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Incredibly Interesting Article On The 757  
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4499 posts, RR: 7
Posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 14319 times:

I was doing a google search on the 757 and came across this fantastic feature article by the Seattle Times on the conception, design and launch of the 757. The article was written in 1983.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/business/757/

45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAtlantaflyboy From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 14260 times:

Could we dare call the 757 the "787 of it's time"? Great read, really enjoyed that bit of aviation history!!!!!

User currently offlineBaron95 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1335 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 13850 times:

From the article...

[In fact, of all the jetliners ever made in Europe or the United States, only two, the Boeing 707 and 727, are said certainly to have made a profit. The DC-9 and 747 may yet become profitable. The DC-8, the DC-10, the L-1011, even the 737...all these airplanes, and more, have lost money for their manufacturers. ]

I find that interesting that even in 1983 they claim the DC-9, DC-8 and 737 were money losers. Could that be? I find it hard to believe that after 15-20 years in the market those planes had not reached break even.

Any thoughts?

P.S. Great Article. Thanks for posting.



Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
User currently offlineAviationNut From Australia, joined Dec 2006, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 13556 times:

Quoting N62NA (Thread starter):
I was doing a google search on the 757 and came across this fantastic feature article by the Seattle Times on the conception, design and launch of the 757. The article was written in 1983.

I have only skipped over the top of this very involved article and it looks a great read. I will certainly take some time to read it properly, and once again thanks for alerting us to it.

Kind Regards

AviationNut  Big grin



Regrets: I only flew Concorde Trans Atlantic twice
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2445 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 13482 times:

Quoting AviationNut (Reply 3):
I have only skipped over the top of this very involved article and it looks a great read.

It is a great read. Thanks for posting this gem!



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineMrComet From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 556 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 12730 times:

It is funny that many of the same issues of the 787 were alive and well then -- new technology, fuel eficiency driving the design, the demand to scale up airplanes, dirty tricks by rivals, etc.

I alwasy though the 757 is the nicest plane to fly on if you are going economy. It's roomy, fast and solid. It is hugely better than the A320 or 737NG series to fly on. I wish there were more of them out there.



The dude abides
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 11615 times:

Quoting MrComet (Reply 5):
It's roomy, fast and solid. It is hugely better than the A320 or 737NG series to fly on.

Why roomier? The 737NG and 757 have the same cabin dimensions.

Tom.


User currently offlineIAD787 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 502 posts, RR: 44
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 10862 times:

Also, Peter Rinearson won a Pulitzer Prize for this series. It pretty much set the benchmark for aviation reporting.


Former FlightBlogger turned Wall Street Journal Aerospace Beat Reporter
User currently offlineSkibum9 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 10771 times:

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 6):
Why roomier? The 737NG and 757 have the same cabin dimensions.

The 757 and 737 have the same cabin dimensions, however the overhead bins are 3 inches higher in the 757, giving one the perception that it is roomier.



Tailwinds!!!
User currently offlineEBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 10612 times:

Quoting N62NA (Thread starter):
The DC-9 and 747 may yet become profitable. The DC-8, the DC-10, the L-1011, even the 737...all these airplanes, and more, have lost money for their manufacturers. ]

If memory serves, the 747 went into service in the early 70's, so it's hard for me to imagine that after ten years of production the airplane still wasn't making a profit for Boeing. I can't see maintaining a production run for that long if the company is loosing money.



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1607 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 10564 times:

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 6):
Why roomier? The 737NG and 757 have the same cabin dimensions.

Plus, it's longer. I always liked that model of the 757 that had the small rear cabin. It makes you feel that you are on a large plane. I get so tired of those little 737s/320s -- I sometimes think they are just greyhound buses, with wings.


User currently offlineTexL1649 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 298 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 10294 times:

Quoting IAD787 (Reply 7):

It probably set the benchmark for aviation reporting, I agree. I don't know that the benchmark has been reached since.


User currently offlineTheredbaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2222 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 10266 times:

Quoting MrComet (Reply 5):
It is hugely better than the A320 or 737NG series to fly on. I wish there were more of them out there.

my thoughts exactly.....very good article btw..



The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13154 posts, RR: 100
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 10233 times:
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What I like from this article is the perspective that only the 707 and 727 had been the only profitable jets of the time. When this article was written, the 737 had not yet broken even.  wideeyed 

Its why each and every airframe (and engine) launch must be taken very seriously.

E.g., it wasn't until the late 1990's that the JT9D broke even.  wideeyed  Partly due to the huge launch expenses and EIS "teething" issues (recall, Pratt was basically bankrupt due to the engine). Long afterwards, engineers there knew the JT8D paid for salaries (not the PW2000 or PW4000, yet).

The article also talks about fuel going from 9 cents per gallon to 35 cents. This is why Pratt killed the JT10D.  cry  They mistakenly thought "point-to-point" was dead with the new permanent high energy costs. Oops!

The politics of the wing manufacturing was very interesting. Thanks for the link.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 10088 times:

This is more like a history book than a article. But these passages caught my eye:

Quote:
But the world airline industry is volatile, and unexpected developments can destroy the best-laid plans. An airplane concept that is promising one year may be pointless the next, ruined by the changing needs of the industry. There's a saying in the airplane-manufacturing industry: "Long-range forecasting is the day after tomorrow."

Unless a sufficient number of airplanes is sold in the first few years of a program, interest costs and other expenses make it almost impossible for the program ever to make money — no matter how many planes are sold in the long run.


User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6816 posts, RR: 77
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 9898 times:

Quoting MrComet (Reply 5):
It's roomy, fast and solid. It is hugely better than the A320 or 737NG series to fly on. I wish there were more of them out there.

The B757 and the B737 share the same cabin dimension - and the A320 is even wider. It mostly depends on the operator whether a flight is comfortable.


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7569 posts, RR: 17
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 9665 times:

Am I missing something? Are we being serious? Is it 1 April or something?

Could someone correct me where I am wrong. As I see it the article says that Boeing, EA and BA had sat down at technical and commercial negotiations and agreed that Boeing would build a 160 passenger airline for which EA and BA would be the launch customers. Then the CEOs of Boeing and EA have a two and a half mile, 4 minute car journey in Miami. During that journey they tare up the original plans and agree that instead Boeing will build a 175 passenger aircraft. And in those two and a half miles and four minutes it is all signed, sealed and settled.

Little old BA who have had no input into these sudden, quick and pretty significant changes has one reaction. No, perhaps two. It says 'Great' and places its order.

Now where did I go wrong. Yes its a great yarn. But is it anything other than a piece of very imaginative newspaper reporting?


User currently offlineAirEMS From United States of America, joined May 2004, 684 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 9404 times:

Was it just me or were there tons of typos in this article?

-Carl



If Your Dying Were Flying
User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 9211 times:

Quoting AirEMS (Reply 17):
Was it just me or were there tons of typos in this article?

I noticed that too. It looks like it was a hard copy that was scanned, but the original or OCR software wasn't very good and they didn't do a very good job of cleaning up the mistakes.


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13154 posts, RR: 100
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 9009 times:
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Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 14):
Unless a sufficient number of airplanes is sold in the first few years of a program, interest costs and other expenses make it almost impossible for the program ever to make money — no matter how many planes are sold in the long run.

 Sad Sad but true. Time value of money is critical. Once you start spending hundreds of millions, the interest piles up fast. Unless that debt can be paid off quickly, it becomes a beast that is tough to feed.

Then there is the flip side, once the engineering is paid off, the profit margins go up quickly. Not to mention, often most of the profit is the support contract/parts.

Then there is the third bit, the more of an airframe/engine that sells, the more airframes to amortize improvements. Examples, JT8D-217 to -219 and the tail cone changes on the MD-82 to 83. More on topic, the winglets for the 757.  spin 

Volume is critical. Early volume is sweet.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineGrantcv From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 430 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 8973 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 16):
Could someone correct me where I am wrong. As I see it the article says that Boeing, EA and BA had sat down at technical and commercial negotiations and agreed that Boeing would build a 160 passenger airline for which EA and BA would be the launch customers. Then the CEOs of Boeing and EA have a two and a half mile, 4 minute car journey in Miami. During that journey they tare up the original plans and agree that instead Boeing will build a 175 passenger aircraft. And in those two and a half miles and four minutes it is all signed, sealed and settled.

I don't know how much of those details are true, but I remember at the time a lot of criticism that Boeing had buckled to Eastern pressure and the result was a plane that was too big for the larger market. What's more - the ability to shrink to fit wasn't there. That created the opening in the 150 seat market that Boeing had to fill with the 737-300 (which initially was to be a rather awkward and sub-optimal stretch with odd counter-weights at the end of the wings) and created the opening for the A320. If the 757 had initially been created for the smaller market, it might have become the success the 737 has become, would still be in production today, and could have blunted Airbus' success with the A320.


User currently offlineMoek2000 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 8605 times:

Great article! I personally think the 757 is one of the best aircrafts ever produced (in terms of efficiency, power, looks, etc.) and it's really sad that these birds are no longer produced.

User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 8505 times:

Why is the 757 cockpit at a different height to the 737 cockpit?

User currently offlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4636 posts, RR: 23
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 8464 times:

Quoting EI321 (Reply 22):
Why is the 757 cockpit at a different height to the 737 cockpit?

The 757 and 767 have the same cockpit. It's higher because the 757 is a lot higher off the ground  Smile

Great article - thoroughly enjoyed the read! Be nice if someone did something similar for the 787 once it's going into service...



I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
User currently offlineRj111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 8377 times:

Quoting EI321 (Reply 22):
Why is the 757 cockpit at a different height to the 737 cockpit?

To reinforce the 757-767 common type rating the 757 has the same window design as the 767.

Also the 757 sits a lot higher on the ground vs the 737 to avoid tail strike.


25 Nwafflyer : Completely agree about the spelling erros - that makes no sense for a reasonably large newspaper article. Now, the 757 is a great plane, and has been
26 Beeski : Great Article, thanks for the link.
27 Post contains images Gunsontheroof : It was probably transcribed (hastily by someone low on the totem pole I'd imagine) from an original, error-free hard copy relatively recently since t
28 Post contains images Atmx2000 : " target=_blank>http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/new.../757/ I've posted this article before.... Yup, evidence that Boeing was willing to outsource lo
29 Cjbmibe : I read an interesting article in a local paper (The Belfast Telegraph) in Northern Ireland a while ago. It talked about the Boeing 757 and BAe 146. Bo
30 ContnlEliteCMH : How about this one: Airbus Industrie, a consortium of plane-makers backed by European governments, already has announced its 150-seater, called the A-
31 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : ....great article...thanks for the link.. ...while at one time I wasn't the biggest fan of the B757, it is probably one of my all-time favourite birds
32 Cjbmibe : (Request Deletion - Accidental Double Post)[Edited 2007-08-20 00:59:13]
33 Tdscanuck : As much as that issue exists (it's somewhat in dispute), it's common to all airliners. As far as I know, the theory is that it's oil and other ingest
34 Centrair : Frank Borman: Known to almost everyone at the time from farmers to leaders of foreign countries. Hard Nosed business man and engineer. He always went
35 Brettbrett21 : "In the fall of 1981, an anesthetized 4-pound chicken was loaded in a pneumatic gun and fired at 360 knots head-on into a stationary 757 cab. The expe
36 Ebs757 : I sure hope there aren't any Peta members reading! but yeah if thats true it sounds pretty cruel
37 FlyLKU : Perhaps, but I believe the production run ended at just north of 1000 airframes and I doubt a 757 sale ever cannibalized a 737 sale. Smart strategist
38 Molykote : "In 1978 Tex Boullioun, left, president of the Boeing Commercial Airplane Co." What a badass name! I had exactly the same thoughts as I read these art
39 Post contains images Boo25 : Excellent plane! I have been lucky enough to fly as crew on the 757 for the best part of 21 years! Outstanding design and power - nothing like the sou
40 A346Dude : Awesome article, thanks for the link. Meticulously researched and well told, unlike most of the drivel we get today.
41 Post contains links MrComet : In the "where are they now" category, sadly, Tex passed away last year. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...es/2003280667_boulliounobit29.html
42 TWAtwaTWA : What a fantastic series of articles! Really gives an appreciation of the complexity involved in a new airplane project. International politics, busine
43 Tdscanuck : Why would you anesthetize a dead chicken? They don't do this anymore...they use a dead bird. Tom.
44 HAWK21M : Great Article.Thanks. Plan to share this with the gang at work. regds MEL
45 MrComet : From the obituary linked to above, this interesting tidbit: "In December 1979, Mr. Boullioun learned that Trans World Airlines was set to choose the A
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