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Damn Poor Pilots!  
User currently offlineBlueSkys From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6487 times:

Now... I writing this as a commercial (just recived very recently) pilot with just over 250 hours which is really nothing. I am not a pilot for profit nor will i ever be for any airline. The reason why is that us pilots are taken advantage of because we actually LOVE our job.

I know guys that have over 1500 hours and cant get a good job any where at the age of close to 30 or older and have been doing this since an early age. They have all the qualifications but there is just not enough jobs! The problem with pilots is that they are willing to work for PEANUTS just to get the oppertunity to fly!

After seeing many a man take crappy job after crappy job just to support their family and try to make a living in the industry i made a desicion that i will not persue it anymore and make my money elsewhere. Now i make a good living and I am hoping to buy my own airplanes some day soon but i feel very sorry for they MANY men and women that cannot get anywhere in the industry no matter how hard they try.

Will this ever change? Airlines used to recruit pilots, now they just pick and choose, and becoming a professional pilot that can make a GOOD living (over $100,000) before the old age of 40 + is very difficult...

Will the industry ever come to appreciate the proffessionals of dedicated men and women that dedicated their own lives to a passion that has become a gamble to make a decent living with?

I have just seen so many young men and women that have invested many thousands of dollars of hard earned money that most likely will never be paid back by the industry..


I know this sounds like a rant but i feel sorry for so many people that have never had a chanve to reach their goals in life due to the circumstances of the industry.

41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3217 posts, RR: 16
Reply 1, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6417 times:

Interesting choice of title.......

Pay will go up again eventually, probably never back to what it used to be though. Before 9/11, a NWA 747-400 captain made $272/hr. Now, according to (www.airlinepilotcentral.com) they make $177/hr. At UA, a 747-400 captain makes $184/hr, where they used to make just slightly over $300/hr

Of course, pilots are some of the highest paid wage-employees in the world, but when you're limited to 1000 hours per year, it isn't all that much compared what it could/should be.


User currently offlineType-Rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6390 times:

And let's not forget the endless hours pilots spend doing going to and from the airport, flight prep, preflights, airport ground holds, and other delays that add time to the job, all while not being paid!

User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4786 posts, RR: 19
Reply 3, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6375 times:

Well, its always been this way Blue Skys.

It's a hell of a tough business to break into at the highest levels, granted we are in a down cycle at the moment but that will change again as well.

I understand your declining to pursue it any further but I think thats a shame if being a professional pilot is, or was you goal.

Relentless determination and persistence will get you there you know.

I think giving up at 250 hours total time is extremely premature.

Your learning has just begun at that point.



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6179 times:

Pay scales will always go up and down, right now the fuel prices are killing airlines, when something like hydrogen becomes available for planes we could see airlines making a ton of money with cheap fuel and the unions wont let the airlines forget that they need more money, we need to see the US govt pull their heads out of the sand and find new fuels, and Boeing should begin investigations on how to convert current planes to accept fuels like hydrogen along with general electric and rolls Royce, when fuel becomes cheap (and it will someday) airlines will make more money so pilots will also male more

User currently offlineSergioAEE From Greece, joined Jun 2006, 45 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6072 times:

This is a very narrow topic and one must ALWAYS think of both sides when some other pilot tells them that they can't find a job. I know pilots with many hours, and good experience who fly for close to nothing and for a hopeless airline, and I also know pilots who have 500 hours, and fly for some really good European or US carriers. I've also heard from many pilots saying "god i cant find a job anywhere" and at the say period of time I hear others saying "i didnt think it would be that easy". Some pilots limit their options. Not wanting to leave your home country is always a problem. I dont have much knowledge of the industry in the US because I live in Europe, but I can tell you that in EU right now, things are looking good for pilots.

However, if you are a young pilot you cannot expect to get hired by a traditional carrier and start flying big aircraft for big money... you always gotta start somewhere  Smile
My point is: Listen to what other pilots say, but every pilot has their own little story... dont generalise  Smile

SergioAEE


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5478 posts, RR: 31
Reply 6, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5958 times:

It seems forever, pilots at the beginning of their career have made crap wages...in N.America. Overseas, the prospects are much brighter. Look at all the expansion taking place, especially in Asia and the M.E.

If a pilot is willing to relocate across the world, the sky's the limit.



What the...?
User currently offlineDazbo5 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 2934 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5920 times:

That's life I'm afraid. This isn't exclusive to the airline industry, it's pretty much in all walks of life. The main difference being the cost in timeframe of training, but there are comparable jobs out there. I've hit the ceiling in my carear path after only 9 years in post. When I say hit the ceiling, I don't meen I've progressed to the very top, I mean within the company I work for and there is no prospect of extra earnings. I either put up with it, change jobs to progress in the company or go elsewhere. Same with the airline industry. That's the current market place so if that's your choice of career and what you love / want to do, you make your choice.

Darren



Equipment: 2x Canon EOS 50D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
User currently offlineSergioAEE From Greece, joined Jun 2006, 45 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5747 times:

Id love to hear opinions from pilots on this forum! I mean some LCC's in europe have had hiring statusses for years and years running now, and give pretty good wages, and pilots in these airlines can become captain relatively fast.

I guess it really does depend on the situation

SergioAEE


User currently offlineORDFan From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 378 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5039 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 6):
It seems forever, pilots at the beginning of their career have made crap wages...in N.America. Overseas, the prospects are much brighter. Look at all the expansion taking place, especially in Asia and the M.E.

If a pilot is willing to relocate across the world, the sky's the limit.

Exactly. Remember the thread about the EK pilot shortage. There are lots of airlines around the world that are very eager to recruit bright, qualified Western pilots. These pilots can hop into the latest and greatest widebodys, without having to wait half a lifetime like those flying for the legacies. And they can earn a damn good living, too, even in the junior ranks.

It's a matter of supply and demand. Northwest is complaining of a pilot shortage, and now so are UA. The more these airlines will need pilots, the more they will raise wages to attract new pilots until there is some sort of equilibrium. I am actually shocked that more Western pilots are not as "mobile" a labor force as engineers, businessmen, and other types of professionals. If I were a young pilot or trainee today, I would definitely set my sights on flying for an overseas carrier. To think of all the awesome airports recently built, being built, or planned in the M.E. or Asia, how can one not be excited by the prospect of flying there??


User currently offlineBoeingluvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4930 times:

Well there are new oppertunities now there never used to be. My school and a lot of my friends is actually a pilot sponsorship which will allow me to have my license done in two years with 250 hrs and training on most likely a 757 or 737 and an airline job as well... The industry is always changing and new things are coming out. These sponsorships are big in Europe especially the UK but now it is my understanding that they are moving to Canada. AC is experimenting with taking students with similar hrs out of a diploma program.

My starting wage will depend on which airline i get with but typically start at anywhere between 27000 and 33000 pounds a year, roughly 60-70000 dollars a year as an fo with 250-300 hrs. Then it moves up from there. There's lots of avenues to look to!


User currently offlineBlueskies8 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4868 times:

The airline industry is definately not what it used to be whereas the fractional, corporate and charter market has become quite lucrative. This commercial aviation industry is very cyclic and with the current number of student pilots still very low or on the decline there will be a shortage of pilots again in the near future. Many of the major U.S. airlines are going to retire nearly half of there workforce in the next 10 years leaving a huge void. Pilots will flock to the airlines and the business aviation sector will be looking for more pilots, although the business aviation sector seems to always be looking for pilots. It is up to us pilots not to settle for less than we're worth and when the industry needs pilots we need to make sure that we are compensated appropriately as professionals. There is light at the end of the tunnel and if you truly love flying then you should stick with it because it's not only the citizens and the economy that need you but we as fellow pilots need you.

User currently offlinePlanespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3541 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4810 times:

Quoting BlueSkys (Thread starter):
After seeing many a man take crappy job after crappy job just to support their family and try to make a living in the industry i made a desicion that i will not persue it anymore and make my money elsewhere. Now i make a good living and I am hoping to buy my own airplanes some day soon but i feel very sorry for they MANY men and women that cannot get anywhere in the industry no matter how hard they try.

I made the same decision about three years ago. It's worked out pretty well for me so far - I went to graduate school, met a girl I'll likely be marrying in the next year or two, got a damned good job in a city I've wanted to live in forever with a company that treats me very well and pays me what I'm worth.

Does that mean I don't regret not pursuing an airline job? Of course not - I half-regret it every time I look up and see an RJ departing or approaching to land at ORD, knowing that if I would have chosen to stick with it back in 2004 when I made the decision, that could very well be me up there.

But then I think about my salary, and how if I were at a regional I would have to be a Captain before I would be making as much as I do now, and about the girl I met going to graduate school, and about all the really great times I had not doing the airline thing. But...still, there's a slight emptiness...and I get a lil sad whenever my airline buddies come around to stay with me if they want to come to Chicago, but it's fun to hear their stories and chat with them, and I can still fly many airplanes and some day I'll be able to buy my own airplane (maybe!).

But I still think about it...and it's likely that one day I will jump headlong back into the airline game (I was in it once, serving an internship with Southwest), but for right now - I'm fairly happy with the present, and things are going pretty well for me (not entirely on my own account - I've had plenty of luck along the way).

And that's just fine I think.



Do you like movies about gladiators?
User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5164 posts, RR: 43
Reply 13, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4382 times:

Right now, Air Canada is hiring pilots at a maximum rate the training centre will allow. 16 pilots every 14 days. This will continue into the foreseeable future, as long as retirement age is 60.

As a result, if you so desire, one can be an EMJ Captain within 18 to 24 months of being hired. The lowest paid EMJ Captain at AC makes over $100,000 / yr. Not a bad wage. Not the greatest, but with seniority, it gets better.

About 25% of Air Canada's new hire pilots are less than 30 years old.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offline727forever From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 794 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4309 times:

Quoting Boeingluvr (Reply 10):
Well there are new oppertunities now there never used to be. My school and a lot of my friends is actually a pilot sponsorship which will allow me to have my license done in two years with 250 hrs and training on most likely a 757 or 737 and an airline job as well... The industry is always changing and new things are coming out. These sponsorships are big in Europe especially the UK but now it is my understanding that they are moving to Canada. AC is experimenting with taking students with similar hrs out of a diploma program.

Ah yes, the MPL program. This is an interesting development indeed. Zero time to the cockpit with 240 hours of sim training and ten hours in an airplane. Have fun talking on the radio because that's about all the Captains will be letting you do as an MPL pilot.


The industry does suck. I agree with the statements of most above. You have to love what you do to stick to it long enough to make it to the top. I've been in over 10 years, have been furloughed once, been through a Chapter 7 (liquidation) bankrupsy, and am once again back on year one pay. I'm hoping to be able to make my mortgage payment, car payment, crashpad payment, and keep my credit card bills down while making maybe make $45,000 this year. I knew what I was getting into. I'm not happy about it but I am keeping my nose to the grind and I will start gaining ground again at some point. That's the business. If you can't handle it, stay out.

727forever



727forever
User currently offlineScrumpy492003 From Canada, joined Jul 2007, 170 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4257 times:

India was advertising / had an article about the lack of pilots a month or two back in The Canadian newspaper!! New start hours were VERY low. - You have to start somewhere. The starting requirements were either a UK Licence or US Licence.
( International routes) so you can eat "normal food" - no disrespect intended anybody!!

Some say that the Instruction route is the way to build hours, others think that Instructor hours mean s**t.

Your decision.

There are many jobs in Africa and Indonesia for instance, BUT of course you take your chances with the company, the area and the living conditions / pay.

I built hours with Traffic watch, in CYYC, 17 years ago, with a C172 C-GSEX, and many a joke was made of that!!
My passenger was Captain Kirk!! - still going, in a Robinson Helicopter now.

Good Luck.
Peter



peter b95 c-ghfu
User currently offlineEMB195 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 41 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4231 times:

Well fellow a.neters, I am 21 and I am going through exactly what some of you have gone through when you were my age. Trying to decide if I want to pursue a career as an airline pilot. Sometimes I think I should just get into the medical field. I mean I think about how it would be like to have a family as an airline pilot, I've heard so many things about it, good and bad. So many times I go through all the university's majors, to see if something interests me, and nothing... I always get to the end of the list and I can never find something. And every time I drive by the airport I can't help it but think about flying. So I've pretty much decided I should just pursue a career as a pilot. I'll probably get a bachelors on something else though just in case.

So hopefully wages will get better someday. I am also from Brazil, and I read on the news that Brazil might possibly be short of airline pilots in a few years. Though I don't know how much pilots get paid there.


User currently offlineBlueskies8 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4165 times:

Quoting 727forever (Reply 14):
Zero time to the cockpit with 240 hours of sim training and ten hours in an airplane. Have fun talking on the radio because that's about all the Captains will be letting you do as an MPL pilot.

This is interesting and I find it surprising that it is happening in Europe and potentially Canada as well. If you've got a pilot with that little time sitting in the right seat of a Boeing or Airbus then the Captains should be getting $200+/hr as it is going to be a lot more work for them. Not to say that all low time pilots are not going to cut it but from my experience and that of others that I know it is for the most part a lot more work for the Captain. However, this is exactly what the airline executives want, low time pilots that will jump at the opportunity to fly a Boeing regardless of the hourly rate. To fly for a living you have to love it but don't make it charity work.


User currently offlineBlueskies8 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4129 times:

Quoting EMB195 (Reply 16):
Trying to decide if I want to pursue a career as an airline pilot.

There are a lot of other lucrative flying jobs other than the airlines. I know corporate pilots making $300,000. You won't start there but it is something to look forward to.


User currently offlineSquakin1200 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 17 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4057 times:

I hear what you are saying BLUESKY, at 2000 hours I've kind of written off the airlines for now. I am lucky enough to work for a company that owns an Airplane, so half of my job is flying the boss around. Works out pretty well and keeps me flying.
As others have mentioned, going international seems to be the ticket. Many countries in south america and others in asia have a huge demand and not enough pilots. That means they pay much better than US jobs. You have to be willing to move though. Just the other day I got a call from a buddy in Asia, he said "If you ever wanna come down here, you can right seat in an A320 no problem, my average co-pilot has 500 hours Total time". I imagine the opportunity to upgrade is very good there.


User currently offlineEMB195 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 41 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3739 times:

Quoting Blueskies8 (Reply 18):
I know corporate pilots making $300,000. You won't start there but it is something to look forward to.

Very true. I was just talking to a guy yesterday at a flight school who flies corporate. The only problem I see with that is that the airlines will give you a more fixed schedule. That is when you have the seniority of course. I mean corporate can be good because sometimes you will have lots of free time. But it can also be the other way around. So I just figured the airlines would fit me better. However corporate will always be an option of course. Now, the regionals are in a huge demand for pilots aren't they?


User currently offlineBoeingluvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3709 times:

Quoting 727forever (Reply 14):
Ah yes, the MPL program. This is an interesting development indeed. Zero time to the cockpit with 240 hours of sim training and ten hours in an airplane. Have fun talking on the radio because that's about all the Captains will be letting you do as an MPL pilot

Not true actually... A good friend of mine who finished the program with about 4 years ago has a tonne of PIC time. We are guarunteed a certain amount of PIC time once done. And you don't really have a good idea of the program. Most of our time is in a DA42 and then either 6 months training on 737 or 757's which are the most likely aircraft we will be flying. So 10 hours of aircraft and 240 of sim is a little out there bud...


User currently offlineBlueskies8 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3425 times:

Quoting EMB195 (Reply 20):
The only problem I see with that is that the airlines will give you a more fixed schedule.

That can be a problem but overall a corporate pilot has more time off. There are rarely pop-up trips in the corporate world as opposed to the charter world but you are on reserve more often, but at home!

Quoting EMB195 (Reply 20):
Now, the regionals are in a huge demand for pilots aren't they?

Yes they are and so are companies like Netjets, Flexjet etc. There are a lot of options out there so be patient and go for what you want. Best of luck to you.


User currently offlineLeftWing From Singapore, joined Mar 2006, 284 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3269 times:

if you get your self 737NG or 320 rated with 2000 hrs you can land a job within weeks in Asia.

User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8691 posts, RR: 16
Reply 24, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3206 times:

I'm not a pilot but see Asian jobs opening up all the time. Take the opportunity and you never know where you could land.

Hunter



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
25 LongHauler : I find most North American young people have a sense of "entitlement" and are not willing to work hard for a good job. They just "expect" it, or give
26 Silentbob : The unions will be expecting it long before then. As long as you don't mind moving, you should be able to get hired within a couple days if you're re
27 Post contains links 727forever : You were in the conventional "ab-initio" program. If you read what I was referring to it is the MPL, Multi-Crew Pilot License. ICAO approved this lic
28 TheGreatChecko : Bingo! The regionals in the US can't find enough pilots. Many of them are canceling flights because they don't have enough crews to fly their own sch
29 Boeingluvr : Sorry bout the misunderstanding. Your sentance started with ahh the old... So I assumed from that since it was the program I brought up that you were
30 WindowSeat : Unfortunately, I have no sympathy for pilots who claim there are no jobs left for them. This industry is no different than any other. If you want a jo
31 LongHauler : What I find curious is that the OP is from "downtown Toronto". That is within spitting distance of Air Canada's largest pilot base, and where the fas
32 Post contains images BlueSkys : Flying is definately for me, I just decided that if I can make close to the money of a senior captain @ AC b/f the age of 25 why on earth would I str
33 BlueSkys : LongHauler: One of my clients girlfriends, last i spoke to them was flying E-190's for AC, was about to be transfered for Widebody training.. She is 2
34 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Words to live by
35 LongHauler : I have a pretty good idea who you are talking about, and she is a very capable pilot. She opted for bottom B767 F/O ... not a great job, but at her a
36 LongHauler : I did much the same thing 25 years ago! I did start my own Charter company, and I did make a great deal of money. However, any position that allows t
37 Post contains images BlueSkys : Thanks for the insight! By the way are we talking about the Red Haired girl? I Guess I stand corrected I Have seen it done on corporate airlines so a
38 Aaron747 : Except investment banking. Anyone who doesn't mind putting in 60 hours a week to chase a $25K christmas bonus can do plenty well in that industry.
39 NYCAASpouse : Oh boo hoo. Tell that to the pricks who did everything they could to foul up UA in 2000. Some pilots love thier job. Some pilots love their union con
40 Post contains images AnneTooh : Since everyone is talking about the financial aspects here I'd like to add just a little bit. I've been doing this job now for some 17+ years and am l
41 ZKSUJ : Interesting thread. Asia is still challenging fro a Fresh CPL, MEIR holder. The requirements are still for type ratings and some decent time in those
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