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The Skywest (USA) Brasilia Thread  
User currently offlineBoston92 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 7
Posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3963 times:

How old are the aircraft? When will the time come to replace some of them (some are getting pretty old and broken). The last one I was on was missing an overhead bin and three or four armrests.

Why dont other airlines operate the E120? It seems much better than the Dash 8 and Saab340.

Have there been any major problems with them (three times ago, the number two engine would not start and we were on the ground for an hour before deplaning and re-booking).

What do you guys think of the aircraft?


"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
48 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineB52overSMF From United States of America, joined May 2007, 36 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3949 times:

I don't know just how true this actually is but when I worked on the ramp I was chatting with some Skywest pilots about the EMB 120 and they were talking about how the plane isn't all that efficient. More specifically they mentioned it's thrust to lift ratio and the fact that they fly pretty high in the RPM settings to keep the thing moving. I have no idea how true or untrue this is.I'm really just spreading potentially bad gossip here.  Wink

User currently offlineGraphic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3949 times:

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
Why dont other airlines operate the E120? It seems much better than the Dash 8 and Saab340.

Not sure about the Saab, but the Dash is a much better hot-and-high performer, hence the E120s being taken out of regular rotations to the mountain towns from the DEN hub.


User currently offlineSNCntry32 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1520 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3943 times:

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):

Why dont other airlines operate the E120? It seems much better than the Dash 8 and Saab340.

I also heard the Saab is a butter airframe from some XJ pilots. When 9E operated the Saab, it was the 'weapon of choice' for most pilots. Everyone around MSP seems to love the Saab's, except the passengers..



Long Live Memphis!
User currently offlineOsprey88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 330 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3933 times:

Originally, I think these aircraft were put into OO's fleet to provide a high number of flights to regional destinations to give the passenger a large number of times to choose from. Now though, I think that their fleet of 120s has become more of a hassle than it is worth and would really like to see OO replace these with Q400s which would be more efficient and (in my view) more comfortable.


"Reading departure signs in some big airports reminds me of the places I've been"
User currently offlineATAIndy From United States of America, joined May 2004, 610 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3901 times:

Quoting B52overSMF (Reply 1):
I have no idea how true or untrue this is.I'm really just spreading potentially bad gossip here.

Uh-oh, that's always a "good" conversation starter, lol.  wink 



Boiler up! - Next flights: IND-DFW-AUS, AUS-DFW-IND
User currently offlineWhatUsaid From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 667 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3901 times:

At one time, I remember one of the Mgt team at Skywest saying they were looking at ERJ-135's as a possible replacements. Those days are long gone, given the economics of today. Frequency was the marketing goal at the time, thus the need (then and I would expect today) to remain under 50 pax given the limited traffic in a number of these markets. Frequencies have come down, but I would expect the 120's to rattle around the West for many years to come.

Will we ever see a Q400 flying for Skywest? I doubt it, not in their UAX colors out of SFO or LAX.


User currently offlineBoston92 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3852 times:

Quoting WhatUsaid (Reply 6):
but I would expect the 120's to rattle around the West for many years to come.

Good. For the west, I can not imagine any better aircraft. They interior is not bad also. The ceiling is an estimated 5'8"+ and the seats are pretty comfortable, especially the lone seat in A. The 120's are faster than any other US Airline turboprop, and do not normally (in any of my flights) have that many MX problems.

As for Hot and High, I did not really notice anything different when I landed or tookoff from RNO a couple days ago. RNO and DEN are at about the same elevation, right?

Also, the E120's are a big moneymaker I would assume. They really do not burn that much fuel on any of the short LAX-XXX or SFO-XXX flights.

The E120 also battles wind and rough air better than ANY other aircraft below the size of a 757. One time I remember taking of from SBP with 60 MPH SUSTAINED winds and gusts of up to 80 MPH and the plane moved around barely anything. I was watching the Saab340 land before we took off, and it did not look very fun. When landing in SFO, we again felt barely anything, but when I left SFO an hour later on a larger A320, we were moved around pretty good up there.

Long live the E120.



"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3810 times:

The EMB120 is basically a bumblebee. Short, stubby, but as durable as anything ever built, and can fly when most people think it can't. Also, the buzz from both can be heard from great distances...  rotfl 

For United Express, it is the perfect plane for California - very few high airports (although the central valley summers can be gruesome!!) and small enough to offer flexible times and schedules, but large enough to actually be semi-comfortable (as opposed to a metroliner). In fact, I mentioned once that California is where all 120's will come to die - sort of the elephant graveyard...but in a nice way.

If it were not for the 120, airports such as BFL, VIS, or MOD might not have any service at all. In 1999, after AA pulled out of BFL, UA Express was the only airline left there, soldiering on to SFO and LAX. Now, even with all the competition (such as it is), the 120 is still the perfect plane for these routes.

I wouldn't want to fly cross country on one, but for short hops, they're just fine.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineRCoulter From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3791 times:

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 7):
RNO and DEN are at about the same elevation, right?

DEN is 5431
RNO is 4415ft


User currently offlineGraphic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3776 times:

Quoting Osprey88 (Reply 4):
Now though, I think that their fleet of 120s has become more of a hassle than it is worth and would really like to see OO replace these with Q400s which would be more efficient and (in my view) more comfortable.

That would make no sense whatsoever.


User currently offlineOsprey88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 330 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3754 times:

Quoting Graphic (Reply 10):
That would make no sense whatsoever.

What makes you say that?

Looking at the California market where most of the 120s are used, why wouldn't the Q400 be a good choice? Take for example the SFO-SBA. Today their are 10 flights using the 120s. With 30 seats per 120 that is 300 seats total to SFO. If OO used a Q400 on this route today, why couldn't they run 4 flights which would equal 296 seats (74 X 4=296) to SFO. Using this plan of fewer flights, they would need fewer aircraft overall which could reduce maintenance and fuel costs.

Or am I missing something?



"Reading departure signs in some big airports reminds me of the places I've been"
User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6072 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3754 times:

Most of these Brasilias are less than 10 years old. There's no real sense in getting rid of them. Hell, look at Northwest and their DC-9's.  Smile

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 7):
The 120's are faster than any other US Airline turboprop

Not as fast as the Q400, but is faster than most other turboprops. You have to remember that the E120 was designed in the early 80's, and the Q400 was designed in the late 90's.



Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlineBoston92 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3714 times:

Quoting Osprey88 (Reply 11):
Today their are 10 flights using the 120s. With 30 seats per 120 that is 300 seats total to SFO. If OO used a Q400 on this route today, why couldn't they run 4 flights which would equal 296 seats (74 X 4=296) to SFO.

Exactly...that is the point of the Brasilia. To have a lot of frequency but efficiant as any other aircraft.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 12):
Most of these Brasilias are less than 10 years old. There's no real sense in getting rid of them.

Thank you. I never really meant this thread to be a "replacement" thread. Just interested in the avg age and when and what would be a good aircraft to replace it with.



"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
User currently offlineSpencerII From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3699 times:

I remember when OO ran that from SLC to SNA & LAX to TEX Both were horrible flights.

User currently offlineOsprey88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 330 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3688 times:

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 13):
Exactly...that is the point of the Brasilia. To have a lot of frequency but efficient as any other aircraft.

But what is more beneficial to an airlines revenue? Having lots of aircraft and more frequency or having fewer aircraft and less frequency?

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 13):
Just interested in the avg age and when and what would be a good aircraft to replace it with.

I would be interested to know if their will be a replacement aircraft for them. I don't know if their will be an aircraft company will be willing to produce a 30 seat turboprop when the Brasilia needs to be replaced.



"Reading departure signs in some big airports reminds me of the places I've been"
User currently offlineJayDub From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3682 times:

There are 60 total Brasilias in the SkyWest fleet.
14 operate on the Delta Connection side, 46 on the United Express side of the house.
The average age of the Bro fleet is 10.4 years.

[Edited 2007-08-10 22:23:41]

User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3670 times:

Quote:
Looking at the California market where most of the 120s are used, why wouldn't the Q400 be a good choice? Take for example the SFO-SBA. Today their are 10 flights using the 120s. With 30 seats per 120 that is 300 seats total to SFO. If OO used a Q400 on this route today, why couldn't they run 4 flights which would equal 296 seats (74 X 4=296) to SFO. Using this plan of fewer flights, they would need fewer aircraft overall which could reduce maintenance and fuel costs.

Frequency, frequency, frequency. America wants frequency.

What would you be doing with the Q400 the rest of the day? An airplane not flying is one that is not making money.

Also, consider that fewer seats available means a higher cost and more profit. Check out any BFL-LAX or BFL-SFO cost. The cheapest I could find to LAX was over $500. The reason? UAx wants to keep these seats available for the business traveller. When he has multiple choices, he's more likely to want to save time and not have to drive over the Grapevine to LAX. However, if there's only one flight a day, and he can't take it, he will drive, and that seat will go empty.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6072 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3666 times:

Quoting Osprey88 (Reply 15):
But what is more beneficial to an airlines revenue? Having lots of aircraft and more frequency or having fewer aircraft and less frequency?

How about they buy a DC-10 and run it just 1 time a day?



Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlineDeltaAVL From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1893 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3663 times:

Quoting SNCntry32 (Reply 3):
I also heard the Saab is a butter airframe from some XJ pilots.

It's a butter airframe, eh? I'm not so sure I'd want to put my life into the hands of an airplane made of butter!  Wink



"We break, We bend, With hand in hand, When hope is gone, Just hang on." -Guster
User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5700 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3648 times:

Quoting Osprey88 (Reply 11):
What makes you say that?

Looking at the California market where most of the 120s are used, why wouldn't the Q400 be a good choice? Take for example the SFO-SBA. Today their are 10 flights using the 120s. With 30 seats per 120 that is 300 seats total to SFO. If OO used a Q400 on this route today, why couldn't they run 4 flights which would equal 296 seats (74 X 4=296) to SFO. Using this plan of fewer flights, they would need fewer aircraft overall which could reduce maintenance and fuel costs.

Or am I missing something?

I think for an aircraft to pass muster with OO's fleet department would be a) suitable for thehit n high condition at MANY of OO's stations in the Intermountain West area, as well as b) comparable CASM compared to the EMB120, not to mention somwhat easy to acquire, and acquisition costs somewhat on the lower end.



Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
User currently offlineBoston92 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3615 times:

Skywest got the E120's from Embraer, right?

Quoting JayDub (Reply 16):
There are 60 total Brasilias in the SkyWest fleet.

What happened to the other ten?



"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
User currently offlineJayDub From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3571 times:

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 22):
What happened to the other ten?

Two Brasilias have left the fleet this year...one in January, one in March. I know at least one and I believe both were flown FAT - FXE for delivery to a private buyer.

I assume the other 8 left the fleet over the previous couple of years.


User currently offlineOsprey88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 330 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3553 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 17):
Frequency, frequency, frequency. America wants frequency.

I think you are partially correct, but I think you can make even more money with smart frequency timing. Yes America wants frequency, you are correct, but you do not have to offer pax 10 flight times to choose from. 3, 4, or 5 well-placed flights should do the trick to most airports in the OO's California market. I go back to the SFO-SBA example. Today the flight times SBA-SFO were:

6:36
7:41
8:21
10:20
12:00
1:52
3:45
5:52
7:32
8:53

Now if I operated those flights with a Q400, here are my flight times:

6:45
10:45
3:30
8:00

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 17):
Also, consider that fewer seats available means a higher cost and more profit. Check out any BFL-LAX or BFL-SFO cost. The cheapest I could find to LAX was over $500. The reason? UAx wants to keep these seats available for the business traveler. When he has multiple choices, he's more likely to want to save time and not have to drive over the Grapevine to LAX. However, if there's only one flight a day, and he can't take it, he will drive, and that seat will go empty.

Applying this to my SBA scenario you could still keep the seat at ~$500, because you still have the frequency to give him choice. However, their is a flip side in which you are correct on. I could not run Q400s to BFL because, as you said, because unless you have a monopoly, you need frequency, and you could only justify running 1 Q400 BFL-SFO and 1 Q400 BFL-LAX.

Overall, I'd say their are some markets that could support Q400(s) I think, but their are others that would require a EMB120.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 18):
How about they buy a DC-10 and run it just 1 time a day?

If I had a monopoly I would, and maybe not a DC-10, but a 787-3....  biggrin 



"Reading departure signs in some big airports reminds me of the places I've been"
User currently offlineJustlump From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3553 times:

In reference to your question regarding the performance of the 120 vs the Saab 340 and the Dash 8, as previously mentioned, the Dash 8 is a superior hot/high performer. Luckily, I have had extensive hands-on experience with both the 120 and the Saab. The EMB 120 is faster, flies higher, and has an external APU. However, when it comes to performance issues, the Saab wins hands down. My base airport (SJT) sits at approximately 2000ft elevation, is 350mi from IAH, with an 8300ft main runway (18/36). When the temp reaches 36C in the summer, the Brasilia takes a major hit (weight restriction) when it comes to passengers carried. On an average day (35C) , OO 120's were restricted to 18 to 24 pax and 600lbs bags depending on the particular aircraft (fuel load 2400lbs). The Saab 340, does not take a serious hit until 40C. On an average 35C summer day, it can routinely carry 30-32pax and 900-1000lbs in bags (with a fuel load of 2600lbs). As you can see, as a Station Manager, I greatly prefer the Saab. It is uncomfortable and slow, but it gets the job done.
Aircraft performance issues were the main reason SkyWest lost the IAH Continental Connection contract to Colgan. OO is a great airline with fantastic people, but the EMB120 was seriously lacking in the trans-Texas market.


25 Goldenshield : Not true. The performance was great up to about 42C, when it really started to crap out. What hurt the Bro in the Houston market were the numerous st
26 AirlineBrat : To be honest, the EMB-120 is my least favorite aircraft. They are noisier than hell and if you sit anywhere between the wing and the front of the cabi
27 Skyrat : SKW management has expressed their love for the Q400. I have heard that they want a long term contract, which is why they haven't gone and bought any.
28 Aviationnut12 : I love the Brasilia, and also the ATR 72. Yeah they are noisy, but go fly on a Cessna 152 and you'll soon learn what noise is. I remember flying PHX-P
29 Hawaiian717 : Nope, they want frequency. A few years ago, United tried cutting LAX-SAN frequencies and adding Shuttle by United 737s to the route. Didn't really wo
30 Boston92 : Inside the Brasilia, the noise is really not that bad. Two days ago, I carried on a conversation with the guy behind me, across from me, and the fligh
31 Hiflyer : love the 120...especially when I score row 9 on the window....ahhhh legroom. FYI SKW had two different interior 120's in the past due to a pickup of s
32 Srbmod : I still think EV and OH made a mistake in retiring their fleets when they did. I know that part of EV's fleet was upgraded to the ER standard a few y
33 Goldenshield : They are all 120ER models. The last RT model was retired a few years ago (and now working cargo.)
34 Boston92 : Yeah it is. The Brasilia even for its small size is roomy inside. The seats do not recline making it good for tall people like me to fit fine.
35 F9Animal : I used to fly as a passenger on the EMB 120 at least 2 times a week. I really enjoyed flying on it, and had no issues. The flights from LAS to PSP wer
36 Boston92 : Exactly. A few weeks back when flying SBA-LAX, the only MX problem I ever encountered with the Brasilia made us re book and I had to go on a later CR
37 DLOnur : Load factors are always heavy on the ACV-SFO run....all of those 120's are full almost all of the time--this is the case now and was the case when I
38 IADCRJ : The APU in addition to the lavatory is probably the best feature in terms of Passenger comfort for this aircraft.
39 RayChuang : I wonder are there any plans to upgrade the EMB 120's in SkyWest service? They could be a great candidate for a newer engine turning six-bladed props
40 Boston92 : Are there upgrades like this available that would reduce already low fuel costs to even lower? How much fuel would you be saving?
41 AirlineBrat : I was fortunate to fly on the RJ between SFO and ACV a couple of times when OO flew them up here. At one point if my memory is correct, they flew thr
42 Post contains images DLOnur : Yeah, it was nice having the RJ service into ACV...a lot easier to non-rev on in and out as opposed to the very full 120's. Tell the AM shift that I
43 Caspian27 : ZV using a 1900 provides EAS service to VIS via LAS now.
44 Post contains links and images Flyboy97502 : A few I've seen made their way up north! View Large View MediumPhoto © Ben Wang I was surprised to see them up there![Edited 2007-08-13 12:04:56
45 WhatUsaid : Pre-911, UAX was running six RJ's a day between FAT and SFO. Of course, given that was the same aircraft shuttling back 'n forth, one ATC delay and th
46 Goldenshield : They become overbooked as people booked on later flights arrive into SFO and find that their flight is so massively delayed due to flow that they've
47 CWAFlyer : What hurt was Continental's insistance that 4 of the airplanes that were operated were the ones in COEX paint. All 4 were RT's and had been sitting i
48 IADCRJ : I believe that zv recently discontinued this route.
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