Jetlanta : I guess I'd make the point that March 2003 wasn't the one moment that AMR could have gone broke. They avoided Chapter 11 at that point due to their l
215 FLYGUY767 : Prague is a SkyTeam Hub Johannesburg is a World Financial Center Seoul is a SkyTeam Hub What is obscure about any of the three? Is it because those r
216 Jetlanta : Umm, I'm not sure how you managed that, but that above statement is not a quote from me. Please recheck Reply 200 if you want to see what I said.
217 SESGDL : What a joke. How then did ATL become the largest Trans-Atlantic hub for a US airline? ATL is a great location and works together quite well with DL's
218 FLYGUY767 : A.net hiccup... Has been happening a lot lately... -JD
219 777STL : What does St. Louis have to do with anything in the course of this thread? Let me ask you this, if those are such powerhouse routes like you claim, w
220 Panamair : Umm, ICN is in South Korea. Both UA and NW also serve South Korea. Umm, then why is AA also looking at South Africa, the country in which the "worthl
221 FLYGUY767 : Because Delta Air Lines sees that there is a demand for international nonstop service to certain markets. Delta Air Lines has also researched the rou
222 Commavia : No, it is true that had another 9/11 struck in winter 2003, or fall 2004, or at any point in the last few years, AMR might well have been pushed to t
223 BAW716 : As much as I like Delta, they will not overtake AA and UA until they have a significant presence in the Pacific. This is the one market in which they
224 777STL : And we've yet to see if they can remain viable over the long run....that's been my point this entire thread. Coming from a DL fanboy, that's quite ir
225 Post contains images WorldTraveler : quote=Jacobin777,reply=202]..and are you SURE you want 5.5% of my salary?[/quote] thank you for the explanation.... even if we disagree, you have gone
226 PSU.DTW.SCE : FLYGUY767- I still stand by my post that you quoted regarding NW ending JFK-NRT. I am stating, in more detailed terms, the route was losing money. At
227 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..you're welcome.. ....I guess you got me on the Coke spending money.... So I'm sorry, I'll have to turn you down on giving you 5.5% of my salary....
228 SESGDL : I'm sorry, but if you believe that then you are a moron. It's almost like you're arguing just to argue. PRG may be worthless for connections outside
229 Post contains images SESGDL : Because you're SOOO intelligent, pointing out all of these "obscure" destinations, shall we look at CO. From EWR: LIS BFS GLA GVA BRS CGN HAM OSL ARN
230 Bobnwa : They are already the 4th largest closing in on number three.
231 AirCanada014 : I personally don't think DL will be the largest USA international airline.. i know they are expanding but some of the routes are not proving and they
232 Post contains images MasseyBrown : AirCanada014, welcome to my respected user list. Your post is total BS, but it will drive the Deltoids crazy.
233 Worldtraveler : which goes to show that some people are far less interested in facts than illiciting a negative response regardless of the untruths what is said. You
234 FLYGUY767 : Delta Air Lines pulling the plug on DFW helped American Airlines grown its DFW hub an additional percentage points, thus increasing a market share. I
235 B752OS : Of course PRG is not worthless. If it were, DL could NEVER make a non-stop ATL-PRG flight work. That flight depends on connecting pax on both ends. F
236 FLYGUY767 : It happens daily whether it makes sense or does not.. -JD
237 Post contains images Jetlanta : Isn't it time for this thread to be put out our misery?
238 Dutchjet : Ask WT, this was his party.
239 Viscount724 : Have you looked at a map? How do you backtrack from PRG to Eastern Europe? The Czech Republic is the most westerly country in Eastern Europe and PRG
240 WorldTraveler : not yet. I have news for you. Airlines fly to make money not create lots of spotting opportunities. DL does it from ATL, other carriers do it from oth
241 Dutchjet : May we see some numbers concerning CO and UA? And, DL makes money everywhere, to every region to which it flies........inclusive of newly launched ro
242 WorldTraveler : the data is available from the DOT and is reported in Aviation Daily on a regular basis. 1Q07 data was reported in Aviation Daily throughout the month
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