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Is HA Ever Expanding To The East  
User currently offlineMIAUA777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 45 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5405 times:

I was just wondering if HA ever flew to the east coast? And if not will they ever attempt to try the routes either direct from Hawaii to the east coast or continuations from the West Coast.

71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5390 times:

Quoting MIAUA777 (Thread starter):
I was just wondering if HA ever flew to the east coast? And if not will they ever attempt to try the routes either direct from Hawaii to the east coast or continuations from the West Coast.

The past 3-4 years have seen the following rumors:

HNL-STL
HNL-MCO
HNL-DFW
HNL-ORD
HNL-MCI
HNL-JFK

It has yet to be seen if any of the above will ever come into play..

-JD


User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3402 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5388 times:

If they do, I would find HNL-ORD and HNL-JFK the most likely. They might encounter some stiff competition from UA and CO, respectively, though.

User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1616 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5368 times:

Can their current 767s fly unrestricted from JKF/ORD to HNL?

User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3402 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5352 times:

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 3):
Can their current 767s fly unrestricted from JKF/ORD to HNL?

JFK-HNL is 4330 nm. If LA can fly a 763 MAD-GYE (4867 nm), then the 763 is more than capable of the route.

For comparison, CO flies a 764 (with less range than the 763) EWR-HNL and doesn't suffer any notable weight restrictions.


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5330 times:

There have always been rumors, and I think that HA was very close to opening a route to JFK before the 9/11 attacks and resulting downturn....but consider that operating a flights from the east coast is a difficult proposition. There are few nonstop flights from the Eastern Half of the US to HNL.....and those operate from major hubs for the big carriers to the islands. CO operates the only nonstop service from the NYC area to HNL for example.....and there is a reason for the lack of service: for most pax living in the eastern half of the US, a sun and beach vacation to Florida, Mexico or the Caribbean is far less expensive and requires far less flying than a trip to Hawaii. Its simply competition between various sun destinations.

Also consider that East Coast-Hawaii turn ties up a longhaul airplane for about 24 hours.....and while yields to Hawaii are better than they were in the past, there are probably better routes to fly where more money can be made.

Thus, as HA looks to expand, I think that they will be looking to Asia and the Pacific and not the US east coast for future long haul services.


User currently offlineSpencerII From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5163 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5):
Also consider that East Coast-Hawaii turn ties up a longhaul airplane for about 24 hours.....and while yields to Hawaii are better than they were in the past, there are probably better routes to fly where more money can be made.

This is a fact, and with the yields on most Hawaii services at extremely low parameters aircraft would be better utilized in other types of ops. That being said, HA definitely needs to diversify their route structure and perhaps consider
adding some domestic mainland services to some West Coast city they currently operate from and sort of operate a hub feeding system to their hawaii/south pacific bound flights Their scheduled operation is almost 100% reliant on Hawaii bound/Hawaii originate or intra hawaii services. Some mainland points outside the extreme WEst Coast would diversify their revenue stream, and also provide feed for their Mainland-Hawaii operations.


User currently offlineNrcnyc From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5075 times:

I know little about HA. Could HA compete with CO on price much? Would they be able to offer better Service than CO?

I have flown CO EWR-HNL a few times in BF, probably some of the best domestic flying available.


User currently offlineWhappeh From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1563 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5068 times:

HNL-MCO? Really? That seems like an odd route to me.


-Travel now, journey infinitely.
User currently offlineAirTranTUS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5029 times:

Quoting Nrcnyc (Reply 7):
Would they be able to offer better Service than CO?

Maybe food and crew-wise, but CO has PTV's on their 767's.


User currently offlineLGAtoIND From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 490 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5010 times:

I don't know a great deal of information on HA, but JFK has no nonstop HNL service, which would make it a prime choice, regardless of the service at EWR, as the markets are very different. Also, BOS and IAD have no service to HNL, am I correct? Also, could the 763 even make JFK-HNL nonstop?

User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3402 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4998 times:

Quoting LGAtoIND (Reply 10):
Also, could the 763 even make JFK-HNL nonstop?

Yes, as I stated earlier. If the 764 can make it, the 763 can, too.


User currently offlineFlynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4975 times:

A while back Delta had 1-stop service to HNL from MCO (as in, it was the same flight number on each leg, same aircraft). I remember taking the MCO-ATL left of this flight on a 764 and the cabin crew stating that passengers continuing on to HNL could remain on board. I honestly don't see HA starting HNL-MCO anytime soon, at least, not before JFK or DFW. There is more than enough capacity to HNL from MCO today in terms of connection options. Using a random date of August 14, Delta offered 27 separate itineraries with connections thru ATL, CVG, MSP, SFO, and LAX.

But, then again, my philosophy is to never say never...


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4926 times:

Quoting LGAtoIND (Reply 10):
I don't know a great deal of information on HA, but JFK has no nonstop HNL service, which would make it a prime choice, regardless of the service at EWR, as the markets are very different

The difference is that CO has a big hub at EWR that can feed passengers to the EWR-HNL flight...allowing the flight to operate with a good mix of O&D pax and pax connecting from other eastern US destinations. HA would have no feed whatsoever at JFK which would be problematic....running this flight solely for O&D passengers probably would not work. As an example, look at Air Tahiti's miserable performance with the JFK-PPT route. Again, New Yorkers and other east coast residents can easily fly to Florida, the Bahamas, the Caribbean, Mexico in a few short hours where a flight to Hawaii is a 10 hour affair.....it quicker to fly from NYC to Rome than it to fly from NYC to Honolulu! The long flight adds expense and reduces the Hawaii's appeal as a beach destination as there are so many other alternatives.....and passengers from the NYC area who want to go to Hawaii have the CO nonstop, or can fly their carrier of choice via the respective airlines hub city; there is already a good amount of choice.

As for the differences between the markets served by EWR and JFK, for the purposes of this discussion, both airports serve the greater NYC area and lets leave it at that.

Quoting LGAtoIND (Reply 10):
Also, BOS and IAD have no service to HNL, am I correct?

They dont, nor does PHL, CLE, DTW at the moment, etc, etc. The reasons are (1) limited demand, (2) yields as Hawaii is primarily a leisure and not a business route, (3) the distance of the flight means dedicating a longhaul widebody to the route for many hours.....a plane that could probably be used for more profitable routes, and (4) the airlines can get you to Hawaii (and in many cases directly to your island of choice) efficiently via a Western US hub city.


User currently offlineAirTranTUS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4906 times:

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 12):
I honestly don't see HA starting HNL-MCO anytime soon

Agreed. MCO and HNL are competing markets aren't they?


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4894 times:

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 14):
Agreed. MCO and HNL are competing markets aren't they?

In the broadest sense, both MCO and HNL are leisure holiday destinations.

In any case, I really dont see any type of market between the two cities....and there are plenty of ways to fly between MCO and HNL on each of the major carriers by transiting one hub city.


User currently offlineSllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4852 times:

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 4):
JFK-HNL is 4330 nm. If LA can fly a 763 MAD-GYE (4867 nm), then the 763 is more than capable of the route.

While I'm not disagreeing that the 763 could fly the route, one thing to be careful of when talking about distances and HNL (as compared to transatlantic) is that the US West Coast to HNL is just about the longest segment flown without alternates around. That's why AMS-IAH has about virtually no fuel diverts, whilst EWR-HNL does sometimes have to stop in the winter.

But I do wholly agree that if the 764 makes it all but a handful of days a year, clearly a 763 could do so easily year round without issues.

Steve


User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5477 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4817 times:

Quoting SpencerII (Reply 6):
Their scheduled operation is almost 100% reliant on Hawaii bound/Hawaii originate or intra hawaii services. Some mainland points outside the extreme WEst Coast would diversify their revenue stream, and also provide feed for their Mainland-Hawaii operations.

Hence the name, HAWAIIAN Airlines.  Wink And from what I hear, their planes are quite full, the fares are not that cheap and they appear to be rather successful on their trans-Pacific routes; they are suffering on the inter-island due mostly to Go! I think they will continue to serve the west coast cities, increasing capacity on existing routes as possible and needed, and work on some int'l route expansion. Almost any additional mainland US cities HA would be interested in already have n/s HNL service (since they are someones' hubs.)

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5):
for most pax living in the eastern half of the US, a sun and beach vacation to Florida, Mexico or the Caribbean is far less expensive and requires far less flying than a trip to Hawaii. Its simply competition between various sun destinations.

Dead on, Dutch'; cruises have changed that situation a bit but your point is sound.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5):

Also consider that East Coast-Hawaii turn ties up a longhaul airplane for about 24 hours.....and while yields to Hawaii are better than they were in the past, there are probably better routes to fly where more money can be made

Also a very valid observation.

The one thing that I would like to see HA try is to add a MEX leg to say, HNL- or OGG-SAN; I've thought (and said) for many years that even though the citizens of MEX (and GDL) have plenty of their own nearby beach/sun resorts, when I lived in HNL for a couple of years, there was a large Mexican presence there. I don't know any numbers but I think a direct flight might produce loads that would surprise people. HA would also make some money carrying local pax between SAN and MEX (and/or GDL) since nobody else is doing it.

bb


User currently offlineER757 From Cayman Islands, joined May 2005, 2560 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4743 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5):
Thus, as HA looks to expand, I think that they will be looking to Asia and the Pacific and not the US east coast for future long haul services.

I'm wondering if they could compete profitably with JL on HNL/NRT or HNL/KIX. Lord knows the Ewa concourse often looks more like Narita than Honolulu, but I have no Idea what fare structure or package deals that JL offers and whether HA could match or beat JL and turn a profit at the same time.
As for eastward expansion in the US, I don't see them going any further east than ORD and that would be a struggle going against the entrenched powers of UA and AA


User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4702 times:

Quoting Nrcnyc (Reply 7):
Would they be able to offer better Service than CO?

They offer the best domestic economy product of any US airline.. IMHO!!

-JD


User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3402 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4646 times:

Has HA ever considered turning HNL into a massive trans-Pacific connecting hub? They could serve secondary cities in both the United States and Asia with 73Gs or 752s from HNL (admittedly, the 757 can't reach many Asian cities from HNL) and funnel them through to the other side of the ocean.

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33087 posts, RR: 71
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4636 times:

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 12):

But, then again, my philosophy is to never say never...

In the case of MCO-HNL, saying "never" is okay.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 17):
HA would also make some money carrying local pax between SAN and MEX (and/or GDL) since nobody else is doing it.

Nobody is doing it because the market is not really there, as AeroMexico has discovered multiple times.



a.
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25846 posts, RR: 50
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4615 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 17):
they appear to be rather successful on their trans-Pacific routes

Marginal from a financial position according to their CEO. At the last conference call he termed TransPac which represents 70% of HAs revenue as "long haul, low yield" and "very competitive with pricing being challenging"

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 20):
Has HA ever considered turning HNL into a massive trans-Pacific connecting hub?

The day Hawaii could be sold as a Pacific hub are long gone.

With aircraft that can overfly Hawaii and connect markets directly, one is not going to find many people willing to detour via Hawaii.
A good example is HA's SYD service. The carrier has to go to great lenghts on the mainland to market the SYD flight with offers of free stopovers and even interisland flights to try to attract people away from the nonstop West Coast-South Pacific options. Such incentives come both at a cost and reduced yields.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineJe89_w From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 2362 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4589 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Quoting ER757 (Reply 18):
I'm wondering if they could compete profitably with JL on HNL/NRT or HNL/KIX

Hawaiian actually got the go ahead for the OGG-NRT route with their DC-10s back in 1998 or so. Apparently, the route did not takeoff because of filled parking capacities at NRT or something like that. I believe they also tried the HNL-NRT route as well.

Many airlines fly the HNL-NRT sector, like CI, UA, JO (JL), NH, and NW. JL, NH, and UA have cut numerous flights since 2001, and although the Japan to Hawaii market and competition is huge, not sure if it would be a good idea for HA to launch that route now.


User currently offlineSpencerII From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4589 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 17):
Quoting SpencerII (Reply 6):
Their scheduled operation is almost 100% reliant on Hawaii bound/Hawaii originate or intra hawaii services. Some mainland points outside the extreme WEst Coast would diversify their revenue stream, and also provide feed for their Mainland-Hawaii operations.

Hence the name, HAWAIIAN Airlines. And from what I hear, their planes are quite full, the fares are not that cheap and they appear to be rather successful on their trans-Pacific routes; they are suffering on the inter-island due mostly to Go! I think they will continue to serve the west coast cities, increasing capacity on existing routes as possible and needed, and work on some int'l route expansion. Almost any additional mainland US cities HA would be interested in already have n/s HNL service (since they are someones' hubs.)

and Hence comes bankrupctys and huge losses. I wonder what Alaska Airlines would be today if they only served the SEA-Alaska and Inter Alaska markets. If HA continues as they are, they won't be around much longer. HENCE the addage, put your head in the sand and let it pass.


25 DTWAGENT : How about DTW-HNL. Right now we don't even have a non-stop flight in the winter months to HNL any more. HA would be a great thing here in DTW. chuck
26 MAH4546 : That's a market for Northwest and Northwest alone. If they can't make it work, nobody can.
27 Ha763 : The ER's can do it easily. I can say that this was very true. I found out that JFK was supposed to have been announced on Sept. 16. Also, the NYC mar
28 Aloha73G : This probably does not mean anything but during the recent F/A hirings they were looking for Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Samoan and French speakers....
29 Ha763 : HA has always looked for people who are bilingual/multilingual for F/As. It used to be just Japanese, French, and Samoan. The addition of Korean woul
30 Post contains images Boeing737WG : Why doesn't HA order some 777's or take a few 763's from an airpark? Boeing737WG
31 SLCUT2777 : Last year there was a rumor that HA was looking at SLC-HNL. But I think this one is one for DL to lose.
32 D L X : Why not fly to PHL and get some feed from their partner US Airways?
33 Flynavy : Have they ever considered FAT, RNO, or ANC?
34 Post contains links and images HangarRat : View Large View MediumPhoto © Felix Goetting They used to fly to PHL. I remember these old birds flying over my house when I was a kid in the 80
35 PSU.DTW.SCE : As said if NW can't do it than no one else can. NW flew DTW-HNL seasonally for 3-4 years with a DC-10. The flight operated for the two weeks surround
36 Dutchjet : I assume you are joking, you are joking, right? Why would US Airways put their pax on HA airplanes when, instead, US can simply send its pax to Hawai
37 FLYGUY767 : Aloha flies to Reno to Honolulu daily via Orange County They are anything but partners anymore... And it was America West, not US Airways -JD
38 Post contains links Chugach : HA has flown HNL-ANC for years. It's a scheduled charter in conjunction with Hawaiian Vacations. See www.hawaiianvacations.com for more info.
39 Boeing743 : I wonder if HA has enough fleet to support the new routes to East coast of US out of HNL?? Also major city would be major routes. JFK would be likely
40 Post contains images OB1504 : It makes sense to fly into US' hubs at LAX and PHX, which are much closer than PHL and CLT.
41 Jj : This summer AS is also flying ANC-HNL daily. And Northwest used to fly it with their 753's IIRC.
42 Post contains images FLYGUY767 : You mean LAS dont you? -JD
43 Post contains images SLCUT2777 : The other thing that comes into play here is geography and leisure destination preference. For much of the population in the U.S. (the east coast and
44 CitrusCritter : If you consider secondary cities as OB1504 suggested, there is an untapped markets. American airlines are mainly interested in serving PVG and PEK in
45 Laxintl : HA had previously applied with the DOT for 2006 China award. The airline this time around declined to apply for the 2007-2009 awards citing lack of p
46 PSU.DTW.SCE : Part of the issue with East Coast - Hawaii trips having less overall demand is the nature of a trip. Its is very impractical, if not extremely difficu
47 Post contains images SLCUT2777 : Canadians on the other hand love to spend 2-2.5 weeks at a time in a tropical destination each winter. One option HA might look at is YVR service (or
48 Laxintl : Aloha tried and dropped YVR back in 2005. While the market dynamics have changed somewhat Canada-Hawaii has tended to be the domain of charters with p
49 CitrusCritter : Indeed, but as I have pointed out in other HA threads, they have to look beyond Hawaii as everyone's final destination. AS is not based around Alaska
50 Post contains images SLCUT2777 : While charters and package deals are huge in Canada, given the length of time most Canadians love to stay in the "fun-N-Sun," typically between Novem
51 DL777LAX : I have an idea. What if HA set up a mini hub at SJC? Its not too crowded of a market, a few key routes, such as connecting there west coast dots and e
52 CitrusCritter : If nothing else, that would be bold. Unfortunately, I don't think HA has the leadership to make that sort of move. It's like they're huddled in their
53 Aloha73G : Comparing Alaska to Hawaiian/Aloha is not a fair comparison in my opinion. Hawai'i is more populated and supports far more air-traffic than Alaska. Ha
54 CitrusCritter : And yet they're bleeding money. Until go! goes away, HA is a dying creature unless they make some bold moves. The current business plan is not workin
55 Post contains links Cageyjames : Actually they still are codeshare partners on interisland travel. http://www.usairways.com/awa/content...s/partnersfleet/otherpartners.aspx
56 Post contains images Laxintl : and go! is not their only problem. In the last quarter HA saw RASM and yield decline on Transpac flying in addition to the bloody interlisland market
57 SLCUT2777 : " target=_blank>http://www.usairways.com/awa/content....aspx I find that association very interesting considering how cozy HP+US is with GO parent com
58 Aloha73G : I wouldn't say Hawaiian is bleeding money or dying. Their business plan works great on the mainland flights and quite well on interisland as long as
59 SLCUT2777 : This is not good news for HA. How long can they bleed like this and not seek BK protection?
60 SpencerII : Obviously if what they are doing is the best they can do, they will bankrupt again and no longer exist.[Edited 2007-08-08 22:46:41]
61 WA727 : PHX is as far east as HA goes. The morning departure is too early for US connections from the east coast. However, the PHX metro area (almost 4 millio
62 Chugach : Um... AS doesn't start any HNL until October this year. SEA-HNL and SEA-LIH start in October, ANC-HNL starts in December and is seasonal (although I
63 CitrusCritter : I think that says it better than I possibly could. It is very clear that HA and AQ are in danger. Obviously, it is easier to speculate about HA becau
64 Post contains images HAL : I'll try and hit a few points mentioned above without resorting to using quotes. 1) Finances: HA isn't 'bleeding money'. In the second quarter we lost
65 Bluewave 707 : Wasn't HA granted an HNL-FUK(Fukuoka, Japan) route back in the early 90s? JL/JO used to have that flight but axed it last year (or '05). If HA gets in
66 Laxintl : According to 2nd quarter earning calls, management expects to see approximately 1/3 of cash on hand to decline during the remainder of the year. The
67 Aloha73G : Great post HAL. I can also vouch that the morale at HA is great. The financials are improving, costs are being trimmed all the while HA is still provi
68 HNL-Jack : HA has looked at routes into the interior U.S. frequently. JFK was under serious consideration until, as someone mentioned, 9-11 took place. I do beli
69 HAL : HA sold that route to Northwest in the mid-90's. The OGG-NRT route is (I think) still in our possession, but useless since you can't get a 767 off th
70 Post contains images ER757 : Great post HAL - thanks for the insider's insight. I am glad to hear the above statement from an HA employee. HA's service is far and away the best o
71 Ha763 : Nope, as I said in my first post, HA lost the authority because they couldn't get the right time slots at NRT.
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