DABZF From Germany, joined Mar 2004, 1201 posts, RR: 0 Posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 7873 times:
Last friday I took AY flight HEL-FRA which departure was delayed for almost 1,5 hours because they were waiting connecting passengers (9 of them, all Y-class, I think) from one of their long haul Asian flights. Next to me was sitting a couple who were on their honeymoon and going to MRU on MK - because of the delay they eventually missed their connection. There was also some other passenger who missed their connections.
After about 30 min of the delay the woman of the couple started to talk to the F/A about their connection and was very worried that they will not make it. F/A promised to talk to the Captain. I also made a point to the F/A that there was LH flight leaving 1,5 hours later then the STD of the AY flight... "why wouldn't you put the delayed passengers on the LH flight so that the passenger on this light would make their connections?" - I asked, F/A again promised to check with the Captain.
Now, AY do not have any "own" connections ex FRA, some OneWorld ones only.
Q1) Do they care if the passengers (who have maid their bookings trough travel agency) do not make their OAL connections?
This all sounds a bit weird... I understand that you wait for connecting pax's if there is no way to get them to their destination in due time, say the same day - in this case they would have had the possibility of the LH flight. I know that there was more than plenty of space on the LH flight.
Q2) I'm not sure how AY would compensate the couple (and few others) because they missed their flight? Do AY follow the EU directive?
Q3) Would AY need to pay more to LH (via IATA clearing house) by diverting the delayed 9 pax onto LH flight instead of compensating the couple?
If so, this would be the only sensible explanation why AY decided to delay the flight this 1,5 hours.
Q4) Is this kind of delaying normal? I mean, I have been in a reversed situation before where AY have not delayed the flight for connecting passengers even the connection has been the last flight of the day!
Q5) Are these delays a Captains "call" always?
I like driving backwards in the fog cause it doesn't remind me of anything - Chris Cornell
Vivekman2006 From India, joined May 2006, 541 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 7852 times:
Have experienced this at BOM with Air India. I was on AI 144 from BOM to AMD. We had to wait nearly 1.5 hrs for incoming passengers from an international AI flight. After a wait of an hour, the F/As started serving snacks even though the aircraft was at the gate.
I think the decision to wait depends on the number of connecting passengers expected and the availability of alternative flights to the same destination.
Flyboy_se From Sweden, joined Feb 2000, 829 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 7822 times:
Thats odd that they wait so long for connecting pax. I guess in this case, AY cares more about their own pax then others that continue on other airlines.It is usually up to the captain to wait, but sometimes they get a call from Operations that tell them to wait. It could be that those 9 pax were VIP or something.And maybe it would have cost them more to transfer those 9 pax to LH then to delay their own flight 1,5 hours. It really depends.
I prefer to be crazy and happy rather than normal and bitter
Aisak From Spain, joined Aug 2005, 763 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 7708 times:
Quoting DABZF (Thread starter): Q1) Do they care if the passengers (who have maid their bookings trough travel agency) do not make their OAL connections?
Maybe and probably MK was the ticket handler (for the honeymoon couple) and somehow the AY guys couldn't figure out they were handing over these pax at FRA.
Quoting DABZF (Thread starter): Q2) I'm not sure how AY would compensate the couple (and few others) because they missed their flight? Do AY follow the EU directive?
The EU directive doesn't say anything abouth flights delayed less than 2hr. It's upto the travel agency (or better said the tour operator) to clean up the mess and compensate the passengers. (and the tour operator could ask for compensation from Finnair)
Quoting DABZF (Thread starter): Q3) Would AY need to pay more to LH (via IATA clearing house) by diverting the delayed 9 pax onto LH flight instead of compensating the couple?
mmm you said the LH flight was departing 1.5 hours after AY's scheduled depature..... These 9 asian passengers couldn't have caugth that flight anayway. Maybe there weren't 9 seats on the next available flight the following morning. Maybe they were OW emerald or VIP of any kind as suggested above. Maybe AY guys didn't know how many passengers could miss their off-line connections. Maybe they knew and didn't care (was cheaper)
Quoting DABZF (Thread starter): Q4) Is this kind of delaying normal? I mean, I have been in a reversed situation before where AY have not delayed the flight for connecting passengers even the connection has been the last flight of the day!
I guess it depends on:
-who the people on the delayed incoming flight are
-who the people on the delaying outgoing flight are
-who the Finnair people working that day are
-the tight (or not) schedule of the aircraft for that day
-the congestion the destination airport suffers from
and on on on....
SASDC8 From Norway, joined Mar 2006, 763 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 7647 times:
Thought it might be the Captain who makes the official decision to wait or not, I would think that flight operations would have a big say in what the Captain decides to do
I find it strange that the waited so long for just nine pax, but if there were fewer pax ex FRA it might make sense from a economical point og view. Still I would think that the bill for the stranded Oneworld pax in FRA would go to AY, since their delay caused their miss cnx.
Bobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6490 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7576 times:
Quoting SASDC8 (Reply 6): Thought it might be the Captain who makes the official decision to wait or not, I would think that flight operations would have a big say in what the Captain decides to do
As far as I am aware, a Captain in the US for any US airline has no say in the decision to wait or not, as long as the aircraft has not departed. That would be a decision of the station manager and operations.
PanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7381 times:
This is a very interesting situation.
My first thought was that it happens frequently in the U.S., mostly on the last flight of the day. It's cheaper to hold a plane for a few minutes than to deal with stranded pax who miss their connection by a few minutes. It can be a tough call - exactly how long is acceptable to wait?
Besides, most passengers on the outgoing flight are not connecting at their destination, so a few minutes delay shouldn't be terribly inconvenient, and you would want it done for you, right?
With international flights, it is a different matter - for example, you might have people flying Bombay to Chicago via Frankfurt. The flight from Mumbai is delayed, and there are several passengers who are probably going to miss their connecting flight to Chicago. Do you delay that flight? It's not the same situation - there are probably more passengers connecting at Chicago than are incoming.
That's a tough call, but I go with "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
Boeing743 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 406 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 7241 times:
I have same thing as I was boarded on UA 757 from DEN-IND, it was a last flight for day. We had to wait for one woman who was late due to late arrival. Lead F/A on my flight was so angry. I think she said but not sure, "why do we have to wait for one person." I think it is waste our time as we wait on one person to board so we can departured. We probably delayed for about hour or so. As late passenger arrived, we had to show video emergency again due to FAA policy. We grouchy and complained about it. OH well FAA policy!!
I think that UA at DEN preferred to delay us so that all people to IND can leave DEN without have to pay voucher for people who was late that day.
R2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2681 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 7207 times:
Geez, I wish that one US Airways transatlantic flight had waited for me when we were delayed coming in from PIT due to a huge thunderstorm, instead of leaving me stranded in PHL... on the wrong side of the ocean!
CanadianNorth From Canada, joined Aug 2002, 3390 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 7190 times:
Quoting SASDC8 (Reply 6): I would think that flight operations would have a big say in what the Captain decides to
Quoting N587NK (Reply 9): That would be correct. Its usually an Operations/Dispatch decision
When it comes to delays for us, Ops are the people to call.
Quoting AIR757200 (Reply 8): When did cabin crew become ticket agents? That's a question that you need to direct the ground worker (ticket/gate agent), not a in-flight service crew member.
Was the flight still at the gate? Was check-in (or whatever they have there, where I work tickets, checkin and gates are all the same people so we just call them checkin) still there? If so, I think the best option would be asking the f/a if you could have a chat with them about the LH idea...
AirTran717 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 746 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7098 times:
Standard procedure for connections is this: There isn't a standard procedure. But, in general, if the airline can get you out that day, they will bump you, waive your connection, etc, in favor moving the flight on time. They don't have to put you on another airline. If there is just a few pax you are waiting on, generally they do not wait. If you have a large group, of maybe 15 or more, they wait... it all depends on the guy in operations and the decision he makes. Another factor is whether or not there IS another flight to that city that day... if not, they usually hold no matter how many... otherwise they have to put the pax up in a hotel and feed them + + +... so it's cheaper on them to delay a bit than to shell out cash.
Riddle274 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 75 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7068 times:
I recently had this situation occur on a NW flight from DTW to FLL. The F/A explained to us that first, it is not the crew's decision to wait for connecting passengers, as Bobnwa alluded to already. The airline looks at a number of factors including, but probably not limited to: the number of passengers who are running late, whether delaying the flight puts the crew at risk of timing out, whether it puts other pax at risk of missing other connections, how much of a delay will it cause on that plane's next flight, how many more flights are there to that destination that day, how many open seats are on said flights, etc. In my case, it was the last flight to FLL (departed at 9pm), crew would not time out, we were waiting for 10 people, and obviously no connections would be missed. It was only about a 25 minute delay. The F/A also said as a general rule, they will not delay a flight more than 45 minutes due to waiting for connecting pax.
Airbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8481 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6996 times:
Quoting R2rho (Reply 13): Geez, I wish that one US Airways transatlantic flight had waited for me when we were delayed coming in from PIT due to a huge thunderstorm, instead of leaving me stranded in PHL... on the wrong side of the ocean!
I had the exact opposite experice. I was on a US flight PHL-MUC, which IIRC was the last trans-atlantic flight of the day. There was a snow storm in the Northeast and lots of delayed flights so they made our flight wait for every sinlge delayed passenger that was going to Europe until the plane was completely full. We waited inside the plane for almost 3 hours.
Jbernie From Australia, joined Jan 2007, 880 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6971 times:
This is going back a bit... but in 98 I was flying LHR-SYD on QF, LHR had a good amount of fog and all sorts of flights were delayed, we sat at the gate for about an hour waiting on passengers who were flying in from Paris and got delayed. Given i was sitting in a row of four... and the only one in that row... i was sitting there waiting for them fully expecting to lose all that wonderful space.... woo! no one needed to sit there till Bangkok.
A couple of factors i could see influencing it....
- how close the crew is to timing out.
- how full the next flight(s) are
- route being travelled, a southwest every hour flight will go, a once a day long haul is more likely to wait
- whether the flight will arrive at destination after curfew, a flight arriving in the morning can wait longer
- who the passenger(s) are....a top level FF paying for a full F ticket has a better chance than someone holding the cheapest ticket on the plane.
- any other factor the airline feels to factor in, what the pilot had for lunch maybe?
I guess if you are connecting to another flight with the same airline they might be more inclined to go, if you are transferring to a different carrier, not linked by alliances, then I guess as they aren't going to be the ones compensating you etc etc they might not worry as much. In saying this though, it can be a double edged sword, you don't worry about passenger X and the $300 the other airline compensates them, but next time round that person might just fly someone else if they can and you lose alot more.
AirTran717 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 746 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6949 times:
Quoting Jbernie (Reply 21): any other factor the airline feels to factor in, what the pilot had for lunch maybe?
No, but sometimes equipment positioning plays a part... I was working a flight to DFW one night with just one paying person and the crew... only to be oversold the next morning... had they cancelled the RON would not have been there to take that flight out... another thing to think about...
KELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6407 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6922 times:
A couple of years ago, when my originating flight leaving PDX was severely delayed on HP, the gate agent took the liberty of confirming me on the last flight of the evening from PHX to ELP, but told me to try and make the original flight I was booked on. I was able to make the original connecting flight about 10 sec. before they closed the door by hoofing it through PHX... I don't know if the new US Airways would still do that for an economy passenger...
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
DABZF From Germany, joined Mar 2004, 1201 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6902 times:
Quoting Aisak (Reply 4): mmm you said the LH flight was departing 1.5 hours after AY's scheduled depature..... These 9 asian passengers couldn't have caugth that flight anayway.
... mmmm actually, they would have made the LH flight... AY flight was on a remote stand and LH was on a regular gate. At one point, about 20-25 min before the Asians arrived, the captain made an announcement that the missing passenger are at the gate but now they still need to wait for the bus. They would have had plenty of time to get them into the LH flight as AY staff could have prepared everything before hand.
... when I said "you" I meant AY in general and not F/A personally. I was just giving the hint about the possibility.
One thing I missed in my thread starter was that on the flight back (FRA-HEL) there could have been possible connections to domestic destinations ex HEL... now they, if there were any, were also delayed into HEL for about 1,5 hour and possibly missed their connections.
I like driving backwards in the fog cause it doesn't remind me of anything - Chris Cornell
: A few years ago I was going to Reno Via PHX. We got delayed going from San Diego to PHX. When we(my dad was with me) got to PHX we had to run to my ot
: Have we all put to rest the idea that pilots have anything to do with the decision to hold a flight.
: In 1991, I was travelling on PA from ZRH - JFK - ORD with my sister. At JFK, her bags came out first, so she went ahead through customs to the gate si
: I´am not sure what´s behind AY's operations. But when you follow for example the delays on AY´s morning inbound to DUS, mostly one to two hours del
: At YX, flights hold only if their are connecting passengers on an inbound up to 15 minutes later than departure time. After landing, connecting passen
: Looks to me like Air India had a mechanical or other technical problem and were lying to the passengers onboard the aircraft!!!!!!
: From experience, the new US Airways won't. In February, I was connecting through PHX to IAH. The incoming flight from OAK was 28 minutes late, and I
: I've been told many times by AA gate agents at DFW, who deal with connecting passengers on basically every single flight, that the policy for holding
: That is the "official" policy, but rarely is it followed. I've had gate agents put pax on past scheduled push time on a curfew flight. Bingo. I don't
: The same thing happened to me on August 3rd when flying OK. My wife and myself were in J class on OK619 from AMS to PRG and then connecting to OK982 P
: I've actually had my manager call ORD operations for an flight that had about 12 people connection from our flight, they told my manager "we'll keep i
: The Asia service is kind of AY's flagship product. However, most of the incoming pax are certainly neither Finns, nor Asians that want to explore the
: My understanding is that if it is the last flight to Europe, it's not that much of an exception, and it wasn't necessarily a bad experience because I
: It was probably an economic decision for Finnair to wait for the passengers... If they missed the flight, the airline would be responsible for them pu
: My question is do you know they acutally missed their connection - or that the schedule departure time of the connecting flights was missed? Since yo
: ... yes they really did miss the MK flight. I was on the same monorail with them from T2 to T1 and we actually saw the jetway pulling away from the M
: I've been one of these pax before, on Finnair, coming from Shanghai (PVG). In the end the flight had to leave so I was put on the next BA flight. Fin
: Well, there aren't set procedures for this kind of thing, only general ones. No two delays or connections will ever be the same. So you can't dictate
: I remember twice on "CBS Amazing Race" that a team was eliminated because their connecting flight did not wait for them. The pilots clearly are the on
: The first problem is that if Finnair were to reprotect those nine passengers onto the LH flight, that would count as an involuntary rerouting, which w
: Why do passengers always think that they are fooled? Why would they lie about it? "Delayed due to late arrival" is IMO a valid reason. In this case y
: As stated previously, pilots have next to zero say in holding an airplane for passengers. They get paid to fly the airplane, not to determine company
: You hit on one part of the reason, on time stats are very important to airlines. That's another really big part of the equation. Maverick pretty much
: From the original post: Seems to answer your question with a yes - they had to wait on the aircraft for 90 minutes during the delay.
: In the case of HAM, flights are rarely delayed due to late Asian inbounds, broken Embraers are a bigger part of the problem. Generally, flights from
: Very true, beware of Alitalia. Notorious for holding back their last flights of the day (who are in fact scheduled to over-night to destination) out
: ... I assume it was booked on a single ticket. Ticket was issued by a travel agent. On a slightly different note... it seems that travel agencies ver