Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Air France May Return To Pakistan  
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8730 times:

Air France are rumored to be planning resuming Pakistan services from April 2008, they had ended passenger flights to Karachi in winter 1994 and Cargo services in summer 2001.

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMk777 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1195 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8698 times:

Is the rumour going to turn to an actual flight!!!

I guess if it does, then we can see CDG-KHI or CDG-ISB service?? Most probably served by an A343??

But first, the rumour has to become a real fact  Smile



come fly with me
User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4746 posts, RR: 43
Reply 2, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8421 times:

I honestly doubt that it would be a nonstop terminator CDG-KHI flight due to overnight layover security concerns for AF's cabin crew hence I feel two options would be considered by AF :

1. Extend one of the double daily DXB flights to KHI

OR

2. Have a triangular routing i.e. CDG-KHI-ISB-CDG with an A 332 or A 343


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5922 posts, RR: 40
Reply 3, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8374 times:

whats so special with Pakistan right now? I assuem the problem that PIA has on the europe bound flights is the key factor european players will come back to Pakistan?


Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4746 posts, RR: 43
Reply 4, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8325 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 3):
whats so special with Pakistan right now?

Travel to and from Pakistan has been at an all time high since 2003 and due to the lack of nonstop flights to mainland EU from the country as well as one stop flights to USA/Canada (apart from NYC and YYZ), there is a huge void in the market to fill.

In France, you have 80,000 Pakistanis, Italy has over 55,000, OSL has 40-50,000 alone, Spain has over 45,000, UK has 700,000, USA has 1.1 million and Canada 300,000. These are the main target markets for AF & LH to capture from PAK as BA mainly focuses on USA/CANADA and O&D from LHR to ISB only.

Yield to KHI may be low but to LHE & ISB, its extremely high for all airlines!


User currently offlinePlanetime From Singapore, joined Mar 2006, 719 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 8222 times:

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 4):
In France, you have 80,000 Pakistanis, Italy has over 55,000, OSL has 40-50,000 alone, Spain has over 45,000, UK has 700,000, USA has 1.1 million and Canada 300,000.

US has 1.1 million Pakistani People and 3/4 flights on 777's by PIA to serve them. Really a shame that PIA has not been able to exploit this market.


User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4385 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8151 times:

PK has dropped off destinations and some European carriers are planning to return to Pakistan: AF, LH.
Any intention from PK to stop operations in CDG?



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlineEYFlyer88 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8046 times:

It would be interesting to see AF back in KHI.. Lets just wait and see...


There is no sport equal to that which aviators enjoy while being carried through the air on great white wings. - Wilbur
User currently offlineThering From Brazil, joined Jun 2006, 530 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8043 times:

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 1):
Most probably served by an A343??



Quoting Behramjee (Reply 2):
with an A 332 or A 343

Where are good long-haul 160-180 seaters on this moments?? We just don't have any brand new any more. Good for the used 762s!! A 332 or 334 I think will be too much capacity.

[Edited 2007-08-13 04:38:36]


146 319 320 321 332 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 742 743 744 762 763 772 773 CRJ ER4 100 F50 F27 M11 D10
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9488 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8001 times:

It sounds like a great opportunity for AF to get back into Pakistan. The country is growing and has a national carrier that is suffering and can't provide enough service. If there is a market, then AF should jump into it. Connections only can probably support a route since the United States is lacking service now with the pullback of PIA. It would be great to see AF expand. It is a great airline in a great position and most importantly it is a safe airline to fly.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7810 times:

Rumored that PIA will drop Paris, according to an insider AF service to Pakistan is about 60% certain.

User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4385 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7779 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 10):
Rumored that PIA will drop Paris, according to an insider AF service to Pakistan is about 60% certain.

A similar resemblance: LH resumes service to Pakistan as PIA dropped FRA.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7607 times:

PIA have also dropped Amsterdam, so maybe KLM would be the operating carrier.

User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11611 posts, RR: 60
Reply 13, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7600 times:

Quoting Thering (Reply 8):
Where are good long-haul 160-180 seaters on this moments?? We just don't have any brand new any more. Good for the used 762s!! A 332 or 334 I think will be too much capacity.

They could easily fill a 332 or 343 so long as the prices are competitive. The feeder traffic from LHR, BHX, MAN etc... would be considerable, especially with the cut back in services by PIA.


Dan Smile



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineHUYfan From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 1405 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7558 times:

I would bank on KL rather than AF service to Pakistan. Karachi and Lahore.

Regards

Mike


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 15, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7544 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 13):
I would bank on KL rather than AF service to Pakistan. Karachi and Lahore.

 checkmark ....though I've been fortunate to fly on both KL and AF many times to KHI..... Smile

Once however, I flew on a KL B742 KHI-AMS with only about 45 pax on board.... spin 



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineKHI747 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 1615 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks ago) and read 7480 times:

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 2):
I honestly doubt that it would be a nonstop terminator CDG-KHI flight due to overnight layover security concerns for AF's cabin crew hence I feel two options would be considered by AF :

1. Extend one of the double daily DXB flights to KHI

OR

2. Have a triangular routing i.e. CDG-KHI-ISB-CDG with an A 332 or A 343

I agree 100%.Thats exactly what i was thinking they will have to do as layover for crew is entirely unlikely in KHI hence no chance of a KHI terminator.

But lets analyse both routing scenarios:

1, It doesnt have to be DXB,i feel any of the other GCC routes can be extended to KHI.This would also mean that AF will have 5th freedom as did LX right before they axed KHI in 2004.Keep in mind that AF's previous service to KHI was also via AUH.By extending a Gulf service to KHI,AF will have to commit a certain number of seats to this city but what has to be kept in mind is that the yields of any GCC city are much higher then KHI.Unless its having trouble filling its existing services to DXB or AUH,it makes very little sense for AF to sell the same seats to KHI pax for alot less money.I feel LX was the same case,they were better off filling their planes with only DXB pax hence they discontinued extending even 4 of its 7 weekly DXB flights to KHI.

So unless AF's loads to a certain GCC city are suffering,i dont think they will extend any flight to KHI even though it will be logistically,practically very easy to do so and it will completely sort out the issue of crew layovers and the save the airline the substantial costs associated with it.

2, Triangular routing is an interesting idea and its what SQ has been using here with some success and now LH is set to restart Pakistan with exactly this kind of routing serving KHI and LHE.I think such types of routing will be more popular with LHE pax then KHI.I feel pax from KHI would much rather fly via DXB or DOH or AUH (then LHE!) as thats the other natural option available for westbound passengers by way of flying gulf based carriers such as EK,EY,QR etc.Furthermore with PIA's continuous weakening-KHI is becoming,if its hasnt already,the domain the of the gulf based carriers anyway.With their ever increasing frequencies and extensive connectivity options,coupled with relatively lower fares and beautiful inflight product-i dont think the gulf carriers will leave much room for European airlines here.


Quoting Behramjee (Reply 4):
Yield to KHI may be low but to LHE & ISB, its extremely high for all airlines!

I dont agree however with the notion that yields for LHE and ISB are somehow 'extremely' high.ISB has a certain amount of high yield pax but that market is completely catered for by BA.Outside of that there is the normal low yield stuff similar to KHI.As far as LHE is concerned,im amazed how you would even arrive at that conclusion.The premium class fares from Lahore are'nt that much higher then KHI but are definately much lower then somewhere like DXB to any point in Europe.

All in all,i would be thrilled if AF were to re start Pakistan,but for all the factors that the European airlines left KHI-i dont think enough has changed that will warrant a sudden return by a 2nd major airline after LH.


User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4746 posts, RR: 43
Reply 17, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 7440 times:

Quoting KHI747 (Reply 16):
I dont agree however with the notion that yields for LHE and ISB are somehow 'extremely' high.ISB has a certain amount of high yield pax but that market is completely catered for by BA.Outside of that there is the normal low yield stuff similar to KHI.As far as LHE is concerned,im amazed how you would even arrive at that conclusion.

FYI...airlines charge much higher fares up to US$ 100 for flying to Northern Pakistan than to KHI so the yield in Economy class is much higher than it is for KHI because demand is greater but supply of seats is less i.e. less competition from LHE than from KHI.

FYI...all the Gulf carriers have made profits flying to LHE/ISB but some like QR/GF lose money on the KHI route.

Yes J class fares maybe cheap out of LHE, but the extra yield obtained from the economy class cabin is a lot for the Arab airlines and PIA.


User currently offlineKHI747 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 1615 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 7419 times:

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 17):
FYI...airlines charge much higher fares up to US$ 100 for flying to Northern Pakistan than to KHI so the yield in Economy class is much higher than it is for KHI because demand is greater but supply of seats is less i.e. less competition from LHE than from KHI.



Quoting Behramjee (Reply 17):
FYI...all the Gulf carriers have made profits flying to LHE/ISB but some like QR/GF lose money on the KHI route.

Well you have to consider that LHE/ISB are twice as far from the Gulf then KHI,hence the fare difference.Its not because the market of LHE is particularly higher yielding then KHI.

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 17):
Yes J class fares maybe cheap out of LHE,

My friend,J class is where the airlines make most of their money from and its the action in the premium classes that separates a low yield route from a high yield route.So just like KHI,the fares for LHE J class are very low and the volumes even at those prices isnt huge.As for F class,no airline even offers it to any city in Pakistan except BA to ISB.This is why Pakistan overall is a low yielding country for airlines-LHE might have slightly better yields then KHI as you say but it would still be considered a low yield route from the perspective of a foreign airline.


User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4746 posts, RR: 43
Reply 19, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7274 times:

Its going to be most likely CDG-KHI-ISB-CDG 3 times a week with an A 332 or A 343 according to American Express Travel Islamabad branch.

AF in ISB is targetting the NGO, embassy, political traffic as well as French business interests in the city as a majority of Frenchmen/french companies who have operations in Pakistan base their head offices in ISB. AF will also get a decent amount of O&D traffic on its CDG-PAK-CDG route along with plenty of feed from UK, Spain, USA, YYZ, YUL, OSL, CPH, & AMS.

[Edited 2007-08-15 18:07:21]

User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7267 times:

Quoting KHI747 (Reply 16):
Keep in mind that AF's previous service to KHI was also via AUH

No it was via Dubai.

Quoting KHI747 (Reply 16):
It doesnt have to be DXB,i feel any of the other GCC routes can be extended to KHI

AF only operate to Dubai, Jeddah and Riyadh in GCC. JED and RUH are now A319LR.

They dropped Kuwait and Abu Dhabi and only operate Cargo flights to those two, Doha was with A319LR and was dropped also, Bahrain is Cargo only, I doubt they would extend non GCC Tehran A332 or Beirut 772/77W services to KHI.

Through KLM they have a greater option and could extend Dammam, Bahrain, Kuwait, Muscat which is resuming, Dubai, Doha and Abu Dhabi services to Pakistan.


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 7117 times:

British Airways are expected to reveal something regrading new plans for Pakistan some time in the near future according to a poster at another board.

User currently offlineKHI747 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 1615 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 7010 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 21):
British Airways are expected to reveal something regrading new plans for Pakistan some time in the near future according to a poster at another board.

I think that whichever European airlines are considering a return to Pakistan will be looking at LHE more then any other city.As i said before,KHI is now the domain of the GCC airlines and it works well for passengers here.As a result not much room left for European airlines.

However flights to Northern Pakistan (LHE/ISB) are somewhat capped for GCC airlines and the frequencies offered are much less then KHI.At the same time there has been significant economic growth in the LHE area and there are several smaller industrial towns nearby which also use LHE airport.Hence the chances of European airlines introducing flights to Lahore are greater then any other city of Pakistan and perhaps thats exactly what BA is about to tell us,assuming they have some new plans for Pakistan.


User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4746 posts, RR: 43
Reply 23, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6843 times:

Quoting KHI747 (Reply 22):
I think that whichever European airlines are considering a return to Pakistan will be looking at LHE more then any other city.As i said before,KHI is now the domain of the GCC airlines and it works well for passengers here.

indeed  Smile

Quoting KHI747 (Reply 22):
However flights to Northern Pakistan (LHE/ISB) are somewhat capped for GCC airlines and the frequencies offered are much less then KHI.At the same time there has been significant economic growth in the LHE area and there are several smaller industrial towns nearby which also use LHE airport.

cargo especially from LHE airport is booming for nearly all airlines...most of it is trucked from Faisalabad, Sialkot and Multan.

Quoting KHI747 (Reply 22):
perhaps thats exactly what BA is about to tell us,assuming they have some new plans for Pakistan.

hopefully  Smile ...they can fly to LHE 4 times a week maximum as per UK-PAK bilateral accord.


Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Air France 777-300 To JFK May 10th? posted Sun May 9 2004 18:00:41 by AA 777
Air France May Start Services To Guangzhou posted Fri Jun 20 2003 18:46:03 by Hkg82
Air France May Decrease Flights To Amman, Damascus posted Sat Oct 20 2001 14:19:47 by 777-500ER
Air France New Service To Dzaoudzi With KQ posted Wed Jun 6 2007 18:12:21 by Jimyvr
Air Canada A340 Return To YYC? Possible Emergency? posted Mon Dec 25 2006 00:18:08 by Vio
Air France Régional - What To Expect? posted Thu Nov 23 2006 08:20:04 by Djb77
Air France Fall Schedule To US posted Wed Sep 20 2006 23:25:55 by Cba
Air France Going A319LR To Jeddah posted Wed Sep 20 2006 20:17:52 by 777way
Air France Schedule Changes To The Middle East posted Tue Jul 25 2006 21:02:55 by Horus
Finally, Air France 777-300ER To LAX posted Tue Jan 10 2006 06:52:26 by Kaitak744
Air France 777-300 To JFK May 10th? posted Sun May 9 2004 18:00:41 by AA 777
Air France May Start Services To Guangzhou posted Fri Jun 20 2003 18:46:03 by Hkg82
Air France May Decrease Flights To Amman, Damascus posted Sat Oct 20 2001 14:19:47 by 777-500ER
Air France Flies A319 To AUH? posted Mon Sep 12 2011 23:17:08 by Tolosy
Air France KLM: Cuts To Costs And Capacity posted Mon Sep 5 2011 13:45:25 by LHRFlyer
TAP May Return To TLV posted Fri Feb 12 2010 09:13:30 by IAD380
Air France Ask Delta To Help On Safety Practices posted Wed Sep 16 2009 06:53:26 by NYCAdvantage
Air France Blocking Access To Their Website? posted Fri May 1 2009 08:22:15 by PlymSpotter
Air France Plans Flights To Pune / Kolkata posted Mon Oct 20 2008 05:23:27 by SPR773