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TAM To Begin GRU-FRA Eff. Nov 30 With A345  
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11429 posts, RR: 58
Posted (7 years 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8759 times:
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TAM today receive approval to fly daily to FRA as well as announced that the daily flights with their new A340-500 planes will begin November 30

JJ8070 GRU 2240 FRA 1330 (+1)
JJ8071 FRA 2230 GRU 0740 (+1)

The A340-500 will not present a First Class cabin (only 42C 225Y).

MAD will begin in December, also from São Paulo with daily M11.

The two new A332 planes should be used on MXP, which will begin overnight service both ways shortly.

Felipe


New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRJ_Delta From Chile, joined Oct 2000, 1944 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 8696 times:

The A345 will operate only on GRU-FRA route or could be used to others TAM medium haul routes during the day, specially to other points in South America?

Thanks,


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4502 posts, RR: 72
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 days ago) and read 8646 times:

Quoting RJ_Delta (Reply 1):
The A345 will operate only on GRU-FRA route or could be used to others TAM medium haul routes during the day, specially to other points in South America?

Seeing as how JJ always gets the most out of its widebody fleet, one can expect the aircraft not to sit on the ground in GRU for 15 hours too often. A regional rotation is more than likely in between the GRU FRA trips.


User currently onlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9769 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8614 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 2):
Seeing as how JJ always gets the most out of its widebody fleet, one can expect the aircraft not to sit on the ground in GRU for 15 hours too often. A regional rotation is more than likely in between the GRU FRA trips.

As much as I understand the reason for not letting the A345 just sit on the tarmac soaking up the sun, wouldn't it be overkill to use the A345 on these shorter sectors? The A345 is an ultra longrange aircraft, a nonstop flight between GRU and FRA already is far within the capabilities of the A345 as the A332 can fulfill this role already. Maybe JJ can use the A345 to MIA/JFK as well?

A388


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4502 posts, RR: 72
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 8481 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 3):
As much as I understand the reason for not letting the A345 just sit on the tarmac soaking up the sun, wouldn't it be overkill to use the A345 on these shorter sectors? The A345 is an ultra longrange aircraft, a nonstop flight between GRU and FRA already is far within the capabilities of the A345 as the A332 can fulfill this role already. Maybe JJ can use the A345 to MIA/JFK as well?

With only 2 aircraft in the fleet and the proposed GRU FRA schedule, there is no way that JJ can schedule another longhaul rotation with these aircraft. My guess is, as such, that, rathen than having the aircraft sit on the ground in GRU for 15 hours every day, the airline will pencil in a regional rotation at least on certain days of the week to increase utilization rates. As for the A345 being overkill for such routes, SQ schedules two daily A345 roundtrips on the 1h30 SIN CGK sector...


User currently offlineOceansWorld From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 8458 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
TAM today receive approval to fly daily to FRA as well as announced that the daily flights with their new A340-500 planes will begin November 30

Just to check, are these still the two AC aircraft ?


User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 8429 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 4):
rathen than having the aircraft sit on the ground in GRU for 15 hours every day, the airline will pencil in a regional rotation at least on certain days of the week to increase utilization rates. As for the A345 being overkill for such routes, SQ schedules two daily A345 roundtrips on the 1h30 SIN CGK sector...

A possible deployment of the A345 could be by combining JJ8000 and JJ8010 GRU-EZE by operating a new flight in between the two scheduled departure times (9h00 and 10h30). This will free up two A320 frames on those days.


User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 8412 times:

Quoting OceansWorld (Reply 5):
Just to check, are these still the two AC aircraft ?

Yes. Judging by the number of seats (42J and 225Y) they are the Air Canada birds. JJ will use the AC cabin, a clear sign that they do not intend to hold on to these birds for a long time. Most likely until the 77W arrives.

Edit: This thread seems to contradict all this. Where Are AC's 345s? (by ZBBYLW Aug 17 2007 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2007-08-18 12:31:43]

User currently offlineDellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 1088 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 8344 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
TAM today receive approval to fly daily to FRA as well as announced that the daily flights with their new A340-500 planes will begin November 30

JJ8070 GRU 2240 FRA 1330 (+1)
JJ8071 FRA 2230 GRU 0740 (+1)

Felipe, could you share the sorce with us??? I'd like to know if TAM got 4 extra frequencies to fly daily or 7 new frequencies adding to those 3 they already had.


User currently offlineA350XWB From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 44 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 8307 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):

Thank you for sharing this information. Great for JJ and LH.


So we'll see FRA-GRU three times daily between 10pm and 11pm:

RG 8741 22:05-07:00 B763
JJ 8070 22:30-07:40 A345
LH 0506 22:45-07:30 B744

[Edited 2007-08-18 13:40:33]

User currently offlineOceansWorld From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 8276 times:

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 7):
Yes. Judging by the number of seats (42J and 225Y) they are the Air Canada birds. JJ will use the AC cabin, a clear sign that they do not intend to hold on to these birds for a long time. Most likely until the 77W arrives.

Edit: This thread seems to contradict all this. Where Are AC's 345s? (by ZBBYLW Aug 17 2007 in Civil Aviation)

Yes, that's why I'm asking questions in both threads, and am looking forward for more detailed informations regarding JJ's source for these aircraft as well as what will happen on AC's side.


User currently offlineJog From Netherlands, joined Jul 2005, 273 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 8232 times:

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 8):

Felipe, could you share the sorce with us??? I'd like to know if TAM got 4 extra frequencies to fly daily or 7 new frequencies adding to those 3 they already had.

According to their press release they got four new frequencies, i.e they have 7 in total now.


User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 8210 times:

Quoting A350XWB (Reply 9):
RG 8741 22:05-07:00 B763
JJ 8070 22:30-07:40 A345
LH 0506 22:45-07:30 B744

Is the A345 really that slow?
I mean a full 30 minutes slower than the 744 on a 5300nm route?  Wow!
I can imagine if you loose an hour on every round trip it starts to add up...


User currently offlineSAOAP From Brazil, joined Mar 2005, 170 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 8183 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 2):

TAM usually has 2-3 widebodies (2x332 and 1xM11) sitting all day long in GRU. The execption might be the winter when we see a lot of charter flights within South America, especially between Brazil and Argentina.

Cheers!

Marcelo

PS: anyone know who granted TAM the extra four slots? It's my understanding they only had three. Was it ANAC?



"When it's dark enough, you can see the stars" - Charles A. Beard
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4502 posts, RR: 72
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 8140 times:

Quoting SAOAP (Reply 13):
TAM usually has 2-3 widebodies (2x332 and 1xM11) sitting all day long in GRU.

Of the 3 A332 frames on the ground in GRU during the day, JJ uses one for a GRU MAO and another one for a GRU SCL roundtrip. Since the daylight departures to MIA and JFK have been introduced the utilization of the A332 fleet has been considerable increased because of reduced ground time at GRU.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11429 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7089 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

As per HB-IWC comments, nowadays they keep 1 M11 from CDG and 1 A332 (depending on maintenance schedule could be CDG, JFK, LHR or MIA) at GRU.

With not only the 2 future A345 but also 3 more A332, TAM will keep (by the fact MXP would become a overnight flight) 5 frames at GRU.

I expect a daylight service to CDG in the near future, EZE could be back as an A332 route but we couldn't expect domestic services like SSA, REC or FOR to become A332 as JJ now will receive some A321 with more Y seats than the entire A332 can provide.

About sources, TAM issued yesterday a press release with the additional 4 frequencies as the bilateral has been revised to 21 frequencies (pax) plus 7 cargo against 22 all-in frequencies in the past. The timetable was issued by TAM also yesterday and will be advised to the market during the next week.

As we discussed in the past seems to be a huge increase on seats South America-Germany this year, and in fact at least in Brazil, fares are down this off-season.. it's easy to find out a US$ 899 R/T to Europe from Brazil as well as airlines are financing again in 5x installments without interest (for Brazilians).

Over 2006, LH increased their service to MUC, establish a new service from EZE to FRA, JJ will begin it's own service, RG resume GIG-FRA, as well as for the rest of Europe, additional seats to AMS (using the 77W), MAD (new JJ service, more IB and UX frequencies), LIS (more GIG/GRU service as well as BSB-LIS), MXP (the JJ service was established this year), CDG (two more GIG-CDG daily services as JJ one begin on january)....


Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineVega From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6949 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 15):
With not only the 2 future A345 but also 3 more A332, TAM will keep (by the fact MXP would become a overnight flight) 5 frames at GRU

Has TAM actually shown anywhere, within the past week, that this route will be flown with a 340-500 rather than the 332? I ask this ? because the 345s have been removed from TAMs Fleet configuration by several internet based sources and someone mentioned in another thread yesterday that the 345 transfer was canceled by AC last week - without any confirmation reference.


User currently offlineHaan From South Africa, joined Aug 2004, 289 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6933 times:

Any chanse TAM to consider GRU-JNB?

User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11429 posts, RR: 58
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 6541 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Vega (Reply 16):
Has TAM actually shown anywhere, within the past week, that this route will be flown with a 340-500 rather than the 332? I ask this ? because the 345s have been removed from TAMs Fleet configuration by several internet based sources and someone mentioned in another thread yesterday that the 345 transfer was canceled by AC last week - without any confirmation reference.

I always respect others sources ! The confirmation has been posted by TAM on it's internal network so it seems that the deal remain firm.

Quoting Haan (Reply 17):
Any chanse TAM to consider GRU-JNB?

Considering the 2010 World Cup, could be feasible. But AFAIK their plans for the future are some additional services to the US and a second flight to LHR. Now they decided to focus Europe because it's where there is no Daily Brazilian Flag service to some destinations like MAD.

They have more planes to be received, let's wait a little more.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineA350XWB From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 44 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6146 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 15):
About sources, TAM issued yesterday a press release with the additional 4 frequencies as the bilateral has been revised to 21 frequencies (pax) plus 7 cargo against 22 all-in frequencies in the past.

Very interesting, so there now seems to be room for LH to start FRA-GIG.


User currently offlineRobffm2 From Germany, joined Dec 2006, 1117 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6070 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 15):
About sources, TAM issued yesterday a press release with the additional 4 frequencies as the bilateral has been revised to 21 frequencies (pax) plus 7 cargo against 22 all-in frequencies in the past.

Sorry, but somehow I don't get the logic of the bilateral. Currently I count already 30 weekly flights between Germany and Brazil:

  • FRA-GRU LH502 744
  • FRA-GRU RG8741 763
  • FRA-GIG RG8779 763
  • MUC-GRU LH504 343
  • FRA-SSA DE3076 763 (twice weekly)


How can a bilateral with 21 frequencies provide room for JJ?
Finishing, let me say that I just would love to see JJ again in FRA!


User currently offlineJog From Netherlands, joined Jul 2005, 273 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (7 years 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6064 times:

Quoting Robffm2 (Reply 20):
How can a bilateral with 21 frequencies provide room for JJ?

It's 21 flights for Brazilian airlines plus 21 flights for German airlines - so in total 42 flights would be possible.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 22, posted (7 years 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6061 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 15):
About sources, TAM issued yesterday a press release with the additional 4 frequencies as the bilateral has been revised to 21 frequencies (pax) plus 7 cargo against 22 all-in frequencies in the past. The timetable was issued by TAM also yesterday and will be advised to the market during the next week.

Excellent news and I remember I have stated this here some time ago: there is room for more flights and more frequencies between Germany and Brazil.

We can see a huge expansion of capacity and service Germany-Brazil: this year alone LH will introduce the B747 dedicated FRA-GRU, while increasing MUC-GRU from the A343 to A346. TAM now will offer daily flights and RG keeps struggling with its FRA-GRU and FRA-GIG.

I have my doubts whether RG will manage to operate to FRA after TAM starts its operations.

Rgs,


User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (7 years 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6038 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 22):
I have my doubts whether RG will manage to operate to FRA after TAM starts its operations.

After cutting EZE and now possibly FRA I think we can say there's absolutely nothing left of the old VARIG. To me those two routes are a resemblance of "what once was". It's a good thing there are finally more seats at this market, now let's wait for prices to go down Big grin


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11429 posts, RR: 58
Reply 24, posted (7 years 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5914 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Robffm2 (Reply 20):
Sorry, but somehow I don't get the logic of the bilateral. Currently I count already 30 weekly flights between Germany and Brazil:

Rob, it's a bilateral, both countries keep 21 weekly flights (pax/cargo) + 7 dedicated to cargo, each.

Quoting A350XWB (Reply 19):
Very interesting, so there now seems to be room for LH to start FRA-GIG.

I don't think that LH will look for GIG during the next 12 months. First i believe they will try to consolidate EZE as a non-stop route. With more services from Brazil (RG and JJ) the market become more competitive.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 22):
We can see a huge expansion of capacity and service Germany-Brazil: this year alone LH will introduce the B747 dedicated FRA-GRU, while increasing MUC-GRU from the A343 to A346. TAM now will offer daily flights and RG keeps struggling with its FRA-GRU and FRA-GIG.

The question is that... is there demand for this ? The market is now on a downturn because of the accident and the recurrent problems in Brazilian ATC.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
25 PHKLM : For the ones that are interested, if you want to be on the inaugural flight of the 77W: KL791 AMS - GRU on Thursday 27 March 2008 will be the first t
26 Thering : So looks like JJ is is the process of finishing it's FirstClass. That's bad...... They will need to improve Business.... So than they will have 3 dif
27 LipeGIG : One new A332 should be used in order to allow all A332 fleet to be updated and to become a single configuration. I know that F class will be reduced f
28 Hardiwv : GRU will be the launching destination of KL B77W and the first flight will take off from AMS to GRU on 09 March 2007. KL will deploy the B77W 5 x wee
29 PHKLM : You are right Hardiwv, my mistake.
30 Thering : Interesting... Probably we will se a lie-flat on business and a Suite on First.. That's my thought...
31 Post contains images RootsAir : Does anyone know why TAM will fly the A345. Isn't GRU-FRA too much of a "short" route for this a/c ? Couldn't an A343 or a 772 do the same job ? regar
32 PHKLM : The 772 is impossible to get by on a short-term lease basis. I can't think of a single carrier that is phasing out 772's right now. TAM has the 77W o
33 LipeGIG : Availability of planes! They need planes on the short term and the 2 A345 deal appears as a good solution which provides TAM with the capability to o
34 Thering : Yes but they didn't got the 345 When are they gettint rid of the M11s?? Would be like, one 77W arrives, one M11 goes??
35 LipeGIG : From June to August 2008, at the same time they will be receiving their first 4 77W's. TAM need to deliver the planes in order they can be converted
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