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KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?  
User currently offlineTomascubero From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2005, 525 posts, RR: 9
Posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 9013 times:

Hi Guys,

Well quite a surprise for me since I saw them come into SJO before PTY (or at least AF), but here it is:

http://aeronautica.gob.pa/index.php?..._content&task=view&id=378&Itemid=1

(In Spanish Only)

A Translation from me:

The imminent increase that the aviation industry promotes is shown with the arrival of KLM to Panama again, which will offer direct flights from Europe, as informed by the Civil Aeronautical Authority (AAC).

Conversations have been kept with Roeland Klaveren of KLM and its estimated they will start flights by next October.

The airline KLM suspended its operations in Panama 3 years ago and now the economical stability and trust the country offers has attracted KLM to reactivate its flights.

The flights between Amsterdam and Panama will be non-stop and the KLM executives have recieved all the paperwork from the Civil Aeronautical Authority for the start of this route.

Good news for Panama and bad news for SJO which is just sinking lower and lower, and if CAFTA doesn't go through, we are in an even bigger mess.

Saludos  Smile
Tomas.

34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLuisca From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8911 times:

Great news, it might have something to do with Panama being designated a Home Port for cruises by Royal Caribbean, also announced this week.

Quoting Tomascubero (Thread starter):
Good news for Panama and bad news for SJO which is just sinking lower and lower, and if CAFTA doesn't go through, we are in an even bigger mess.

Costa Rica is still light years away from Panama in tourism infrastructure, but Panama is catching up and fast, and they also have a more developed business oriented economy. Costa Rica needs some serious structural reforms, for example it takes you 6 months to get a cell phone line due to the government monopoly But that is a topic for another thread.

Do you think they will codeshare with CM?


User currently offlineTomascubero From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2005, 525 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 8839 times:

Quoting Luisca (Reply 1):
Costa Rica is still light years away from Panama in tourism infrastructure, but Panama is catching up and fast, and they also have a more developed business oriented economy.

Totally agree with you on the business economy, but do you really think we are very far from Panama in tourism? I mean as a local I've heard of packages to Bocas del Toro and Isla Contadora and thats about it. Here in Costa Rica there are just thousands of opportunities for torusim, and its quite eviden that Liberia is a purely tourist-oriented airport. Also, stand in the airport exit at SJO and you can see how all the foreigners come ready for a tour, dressed tropically and/or have tour operators waiting for them.

I have never been to Panama so I can't judge that but tourism is one of, if not, the largest income generators for Costa Rica.

Quoting Luisca (Reply 1):
Costa Rica needs some serious structural reforms, for example it takes you 6 months to get a cell phone line due to the government monopoly

LOL that was a funny time, I remember when there were no GSM lines for almost 2 years and I was lucky enough yo had gotten one from before. All my friends had to cope with TDMA lines and old phones. Apart from that, a lot of the things here are slow, starting with SJO...

But lets not get carried away!

Quoting Luisca (Reply 1):
Do you think they will codeshare with CM?

Definetly, well I guess another factor for KLM starting service to PTY is because of SkyTeam and Copa's prompt intergration with SkyTeam. Codeshares literally a give away if you think about this.

Regards,
Tomas.


User currently offlineLuisca From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 8836 times:

Quoting Tomascubero (Reply 2):
Totally agree with you on the business economy, but do you really think we are very far from Panama in tourism? I mean as a local I've heard of packages to Bocas del Toro and Isla Contadora and thats about it. Here in Costa Rica there are just thousands of opportunities for torusim, and its quite eviden that Liberia is a purely tourist-oriented airport. Also, stand in the airport exit at SJO and you can see how all the foreigners come ready for a tour, dressed tropically and/or have tour operators waiting for them.

I have never been to Panama so I can't judge that but tourism is one of, if not, the largest income generators for Costa Rica.

You mis interpreted me! I meant that Costa Rica Is Light Years MORE advanced than panama; Sorry for the confusion.

My point was that I read in an article that at the rate that tourism is growing in Panama and the massive amount of raw MONEY that panama has if CR doesn't do something Panama could pass their tourism number in 12-15 years. Panama has more than 20 Billion dollars in investments ligned up in the next 5 years, Costa Rica is still debating whether or not to sign an treaty they agreed to almost 3 years ago and that everybody else including Panama (unilaterally and away from CAFTA) has signed.

Look at how Royal Caribbean chose panama over Costa Rica as a home port, at the fact that over 30 hotels will be built in Panama in the next 2 years and you will see my point that Panama will catch up and pass Costa Rica in the next 15-20 years unless the Ticos do something and get their $hit together and reform their economy which is stuck in the 1960s.

[Edited 2007-08-09 05:22:24]

User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4513 posts, RR: 72
Reply 4, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 8718 times:

Final decision for AMS PTY has not yet been made, although it is indeed very likely to happen. Also, it remains as per yet unclear whether the route will be served nonstop or with an intermediate stop in the Caribbean, which would most likely occur in BON.

User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4584 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 8690 times:

Quoting Tomascubero (Thread starter):
The imminent increase that the aviation industry promotes is shown with the arrival of KLM to Panama again, which will offer direct flights from Europe

In our region, flights to Europe in Sky Team airlines usually depart from the U.S.A., Mexico, Venezuela and Colombia.
Those Central American passengers who hasn´t got any U.S. Visa are moving mostly to CCS in order to take their next plane to Europe: AF (CCS-CDG) and AZ (CCS-MXP). The first step to Venezuela is usually covered by TA meaning reduced waiting time in CCS.
Regarding the Sky Team network schedule, KL does not operate CCS-AMS...
If (PTY-AMS) and vice versa starts operations, those "Sky Team passengers" coming from GUA, SAL, TGU, SAP, MGA and SJO may certainly find a better gate-away to Europe through PTY.
CM may work as the air carrier for those in-transit passengers making the first leg: (Rest of Central America)-PTY
Mind CM is a potential candidate to become a Sky Team member as KL already is...
Regards.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4584 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 8643 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 4):
the route will be served nonstop or with an intermediate stop in the Caribbean, which would most likely occur in BON.

I believe the route may operate as nonstop.
KL needs a dedicate PTY-AMS to response mainly to:
1. AZ (CCS-MXP)
2. AF (CCS-CDG)
3. IB (SJO-MAD)

and any others...



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4513 posts, RR: 72
Reply 7, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 8595 times:

I find the title of this thread misleading at best. KLM didn't announce anything whatsoever and while it is true that the PTY service is under consideration, it is by no means a given yet the title suggests that KLM has already announced it. This thread is not based on a KLM announcement but on a local publication in Panama.

User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8424 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 4):
Final decision for AMS PTY has not yet been made

Is it more likely than AMS-EZE? What is the status of that route; possible but unlikely?


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 9, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8401 times:

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 8):
Is it more likely than AMS-EZE? What is the status of that route; possible but unlikely?

KLM is also studying AMS-GIG or AMS-REC or even AMS-GIG-EZE. There are many routes and posssibilities but no final decision. GIG would bring excellent results to AMS as well, since both are oil routes, but AF double daily flights to GIG could deter KLM.

Rgs,


User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8362 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 9):
AMS-GIG-EZE

I assume this only would make sense if they can get the rights to sell tickets on the EZE-GIG leg.
I don't know the economics of this route, but I found it hard to get a cheap ticket for this route during July of this year. In the end I went for JJ but that was more due to the fact they allowed me to fly GRU-COR as the return leg for EZE-GIG which is quite a open-jaw if you ask me Big grin


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 11, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8243 times:

GIG is a route bringing excellent results for AF (a top performer) and I have no doubts KLM would make good profits operating AMS-GIG or AMS-GIG-EZE A330, with 5th freedom rights.

Rgs,


User currently offlineAF086 From France, joined Jan 2007, 1062 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8238 times:

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 10):
I assume this only would make sense if they can get the rights to sell tickets on the EZE-GIG leg.

Airlines usually manage do get 5th freedom rights for these legs so I guess KL would as well.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 9):
AF double daily flights to GIG could deter KLM.

If the second AF flight to GIG performs well the next natual step is KL returning there. As for REC I think it would be more likely an AF return over a KL service since there's more O & D traffic between north/northeast Brazil (and perhaps BSB) and France and also the CDG hub provides plenty of connections.



Please insert a "smart" joke here.
User currently offlineUPPERDECKFAN From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8218 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 4):
Also, it remains as per yet unclear whether the route will be served nonstop or with an intermediate stop in the Caribbean, which would most likely occur in BON.

If KL wants to keep non-stops to AMS from the three ABC islands, the one to BON has to continue elsewhere since Bonaire is too small a market to sustain a point-to-point to AMS.

Local authorities in Bonaire have been giving incentives to KL to stay there.



744,742,741,772,773,762,732,735,738,752,727,717,DC10,DC9,M82,M87,319,320,321,343,346,L1011,CRJ2,CRJ9,E190,ATR42,DSH8,
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4513 posts, RR: 72
Reply 14, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8176 times:

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 13):
If KL wants to keep non-stops to AMS from the three ABC islands

The Ecuador flights continue to stop over in BON six times weekly, but BON has recently lost the LIM flights when LIM went nonstop, so it wouldn't be out of the ordinary to see any expansion in the region operate via BON as well.


User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8153 times:

Quoting Luisca (Reply 1):
Do you think they will codeshare with CM?

Most likely yes, and KL surely will try to arrive/depart at CM hub hours.

Quoting Tomascubero (Reply 2):
LOL that was a funny time, I remember when there were no GSM lines for almost 2 years and I was lucky enough yo had gotten one from before. All my friends had to cope with TDMA lines and old phones. Apart from that, a lot of the things here are slow, starting with SJO...

A bit off topic, but just as an interesting fact: Panamanian cellular do have rooming in CR, getting a cellular in Panama just takes minutes. If the Panamanian rooming charges for use in Costa Rica were affordable, thousands of TIcos would be getting Panamanian mobiles for use in their country.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 4):
Final decision for AMS PTY has not yet been made, although it is indeed very likely to happen. Also, it remains as per yet unclear whether the route will be served nonstop or with an intermediate stop in the Caribbean, which would most likely occur in BON.

Both CUR and AUA has been wishing for a CM flight for years, If the AMS flight has to be via one of the Dutch Caribbean islands and will be code-shared w/CM, AUA, CUR or even SXM might be better stops than BON.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 7):
This thread is not based on a KLM announcement but on a local publication in Panama.

It's not a local publication, is a press release from the Panama Civil Aviation Authority. Still not that reliable, the same Panamanian authority that said CM is to fly DAV-MIA, while CM still can't get the numbers right for such a flight.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineLamedianaranja From Venezuela, joined Nov 2004, 1246 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 8032 times:

It would be very nice to open PTY but when oh when will KL re-open CCS? Has anybody heard anything?

A cabincrew member told me he was informed about this happening in summer08 but I haven't heard anything since.

I'm in CCS currently and I'm really enjoying the view from the beach in the afternoon as the prevailing winds are NE (rare) and the big ones coming in from Europe pass right over my private piece of beach on their approach to CCS airport. Paradise!



I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 8018 times:

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 16):
It would be very nice to open PTY but when oh when will KL re-open CCS? Has anybody heard anything?

A cabincrew member told me he was informed about this happening in summer08 but I haven't heard anything since.

I've been talking to an AF crew-member and he said that the AF/KL policy for South America is not to have too many outstations that are served by both carriers. Off course this makes a lot of sense. We are now talking about opening CCS, GIG and EZE; destinations that could all work very well for KL, but already served by AF.


User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4584 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 7930 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 4):
Also, it remains as per yet unclear whether the route will be served nonstop or with an intermediate stop in the Caribbean, which would most likely occur in BON.



Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 13):
If KL wants to keep non-stops to AMS from the three ABC islands, the one to BON has to continue elsewhere since Bonaire is too small a market to sustain a point-to-point to AMS.



Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 14):
The Ecuador flights continue to stop over in BON six times weekly

So, that means a possible nonstop AMS-PTY due BON may not support a possible AMS-BON-PTY.
KL operates a daily CUR-AMS.
KL operates AUA-AMS two days a week.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 7902 times:

BON alone will support a once weekly AMS flight provided KL gets a couple of contracts with tour operators for x number of seats per flights. But if so was the case, BON would more likely need MP than KL.


I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineAUA747 From Aruba, joined Jul 2006, 136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 7885 times:

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 18):
KL operates AUA-AMS two days a week.

4 times a week


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 21, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 7828 times:

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 16):
It would be very nice to open PTY but when oh when will KL re-open CCS?

CCS is now AF business.

I think PTY is being considered in tandem with GIG, EZE and REC. Of course, decision time will come.

Rgs,


User currently offlineRootsAir From Costa Rica, joined Feb 2005, 4186 posts, RR: 40
Reply 22, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 7798 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 4):
nal decision for AMS PTY has not yet been made, although it is indeed very likely to happen. Also, it remains as per yet unclear whether the route will be served nonstop or with an intermediate stop in the Caribbean, which would most likely occur in BON.

KL tro PTY before SJO is purely because CM is part of skyTeam and CM gives excellent connections !
 airplane  wave 



A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4513 posts, RR: 72
Reply 23, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 7213 times:

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 16):
It would be very nice to open PTY but when oh when will KL re-open CCS?

I doubt this will happen any time soon. KLM has enough fish to fry as it is and with a net widebody fleet increase of just 3 units (2 B77W and 1 A332) in 2008 plus a continiung flow of B744/74E frames going in for a lengthy D-check, there is little room for expansion. Part of the available capacity will be invested in frequency reinforcements (PVG, HYD, LIM, CPT all go up in frequency next summer compared to this summer), which realistically leaves room for just a single new destination, unless KLM decides to pull some of the current reinforcements, and I could indeed envisage the LAX and/or YYZ seasonal additions not returning next summer.

That said, I don't think that CCS is far up the list of KLM's priorities for expansion. AF has a daily B744 there and that should do, as it goes. There are plenty of other projects that would fit much better in the AF/KL synergy being looked at, at the moment. I put my money on one additional North America destination for next summer...


User currently offlineLuisca From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 7157 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 23):

Do you think that if the PTY route goes ahead they will operate it with a 772 or a A332? via PTY KL can offer through CM codeshares 1 stop service to SJO, GUA, SAP, TGU, SAL, CLO, MDE!


25 HB-IWC : My money for such a flight is on the MD11.
26 UPPERDECKFAN : AF have been switching CCS between B744 and A343 over the last 2 years, is the A343 bound to comeback to CCS on low season?
27 SJOtoLIR : Interesting ! KL operates AMS - (AUA, BON, CUR) with their MD11...
28 Bongo : Well, that gives me (and all people from Colombia, besides Bogota) a new option to go COL-EUROPE. since I´d rather choose MDE-PTY-AMS instead of MDE-
29 UPPERDECKFAN : What about MDE-CCS-europe?, there are much more options thru CCS (AF/AZ/TP/IB/UX/S3/LH) than either BOG or PTY
30 Luisca : Trip time is shorter if you connect in PTY or BOG, also it is much more convenient. It is true that CCS has more options, but CCS is a pain in the re
31 UPPERDECKFAN : Why do you think it is? I can't compare with PTY because have never been there, but what I know us that CCS has been improved a lot over the last cou
32 Summa767 : CCS would certainly be a more geographically logical option. However, the fact of the matter is that there are no current flights MDE-CCS, as Aeropos
33 Hardiwv : You said everything. So lets hold our breath for any expansion wishes. Rgs,
34 LipeGIG : Considering that AF at first time decided to run GIG second flight 6x weekly and further upgrade to double daily, and now already upload the flight a
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