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Virgin America Finally "On Approach" Into SAN?  
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5411 posts, RR: 12
Posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4737 times:

I have been checking constantly and just noticed that on the VX website, under Careers, they have now posted for a San Diego Station Manager! This is the first positive sign that they plan on making good on their many pre-start-up press releases that included SAN as one of the original 6 stations.

I wonder if service could still start in 2007 or if it will be pushed into next year?

(And BTW, there are no other new stations listed with job openings.)

bb

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAs739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6125 posts, RR: 23
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4664 times:

VX vs UA 6 daily and WN 8 daily SFO-SAN. I personally don't see VX doing very well in this market.

ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5411 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4623 times:

Quoting As739x (Reply 1):
VX vs UA 6 daily and WN 8 daily SFO-SAN.

It's actually about 10-11/day for UA but who's counting...

Wouldn't you agree that none of VX's start-up routes is exactly under-served though, ASSFO? As I've pointed out on previous threads, WN is also starting SFO-LAS on 8/26, 7x daily, with other pre-VX competition from UA and US already on the route so I don't see additional SAN service as much different. Virgin doesn't seem too concerned with pre-existing service levels; we'll have to see if that's a mistake or not!

I'm anxious to see if they just do SAN-SFO or throw in a JFK and/or IAD flight as well; in fact, while they're showing no fear of WN, maybe they could enter the SAN-LAS market too... (I'm not real serious about the last thought.  Wink )

Anxiously awaiting more details. Anyone with VX here who can provide any information?

bb


User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4455 times:

I'm guessing they will throw in JFK and LAS, maybe an SFO route so people can continue on, any idea when they will move toward ATL, that will really make competition with DL

User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6125 posts, RR: 23
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 4276 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 2):

I couldn't agree more. The seem to be swaggering into market with named carriers have trenched in. There seems to be nothing that makes VX stand out to me. They have a new product, yes. But other then that, they are not surprising with new routes from SFO or anything. So far I am not to impressed.

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 3):

I don't see VX going to ATL anytime soon. With DL/FL/UA on this market, its well covered. These airlines have multiple connections at their hubs. The traffic from ATL to SFO don't warrant a 4th carrier IMHO.

ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 4221 times:

Quoting AS739X (Reply 4):
I couldn't agree more. The seem to be swaggering into market with named carriers have trenched in. There seems to be nothing that makes VX stand out to me. They have a new product, yes. But other then that, they are not surprising with new routes from SFO or anything. So far I am not to impressed.

What "surprising" new routes are you looking for?

SFO-JAX, SFO-LIT, SFO-BDL, SFO-PWM?

They are vying for popular routes. Their is no problem with that. Free market in the United States allows that..

Quoting AS739X (Reply 4):
I don't see VX going to ATL anytime soon. With DL/FL/UA on this market, its well covered. These airlines have multiple connections at their hubs. The traffic from ATL to SFO don't warrant a 4th carrier IMHO.

Atlanta has been rumored for a while, I would not expect it to become a Virgin America route for a while. There are more important markets to be served first..

Quoting As739x (Reply 1):
VX vs UA 6 daily and WN 8 daily SFO-SAN. I personally don't see VX doing very well in this market

By that margin Jet Blue should have never entered the SFO-JFK, and SFO-BOS markets.. But they have and from what has been told the SFO-JFK is doing well for them..

-JD


User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6125 posts, RR: 23
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 4192 times:

JD Question me all you want. I'm entitled to my opinion, and thats it.

1) JAN/LIT/PWM arn't you exaggerating there?

BDL, why not? United served till 9/11 and never returned. No other carrier offers the service.

2) Atlanta has been rumored, your right. So has 30 other cities!

3) Yes, B6 it doing great! *sarcasim* From what I hear here the loads have been far from fantastic.

Again this is my opinion!

ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4024 times:

Quoting AS739X (Reply 6):
Again this is my opinion!

Thank You... I understand where you are coming from with why you question the reason that Virgin America should enter the heavy hitting JFK-SFO, and SAN-SFO market. The niche if you will is that people really are tired(personal opinion) of the business as usual and if it isnt broke dont fix it attitude of United Airlines. Then you have the cost conscious crowd that flocks to Southwest. Virgin America is a mixture of full service and low cost. It has a definite place in the market, just as Jet Blue. People have been complaining for years about the horrible United Airlines service, and at the same time they have been moaning and groaning about the cattle call known as Southwest. I see no reason to doubt the need for Virgin America in the SFO-SAN market.

-JD


User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6125 posts, RR: 23
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3985 times:

Unsterstanble. I see your point, different from mine, but I do see it.

You really think SAN-SFO needs a 3rd carrier?

UA 10 daily
WN 8 daily *Aug 26th

WN 20 DAILY via Oakland
WN 10 DAILY via San Jose
AA 9 DAILY via San Jose

ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3947 times:

Quoting AS739X (Reply 8):
You really think SAN-SFO needs a 3rd carrier?

I do, I think that United Airlines needs to be challenged now more than ever with their SFO presence...

-JD


User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5411 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3910 times:

As I've mentioned on other threads, I think it's relevant that SAN is the first VX start-up city that does not have VS service to London so it will be interesting, using SAN as a "test case", to see if there is any relationship established (or "connection", if you will  Wink ) between the 2 Virgins for San Diegans interested in flying to London. I certainly don't expect to see advertising directed at that opportunity but I just wonder what will happen on a day-to-day basis; one can only admire the convenience of such a route between Lindbergh and Heathrow...  scratchchin 

And no, I don't think that's the reason VX is interested in San Diego. I just don't think Virgin would ignore a major city an hour and a half away (by air) from their base of operations (maybe hub, we'll wait and see on that) with lots of traffic. I think Virgin is not only committed to San Francisco but to California as well.

I certainly agree with FLYGUY'

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 7):
Virgin America is a mixture of full service and low cost. It has a definite place in the market

and think SAN is no different than LAX, LAS or NYC in deserving and supporting this type of operation.

bb


User currently offlineJetBluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2980 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3880 times:

Quoting AS739X (Reply 6):
3) Yes, B6 it doing great! *sarcasim* From what I hear here the loads have been far from fantastic.

Then your source is wrong. JFK-SFO has been exceeding expectations in both yield and loads - I don't think B6 could have been happier with the result.

As far as VX goes, I don't see SAN being too big of a market for them. First of all, isn't gate space at a premium? Also, any routes that would be served by VX - such as SFO, JFK, or IAD - already have LCC's on them. What more traffic could they possibly stimulate?

JetBluefan1



Most people on a.net hate JetBlue. Get used to it.
User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3850 times:

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 11):
As far as VX goes, I don't see SAN being too big of a market for them. First of all, isn't gate space at a premium? Also, any routes that would be served by VX - such as SFO, JFK, or IAD - already have LCC's on them. What more traffic could they possibly stimulate?

I hate to break your Jet Blue love fest, but the same questioned could have been asked for Jet Blue on 90% of the routes they opened. There is a need in the American market place for airlines that offer both service and low airfares. Routes such as SFO-SAN, SFO-LAS are demand driven and by no means is their a shortage on any given day of passengers travelling from the Bay Area to San Diego. Southwest and United Airlines do not own the rights to the market. They may have impressive numbers of flights, but you underestimate the power that the Virgin name and the quality of the Virgin America product can offer that no other airline in the market can. At the same time while WN will start SFO-SAN, LAS, MDW,it has yet to be seen if they will make all of the routes work.

As can be seen the reality has bit into both Jet Blue and Southwest Airlines this year alone. The mounting delays and lack luster routes of Jet Blue, the Customer Service meltdowns time and time again that have gained Jet Blue a less than adoring reputation as of late. Southwest recently had to drop hub to hub flights with the discontinuation of LAX-BWI, OAK-BWI, as well as LAX-PHL, OAK-PHL. Things are not rosy because of the Southwest name alone. The name can get you only so far. The product that is behind the name retains the passengers. There are some glaring omissions in product with the Southwest Airlines and Jet Blue products.

For Southwest Airlines it is the lack of assigned seating, the lack of premium cabin, and the lack of in-flight IFE(Many say it is not needed, yet more and more airlines are adding and reinstalling IFE to keep competitive with other airlines in the market), or BOB service.

For Jet Blue their is a lack of focus on high yield routes, lack of premium product, lack of BOB(Sorry Biscotti, and Blue Chips dont go far when people are stranded on the tarmac at JFK for 9 hours at a time), lastly the lack of Jet Blue to have a decent plan in place to deal with the Valentines Day Nightmare.

Their is a need for Virgin America, and that need is even more solidified with the business contracts, and driven demand for a product such as Virgin America in the United States for years. Jet Blue is no longer the darling on the block. The Valentines Day Nightmare and so many other mistakes have left people irritated with Jet Blue and taking their business elsewhere. I am sure there will be mistakes with Virgin America, every airline has them. However there business plan is catered to the business traveller, and the yield in mind. That is why they have started with SFO-JFK, SFO-LAX, and will be adding LAX-JFK, SFO-IAD, SFO-LAS, and LAX-IAD. There is a demand for service in those markets.

Unlike Jet Blue who started with routes like LGB-JFK, ONT-JFK, and so forth using alternate airports Virgin America has a plan built on true business oriented airports, in true business/leisure oriented markets. Unlike Southwest who markets serving Boston when they serve MHT, miles and miles away from the true destination.

-JD


User currently offlineSpencerII From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3826 times:

Quoting AS739X (Reply 4):
couldn't agree more. The seem to be swaggering into market with named carriers have trenched in. There seems to be nothing that makes VX stand out to me. They have a new product, yes. But other then that, they are not surprising with new routes from SFO or anything. So far I am not to impressed.

7 days operating, and because they don't serve 50 destinations is inimpressive to some. The things that make you go hummmmmm


User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3805 times:

Quoting SpencerII (Reply 13):
7 days operating, and because they don't serve 50 destinations is inimpressive to some. The things that make you go hummmmmm

There is a reason Alaska Airlines decided to bow out of the SFO-SAN service... Competition that would drive their yields down. I would also argue that Customer Service with Alaska Airlines, and quality of product at Alaska Airlines has been downgraded greatly since 2000.

-JD


User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3744 times:

Quoting AS739X (Reply 4):
I don't see VX going to ATL anytime soon. With DL/FL/UA on this market, its well covered. These airlines have multiple connections at their hubs. The traffic from ATL to SFO don't warrant a 4th carrier IMHO.

i was thinking more of SAN-ATL, it could give some good competition to air tran, low cost but with awesome service, although people might still prefer DL because of the larger planes


User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5411 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3668 times:

I don't think a debate as to whether or not VX should serve SAN is called for since they apparently are and have planned on doing so since their first p r announcing start-up stations was made earlier this year. However, since there seems to be one going on, I thought I'd repeat some facts I posted on another VX thread about 2 weeks ago:
"A point to consider: WN is also starting SFO-LAS (7x daily) the same day (August 26) it starts SAN-SFO (8x a day.)
A few more bits of information: the DOT figures for 4Q06 show the daily O&D one way pax total for SFO-LAS at 1637; SFO-SAN was 988. And, in late August, there will be 22 flights between SAN & SFO, 18 when AS leaves the market a month later. On August 28, 20 flights operate between SFO & LAS, increasing to 23 in early October when VX's flights are added.
" (And increasing further to 25 in November.)

In other words, I certainly don't think the SFO-LAS market is radically different than the SFO-SAN market so I don't really understand why some people don't call VX-to-LAS into question but seem to think VX-to-SAN is bad or at least destined to fail...

My questions remain as to why SAN is being started separate from the other 5 start-up cities and of course when they will start and where they will live at Lindbergh; I am curious as well to see what size operation is planned.

I have been creating system timetables and a/c turn schedules for VX (a difficult task as they continue to change them, primarily by adding a/c and frequencies) and have found that by mid-November, they will be flying 10 320s and 2 319s. Another 319 will be online in January. That means VX will be using 12 or 13 a/c to serve 5 cities! We can forget comparing VX operations to WN: no 25-minute turns or real tight a/c utilization scheme for VX! Without knowing any new a/c delivery or leasee-return information, it's difficult to judge how soon and how fast growth or expansion will occur. (Or particularly, when we might expect to see Virgin landing at Lindbergh for the first time...)

bb


User currently offlineDCAYOW From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 602 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3638 times:

People need to start thinking of VX and SAN as the central nexus of a north - south axis. Sure domestic will be first priority, but intl won't be too far behind 5-10 years out.


Retorne ao céu...
User currently offlineA380fo From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3626 times:

Quoting AS739X (Reply 6):
3) Yes, B6 it doing great! *sarcasim* From what I hear here the loads have been far from fantastic.

Jetblue is not doing so good right now. YAY! i PERSONALLY dont like them AT ALL!! but hey..


User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3604 times:

Another nice thing about this is if they allow you to easily continue on with Virgin atlantic, for example through Virgin America Or Virgin Atlantic website you can Book SAN-LHR with a stop over in SFO and make it a lot easier for international flights out of SAN and keep the whole virgin airline experience

User currently offlineJetBluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2980 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3582 times:

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 12):
I hate to break your Jet Blue love fest, but the same questioned could have been asked for Jet Blue on 90% of the routes they opened.

I certainly understand your points and I respect your opinions - they are well backed and are realistic.

Nonetheless, it still confuses me as to why VX would want to enter into a SAN slugfest. LAX and SFO are different since, well, they are much larger cities and can therefore absorb the increased capacity more easily. However, would it really make sense for VX to enter SAN-JFK/IAD at fares that are already stimulated by an LCC (B6)? That's just shifting traffic - not creating demand. While Virgin does have a strong brand name, will it be enough to get people to leave DL, AA, UA and B6?

As to your point concerning B6 - sure, not everyone likes the fact that they only have snacks and that flights are oftentimes delayed - but there are other advantages that B6 has over VX, such as the more generous legroom. (Not to mention that if B6 is suffering from delays at JFK, chances are any other airline flying there will also be delayed.)

Entering SAN-SFO would make even less sense seeing that WN is already planning to enter the route. WN has tremendous loyalty in both the Bay Area and SoCal; why would VX want to compete with that? The airline is going against all "normal" characteristics that identify markets that are good to enter. It seems that VX wants to enter the routes that tout the most competition, the lowest fares, and the most loyal travelers. Is it a marketing strategy? Perhaps, but if it is then it's going to cost a lot of money, a lot of product investment, and a lot of time.

In any case, I want some of what VX's route planning department is smoking.

JetBluefan1



Most people on a.net hate JetBlue. Get used to it.
User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3564 times:

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 20):
Entering SAN-SFO would make even less sense seeing that WN is already planning to enter the route.

So you are saying a new airline that is based in San Francisco should not go after one of the highest O&D markets in the United States?

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 20):
Nonetheless, it still confuses me as to why VX would want to enter into a SAN slugfest.

Slugfest?

10 flights on United, and 8 on Southwest, doth not make a slugfest..

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 20):
While Virgin does have a strong brand name, will it be enough to get people to leave DL, AA, UA and B6?

Rumor has it that Google is one of the Virgin America clients.. Not bad when you have the hometown business signed to the homestown airline. As much as people would think United is the hometown airline for Chicago, not San Francisco.

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 20):
Entering SAN-SFO would make even less sense seeing that WN is already planning to enter the route. WN has tremendous loyalty in both the Bay Area and SoCal; why would VX want to compete with that?

So because WN is serving a route it doesn't make sense for another airline to serve the route? In reference to the loyalty, it has flickered in recent years. People are looking more for price than the colour on the side of the plane. However I would draw attention to the fact that people have become very savvy when booking they look both at cost, and at product. When WN and Virgin America offer the same fare, I am willing to bet that business people will opt for the internet that Virgin America offers, and Southwest does not.

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 20):
However, would it really make sense for VX to enter SAN-JFK/IAD at fares that are already stimulated by an LCC (B6)?

So are you trying to say that Virgin America should not enter a route because Jet Blue serves the route?

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 20):
It seems that VX wants to enter the routes that tout the most competition, the lowest fares, and the most loyal travelers. Is it a marketing strategy?

No less of a marketing strategy than Jet Blue when they entered JFK-LAS, JFK-SFO, NYC-FLL, and NYC-ORD

-JD


User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6125 posts, RR: 23
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3511 times:

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 11):

If you can, are you able to send me any numbers? My source is within B6. But I will take it with a grain of salt till proved otherwise.

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 15):

Just that both DL and FL have over 25 tranferring destinations from ATL. But would be nice to see them on the route.

I am all for VX, so don't get me wrong everyone. But there just doesn't seem to be anything unique in my eye. A little more glitz in the plane. But I look at it as price is price. When they are not able to under cut other carriers prices on orbitz, priceline, etc., then all that glitz won't matter. And I like that fact they are a hometown carrier and creating jobs, though most our contract services and VX jobs are low paying.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 21):

Remember that WN in starting with 8 flights to SAN and 7 LAS. This is with only 2 gates to start operations. They will have 4 gates quickly and 15 new planes before the end of the year. VX will have no more then 12-14 before then end of the year. The 4 A319 will stay with their wetlease airlines. WN can very quickly flood the market if they wanted. Lets just see how WN wants to react.

ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
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