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After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU  
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Posted (7 years 1 month ago) and read 5467 times:

Recently during the SkyTeam board meeting KE officially announced that it is seeking to operate flights to GRU KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB (by LIPZ Jun 6 2007 in Civil Aviation). MOst probably the flights would operate via LAX, and KE already operated ICN-LAX-GRU in the past.

The Malaysian Government sent a delegation to Brasilia to discuss the possibility of MH to open a route to Brazil. No detailed information had been disclosed about the meeting. MH already operates KUL-JNB-CPT-EZE twice a week with the B747. Considering that the South African Government will certainly not allow MH to operate the lucrative JNB-GRU markt, MH could be examing to operate flights to GRU via Europe: VIE, AMS, FCO, ZRH are among the possibilities. Currently operations via North America would not be attractive since MH operates to LAX with a stop-over in TPE and to JFK with a stop-over in OSL.

Another possibility would be to open GRU with a new destination in Africa such as SkyTeam hub in NBO.

EK already confirmed its flight DXB-GRU starting next month 6 x week with the B772LR, and will be the front runner in opening "new gateways" in the GRU hub.

Rgs,

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePlaneGuy27 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month ago) and read 5432 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
and to JFK with a stop-over in OSL.

That flight operates over ARN, not OSL


User currently offlineB742 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 3768 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (7 years 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5404 times:

Quoting PlaneGuy27 (Reply 1):
Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
and to JFK with a stop-over in OSL.

That flight operates over ARN, not OSL

And goes to EWR not JFK.

However interesting developments; wouldn't have pictured MH wanting another South American route after EZE.

Rob!  wave 


User currently offline9MMAR From Malaysia, joined Jul 2006, 2110 posts, RR: 18
Reply 3, posted (7 years 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5404 times:

A very interesting news.

Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
MH could be examing to operate flights to GRU via Europe: VIE, AMS, FCO, ZRH are among the possibilities.

MH is no longer serve VIE and I personally think it won't be added just for being a stop over for GRU. I think, ZRH would be ideal as the KUL-ZRH sector performs quite badly and was kept only because of certain important individuals want it to be sustained.

Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
Currently operations via North America would not be attractive since MH operates to LAX with a stop-over in TPE and to JFK with a stop-over in OSL.

MH doesn't serve JFK via OSL. MH serves EWR via ARN.

Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
Another possibility would be to open GRU with a new destination in Africa such as SkyTeam hub in NBO.

There was a talk being held between the Malaysian and Kenyan governments about a possible air link between Kuala Lumpur and Nairobi during our Prime Minister's visit to Kenya. It was reported in many publications.


User currently offlineDellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 1088 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (7 years 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5352 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
The Malaysian Government sent a delegation to Brasilia to discuss the possibility of MH to open a route to Brazil. No detailed information had been disclosed about the meeting. MH already operates KUL-JNB-CPT-EZE twice a week with the B747. Considering that the South African Government will certainly not allow MH to operate the lucrative JNB-GRU markt, MH could be examing to operate flights to GRU via Europe: VIE, AMS, FCO, ZRH are among the possibilities. Currently operations via North America would not be attractive since MH operates to LAX with a stop-over in TPE and to JFK with a stop-over in OSL.

Honestly, I doubt MH is going to open flights to GRU. There is just no market between both countries and this flight would need a strong stopover point (South Africa). Europe is just not feasible for this kind of operation.

I do believe that new airlines are going to start looking into GRU for potential new routes to Middle East & Asia. My best candidates would be: Qatar Aiways, Turkish Airlines, ANA, Singapore Airlines, Thai Airways & Air New Zealand.

I could see in around 2015 flights from Brazil to India, North Africa & SE Asia.


User currently offlinePhilzh From Switzerland, joined May 2007, 146 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5308 times:

Quoting 9MMAR (Reply 3):
the KUL-ZRH sector performs quite badly and was kept only because of certain important individuals want it to be sustained.

Hmmm... it's been a while since I flew MH between KUL and ZRH, but then I had the impression that the flights were pretty nicely filled, at least in cattle class. Do you have any sort of numbers?

TIA.

It would be a shame to lose MH in ZRH, IMHO -- I really like flying with them, and I'm looking forward to staying in KUL again sometime.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 6, posted (7 years 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5295 times:

Quoting 9MMAR (Reply 3):
There was a talk being held between the Malaysian and Kenyan governments about a possible air link between Kuala Lumpur and Nairobi during our Prime Minister's visit to Kenya. It was reported in many publications.

I think KUL-NBE-GRU would be a very interesting route, especially is Kenyan Airways also puts its code in the flight allowing for connections in Africa.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 4):
Honestly, I doubt MH is going to open flights to GRU. There is just no market between both countries and this flight would need a strong stopover point (South Africa).

MH already operates EZE. The point isnt about demand Maysia-Brazil, but rather the connections MH may offer through its hub in KUL and the additional market it could open between say GRU-NBE, for example.

If MH can operate EZE it can also operate GRU, however, I o agree that both EK an KE have more chances of sucess.

Rgs.


User currently offlinePzurita1 From Greenland, joined Sep 2002, 1393 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (7 years 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5239 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 6):
I think KUL-NBE-GRU

Hardiww,

I guess you mean NBO and not NBE.

PZ



Next flight: IAH-DBX-MRU-ANT
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5225 times:

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 4):
Europe is just not feasible for this kind of operation.

It might be - CA operate GRU-MAD-BJS (which must be a pig of a flight) - that is North Asia, not SE Asia, but still, must be do-able.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32776 posts, RR: 72
Reply 9, posted (7 years 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5225 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
MOst probably the flights would operate via LAX, and KE already operated ICN-LAX-GRU in the past.

Korean Air has stated their intention to fly to Miami in the near future. It would be interesting to see if they made a Sao Paulo route via Miami, as it could help reduce the risk involved in flying to Florida.



a.
User currently offlineXA744 From Mexico, joined Mar 2004, 734 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (7 years 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5164 times:

My friends, GRU, together with SCL, came up, for the first time, at the company´s 5 year biz plan presentation in KL in 1998. Sao Paulo was to be an extension to CPT ( 3 X ); and SCL as an extension to EZE ( 2 X ). At the same time, it was proposed by the MEX stn, to extend the 2 x KUL-TPE-LAX-MEX to LIM, in a joint operation with Aeromexico ex MEX, something that was approved by Chairman Dato Tajudin Ramli himself, but sadly and stupidly rejected by the Mexican carrier. You see, Malaysia´s PM at that time, Dato Mahatir Mohammed, was very keen in developing commercial and political ties with Latin America. I will always very much appreciate that.

Now, in a 2007 environment, I wouldn´t know about further expansion to South America by MAS. My feelings are that the airline should achieve reconversion and a healthy financial status, before even thinking about starting risky and unpredictable markets again. 9MMAR, any thoughts on this one ?

Best regards



No matter how you fly...just never get your wings clipped !
User currently offlineDellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 1088 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (7 years 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5066 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 6):
MH already operates EZE. The point isnt about demand Maysia-Brazil, but rather the connections MH may offer through its hub in KUL and the additional market it could open between say GRU-NBE, for example.

Why on earth would any pax fly GRU-NBO-KUL and then connect to anywhere in Southeast Asia & Australia??? With the new EK flights to Brazil this seems even more unlikely to happen. This flight through NBO would be a money loser. The fact is that KUL is not good hub when traveling to Asia, having severe competition from many other cities suchs as SIN, BKK, HKG, NRT have many more options than KUL. Sorry but KUL is no DXB, nor MH is anything like EK.

Also NBO has very few ties with Brazil. This means the flight would count basically in connections to Africa & Middle East, in which NBO can't compete with.

So as you can see, there's no point for such service. Now if MH wants to waste their "beloved aircrafts" in such route, be my guest....


User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5053 times:

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 11):
This flight through NBO would be a money loser.

For what reason?

People said the same thing when EK announced Dubai to Sao Paulo..

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 11):
The fact is that KUL is not good hub when traveling to Asia

Why isnt Kuala Lumpur a good hub?

Malaysia Airlines offers 99 destinations from Kuala Lumpur, that is more than Emirates from Dubai..

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 11):
Sorry but KUL is no DXB, nor MH is anything like EK

I would have to argue with that I have flown both and they are both on par with the Malaysia Airlines crews being a bit more friendly, and always willing to go the extra mile..

-JD


User currently offlineChrisrad From Australia, joined Dec 2000, 1069 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (7 years 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4971 times:

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 11):
The fact is that KUL is not good hub when traveling to Asia, having severe competition from many other cities suchs as SIN, BKK, HKG, NRT have many more options than KUL. Sorry but KUL is no DXB, nor MH is anything like EK.

The fact is that KUL has no competition as MH is the only airline flying directly to many destinations from there. And you are right, KUL is nothing like DXB, I don't see people lying and sleeing on the floor like a third world airport in KUL. Nor do I see EK winning any awards for service or quality.



Welcome aboard Malaysia Airlines! Winner of Best Cabin Staff 2001,2002,2003,2004,2007,2009,2012
User currently offlineDellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 1088 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (7 years 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4939 times:

Quoting Chrisrad (Reply 13):
The fact is that KUL has no competition as MH is the only airline flying directly to many destinations from there. And you are right, KUL is nothing like DXB, I don't see people lying and sleeing on the floor like a third world airport in KUL. Nor do I see EK winning any awards for service or quality.



Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 12):
Why isnt Kuala Lumpur a good hub?

Malaysia Airlines offers 99 destinations from Kuala Lumpur, that is more than Emirates from Dubai..



Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 12):
I would have to argue with that I have flown both and they are both on par with the Malaysia Airlines crews being a bit more friendly, and always willing to go the extra mile..

Well, considering EK is way bigger & more recognized than MH, DXB itself is set to be an world hub with the opening of Jebel Ali Airport, is very simple to understand why DXB & EK are not even comparable with KUL & MH. The chances of EK flight in Brazil are tremendous, on the other hand, MH offer little to Latin American pax, specially in Brazil. It's a matter of location.

Regarding NBO, I guess I don't even have to point out the difference.


User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4755 posts, RR: 26
Reply 15, posted (7 years 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4825 times:

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 11):
The fact is that KUL is not good hub when traveling to Asia, having severe competition from many other cities suchs as SIN, BKK, HKG, NRT have many more options than KUL. Sorry but KUL is no DXB, nor MH is anything like EK.

I think you might have been sleeping under a rock for a while now my friend. While MAS is not known in your part of the world, this airline is one of the largest in SE Asia in terms of fleet size (Although shrunken through numerous BTPs, but still a sizeable one nonetheless).

If they time their GRU-KUL arrivals right, they will hit the bank of morning regional depatures to the short hops, north Asia, and Australia (PER, MEL and SYD). Likewise the return will have these bank of flights to feed into the GRU bound flight set to depart at 12am or something. To say that KUL is not a good hub is wrong... but not as good compared to SIN and BKK, thats true. But KUL function very well in its own right with MAS monopolising so many sectors simply because their competitors cannot make that route work.



Welcome to my starry one world alliance, a team in the sky!
User currently offlineQatarA340 From Qatar, joined May 2006, 1831 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (7 years 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4713 times:

QR will start flights to Brazil from January 2008, according to the Qatari Ambassador to Brazil. It was in the news, and the flight will be nonstop. I am not sure though if that indeed is the case.


لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
User currently offlineMAS777 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 1999, 2935 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (7 years 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4664 times:

Quoting 9MMAR (Reply 3):
and was kept only because of certain important individuals want it to be sustained.

This is a proverbial problem at MAS and I hope Idris Jala continues to prune MAS appropriately so that it may grow stronger.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 11):
nor MH is anything like EK.

True - Many would say MH is way ABOVE EK.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 14):
MH offer little to Latin American pax

As others have commented (and in another thread where loads of MH's EZE-CPT-JNB-KUL route was discussed), MAS does seem to offer a good niche market for Latin America. With excellent connections at KUL for Thailand, Singapore, Indonesia, Philippines, Vietnam, other parts of Southeast Asia, certain ports in India and a variety of cities in China and Taiwan - i think there should be room to grow even as you pointed out there may be little O&D traffic between Latin America and KUL itself...

The same is true for Emirates and Dubai if you wish to compare - but as we've established - perhaps somewhat like comparing 'apples and oranges'...


In my opinion - i think MAS has always been keener to serve Brazil (rather than EZE) in South America as there are actually MORE links in regards to trade and industry between Brazil and Malaysia - in particular, Rubber, Agriculture and most importantly the PetroChemical Industry and (i have reasonable sources to think...) that a KUL-West Africa-GRU service might be something MAS might be considering - with Lagos a possible stopover point (given the sizeable Nigerian population that seems to be growing in Malaysia to help boost loads).


(Nairobi btw - if plans go ahead - will be most likely to be a codeshare with KQ and not involve MH aircraft)


User currently offlineDellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 1088 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (7 years 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4616 times:

Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 15):
I think you might have been sleeping under a rock for a while now my friend. While MAS is not known in your part of the world, this airline is one of the largest in SE Asia in terms of fleet size (Although shrunken through numerous BTPs, but still a sizeable one nonetheless).

If they time their GRU-KUL arrivals right, they will hit the bank of morning regional depatures to the short hops, north Asia, and Australia (PER, MEL and SYD). Likewise the return will have these bank of flights to feed into the GRU bound flight set to depart at 12am or something. To say that KUL is not a good hub is wrong... but not as good compared to SIN and BKK, thats true. But KUL function very well in its own right with MAS monopolising so many sectors simply because their competitors cannot make that route work.

I think who is sleeping here is you. Of course MH is one of Asia's best airlines, and KUL Airport has a great infrastructure that makes connections easy. I'm just saying when compared to other more importanta hubs like SIN, BKK, HKG, NRT and so on, KUL lacks in offering more options to pax in general. It's a fact that among the Asian hubs, KUL is way below in flights to Europe, N America & Africa. That could also be seen in some Asian destinations. The only part where they truly offer good connections is Australia & SE Asia. (mainly for EU, Indian & Middle East pax)

Now to say MH will be sucessful in Brazil flying through NBO or even LOS is just silly. Maybe they could work something with the New Zealand or South African govt.


User currently offlineTreeHillRavens From Malaysia, joined Jun 2007, 398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4465 times:

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 4):
Honestly, I doubt MH is going to open flights to GRU. There is just no market between both countries and this flight would need a strong stopover point (South Africa). Europe is just not feasible for this kind of operation.

This flight (assume MAS start one) will work as long as MAS has a good stopover point in Europe. MAS can focus on O&D. Let say GRU/MUC (assume MUC is chosen as MH stopover point) and MUC/KUL. Normally the return ticket GRU-KULvv is A LOT cheaper than GRU-MUCvv & MUC-KULvv return tickets combined. MAS can earn more money this way.

I believe there is no market between MEX & KUL either but MEX worked perfectly well for MAS. Most of the passengers travelling on MH to MEX were mostly O&D between LAX/MEX. A market won't build up on its own. You have to create one.


User currently offlineXA744 From Mexico, joined Mar 2004, 734 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (7 years 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4444 times:

Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 19):
Most of the passengers travelling on MH to MEX were mostly O&D between LAX/MEX. A market won't build up on its own. You have to create one.

Very well said, seems to me that you know quite a bit about MH´s ops in the past.

MAS had to pull out of MEX after its LAX-MEX 5th freedom rights were removed by the Mexican Civil Aviation Authority, in December 1998.

Best regards



No matter how you fly...just never get your wings clipped !
User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4433 times:

Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 15):
Well, considering EK is way bigger & more recognized than MH, DXB itself is set to be an world hub with the opening of Jebel Ali Airport, is very simple to understand why DXB & EK are not even comparable with KUL & MH.

The above is nothing more than a personal opinion and is far from being a fact based statement. I would draw your attention to the many destinations that MH flies to that Emirates does not.

Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 15):
The chances of EK flight in Brazil are tremendous, on the other hand, MH offer little to Latin American pax, specially in Brazil. It's a matter of location.

That is opinion, not a fact..

Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 15):
I think you might have been sleeping under a rock for a while now my friend.

100% Agreed..  thumbsup 

Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 19):
Now to say MH will be sucessful in Brazil flying through NBO or even LOS is just silly.

Your right connecting the African commerce centers of Nairobi and Lagos to Sao Paulo makes no sense at all. You are so right that the oil traffic heading to Brazil from Lagos should have to fly via MXP, AMS, or CDG. Your wisdom is so overwhelming I dont know what to do..

 sarcastic   sarcastic   sarcastic   sarcastic 

-JD


User currently offlineDellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 1088 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (7 years 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4316 times:

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 21):
The above is nothing more than a personal opinion and is far from being a fact based statement. I would draw your attention to the many destinations that MH flies to that Emirates does not.



Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 21):
That is opinion, not a fact..



Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 21):
Your right connecting the African commerce centers of Nairobi and Lagos to Sao Paulo makes no sense at all. You are so right that the oil traffic heading to Brazil from Lagos should have to fly via MXP, AMS, or CDG. Your wisdom is so overwhelming I dont know what to do..

It is my personal opinion.. If u don't like, it is your problem, not mine.

Even than, my opinion is based on the fact that this kind of service pretended by MH very risky. MH has a niche market in EZE, which they've been flying for quite some time now. If they kept this flight even after sacking out European gateways such as VIE, MUC & MAN, it must work out for them. Now, I presume South African authorities won't give MH the same rights to Brazil. They will have to look for an other stopover, and I don't think there are many ones left.

U can say in theory, that MH has a big catchment are from KUL, but that doesn't mean it will work.

Now, if this so glamored oil traffic from Brazil to Africa really existed, why isn't anyone flying it right now? Simply because this market is to thin for such service. Oceanaie has been preparing their LOS & LAD service for a couple of months now, and so far nothing... Even after they commence it, it's suppose to go only 2 x wekly.


User currently offlineTreeHillRavens From Malaysia, joined Jun 2007, 398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (7 years 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4224 times:

Quoting XA744 (Reply 20):
Very well said, seems to me that you know quite a bit about MH´s ops in the past.

Thanks  Smile


User currently offlineFly2CHC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4162 times:

If I were MH, I would look at KUL-SYD-AKL-GRU. After all, this is what SQ have had their eyes on for many years (without the additional SYD stop).

25 FLYGUY767 : I am going to throw my two cents into how they may route these services: KUL-CPT-EZE 3x 777-200 = 10221 mi KUL-JNB-GRU 3x 777-200 = 9915 mi The reason
26 HB-IWC : MH is a company in the process of restructuring itself, and it is in no position to embark on ventures like some of the ones discussed in this thread
27 USFlyer MSP : Didnt RG operate GRU-NBO-HKG when the first received their MD-11s?
28 Dellatorre : Thanks....................
29 Knightsofmalta : I seriously doubt that MH will start flying to GRU via ZRH. At least not if they're hoping to actually make money...
30 Airbazar : You can't possibly compare these two hubs and seriously believe that the traffic potential between NBO and GRU is just as large and as valuable as DX
31 Hardiwv : Traffic LAD-GIG is basically O&D. LAD an TAGG are no real option for connections. Look at SA performance in GRU, one of its most profitable destinati
32 Airbazar : The value of SA's flight to GRU is to offer connections to Asia and Australia and not so much to Africa. There's little high yield traffic demand bet
33 KEno : Before we all start daydreaming about MH opening out yet another exotic far-flung destination, consider these few examples: The 3x weekly EWR very nea
34 Fly2CHC : Yes, but you must remember that in Malaysia, regardless of what the CEO of MH says, the airline often creates and retains routes for non purely comme
35 ZK-NBT : AKL is another route only served 5x weekly with a 772, from what I hear loads are good. They used to have daily 744's that were usually full but deman
36 Hardiwv : You are wrong. More than 80% of SA pax to/from GRU have as final destination JNB or other destinations in Africa. The share of Asia/Australia is very
37 KEno : Keeping a poorly peforming route, or suspending it, is a lot easier than launching a new one. We have yet to hear any official explanation on why EZE
38 Incitatus : These routes just don't sound very clever in this decade. Who say, in Surabaya, wanting to fly to Lima, would go SUB-KUL-TPE-LAX-MEX-LIM? Only an Ind
39 HB-IWC : Whatever the reason may be for EZE's continued presence in the MH network, the route has, for as long as I've seen numbers, never ever been in the bl
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