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MSP-HNL Passenger Loads  
User currently offlineAf773atmsp From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2695 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2352 times:

How are the passenger loads on the MSP-HNL route? Since NW in the past has operated this route with the 742 and DC-10, and is now operating this route with the A330, the passenger loads must be big. Is this route seasonal? If the passenger loads got low could NW operate this route with a 752 (with or without winglets)? Or if there was more demand, could NW operate this route year-around with an A333 and 752?


It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3214 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2319 times:

Quoting Af773atmsp (Thread starter):
could NW operate this route year-around with an A333 and 752?

The route already is operated year-round......

According to the NWA timetable, the route is 3972mi. Which, you *could* use a 752 on it, but the better question would be: why??

The TATL 752's at NWA have two rows removed from First, to create the World Business Class cabin, and three rows removed from coach to create 33-34in pitch throughout Y....also a great weight-saving measure. So, the TATL 752's could probably do it, as they have winglets and reduced weight, but a standard 752 might take a weight restriction on the route, especially on the westbound.

As far as loads go......the flight often operates with 100% load factor.


User currently offlineAf773atmsp From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2695 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2311 times:

Once NW starts taking delivery of their 787s and replaces the A330s on the Asian/Pacific routes, could NW put another A330 on the MSP-HNL route?


It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8631 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2301 times:

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 2):
could NW put another A330 on the MSP-HNL route?

They could do that now. But 2x A333 would be a massive amount of HNL lift for MSP. They used to do 2x D10 sometimes during winter peaks. But, using common sense, that would be too many seats for the market in general. As others have said, MSP-HNL has been around for decades and has a large following.


User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3214 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2284 times:

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 2):
Once NW starts taking delivery of their 787s and replaces the A330s on the Asian/Pacific routes, could NW put another A330 on the MSP-HNL route?

About the only route that has been announced for sure is the inaugural JFK-NRT, for the 787. The 787 is not set to replace the A330 in any capacity. It may be placed on current A330 routes, only to displace the 330 to other routes. NWA will not be getting rid of 330's as the 787 arrives, if that's what you were implying...

Quoting Flighty (Reply 3):
They could do that now. But 2x A333 would be a massive amount of HNL lift for MSP.

2x daily nonstops would be a huge amount of lift. In addition to the MSP-HNL nonstop (NW 808/809), NWA operates 4 direct flights between the two cities:

NW 807: MSP-SEA-HNL
NW 221: MSP-SFO-HNL
NW 803: MSP-LAX-HNL
NW 217: MSP-PDX-HNL

All operated with 753's.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26595 posts, RR: 75
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2271 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 3):
But 2x A333 would be a massive amount of HNL lift for MSP. They used to do 2x D10 sometimes during winter peaks. But, using common sense, that would be too many seats for the market in general.

I would bet it makes sense in the winter, given the amount of warm weather travel done by Minnesotan's and other people serviced by the MSP hub in the winter.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 4):

2x daily nonstops would be a huge amount of lift. In addition to the MSP-HNL nonstop (NW 808/809), NWA operates 4 direct flights between the two cities:

Well, those directs are really 2 different flights. A lot of the traffic is going O&D between the middle city and the end cities.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3214 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2254 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 5):
Well, those directs are really 2 different flights. A lot of the traffic is going O&D between the middle city and the end cities.

Definitely true, but NWA still markets them as direct MSP-HNL flights


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6490 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2144 times:

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 6):
Definitely true, but NWA still markets them as direct MSP-HNL flights

In what manner does NWA market them as direct flights?


User currently offlinePaladin87 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2093 times:

Didn't NWA have a nonstop from DTW with a DC-10 a few years back and what were the loads on that

User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8631 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2055 times:

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 7):
In what manner does NWA market them as direct flights?

Direct, meaning 1 flight number, 1 jet. They are actually the fastest way to get MSP-OGG or MSP-LIH, if that is what you are trying to do. Plus, they provide the nonstop service to the west coast city. Overall, these 753 1-stop flights really do offer something to the hub connect passenger. They are almost as convenient as a nonstop and, crucially, they beat transferring in crowded HNL, if that's your only other option.

But more and more, people are 1-stopping to outer Hawaii from their origin cities. The willingness to get a 2-stop to outer Hawaii used to be the norm. Now, you can 1-stop most of those journeys. NWA is losing some traffic to UA and US who offer that, at SFO and PHX.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7648 posts, RR: 27
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1992 times:

Quoting Paladin87 (Reply 8):
Didn't NWA have a nonstop from DTW with a DC-10 a few years back and what were the loads on that

NW has run DTW-HNL DC-10 seasonally in the past. Most recent it operated over the Christmas/New Years period at the end of 2004. Prior to that, it operated about 3-4 years seasonally during the Christmas & Spring Break period (~ 2 weeks at the end of Dec/Early Jan and then from mid-Feb to Mid-April.

It went out full most of the time but yields were just okay. However, this was during the time when a number of airlines added Hawaii service. Since then, a number of routes from the Eastern half of the US to Hawaii have been dropped, partially due to other vacation options (including many that are closer travel-wise), Americans more willing to travel overseas down that some of the post-9/11 jitters have settled down, and the cost of operating these longer/lower yielding routes.

For example dropped Hawaii routes:
AA ORD-OGG
AA ORD-HNL 2x daily -> 1x daily
DL CVG-HNL reduced to seasonal, and less than weekly
DL ATL-KOA
DL ATL-OGG
NW DTW-HNL seasonal

Rumors pop from every now and then that they are reconsidering a DTW-HNL A330 service but doubtful it will happen, particularly with the expanded West Coast options and that a A330 will be on one of the SEA-HNL flights.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 4):
About the only route that has been announced for sure is the inaugural JFK-NRT, for the 787.

It has not been officially announced and until you see the press release, see it in the schedule, and see the aircraft at the gate then I wouldn't necessarily believe it to be 100% true. They have said they would like to restore it with the 787, but that was well over a year ago. They very likely still could, and the 787 will be here a year from now, so lets see what happens in the next 6 months regarding 787 routes. Recently NW execs were quoted to say the first 787 flight will be DTW-Asia, a vague statement at best.

Quoting Af773atmsp (Thread starter):
If the passenger loads got low could NW operate this route with a 752 (with or without winglets)? Or if there was more demand, could NW operate this route year-around with an A333 and 752?

No problem with year-round loads on MSP-HNL, its yields, but more or less its one of those routes that NW has to fly regardless if it is truely profitable. They couldn't rely completely on West Coast-Hawaii flights, as they need HNL-hub service. The 752 would never work. The 757 TATL aircraft is designed to be a premium aircraft, and has a significantly higher CASM versus the regular 752 (which is not ETOPS) and the 753. Regardless, the Westbound flight can face some stiff winds at times, and the resulting weight restrictions would kill any chance of success on an MSP-HNL 757 flight.


User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3214 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1816 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 10):
the Westbound flight can face some stiff winds at times, and the resulting weight restrictions would kill any chance of success on an MSP-HNL 757 flight.

Even when the route used to be operated with a DC10, the flight would still occasionally take weight restrictions due to the strong enroute winds. I'm not sure though, if the A333 takes weight restrictions on the route.


User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1671 times:

Kind of interesting that HNL is now going to be an A333 hub.
MSP-HNL
HNL-NRT (-GUM/SPN)
HNL-KIX

You can technically book MSP-KIX by flying via DTW or HNL. Time is almost the same. You have two hours downtime at HNL before the KIX departure. But going KIX-MSP via HNL would mean arriving at 8 in the morning HNL time and sitting around for 8 hours before flying off to MSP. In this case DTW is better. But certainly flying KIX-HNL (few hours of beach time) -MSP wouldn't be too bad.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7648 posts, RR: 27
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1622 times:

Quoting Centrair (Reply 12):
Kind of interesting that HNL is now going to be an A333 hub.
MSP-HNL
HNL-NRT (-GUM/SPN)
HNL-KIX

In November add SEA-HNL too as it becomes 1x A333, 1x 753


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6490 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1600 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 9):
Direct, meaning 1 flight number, 1 jet. They are actually the fastest way to get MSP-OGG or MSP-LIH, if that is what you are trying to do. Plus, they provide the nonstop service to the west coast city. Overall, these 753 1-stop flights really do offer something to the hub connect passenger. They are almost as convenient as a nonstop and, crucially, they beat transferring in crowded HNL, if that's your only other option.

But more and more, people are 1-stopping to outer Hawaii from their origin cities. The willingness to get a 2-stop to outer Hawaii used to be the norm. Now, you can 1-stop most of those journeys. NWA is losing some traffic to UA and US who offer that, at SFO and PHX.

I know what a direct flight is, what I was asking was examples of NWA marketing it as DIRECT service as was claimed. Two different things.


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