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More 787 Rumors: AA And ILFC.  
User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7305 posts, RR: 85
Posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 13827 times:
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AA wants the 787. ILFC and Udvar-Hazy will give it to them.

Looking to lease around 25 frames as soon as ILFC takes delivery.

Service to Hawaii, Europe, and Asia would be priority for AA.

Mentioned specifically as destinations were a second city in Germany and Spain.

Does a JFK-HNL n/s route make sense?

I ate dinner with my uncle tonight and he was chatting with a flight standards guy and a fleet manager.

This is purely speculative until we see 787 in AA livery.

 twocents 

70 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSSTsomeday From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 1276 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 13720 times:

While speculative, this scenario makes a lot of sense to me. In the past few years, most American airlines have not had the financial health to place big A/C orders. I would guess that ILFC placed it's large order of 787s with this in mind. I would suspect a number of U.S. majors to probably go this route as a stop-gap measure until they become more financially sound and production slots become available. Even if Boeing has saved some production space for some of their most loyal American customers, I doubt (purely speculative) that there would be the capacity to satisfy all the American airlines that are now far behind in this latest orders spike, once they finally start to order in large numbers.

It is not going to bode well in ten years when American airlines are still flying older-generation, fuel inefficient A/C while they are trying to compete globally with foreign fleets of efficient and more comfortable (internal environment) 787s (and 350s). It seems to me they are already behind in terms of in-flight comfort and amenities, as compared to foreign, global leaders.



I come in peace
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6557 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 13674 times:

Not to mention, most of ILFC's 787s will be RR-powered, and RR has been AA's preferred engine supplier since the 757.


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 13526 times:

is this speculation or is there some truth behind it, (it definately makes sense, UA AA and DL will have to go to leasing companies for their first rounds of 787's)

User currently offlineQQflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2283 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 13367 times:

I thought, and posted at the time, when ILFC announced their 787s would be equipped with RR engines that AA was likely one motive behind that decision. AA also continues to tell employees it retains certain production rights that allow it to get new a/c, including the 787, with relatively short notice. This was mentioned again in the past two weeks by offical company/employee communique.

We all know it's a matter of when, not if, AA will order the 787. It would not surprise me to see at least one in the fleet by the end of 2009.



The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7305 posts, RR: 85
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 13328 times:
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Quoting QQflyboy (Reply 5):
AA also continues to tell employees it retains certain production rights that allow it to get new a/c, including the 787, with relatively short notice

This statement is accurate.  yes 


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32877 posts, RR: 71
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 13293 times:

Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):

Mentioned specifically as destinations were a second city in Germany and Spain.

With the new anti-trust partnership with Iberia, Miami-Barcelona rumours have geared up lately. It would operate at least 5x weekly, year-round. AA/IB are seeing the success that long-haul airlines have seen in the market - Aerolineas Argentinas, Avianca, Continental, and US Airways have started service in the past 18 months and AeroMexico joins them this winter - and they want part of it.

[Edited 2007-08-15 04:26:48]


a.
User currently offlineCkfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5250 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13263 times:

I think when AA management feels that there is real progress on the pilots' contract, that is when there will be an announcement, either of an order with Boeing, an announcement of leases with ILFC, or both.

User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6926 posts, RR: 63
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13161 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 2):
Not to mention, most of ILFC's 787s will be RR-powered, and RR has been AA's preferred engine supplier since the 757.

That was my first thought when I saw this thread too. ILFC didn't throw RR the greater part of their 787 business (so far) without having a pretty fair idea of where those planes would be going. AA would make perfect sense. As for "preferred engine supplier", I'd surely like to think so (!) but I take nothing for granted. AA have/had a lot of GE DC-10s, MD-11s, A300s and 767s... the GEnx would hardly be an eccentric choice for them (Just the wrong one.  duck  )

Quoting QQflyboy (Reply 5):
I thought, and posted at the time, when ILFC announced their 787s would be equipped with RR engines that AA was likely one motive behind that decision.

So we move a step closer to an eventual AA 787 fleet of, what, 100-200?


User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7305 posts, RR: 85
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13094 times:
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Quoting Ckfred (Reply 8):
pilots' contract,

Discussed this tonight as well. It's not amendable until 2008. They asked for 31.5%? They are hoping to get back what they lost in 2003 which was 23%.


User currently offlineZuluLima From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 323 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13026 times:

Well then, what are the Vegas odd of my seeing AA 787s at DFW by the end of '09? Consensus seems to be that AA will definitely buy/lease...I don't see how they couldn't. Harder to pin down EIS for American. Equipping 763ERs with winglets starting next year has me confused. Will they be in service long enough to recoup installation costs with fuel savings before 787s send them packing? Or is it a solid investment either way with resale value?


I didn't get a 'Harumph' outta that guy!
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32877 posts, RR: 71
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13013 times:

Quoting ZuluLima (Reply 11):
. Equipping 763ERs with winglets starting next year has me confused. Will they be in service long enough to recoup installation costs with fuel savings before 787s send them packing?

The 763s aren't going anywhere anytime soon. 787s would join them, not replace them.



a.
User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3656 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 12966 times:

Everything seems plausible here but I'll believe it when it actually happens. How many times have we had someone come on here claiming they have inside info because someone's cousin's brother's uncle's mom talked to someone who mops the floors at AA corporate headquarters who told them fourth-hand that a 787 order is imminent?

It's definitely a matter of when not if, but I would think AA would be focus fleet planning on the MD80 replacement. That would seem to be the priority to me. Not to say they couldn't be doing both concurrently but....



PHX based
User currently offlineFlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 12957 times:

Adding my 2 cents worth here...AA has a few options concerning the 787. One, they can lease the 787 from ILFC...two, buy their delivery slots if AA needs the 787 much sooner than later...and three, have Boeing honor the "handshake" agreement & order their own 787s & get a cut in the delivery line before most of the other 787 customers. If AA orders the 787 soon using any one of the above scenarios, they'll need at least 24 airframes firm, and maybe another dozen more.
I can't picture American having 100 787s at the most tho. Also, I really believe AA's 787s will be equipped with RR engines, as their 777s are. The 783 is ideal for the Caribbean?latin American routes, while the 788 is good for Trans Atlantic & Europe and possibly future Pacific & Asia route.
Again, all theories on my part here. We'll know in the near future, perhaps before year's end what American has planned.
Regards.



"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32877 posts, RR: 71
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 12947 times:

Quoting 777STL (Reply 13):
It's definitely a matter of when not if, but I would think AA would be focus fleet planning on the MD80 replacement. That would seem to be the priority to me. Not to say they couldn't be doing both concurrently but...

What do you think the recent 738 order was for? The next priority for AA's fleet will be A300 replacement and long-haul expansion, which will probably come in the form of 787-3s and 787-9s, respectively.



a.
User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3656 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 12879 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15):
What do you think the recent 738 order was for? The next priority for AA's fleet will be A300 replacement and long-haul expansion, which will probably come in the form of 787-3s and 787-9s, respectively.

That wasn't an order, that was an acceleration of a previous order. And no, I don't think 47 additional 738s are a replacement for the 300 sum odd aircraft in the MD80 fleet.



PHX based
User currently onlineAA767400 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 2369 posts, RR: 26
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 12789 times:

Quoting 777STL (Reply 16):
That wasn't an order, that was an acceleration of a previous order. And no, I don't think 47 additional 738s are a replacement for the 300 sum odd aircraft in the MD80 fleet.

It still helps to accelerate their replacement. Rome was not built in one day, and 300 M80s will not be that easy to replace.



"The low fares airline."
User currently offlineSirOmega From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 735 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 12760 times:

What if AA both buys some 787s and leases more from ILFC? Say, 25 each to start with? With more options and purchase rights.

The main thing I see is if the economy bails or oil goes up (or both) and air travel slumps, AA isnt left with 50 787s to fill. They can return 25 (and ILFC can place them with someone becuase of such high demand for the 787) and then they can use the 25 they own to replace 767s.


User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7305 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 12750 times:
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Quoting SirOmega (Reply 18):
What if AA both buys some 787s and leases more from ILFC?

A definite plausible scenario.

 twocents 


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32877 posts, RR: 71
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 12653 times:

Quoting 777STL (Reply 16):

That wasn't an order, that was an acceleration of a previous order. And no, I don't think 47 additional 738s are a replacement for the 300 sum odd aircraft in the MD80 fleet.

It doesn't matter that it was an acceleration of a previous order. It is to replace the oldest S80s in AA's fleet. Now the priority is going to shift to other things. AA has MD80s that were built in 1999! They are in no rush to replace all 300.



a.
User currently offlineSSTsomeday From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 1276 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 12538 times:

Quoting QQflyboy (Reply 5):
AA also continues to tell employees it retains certain production rights that allow it to get new a/c, including the 787, with relatively short notice.



Quoting FXramper (Reply 6):
This statement is accurate.

Are these production rights otherwise known as "options," which cost money? And if so, why don't we know about them?

Or, does AA and possibly other airlines, supposedly big, loyal Boeing customers, have private agreements to get in on production slots on short notice that are not publicly advertised? (Was that referred to in this thread as a "hand shake agreement")

I've heard that it would be easier to ramp up production of the 787 (as opposed to other current widebodies) at some point, even without another production line, since the A/C is unprecedentedly out-sourced. Is that where perhaps Boeing will come up with some surprise slots, perhaps?

It will be interesting to watch where the big U.S. airlines will get all their next generation lift once they start to order. ILFC wouldn't have enough A/C to satisfy the all the demand, would they?

For these reasons I think we will see 767s, 757s, 330s flying passenger service well into the future. Look at the resurgence of the 330 due largely to the 350 (and 380) delays.

There has been a trend recently to retire some A/C earlier than what would typically be expected (some 320s, for example), but I have a feeling that that trend will reverse in the foreseeable future because American airlines have delayed getting in on this order cycle. I wonder if we will see some stored A/C coming out of the desert, for conversion to freighters, because the current generation wide-body twins are being kept in passenger service?

I realize that there seems to have been a surge in new-build freighters, rather than conversions, but since there is going to be a squeeze on the supply once American airlines start ordering, perhaps new-build freighters are going to become too pricey?

(Please - forgive this "stream of consciousness" post...  blush  )



I come in peace
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 11971 times:

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 20):
Are these production rights otherwise known as "options," which cost money? And if so, why don't we know about them?

They're not options. I think the poster was talking about the infamous "handshake agreement" between Boeing and some of the US legacy carriers.

It's important to realize that when Boeing says "the line is sold out" they mean, "If you want to start a new deal with us now, don't expect an airplane before 2014 (or whatever the number currently is)". That's not the same thing as "we have an identified customer for every line position between now and 2014."

It's almost inevitable that at least one of the US legacy carriers will order some 787's in the next year or two. I strongly suspect that Boeing has blocked off spots in the production line for that, even though they don't have the order yet. So the may really be sold out (no more capacity that Boeing is willing to sell) but slots may be available to the right customers.

Tom.


User currently offlineNorcal773 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1447 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 10177 times:

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 3):
is this speculation or is there some truth behind it, (it



Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
This is purely speculative until we see 787 in AA livery.

Duuh! The thread starter said it was speculation.



If you're going through hell, keep going
User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8988 times:

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 21):
It's important to realize that when Boeing says "the line is sold out" they mean, "If you want to start a new deal with us now, don't expect an airplane before 2014 (or whatever the number currently is)". That's not the same thing as "we have an identified customer for every line position between now and 2014."

Is there any chance that while DL was in CH. 11 they held talks with Boeing asking them to secretly hold some earlier delivery slots and sign an intention to buy when out of CH. 11? DL is a pretty good customer and i'm sure Boeing would set a few aside form them.


User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7305 posts, RR: 85
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8759 times:
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Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 22):
Duuh! The thread starter said it was speculation.

Thanks for clarifying for the thread!  bouncy 

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 21):
They're not options.

I've heard more than once that AMR has moved money to Boeing some time ago.

 twocents 


25 SSTsomeday : Interesting. So when they SAY the line is sold out, it's actually not, but they are saving spaces for preferred customers who would potentially be ma
26 Tdscanuck : It's certainly possible, although I have no idea how one would go about proving it. What I suspect is more likely is that Boeing looked at the recove
27 MIT787 : Excuse me for not knowing the correct words or having a background in business, but with Boeing being DL's largest debt, Boeing was "chair of DL's ba
28 Bmacleod : So apparently AA has some dough to lease 787s but not to buy? Wonder if UA will end up leasing 787s in the short term. It also makes me wonder where N
29 Post contains images Carls : In Aviation News were saying that AA was in conversation with Airbus for some A330 as an interim solution until they get a financial and viable option
30 Norcal773 : ..and I am gonna marry Giselle Budchen this weekend! Will believe that when it happens.
31 Post contains images B752fanatic : Based on the charming and wonderful relations that AA has with Airbus, this is highly probable!
32 Bobnwa : Northwest was in bankruptcy when it ordered the 787 in May 2005. Northwest went into Chapter 11 in September 2005.
33 Post contains images FlagshipAZ : I think it would be cool to see some A330-200/300s in AA's livery. And fly them with PW engines too. Seriously now, it's probably a scare tactic to ge
34 DAYflyer : I'm going to go way out on a limb and say not only the 787 will be leased from ILFC, but also some 738 and 739 as well to replace the mad dogs. AA sim
35 Post contains images Carls : Could be, but the A330 fit perfectly in AA fleet. I know it will be difficult, but if they want to get rid of the old B767, then they could easily us
36 Bobnwa : Please change to NOT in bankruptcy in the first sentence. Small brain fart.
37 WA707atMSP : AA would be making a mistake to replace all of their MD-80s with old-technology 737s now, when they can wait a few years and be one of the first cust
38 2953 : All fine and dandy, but however will they get them in silver? I'm an AA-brat (Pop was an exec with the company for 30+ years) and I can't tell you how
39 ZuluLima : If they really wanted a whole new type in the fleet (that has almost no similarities to current models, including A300), which they don't, then I'm s
40 Carls : Well I think that if TG, EK, VS and all the A345/6 are desperate to get rid of those buses because the fuel consumption as many A.net memebers have s
41 Tdscanuck : Really? I always figured it was majority vote of the bankruptcy commitee. Tom.
42 Azhobo : Didnt airbus say they were going to stop giving away aircraft?
43 Post contains links Azhobo : http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayA...ugust298.xml§ion=business&col= "The Saudi Arabian Airlines is currently in discussions with American aircra
44 Ckfred : What chance is there that AA might order some 787-3s? Remember that AA operations at ORD are capped by the FAA. When the 3rd east-west runway opens ne
45 Jacobin777 : Probably meant KU...which has leased them...
46 MAH4546 : Chances are probably very high, but for high density short/medium-haul routes out of Miami. The chances are pretty close to zero for them to buy them
47 Ckfred : My wife flies AA a lot out of ORD, and a friend of mine is a 757/767 F/O based out of ORD. They have been seeing full airplanes, very long stand-by l
48 MAH4546 : I was flying AA out of O'Hare for four years at least 4 times a month, mainly to Miami, LaGuardia, and LAX, and believe me, I know. I never had an em
49 SSTsomeday : I disagree. That airplane, which doesn't exist even in theory, is logically up to 15 years away from EIS, isn't it? The MD-80 variants would be REALL
50 TAN FLYR : Well, I would!. After recent articles in the Wall Street Journal about slots, over scheduling, etc, I expect the government to eventually have some i
51 MAH4546 : Unlikely. Any AA order for 787-3s will, without a doubt, have the aircraft equipped in an extremely high density, 2-class configuration with a small
52 777STL : Any logic and/or proof to support this assertion?
53 Cjpark : Arik Air 7 789 Azerbaijan 3 788 Ethiopian 8 788 2 789 Kenya 9 788 Northwest 18 788 50 options Uzbekistan 2 788 40 of the 788 and 7 789 are supposedly
54 FLYGUY767 : You think wrong.. The 737-800 is for the most part the replacement for the MD-80 aircraft. Would American Airlines love to have 300 737-800 aircraft
55 HPAEAA : I'm betting it's built in already... AA has gone on record (quarterly conference calls) as saying that they have the ability to acquire the a/c in Sh
56 SirOmega : Am I the only one who thinks they'll stay away from the -3? If you load a -3 up with pax+cargo as much as you can, the range goes down to 1250nm. Out
57 FLYGUY767 : Personally I think the 787-300 is going to be about as popular with the US airlines as the 747-300 was.. I dont think that American Airlines will tak
58 PM : In most cases, very! Why on earth would, say, Kenya Airways not take their 787s? Because they are based in a poor African country? They ordered, took
59 MAH4546 : Would never work. They need the the planes in two entirely different configurations. You cannot send the same planes to Port Au Prince and Tokyo. To
60 Cjpark : Governmental and economic stability of the countries that the airlines are based in is a more likely indicator of whether or not the airplanes will b
61 PM : Then I repeat, "very likely". then the same must be true of Delta and UA whom you are implying might snap up the slots if they become available.
62 Post contains images Azhobo : I never said that Airbus gave away aircraft
63 Post contains images A388 : Agreed. AA in my opinion will become a very large 787-3 customer as this aircraft can replace their 767/757/A300 fleet which is a lot of aircraft. Th
64 ElmoTheHobo : The 787-300 will be a short legged Airbus A300 sized aircraft. There is no way that it will replace 767-200s from a capacity perspective, as the 787-
65 Commavia : I'm not so sure. Of course, even the lowest-density 787-3 configuration would still probably seat at least 200 people, which is a significant (25%+ a
66 Bobnwa : I think the majority of people think they will survive as the had the highest profit margin of all US carriers the last quarter and are forcasted by
67 Cjpark : Be sure to tell your pilots to continue to show up to work.
68 Bobnwa : I'm sure you know that the pilots have already agreed to show up for work in the future, so I don't have to tell them.
69 Ikramerica : Just to be clear, the 767-300 at AA is not 3-class anymore, and the 762 is only 3 class. But I could see AA taking the 762s out and A300s out, and fo
70 777STL : Uh no. The 737-800 is an interim replacement until the next gen 737 replacement is on the market. Those 47 aircraft are just enough to tide AA over u
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