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Emirates To Order 747-8Is  
User currently offlineBells From Singapore, joined Nov 2001, 163 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 27580 times:

According to flightglobal.com Emirates is about to sign a major order for 747-8 Intercontinentals. Another major blow for the A380 programme?

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...boeing-747-8-intercontinental.html

240 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7078 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 27516 times:

Quoting Bells (Thread starter):
Another major blow for the A380 programme?

Why ? They did not cancel any of their existing A380s order, didn´t they ? They even ordered addittional aircraft in June and have more than 50 aircraft on order.
I think this just proves that LH´s strategy is right and that other airlines will follow their example of using both the A380 and 747-8. Hope others will follow (BA???).
I am just worried that EK is able to fill all those aircraft (A380s, 747-8Is, 77W and later 787-10 or A350-1000s) but if they do Dubai will be a great spotting experience since I don´t believe that looking at endless A380s and 747-8Is will ever be boring  Smile



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineDABZF From Germany, joined Mar 2004, 1201 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 27515 times:

And just why is it a blow to A380 programme? Has EK cancelled their A380 orders???


I like driving backwards in the fog cause it doesn't remind me of anything - Chris Cornell
User currently offlineAA7295 From Australia, joined Aug 2007, 622 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 27515 times:

Interesting. Will this be for routes such as DXB-LAX, DXB-SFO, DXB-MIA, DXB-SYD?

Regards,
AA7295


User currently offlineMoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 4032 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 27515 times:

Quoting Bells (Thread starter):
According to flightglobal.com Emirates is about to sign a major order for 747-8 Intercontinentals. Another major blow for the A380 programme?

So Emirates have placed two A380 followon orders this year (4 and 8) and have recently finished building the custom A380 engineering and maintenance facility at their base, and still the rumours persist that EK are going to cancel (how else would this be a blow)?

No, if this deal goes ahead, EK will slot the 747-8I in just below the A380 in terms of capacity in the same manner that Lufthansa has. Its often been said on this forum that the two aircraft are not direct competitors, and many airlines will find ways in which they are fantastically complementary to each other.


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7078 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 27468 times:

Interesting if they will order 787s or A350 in addition to that ? Dubai is going to be interesting.
Interesting is also that the article mentions Cathay (for both Cargo and Passenger ?) and China Airlines as well as BA.
Seems that the aircraft is making progress finally.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineFlyboysp From Australia, joined Apr 2007, 739 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 27375 times:

IF the deal does go through for the 747-8i, it will be a good boost for the 747-8i programme.

Quoting Bells (Thread starter):
Another major blow for the A380 programme

I would not consider it a blow for the A380, considering that EK have placed numerous add on orders for the A380.



#proudtobeabulldog
User currently offlineSKY1 From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 879 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 27360 times:

Nice news for all 747 fans, including me  Smile I hope this order be the second one with other more coming soon.

Quoting Moo (Reply 4):
No, if this deal goes ahead, EK will slot the 747-8I in just below the A380 in terms of capacity in the same manner that Lufthansa has

True.

In fact, I see very few airlines ordering a 747-8 instead of an A-380 (Maybe JL could be one of them)



Time flies! Enjoy life!
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 27267 times:

I'll believe it when I see it. No proof, no quotes, no nothing - Show me some proof that they are interested and we'll talk.


What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineLifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1923 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 27082 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 8):
I'll believe it when I see it. No proof, no quotes, no nothing - Show me some proof that they are interested and we'll talk.

Me too. I also like the following quote from Tim Clark in the article:

Quote:
"We continue to persevere with Boeing on the 747-8I, but it's not as we want it yet."

Once again a plane that, according to EK, is not up to where the airline wants it. Clark is talking and demanding a lot, but not buying any. Let us just wait and see.

Cheers!  wave 



Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7078 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 27066 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 8):
Show me some proof that they are interested and we'll talk.

I think it is safe to say that they at least were interested in 747-8I last year so I can imagine that they have not lost interest at all but are figuring out if they:
a) have a gap between the 77W and A380 (yes),

b) need something to fill that gap (remains to be seen),

c) see if the 747-8I in its current form is able to fill that gap if needed (also remains to be seen).



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineJoKeR From Serbia, joined Nov 2004, 2242 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 26681 times:

After this, no one can convince me that they will NOT be starting an in-house leasing company!

Mind you the numbers discussed, for 20 airframes, are minute in EK terms... I recall Tim Clark saying that the 747 program is obsolete and that EK is not interested in an "ancient airliner design"... change of heart Mr Clark....?

[Edited 2007-08-13 12:12:33]


Kafa, čaj, šraf?
User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 26667 times:

An order from EK would be a genuine shot in the arm for the 747-8I. The lack of info on this recently had contributed to a general consensus that the trail had gone cold on this order but it looks like its still up there. I also think an EK order would help the chance of an order at BA and demonstrates that some carriers do require a go-between to sit in the middle of the 777-300ER and the A380.

User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 26643 times:

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 11):
After this, no one can convince me that they will NOT be starting an in-house leasing company!

I know your joking, but the 747-8i is not an aircraft that will be much use to a leasing company. They would order A320's or 787's for that.


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7078 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 26563 times:

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 11):
I recall Tim Clark saying that the 747 program is obsolete and that EK is not interested in an "ancient airliner design"

Did not know about Tim Clark saying that but I remember the CEO of SQ saying something similar.
EK was always interested in 747-8 at least as in the smaller variant with more range. Besides he did order the freighter version so I doubt he was calling the 747 program obsolete.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10766 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 26450 times:

The article says basically nothing new. That Boeing is in talks with about 15 airlines and that Emirates, BA, CX and China Airlines are the most likely customers to order the 748I soon we know already for a year or so. Lets hope that Emirates and China Airlines order still this year as the article hints. Maybe Emirates switches some of there 773ER orders to 748Is?
Who could be the freighter customers where orders are imminent?


User currently offlineAutoThrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1596 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 26436 times:

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 11):
Mind you the numbers discussed, for 20 airframes, are minute in EK terms... I recall Tim Clark saying that the 747 program is obsolete and that EK is not interested in an "ancient airliner design"... change of heart Mr Clark..

I believe that's not correct. IIRC it was Chew Choon Seng from SA and not Tim Clark which said the 747 is a obsolete and he wasn't interested in a new design of a ancient airliner.
Tim Clark said he would order the 748 only if Airbus fails to deliver the A380.

However i really hope EK will order the 747, its such a great and beautiful plane.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 26359 times:

Quoting NA (Reply 15):
Who could be the freighter customers where orders are imminent?

Any 747 cargo operator is a candidate, but I would single out:


  • Atlas Air
  • Air Atlanta Icelandic
  • Kalitta Air
  • UPS
  • JAL cargo


User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 26335 times:

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 16):
Tim Clark said he would order the 748 only if Airbus fails to deliver the A380.

I believe it was SQ CEO, mr Choon, that said that.


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7078 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 26336 times:

Quoting NA (Reply 15):
Who could be the freighter customers where orders are imminent?

I am hoping LH Cargo but I doubt it



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineBoeing74741R From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2007, 1171 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 26269 times:

How does this rumour affect the A380 programme, considering that Emirates made a follow-on order earlier on this year and remain committed to their A380 order?

I predicted in another thread that EK would never order the 747-8i: Any Other 747-8i Customers In Sight? (by MD 11 Jul 31 2007 in Civil Aviation)

However I stand to be proven wrong.

Also please let's not forget people that EK have not yet placed an order for the 787 AND/OR A350XWB so if there was to be an EK order for new aircraft it would most probably be for one (or both) of these products. Or maybe another A380 follow-on order even?


User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 26269 times:

Quoting Columba (Reply 19):
Quoting NA (Reply 15):
Who could be the freighter customers where orders are imminent?


I am hoping LH Cargo but I doubt it

I dont see why they would if they are recieving new 747-8I's that will replace the existing 747-400's. They will probably just convert the passenger -400's into Freighters.

[Edited 2007-08-13 13:15:57]

User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7078 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 26116 times:

Quoting EI321 (Reply 21):
I sont see why they would if they are recieving new 747-8I's that will replace the existing 747-400's. They will probably just convert the passenger -400's into Freighters.

That is the plan but from what I have read people at LH Cargo miss the nose door capability of the 747-200s
I think the -400s that will be converted are the combis together with additional 747-8Fs they could have a nice all jumbo fleet in 5-10 years.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10766 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 25892 times:

Quoting EI321 (Reply 17):
Any 747 cargo operator is a candidate, but I would single out:

Atlas Air
Air Atlanta Icelandic
Kalitta Air
UPS
JAL cargo

I doubt Kalitta Air as their business model is based on operating very old 747 freighters so far. All their aircraft are over 20 years old and they never bought new ones.

What about NWA Cargo? They are retiring their oldest nose-door-fitted freighters from the mid-70s currently, they have plenty of cash, and I doubt they can´t afford converting some of their 744s right now as they haven´t replacements for them.

And what about Fedex?


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7078 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 25503 times:

Quoting NA (Reply 23):
What about NWA Cargo? They are retiring their oldest nose-door-fitted freighters from the mid-70s currently, they have plenty of cash, and I doubt they can´t afford converting some of their 744s right now as they haven´t replacements for them.

A joint 747-8I and -8F order for NW would be awesome  Wink

Quoting NA (Reply 23):
And what about Fedex?

They have just ordered plenty of 777Fs don´t know if they have a use for a 747-8F, UPS seems more likely.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
25 EI321 : I cant see many airlines that operate 747-400's already doing this. Most would just order the Intercontental and then convert their existing 747-400'
26 Post contains images Lumberton : I am on record (a few score times) as saying that Emirates will order the A350XWB, if for nothing else to bolster the investment they have already ma
27 TKV : As commented on another thread, the EK's existing orders of VLA are already perceived by some as potentially excessive. An B748i order will only add
28 Post contains links EI321 : Quoting Lumberton (Reply 26): I am on record (a few score times) as saying that Emirates will order the A350XWB, if for nothing else to bolster the in
29 DAYflyer : This is not a "major blow" to the A-380 program. It is however, potentially a very big boost to the 748 pax program. If Boeing lands the BA, CX and EK
30 Lumberton : I don't know, but I have a feeling we'll find out in November. BTW, with the exception of possibly the A350-800XWB, is not the A350 series is more of
31 Post contains images Philzh : As KLMA330 said in another thread: They were missing on the B747-8i, so maybe that is the rationale at work here TKV, you wouldn't happen to be of ger
32 Azhobo : I guess that would put the 747F in that category then?
33 Post contains images Columba : I could be considered a blow for Airbus if BA and CX will order the 747-8I without any A380s.
34 EI321 : Subjectively speaking, yes it would, even though they are both existing 747 operators. IMO it would be an even bigger blow to Boeing if BA were to go
35 Scouseflyer : It would be, however I bet that they're going to keep us all waiting a while yet though!
36 Post contains images Norcal773 : That was Jacobin777's boy Chew of SIA who said that, not Clark. Interesting this is he ordered the A330 right after that comment. Go figure.. This ar
37 Post contains images JoKeR : OK, sorry, correction, he DID actually say that, but for the 747-400's... when asked by a journalist (interview a few years back, I'll see if I can di
38 EI321 : Along with more A380. Likewise, Lufthansa's boss emphasised how the 747-8 is not just an update of the -400, albeit on the day that he announced LH w
39 NYC777 : I wonder if the pending 748I order by EK also bodes well a EK 787 order as well this November?
40 BillReid : If any airline buys the competitors model and you don't get the sale isn't that lost business. Assume that Emerates needs 100 aircraft and Boeing fil
41 Legoguy : Great new's if true. The 748-I needs more orders. Perhap's off topic, but could a used 748-I ever be converted into a freighter?
42 Columba : I recall a Boeing spokesman saying that the A380 and the 747-8I are not direct competitioners. He also said that the 747-8 is smaller than the A380 a
43 DeltaDC9 : What if EK simply does not take ALL the 380s? Maybe they are positioning nthemselves to have two options depending on market and economy conditions.
44 Norcal773 : My beef with the comment is claiming how the 748 is an ancient plane and then ordering the A330 right after. The A330 is not tomorrow's plane by any
45 Zvezda : All of these public statements, by Chew, Clark, and other airline CEOs are generally just a part of the negotiating process and a way to get free pub
46 EI321 : Yeah but they are only getting interim A330's on lease until their A350's arrive. SQ are not basing long term expansion around the A330, but they are
47 Post contains images Stitch : If it's a "blow" to anything, it would be to the A350-1000 flying in EK colors as the 747-8 would fly 200nm farther with 50+ more people (assuming EK
48 Zvezda : At the moment, SQ's future fleet looks like: 19 WhaleJets 19 777-300ERs 20 A350-900s 20 787-9s 19 A330-300s (short-term) Let's not exaggerate the bas
49 TISTPAA727 : People on this board should pay attention to punctuation. Everyone jumped on Bells in the beginning for asking if this would be a blow to the A 380 pr
50 EA772LR : This strategy may indeed work. And if Boeing were to get the range of the 748I up to 8300 nm, that would be a nice addition to that aircraft. If an a
51 TKV : The correct formulation IMO is "they compete, except on the high end sector of the A380 (A350) and low end sector of the B748i (B787)" The fact that
52 EI321 : How high are we talking? Because range is not the only thing that would go up! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
53 Zvezda : I think Boeing have already picked the low-hanging fruit and some mid-level fruit as well.
54 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ....IIRC, fellow A.netter Stitch has good information on this... .. .....whoaaa....you flame-fest starter.. ....who's boy is Chew..and when was the l
55 EBJ1248650 : There's no reason to believe the airline can't use both airplanes; A380 for very high density routes and 747 for routes with less density.
56 DeltaDC9 : You are taking that WAY out of context. Boeing said they would not compete with a clean sheet design because the market would not support two new pla
57 Ikramerica : The only blow to the A380, if this is true, is that EK is continuing to over buy planes to the point that a crash in their market looks more and more
58 KC135TopBoom : So who are the other 11 airlines? UA? NW? JL? NH? QF? South Africa? Any of the South American airlines? AF? Any other European airlines? AI? Iraqi Ai
59 TKV : 10-20% ?? Look at the figures in the US after 9/11 !! In the case of the A380. as commented in an article mentioned a few days ago on this Forum, the
60 Poitin : Please look hard for the source of the quote, as I don't believe he would say such a thing, but he well may have. In any case, stop to imagine what a
61 Ikramerica : Or region specific. With QR and EK and others "overbuilding" their market, it could happen fast. The real estate market in the USA is an interesting
62 Stitch : Wiki says 55 A388s, 23 77Ws, 10 77Ls, 10 748Fs and 8 777Fs. All but the 77Ws are still to be built, and I expect the 77W backlog is around 20, so tha
63 NA : EK has the largest widebody backlog of any airline by far, but I guess I´m right to assume that many of the 777s on order will replace early built 77
64 Zvezda : By far? SQ have 87 widebodies on order. EK have more, but I wouldn't say far more.
65 JRDC930 : I dont usually say this, but when it concerns EK... I'll Believe it when i see the plane flying in their colors. As for the rest of the airlines, same
66 EA772LR : How many does QR have on order now???
67 NA : The 748I is a vastly modernized version of an old plane, with the newest engine technology. In this respect (and that is the most important aspect wh
68 ERAUgrad02 : They must have gotten the added range emirates wanted. hmmmm... I wonder. I'm excited for the 747-8i program.
69 Post contains images Ikramerica : I think everyone hears EK talk about the "100 787s or A350s" they have planned to order for 3 years now, and just adds them in. Which means that EK h
70 EI321 : I think obsolete is a strong word. But I agree with you regarding statements from airlines. I would love to say that I have heard consensually positi
71 EI321 : Because its been continually held up. Its important to remember that if the order 100 A350XWB for instance, they will potentially replace their entir
72 Kaitak : Two questions I have: 1) What does this mean for the 787-10; presumably Boeing will give very attractive financial incentives to EK for buying both? (
73 DL767captain : Ok that just doesn't make sense, i wish it was because i would do anything to keep the 747 above the A380 but we have to accept the fact that the A38
74 LTBEWR : Maybe it is a play to get a better deal from both Boeing on it or other a/c they have on order as well as playing Airbus to prod them into better deal
75 Post contains images Astuteman : "We continue to persevere with Boeing on the 747-8I, but it's not as we want it yet." According to flightglobal.com, the 748i is "still in the runnin
76 Post contains images Ikramerica : For EK, who has not issues with offering 17" Y seats, the 748i can offer their standard of service and hold a lot of pax with 10Y seating, room for F
77 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...what's interesting is according to the quote, Leahy actually expounded a little bit on your comments...so I think there is some credibility. He di
78 AirFrnt : Yes, it's a blow to the 380 program because otherwise, these would have been 380 orders. No it's not a big deal, because EK has a absolutely insane bu
79 Post contains images EI321 : Thats part of the problem. The CASM difference between the 747-8i and the A350-1000 will be like the difference between the 777-300ER and the A340-60
80 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ....I can't recall that being said...
81 Ikramerica : well, this year isn't over, and there are announcements to come this fall, so why write off the program before we actually give it a chance to "see w
82 LHRBlueSKies : Read the article properly. It says EK are in discussions, and Clarke is not yet happy with the 748.....of course he will order it, but when he is sat
83 TKV : If the A350-1000 existed other than incomplete on paper and could be delivered about 2011 I would fully agree As it is, Tim Clark has his doubts so h
84 Post contains images PlaneHunter : There's a significant size difference between the B748 and the A380 - EK wouldn't be the first carrier to address and react to that fact. But wait -
85 Moo : What precisely is the 747-8I other than 'incomplete on paper'? People need to stop using that as a negative.
86 Post contains images Scouseflyer : and they've both got the same number of firm orders (20)
87 AirFrnt : True. But if the plane didn't exist, given EK's tendency to order large, these would have been 380 orderrs. Classic appeal to authority debate tactic
88 TKV : Right partially: But the basic model B748 in his freight model is already far advanced, only 2 years and some from delivery, if I remember well, whic
89 Moo : That doesn't matter as we aren't talking about the freight version - the -8I does not have a firm design, is not scheduled for EIS until 2010 and has
90 TKV : I could agree it is also a paper aircraft. But much more concrete as the A3510 (and much easier to implemet, as it is not a totally new concept, but
91 Moo : While it may be easier to implement as a derivative (although I'm not convinced that its much more easier, it has a new wing, new engine, new avionic
92 Gbfra : The A380 is in manufacturing process. Including the wiring.
93 AirFrnt : How about filling your fleet with smaller, ultra efficient aircraft that have tens of empty seats during recessions, not hundreds.
94 DL767captain : it depends on if he could get it soon. With the 787 sold out for a while i'm sure he would go for it, the problem is getting boeing to develop the pl
95 PlaneHunter : That's the classic comparison. But there is a number of reasons for the demise of PA, e.g. increasing debts after absorbing National (resulting in di
96 TKV : I do not agree, but we need not to discuss it. As I said, I do not think any firm order will be issued before the correspondent design is affirmed. I
97 PlaneHunter : ...which may force the airline to leave behind masses of passengers who switch to the competition as long as there's no recession. PH
98 Post contains images Flysherwood : Very true. If they can really pull it off, Dubai will be one hell of an airport to watch an incredible fleet!
99 Post contains images Stitch : And yet how many A388F sales Airbus was planning to make to heavy cargo carriers have since gone to the 747F family? Since program launch in December
100 ER757 : It's premature to think this order is a done deal (as others have pointed out). From my (admittedly unprofessional) perspective, the 748i doesn't make
101 Stitch : Because EK has a mission neither plane can meet (nor could the A350-1000) without leaving behind passengers and revenue cargo to both allow the tanks
102 Post contains images Glideslope : Not as of today.
103 Post contains images Glideslope : Each frame is being individually certified. There is no Production Cert yet.
104 Iwok : I think EK did cancell 10 380F versions a while back. That being said, its not necessarily a blow to the 380pax, because the 748i will be used along
105 Moo : We don't know whats happening yet, its only the prevailing opinion that the first few frames will be individually certified - for all we know Airbus
106 Post contains images ER757 : True - but there will always be a mission that anyone's existing fleet can't exactly meet. My point was that there are aircraft that either exceed th
107 Post contains images TKV : Some orders where changed to the pax version, the Fedex order for 10 was cancelled, the UPS order for 10 (?) was terminated by Airbus. This in a cert
108 Scouseflyer : A TKV says EK did decide not to take the A380F but their order was only for 2 frames which they swapped for the pax version, ILFC did the same for it
109 Post contains images Moo : I aim to please At this stage, absolutely nothing at all. Nada. Bumkiss. Zilch.
110 Philzh : You mean "german" and "Papier ist geduldig", don't you, Am...TKV?
111 Post contains images Poitin : Thank you, I should have asked you directly, as you seem to have everything on that spread sheet. Well, would you really, really mind finding the ref
112 Post contains links Buckeye : Could it be that Boeing met its objective of reducing the weight of nonstructural elements as stated in the following article? http://www.atwonline.co
113 Kaitak744 : What is the total number of 777-300ERs EK will ultimately own, and what is the total number of 777-300ERs that will be leased? (too bad ILFC and GECAS
114 TKV : You will not believe it, but in Spanish it also exists !! TKV
115 Post contains images Jacobin777 : LoL..I'll try my best but no guarantees....
116 Baron95 : I never understood the problem that EK has with the revised 748I configuration. As I understand it, after wind tunnel tests, Boeing concluded that wi
117 AviNutSo : I guess it depends on how you look at it. If Airbus thought that the slots the 748's are taking were a shoo in for the A380, then it is a blow to Airb
118 Post contains images JRDC930 : Just to clarify, I'm not saying I think the 748I is obsolete, i mearly think that it has the sigma of being stereotyped as such by certain south east
119 AirFrnt : PA had not made a profit in more then 2 of the last 11 years when that offer was made. PA had not made a profit in more then 3 of the previous 20 yea
120 Azhobo : If the 748i is a paper airplane than they have not cut down the tree or mined the lead ore to which the a3510 will be first defined by.
121 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..no offense mate, but I'll believe the CEO of LH before anyone else on A.net... "The airline industry is taking more time before ordering the bigges
122 Ken777 : I wonder if EK is now looking at the other side of the coin - how they configure the plane. If they load the "longer" 748i with the number of seats p
123 PlaneHunter : Interesting to see how you focus on the B747 while ignoring all the other aspects, e.g ongoing mismanagement (indepependant from fleet planning), unl
124 Smadnaniqbal : I think EK till now is committed to A-380 even with problems in the delivery of the aircrafts. There is no such thing as blow to the A-380 programe.
125 Post contains images Columba : Indeed this will be interesting. Boeing could offer them a good deal for both the 747-8 and 787 or they could order the 747-8 and the A350 to share b
126 LTU932 : Why do many people still think that the 747-8I is a direct competitor of the A380? The 747-8I is built for a different niche. LH's launch order shows
127 Tdscanuck : As of today, 48 total. They will own 12, the rest are leased from ILF, GECAS, and Singapore. Of those 48, 40 have already been delivered. Becausernth
128 NA : Whatever the press says, the 747-8I aims right at the middle between 773ER and A380, so, will take away orders from both.
129 Revelation : Not in my opinion. For the A3510 and for the entire A350 family we have little idea as to who is going to build the parts, how they are going to be i
130 Moo : Yup, they are just going to take a 747-400, cut and shut it for the extra fuselage length, slap some composites in there somewhere, throw on a new wi
131 Revelation : As opposed to figuring out how to make composite shells, how to bond them to the frame, how to downsize the A380 avionics suite, how to build an all-
132 Zvezda : What does "direct" mean in this context? Do airlines consider buying one or the other? Absolutely. They are competitors. Can airlines freely intercha
133 EI321 : Thats the issue, IMO. Airlines are comparing the two aircraft directly against each other in their RFP's, so they ARE direct competitors IMO. Same go
134 Tdscanuck : I interpret "direct" in this context to mean "can be rationally used for the same mission." Tom.
135 Post contains links Helvknight : This thread shows that the A380 convoys have restarted. 380 Wing Seized By Plane Stupid (by Pmg1704 Aug 13 2007 in Civil Aviation) Could it be that t
136 Post contains links Lumberton : IIRC, Leahy made the remarks in an interview with James Wallace at the Paris Air Show. As I recall, he put the figure at up to 30% of the outstanding
137 Moo : And your statement to the opposite holds even less water - the only things preexisting for the -8I are the engines and the basic airframe shell, whic
138 Revelation : And yet none of these preexist for the A350, thus the A350 is more of a paper airplane.
139 EI321 : Im boggled. What do you expect? The A350-1000 does not enter service until 2015. The 747-8 in 2009. Six years earlier. So of course we know more abou
140 Post contains images DAYflyer : Yeah, just little things like new engines, a new wing, substantially higher use of composites throughout the airplane, new avionics......nothing much
141 Tdscanuck : Given that the engines and basic airframe are the two hardest parts of the whole airplane to design, I'm not sure "only" is the right word to be usin
142 Stitch : Because they are. Certainly not all the time, but certainly also not none of the time. Then why did SQ, VS, TG and AF not take it? I can't believe th
143 TKV : As mentioned in other posts, it seems probable that the MSN 03 would be certified with an Individual Certificate, in substitution of a not available
144 Moo : Oh look, I have two things that dont exist - *but* one doesnt exist LESS than the other!!! See how stupid that sounds? Im missing your point in copyi
145 Post contains images EI321 :    How do you define 'substantal', 1%? 10%? Have you seen a photo of the proposed 747-8 cockpit? I have. I noticed two mechanical dials that differ
146 TKV : The critics of the B748i by the what can be called "non-8i enthusiasts", including some very vocal airline managers, say that it is a "yesterday tech
147 DeltaDC9 : The airframe is not significantly amended. They have plugged an airframe before, and for Boeing and Airbus, it is known territory. The wing modificat
148 Post contains links and images Helvknight : They stopped th convoys for a while during the hiatus, it looks like they've restarted, According to this convoy tracking site it isn't just wings, i
149 Revelation : You have one thing that 100% of does not exist, and another that 10% of does not exist. See how stupid you sound in saying they are the same?
150 Moo : But neither of these aircraft exist. Or can you show me a 90% completed 747-8I? No? Funny that, eh?
151 Tdscanuck : If you go by that logic, the 787 doesn't exist because we don't have any aircraft with all the parts together yet. There are loads of parts and desig
152 Moo : Actually no, because you can show a 787 that exists as something other than a design - its not complete, buts a damn sight more than paper. You cant
153 EI321 : Oh guys come on! Both the 747-8 or the A350-1000 just exist in model form. Of course the 747-8 is 90%+ of a 747-400, but that merely indicates to us w
154 Zvezda : That's more or less fair, except for the OEW per seat. That is very speculative.
155 TKV : Thanks for the Info. Yes, it seem the complete fuselage + wings Out of curiosity: the schedule indicates the itinerary in France, beginning in 2 week
156 EI321 : On the A350-800 yes, not nessessarily the others though. Its mainly due to the proportionally larger wings. But as has been demonstrated in threads r
157 Ikramerica : Considering, IIRC, that the majority of airbus products have a higher OEW per seat than their B counterparts...
158 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...it was the May 15, 2007 article, however I sent you a link.. ....I'm glad someone else remembered this also...yet I still can't find the bloody ar
159 DeltaDC9 : The most important things exist, the tooling and the line.
160 Post contains links Justloveplanes : Reuters is now quoting Flight INTERNATIONAL with the same take: http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/070814/boeing_aircraft_order.html?.v=1
161 UAL747-600 : The GE family of engines that will be used on it are currently getting certified. UAL747-600
162 Post contains images Astuteman : Gotta say I'm with DAYflyer on this one. Boeing say the 748i's wing is "Essentially New". Although sharing the same planform (but with wingtip extens
163 Philzh : Did you ever get an official response from Airbus to your enquiry about (individual or not) certification for MSN 03 and the first few A380s generall
164 TKV : I did not make such enquiry and as my reply 143 implies, I am not aware of any statement by Airbus TKV
165 Zvezda : My understanding is that the spars are retained. My understanding is that Boeing will not be using Al/Li but rather a lot of newer aluminium alloys.
166 Post contains images Astuteman : I interpret your detailed corrections to indicate a broad agreement with the point I was trying to make. ? Regards
167 Post contains images Zvezda : Affirmed. I apologize for the earlier lack of clarity on my part.
168 Post contains links Emirates773ER : looks like EK is ordering 8 748I's. DUBAI (Reuters) - Boeing Co. (BA.N: Quote, Profile , Research) is close to winning an order from Dubai-based Emira
169 Zvezda : That's just a report of a report. We already had the FI report.
170 Post contains images Astuteman : No probs. Many thanks. Regards
171 Post contains links LTU932 : If you have a look at the Orders and Deliveries page, you'll notice that there are currently 8 UFO 747-8s booked. Could those be eventually the 747-8I
172 Zvezda : If they are, then EK have already ordered them, unless EK will be leasing them and the leasing company have already signed their deal with Boeing. Th
173 CHRISBA777ER : The report says eight airframes. Suspending disbelief for a moment.... They would likely need three airframes to do LAX daily, (although I still dont
174 LTU932 : Didn't they buy AND lease 77Ws? Because some of them are -31HERs (1H being EK's customer code) and others are -36NER (6N being GECAS's customer code)
175 Dank : " target=_blank>http://active.boeing.com/commercial/...x.cfm There were two separate ufos for 747-8Fs. 6 frames on 9 March and 2 frames on 27 July 200
176 Emirates773ER : They could be used for KHI, ISB, bombay, delhi etc which deal with seasonal high traffic every year during Eid, Hajj, Diwali etc. These airports cann
177 Post contains images DeltaDC9 : I hear ya, and note that you omitted the "from their point of view". My point is that the 748 program is maybe one quarter the size of the 787 progra
178 Azhobo : And the funding.
179 TKV : The report refers to "Flight", which mentioned 20, not 8 frames as written in the first paragraph. In the 2nd paragraph they got it right, as 20 !! R
180 Azhobo : So essentially a brand new VL aircraft at 1/4th the price tag it cost airbus to develop their brand old VL aircraft. HOBO
181 TKV : The B748i is strictly not a brand new VLA. but certainly a very competitive one TKV
182 Post contains images Astuteman : True indeed But calling it "a tweak", or "minor modifications to a 744" significantly sells short the scope of the 748 programme (IMO).... Funny. Or
183 XT6Wagon : I think the parts difference on a 748 Vs 744 is going to climb to 50% or more. Now alot of it is going to be things like displays, knobs, etc that ar
184 Justloveplanes : I think of the 747 as the Porsche 911 of airliners. It is a unique design with a unique blend of capabilities that can't be duplicated unless you out
185 Post contains links Emirates773ER : Some more fresh news on the subject. Dubai: Emirates airline is negotiating for up to 20 Boeing 747-8 Intercontinental aircraft, according to Flight I
186 Ikramerica : It's not lower density, mr. reporter man. It's just smaller. The A380 is likely lower density, due to it's efficiency and ample floor space that can'
187 Tdscanuck : Last I heard, Boeing hadn't completely dealt with the corrosion issues of AlLi. They can be dealt with (obviously, Airbus did) but they seem to have
188 EI321 : Dont just take that at face value. The A380 has a higher OEW because it is essentially under optomised towards the -900, wheras the 747-8 is reaching
189 Post contains images WILCO737 : Will EK finally admit that Boeing is just better than Airbus I think its a great decision, 748 is a lot better than the A380, the A380 is just huge, b
190 Zvezda : Will you admit the A330 is better than the 767 or that the A320 is better than the 737? The latter is certainly true from a passenger perspective, th
191 Post contains images WILCO737 : How can a A320 be better than a B737?! You will never ever hear from me that any Airbus is better than a Boeing! I am just fooling around dude... Sur
192 Tdscanuck : They already committed to new windows on the 747-8i...it was part of the original marketing campaign for improved passenger experience. It would be a
193 Helvknight : Hate to tell you this, dude but an MD-11 AIN'T a Boeing, it's a McDonnell Douglas. Yep, but the Bus is helping you, in any case if you're fond of a t
194 Post contains images WILCO737 : Well, its called Boeing MD11 nowadays, so I am fine And all my manuals say BOEING on it too hehe Helping me? yeah, like in WAW of LH, and Strassbourg
195 TKV : But is this not precisely one of the main drawbacks of the A350 and advantages of the B748i ?? Many are arguing that the capacity of the A388 in the
196 Zvezda : I'm very sympathetic to your view. Either the human should be flying the aircraft or the machine should be flying the aircraft. The Airbus way is a l
197 EI321 : Boeing also marketed larger windows on the 787, citing the passenger experience, until the prototype rolled out with smaller ones! The fact is that t
198 XT6Wagon : Uh, The 787 windows were smaller, but only by a SMALL %. I'm not sure what exactly they changed since before the change the info wasn't exactly out t
199 Zvezda : Smaller than what? I'll grant that the passenger windows on the 787 are smaller than Airbus cockpit windows. I have asked. The answers I've received
200 TKV : I am sorry: A350 is an obvious typo, it should say A388 (as it is stated in the subsequent phrase of my reply and all the following argument !!) TKV[
201 JTR : Priceless!
202 Tdscanuck : What do you mean? Line number 1 has huge windows (it's not really a prototype, it will eventually be delivered). Tom.
203 Post contains links Stitch : They're still pretty big... Real Close-up 787 PAX Window Pics (by NYC777 Aug 15 2007 in Civil Aviation) One wouldn't want to spill one's hot coffee i
204 Post contains images WILCO737 : What was this thread originally about OH, I remember, about EK ordering 747-8is WILCO737 (MD11F)
205 SSTsomeday : With 47 380s ordered, I think EK is actually the best customer Airbus ever had. But the potential for an EK operation with 380s AND 747s working side
206 TKV : I think that your post is very accurate, if you apply it to cases where the requirements of the airlines are of the same order of magnitude for both
207 DeltaDC9 : A single bypass is a tweak to an experienced heart surgeon, but a major operation to anyone else. That was all i was saying there. I would never mini
208 BoomBoom : How much smaller are they?
209 Gbfra : Ah, you have already seen the B748? Great, would you please share some of your impressions with us? Thanks in advance.
210 TKV : If we follow this line of reasoning you seem to are implying here, the case A350 versus B787 would be seriously in trouble. It is more or less equiva
211 Gbfra : I agree. Which airline has stated that the B748 is better than the A380?
212 TKV : I do not think that any would be candid enough to do so. But the CEO's of SIA and QF did the reverse, in a not very polite form, but then, they have
213 Gbfra : Why not?
214 Philzh : Wondering the same thing here: why not?
215 MCIGuy : Because it's not wise to annoy either manufacturer when you plan on dealing with them in the future.
216 TKV : It seems that you misunderstood that my remark referred to the purchase of A380, but the issue discussed was only their public comments. Such comment
217 Gbfra : No, not all all. What's this "pain in the neck"? The airlines are in a strong position because they are buyers, they are placing orders worth billion
218 Philzh : Quite true. But then I would imagine that Boeing is interested enough in Mr Clarks potential future orders (those famous 100 A350s and/or B787 come t
219 Gbfra : This is so, indeed.
220 Post contains images MCIGuy : True, money can buy endless forgetting.
221 SSTsomeday : Plus, you may end up eating crow when you find you have to adjust your business plan in the very direction that you have been previously criticising.
222 TKV : Of course, as GBFRA says, pride unless extreme cases does not enter in play But any experienced purchaser will confirm that even if at the moment in
223 Wsp : Replace X with AA. Replace Y with JM. And now give me your answer.
224 TKV : As we were speaking of SQ, QF and EK, it should be understood that X and Y should be "major airlines of the same cathegory". Then my example stands !
225 Post contains images Ikramerica : A good example of this is QF. While not specifically badmouthing the 777, they did reject it loudly repeatedly, and now you have the CEO Dixon runnin
226 Wsp : So what you are essentially saying is that for your example to work, from the Boeing's perspective, the business case for dealing with X must be iden
227 Zvezda : SQ had 42 747-400s. 19 of those will be replaced by WhaleJets. 23 of SQ's Jumbos have already been replaced by 777s.
228 Ikramerica : Sorry, all remaining. Chew made this comment around the time he ordered additional A380s, making it 19+5. He was in CYA mode, making sure to disparag
229 Philzh : If you're an airline exec and trying to make your airline look as good/modern/forward-thinking as possible, you keep repeating just how very clever y
230 AvObserver : I'm way too late to the party with this (blame my new bad work hours) but I think it would indeed be a serious, if not crippling blow to the A380 bec
231 Stitch : Even if they did, until such time as the 747-8I outsells the A380-800, I don't see any 747-8I sale as a "crippling blow" to the program. If BA and CX
232 Zvezda : When comparing programs, one needs to count the freighters. They affect RoI just like the passenger planes do. Trying to segment the development cost
233 Post contains images Stitch : Yes they do, but folks here are talking about EK ordering the 747-8I as being a crippling blow to the A380-800 (passenger). Overall, I agree the numb
234 Wsp : So you are saying Airbus should resume the A380F programme ASAP for the sake of RoI?
235 Stitch : Well every one they sell helps, but the trick is selling one against the 747-8F, especially if you ship something other then low-density, high-volume
236 Wsp : Hmm, against the 747-8F? Maybe they should hold off until 2015 when they have TrentXWBs available...
237 Zvezda : No, I didn't write that.
238 Stitch : Not sure that's going to make a difference. The 747-8F is just a better heavy cargo carrier, even if she's not as efficient.
239 ER757 : First off - sorry to hear you have lousy work hours. Been there, done that so I can sympathize. I do have to disagree with your assertion that an EK
240 WingedMigrator : So does comparing a freighter program to a passenger program. Depending on the outcome of the BA and EK deliberations, LH could very easily convert t
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