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MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs  
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6495 posts, RR: 2
Posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 18655 times:

I have a rather interesting question.

Delta has stated that they don't plan on retiring their MD-88s in the short term. They have stated that the MD-88s have lower operating costs than the 737-800s, as they are fully paid for. I actually find this quite odd, as AA would tend to disagree. AA is preparing to retire their oldest MD-82s and replace them with 737-800s. However, AA's MD-80 fleet is more than twice as large as Delta's, and their oldest MD-82s were probably delivered before Delta's oldest MD-88. However, AA operates MD-83s made as late as 1999.

Does anyone know how do the operating costs compare between the MD-80 and 737-800? If you assumed that both were fully paid for, the 737-800 would probably be lower, however, Delta and American are still paying for their 737-800s. AA might also still be paying for their newest MD-83s.

[Edited 2007-08-18 01:51:47]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
64 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBrendows From Norway, joined Apr 2006, 1020 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 18622 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
They have stated that the MD-88s have lower operating costs than the 737-800s, as they are fully paid for.

Are you sure they have stated that the operating costs are lower for the MD-88? I can believe it if they said ownership costs, but not when it comes to operating costs...


User currently offlineVasu From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 3900 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 18618 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
AA operates MD-83s made as late as 1999

Wow, never knew some were as young as this!


User currently offlineMPDPilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 991 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 18606 times:

Quoting Brendows (Reply 1):
Are you sure they have stated that the operating costs are lower for the MD-88? I can believe it if they said ownership costs, but not when it comes to operating costs...

wouldn't operating cost include ownership costs and everything.



One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6495 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 18590 times:

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 3):
wouldn't operating cost include ownership costs and everything.

Yes, operating costs include ownership costs. When the ownership costs are excluded, the 737-800 would be cheaper to operate.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineFlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 18582 times:

American has the MD-80 ever assembled. N984TW was built for TWA in late 1999.
Regards.



"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4763 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 18564 times:
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http://www.airlineempires.net/index...._content&task=view&id=51&Itemid=61
DL 05 Q2
738
Flight Crew Cost $748
Fuel Cost $1,266
Other Costs $87

Total Flying Cost $2,101

Direct Main. - Airframe $219
Direct Main. - Engines $132
Total Direct Maintenance $351
Maintenance Burden $153

Total Maintenance Costs $504

Depreciation $373
Aircraft Rent $96

Total Cost per Block Hour $3,098


MD80
Flight Crew Cost $694
Fuel Cost $1,457
Other Costs $92

Total Flying Cost $2,242

Direct Main. - Airframe $203
Direct Main. - Engines $139
Total Direct Maintenance $342
Maintenance Burden $138

Total Maintenance Costs $480

Depreciation $247
Aircraft Rent $216

Total Cost per Block Hour $3,226


User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5779 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 18564 times:

If I remember correctly, the MD-80 series typically have operating costs similar to second-gen 737s. like the -300.
Now, Delta's MD-88 has more efficient engines (I believe the -219) than AA's MD-82s.

Some of American's MD-80s are ancient... 1984 builds, etc. And, Delta's lease rates on the 737-832s must be painful, as bankrupt carriers (as Delta was at the time) don't get good terms.

I wouldn't be surprised at all that Delta's MD-88s are costing them less than 738s. Long term, of course, that will change.


User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4763 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 18547 times:
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AA numbers

738
Flight Crew Cost $738
Fuel Cost $1,248
Other Costs $50

Total Flying Cost $2,035

Direct Main. - Airframe $98
Direct Main. - Engines $24
Total Direct Maintenance $122
Maintenance Burden $84

Total Maintenance Costs $206

Depreciation $259
Aircraft Rent $113

Total Cost per Block Hour $2,628

Md80
Flight Crew Cost $603
Fuel Cost $1,489
Other Costs $54

Total Flying Cost $2,147

Direct Main. - Airframe $184
Direct Main. - Engines $165
Total Direct Maintenance $349
Maintenance Burden $238

Total Maintenance Costs $587

Depreciation $86
Aircraft Rent $192

Total Cost per Block Hour $3,093


User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6495 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 18534 times:

Hmm, I wonder where do Delta's MD-90s fit in. The MD-90s have more fuel efficient engines than the MD-88s, but maintenance costs are probably very high for the MD-90s.


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineTrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2350 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 18523 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
However, AA's MD-80 fleet is more than twice as large as Delta's, and their oldest MD-82s were probably delivered before Delta's oldest MD-88. However, AA operates MD-83s made as late as 1999.

You're right, the oldest AA MD-82 was built in 1983, while the oldest DL MD-88 was delivered in 1987. My understanding is the MD-88 is cheaper to operate as they have better engines than the MD-82, as someone earlier mentioned. But this does not apply to the younger MD-83's. Also, some of AA's very oldest MD-82's might not have the tail mod and therefore are more drag prone.



There's nothing quite like a tri-jet.
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9353 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 18471 times:

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 7):
Some of American's MD-80s are ancient... 1984 builds, etc. And, Delta's lease rates on the 737-832s must be painful, as bankrupt carriers (as Delta was at the time) don't get good terms.

DL owns there 737-800s

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 10):
You're right, the oldest AA MD-82 was built in 1983, while the oldest DL MD-88 was delivered in 1987. My understanding is the MD-88 is cheaper to operate as they have better engines than the MD-82, as someone earlier mentioned. But this does not apply to the younger MD-83's. Also, some of AA's very oldest MD-82's might not have the tail mod and therefore are more drag prone.

DL has 8 MD-82s and has modified them into 88s
tail #s: N901DE, N902DE, N903DE, N904DE, N906DE, N907DE, N908DE.....Ships 9001-9008
(N908DE is a shuttle a/c) Del 4/3/92-11/30/92....oldest 88 3/9/87 N901DL(which is leased) oldest non leased is N926DL 10/20/88



yep.
User currently offlineItsnotfinals From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 18385 times:

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 11):
DL owns there 737-800s

and by own you mean they have a loan to pay for them, over 200K per month per plane or so.


User currently offlineTrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2350 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 18201 times:

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 11):
DL has 8 MD-82s and has modified them into 88s
tail #s:

Really, just eight? I know they was the first MD-80's they received but I thought it included the reg. #'s up to N912DL.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
The MD-90s have more fuel efficient engines than the MD-88s, but maintenance costs are probably very high for the MD-90s.

I think you're right with that assumption. In addition, compared to the MD-83 the MD-90 has less range.



There's nothing quite like a tri-jet.
User currently offlineMD80fanatic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2660 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 18186 times:

Delta's numbers......

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 6):
Total Cost per Block Hour $3,098

^ 738

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 6):
Total Cost per Block Hour $3,226

^ MD88


Boy O Boy.......that sure is a whole heck of a lot closer than some diehard "B" fans care to admit. You guys still think those "antiquated" old maddogs desperately in need of a new, more efficient, wing.....are a true money hog?

HA HA  rotfl 


All hail to modern high-tech aviation science!!!! Saving the Earth.....one green plane at a time.  Yeah sure


User currently offline707lvr From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 583 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 18139 times:

No wonder it's so hard to make money in the airline business. We could argue all night over how to begin figuring it: 738 crew makes that much more? Depreciation goes into operating costs? Say it does belong there, why would you have depreciation and rent in aircraft? Why such a huge difference in engine maintenance costs? I don't get this.

User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8495 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 18136 times:

I would not believe those numbers for a second.

Ownership costs higher for a MD-80 than a 737 NG? Yeah right. Whatever. It is very unlikely the real numbers are available outside of DL and AA.


User currently offlineFlyAAS80 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 100 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 18059 times:

Once again... LONG LIVE THE MADDOGS!  goodvibes 

I too find those numbers very hard to believe. I am a true fan of the MD80, don't get me wrong, I just find it a little hard to believe that those numbers are public knowledge.



The only way to fly is by the seat of your pants...
User currently offlineFlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 18019 times:

If AA has over 300+ MD-80s, they must be doing something right with the aircraft. The 738 came online only to replace AA's 727 fleet. The MD-80 was a supplement to the 727. Now the 738 fleet is unlikely to ever see 300 airframes with AA, but probably 150 at the most. Remember, phasing out 300 MD-80s is not going to happen overnight. The 47 new 738s coming in the next 2-3 yrs will replace roughly the oldest 35-40 MD-80s, while adding some capacity.
Don't write off the Mad Dogs yet, they still have life in them for the foreseeable future.
Regards.



"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4763 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 17828 times:
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Quoting Flighty (Reply 16):
I would not believe those numbers for a second.

Ownership costs higher for a MD-80 than a 737 NG? Yeah right. Whatever. It is very unlikely the real numbers are available outside of DL and AA.

those are the numbers the airlines report to the DoT


User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 17809 times:

Quoting Vasu (Reply 2):

Wow, never knew some were as young as this!

They came in via the TWA merger, as TWA got some of the last MD-80 family a/c that came off of the production line.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 16):
I would not believe those numbers for a second.

I'm skeptical too, since the numbers came from a site dedicated to an airline management simulation game. That takes a bit of the credibility away in the info, even if it is the real numbers.


In some respects, perhaps it is more expensive for an airline to operate a 738 than a MD-88. Especially if they are used in completely different roles. If you're sending your 738s on longer runs the number of flights a day it can do is less, especially if you're using the MD-88s on shorter flights.

One of the advantages AA has with having hubs @ DFW, STL, and ORD, is that a good number of cities are reachable with the MD-80s. DL, on the other hand, does have that advantage due to the location of their hubs (and they shuttered their DFW hub several years back).


User currently offlineSomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3374 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 17786 times:

SAS claimed in their latest annual report that the cost of operating their MD-80 where aprox. equal to their 737NG. The fuel costs is of course much higher on the 737, but the Md-80 have been fully depreciated (in addition to being build to last forever......like their former DC-9, which many now flies for NW)

User currently offlineLH417AF025 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 17773 times:

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 11):
DL has 8 MD-82s and has modified them into 88s

how do they modify an 82 into an 88? what does that entail?


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7062 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 17762 times:

Quoting LH417AF025 (Reply 22):
how do they modify an 82 into an 88? what does that entail?

From the outside you can see the difference by the different tail cone as I have just been thought by a fellow a.netter



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineFlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 17762 times:

I believe the difference between the MD-82 and the MD-88, is that the -82 used the old dials & gauges in the cockpit while the -88 is all-glass. Plus minor engine tweaking too. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here.
Regards.



"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
25 TriStar500 : That is just plain wrong. The "newer" tailcone became standard on any MD-80 produced after 1986/7 or so and was also available as a retrofit for olde
26 Itsnotfinals : those costsa have nothing to do with "Green", only the fuel burn does. It sure does, because as you use the plane it's value and useful life are dimi
27 Transpac787 : AA began a replacement program some time ago, to retrofit all MD-82's with the JT8D-219, replacing the JT8D-217. All of their MD-83's were delivered
28 DfwRevolution : Fanatic - a person filled with excessive and single-minded zeal Doesn't that describes your position well? You may think that $200 per hour is insign
29 TinPusher007 : How could the fuel costs of a 737NG be higher than on an MD-80? The '88 actually isn't ALL glass...there are still backup steam gauges in the cockpit
30 AASTEW : With AA modifying the '82 with 219's and different tail cones does that make them more like '88's without glass cockpits. AASTEW
31 Transpac787 : They aren't performing official conversions to MD-88, if that's what you meant?? They're just updating the fleet to be as fuel-efficient as possible
32 Columba : Siis there another way to tell the difference between a MD 82,83,88 ?
33 1337Delta764 : They are getting the MD-88 style tailcone. The cockpits will remain the old-style.
34 1337Delta764 : In the cabin, I believe that one difference in the MD-88 is the lavatory signs. The MD-82 only has them at the lavatories, while the MD-88 has ceilin
35 ContnlEliteCMH : The difference between the two figures is $128/hour. Suppose each plane flies 4,000 hours per year for 10 years. That's 40,000 total hours. According
36 ConcordeBoy : 1) DL's aren't leases 2) One of the entire points of Chpt11 is cost negotiation--- that's why UA was seen parking 777s in favor of 747s not too long
37 Cloudboy : How does the 737NG stack up against the 717?
38 1337Delta764 : The 737-600 has more range than the 717, but is much heavier. The 717 is considered to be more efficient than the 737-600 for shorter routes. The ope
39 Flighty : Assuming the MD-80 and B737 are close to equal -- and I believe they are -- the breakdown Yeah, but those numbers don't scale well. I think AA and DL
40 N766UA : I see mad dogs pulling mechanicals FAR more often than 738s, or even our old 732s. That's gotta count for something when the airplane is sitting on t
41 TinPusher007 : But it doesn't BURN as much. And if you're basing your cost theory on how much each a/c carries, than doesn't your statement about some 80's tanking
42 Transpac787 : This isn't completely true either. AA has updated a lot of the cockpits with the glass displays. These aren't the newer ex-TW birds either, but some
43 ElmoTheHobo : While American has most all of the newest MD-80s on the books, many are sitting in storage or have been withdrawn from use. IIRC even N984TW is in st
44 TrijetsRMissed : The priority is update the flightdeck of the originally delivered MD-83's. I doubt the MD-82's will see the update. There are only a handful of 1999
45 ContnlEliteCMH : My post didn't mention a fleet swap. It's a given that neither Delta nor American will be simply discarding the Mad Dog's in favor of 738's, for the
46 MD80fanatic : That's me. It's not often I get to spout off about my favorite plane.....but when the opportunity presents itself, you can count on me to issue a com
47 ElmoTheHobo : I stand corrected! As I remember, a number of ex-TWA MD-80s were coming up on heavy maintenance, and, with the realignments at DFW/MIA/ORD/STL, these
48 Itsnotfinals : It's probably good you don't have shareholders and employees to worry about, in a tigth margin, capitol intensive inducstry 6-7 % can make the differ
49 Itsnotfinals : Sorry for the typos. That's what I get with a new laptop and posting at 7AM. Another thing to think about Operating costs include depreciation and ove
50 ContnlEliteCMH : Not literally. Not figuratively. You really think they make $500,000 profit per day per plane? Delta has 450-ish planes in their fleet. (Clickety cli
51 Cloudy : Airtran's CEO said on a conference call that its 737's use less fuel than the 717 even when figuring by pounds per trip. In other words, the 737 uses
52 Sllevin : Depreciation is a fancy term for spreading the cost of a purchase over the expected useful life. It allows you to get a much better view of a company
53 Flighty : It may seem obvious to you, but I would want more information. The real way you tell is a full-on case study of a forecast including way more variabl
54 XT6Wagon : Wrong, they DO want 737's in 2020. What they DON'T want is MD-80's in 2020. When you order 300 aircraft, you DON'T get them all in the same year. Rar
55 Post contains links and images SLCUT2777 : Much of this depends on if there are any outstanding liens against the aircraft. For the DL fleet of MD-88s, 63 are owned and 57 are leased according
56 Itsnotfinals : once again, Owned does not mean "paid off" it means a non-operating lease debt instrument is backing the payment on the aircraft. During BK, DL packa
57 MoMan : AA doesn't want to be receiving 737s in 2020 but you have a good point. For all we know, AA might never replace all the MD80s. It's a good likelihood
58 TrijetsRMissed : We have read a lot about AA's urgency in wanting to phase out the MD-80 fleet but we cannot say the same thing for DL, for the time being. It's only
59 XT6Wagon : Strange, for me its 737NG, A320, A319, RJ (on short hops), driving 1K miles in a day, 737classic, turbo prop, MD80 Never had a satisfactory flight on
60 Tdscanuck : Which part of a 737NG do you think is 1965 technology? And, for those parts that may be, why do you think it matters? Tom.
61 Post contains images Boeingmd82 : 1965 technology, that's hilarious. Wait, aluminum, isn't that 1825 technology?
62 Ckfred : When AA signed its long-term contract with Boeing, before the TWA purchase, the plan was to replace the 727-200s with the 737-800. The MD-80s were su
63 Post contains images MoMan : Fuselage, manufacturing techniques (aluminum skin, rivets), frame. The engines, wing, and avionics have been updated and the fuselage has been length
64 Tdscanuck : Fuselage: reengineered in the 1990's Manufacturing techniques: The basic skin+rivets concept is really from the 1930's, but the way it's built isn't.
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