SFOQQAA From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 96 posts, RR: 1 Posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3487 times:
I am continually amazed at the air traffic control system into LGA and how it works. Can someone explain to me why some airlines seem to manage to get their flights out on time (or close to it) and others are forced into lengthy delays. Example: On days were LGA has 60 minute or longer ATC delays, Delta manages much shorter ground delays on their ATL - LGA flights than AA or FL. Why is that? The same can be said for United on their flights from ORD to LGA. They seem to get shorter delays than AA. Does it have anything to do with the size of their operation or particular aircraft types. Just curious.
OPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3403 times:
Long ago, when SWA first started serving SFO with our handful of flights from SAN, LAS, and PHX, we ran into the inevitable situation where SFO would drop their ceilings and/or visibilities such that their acceptance rate would get cut in half, and large delays would ensue. Some of our flights at SAN, LAS, and PHX destined for SFO would get "wheels-up" times 60-120 minutes in the future, and crews would complain that United was launching all their flights to SFO pretty much on time. The reason for this was that they had a much larger volume of flights into SFO than we did, especially when the UAX commuters were included. All they had to do was start cancelling some of their flights, and then trade the now freed-up slots with themselves via an ATCSCC substitution program, and the 60-120 minute delays that they too would have received were then whittled down to minmal levels, or no delays at all.
I suspect that Delta has the same ability at LGA given the size of their operation there, as well as Comair's, etc. when compared with FL's.
Doug_Or From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3167 posts, RR: 4 Reply 2, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3363 times:
Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 1): I suspect that Delta has the same ability at LGA given the size of their operation there, as well as Comair's, etc. when compared with FL's.
Yep. At US, the shuttles, for instance will ususaly launch on time or within a few minutes, while the D-8s will sit on a 4 hour ground stop in SYR. The delay may be 2 hours but they'll sacrafice the 37 seater for the plane full of big wigs and politicos.
DLOnur From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 290 posts, RR: 2 Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3342 times:
Big planes will always get the better slots at the respective major hubs.
When I was at OO in ACV and we had flow into SFO, we'd sit for hours while the T7's from NRT would get in on time and then off on time to IAD. Same situation in JFK/LGA with DL, ATL with DL, UA in IAD/ORD/SFO, etc.....the major carrier at the hub stations will always be able to better mitigate long flow delays due to their ability to cancel the puddle jumpers and get the big metal off without too much delay.
Basically queue management--how to mitigate the intesity of the queue while effecting the least amount of people.
IAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4738 posts, RR: 25 Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3286 times:
The title of the thread is very misleading....ATC doesn't give preferential treatment to any flights other than emergencies or lifeguard flights for obvious reasons, it is the operators and ATCSCC who work the traffic management initiatives.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
AA787823 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3233 times:
Well not so long a go I was working a flight, and we had a two-hour ATC delay. An off duty airtraffic cotroller, who was flying out on that airplane, made a call and got us an immediate wheels up.
N757ST From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 288 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3217 times:
Quoting DLOnur (Reply 3): Big planes will always get the better slots at the respective major hubs.
Simply not true. Size of the plane is not a factor, however what is a factor is the place it was coming from. Trans oceanic flights will not be issued EDCT times, and domestic flights will be slotted around them. Sometimes you might see a larger airline "steal" a slot from its regional feed to accomidate a greater number of passengers. As for the original question... there is no favoritism for different airlines. These controllers simply don't have enough time nor enough pavement, especially at LGA, to be playing favorites. Now what you might have seen was ATL on Delta being let go and AA possibly going to DFW or so where they are on different routes. Due to congestion or weather, some routes might be shut down or might be restricted with an enroute seperation. This is one of the reasons runway 13 is preferred for takeoff. Due to the large amounts of concrete with all the taxiways around the five towers area, ATC can more effectively stack airplanes so that they can keep a constant flow of traffic departing. This is also why PHL prefers a 27L over 9R... because of additional access to the runway. Additionally, controllers are human. Two weeks ago they had a controller change they resulted in a major mistake by the contoller. There loss was my gain, they put a delta and my aircraft up to the runway ahead of the pack. While I only waited an hour and delta ahead waited 1.2 hrs, the previous flight to ATL was still in line and had been waiting for 3 hours. So in summary.... no they don't play favorites... but they do make some mistakes.
Swiftski From Australia, joined Dec 2006, 2701 posts, RR: 2 Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3164 times:
Quoting AA787823 (Reply 5): Well not so long a go I was working a flight, and we had a two-hour ATC delay. An off duty airtraffic cotroller, who was flying out on that airplane, made a call and got us an immediate wheels up.
Flighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 7506 posts, RR: 2 Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3098 times:
Quoting Swiftski (Reply 7):
I don't beleive that I'm afraid.
Maybe a little hard to believe. But imagine you are a dispatcher. Maybe dispatch is not giving the "right" attention to the flights you are on in your opinion. Why couldn't you call them up and melt your own delay down to nothing (such as by activating a spare aircraft). Of course dispatch is in control, but maybe they can be persuaded to change their plans just a little bit to help out a friend.
There may be some room for negotiation with ATC or dispatch, if you know people on the inside and call them up. It's not totally unprofessional either, if your suggestion has some validity and you are a member of the team.
Lincoln From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3887 posts, RR: 8 Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3083 times:
Quoting AA787823 (Reply 5): Well not so long a go I was working a flight, and we had a two-hour ATC delay. An off duty airtraffic cotroller, who was flying out on that airplane, made a call and got us an immediate wheels up.
IAHFlyr can set me straight, but I was under the impression that doing just about anything that could have the appearence of requesting preferential treatment as a controller/government employee could cause an, ahem, "discussion", with management or significantly worse.
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OPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3068 times:
Quoting Flighty (Reply 9): Maybe a little hard to believe. But imagine you are a dispatcher. Maybe dispatch is not giving the "right" attention to the flights you are on in your opinion. Why couldn't you call them up and melt your own delay down to nothing (such as by activating a spare aircraft). Of course dispatch is in control, but maybe they can be persuaded to change their plans just a little bit to help out a friend.
There may be some room for negotiation with ATC or dispatch, if you know people on the inside and call them up. It's not totally unprofessional either, if your suggestion has some validity and you are a member of the team.
1. Activating a "spare" aircraft (if there is even one available) isn't the problem--you could have 10 spare aircraft, but if reduced airspace capacity is the issue, extra aircraft do not automatically translate into extra airspace.
2. As far as dispatch not giving the "right" attention to an aircraft, and calling in for special consideration, that's not an answer either. Nobody likes being delayed, and all 10 crews of aircraft stuck on an airport calling for special consideration is going to get them out any earlier.
3. Sometimes, we can get relief on a specific flight or two due to operational considerations, but that's not always a sure thing. I had a PHL departure a few weeks ago that was way behind schedule, and I had only a short time to get him airborne before the crew timed-out and turned into pumpkins. PHL was able to get him airborne within 30 minutes, and not the 90 minute departure delays they were experiencing at the time.
Tercer From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 142 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3030 times:
Quoting SFOQQAA (Thread starter): I am continually amazed at the air traffic control system into LGA and how it works
Who isn't, +180 minutes arrival delays on top of gridlock and +300 min departure delays at least a few times a week for the summer SWAP season. The big question is how can the inbound flights penetrate weather that ATC says is impenetrable to outbound traffic???
Quoting AA787823 (Reply 5): Well not so long a go I was working a flight, and we had a two-hour ATC delay. An off duty airtraffic cotroller, who was flying out on that airplane, made a call and got us an immediate wheels up.
I am not buying this one either, all the Command Center lines are recorded so if anything he was just getting the latest info.... Maybe it was either and airline sub or adaptive compression that helped you out..
Quoting Flighty (Reply 9): Maybe a little hard to believe. But imagine you are a dispatcher. Maybe dispatch is not giving the "right" attention to the flights you are on in your opinion. Why couldn't you call them up and melt your own delay down to nothing (such as by activating a spare aircraft). Of course dispatch is in control, but maybe they can be persuaded to change their plans just a little bit to help out a friend.
This most likely will not happen either, you can call your buddy in dispatch but they are, for the most part, going to give you the latest info. No one wants to risk their job playing favorites.
Quoting N757ST (Reply 6): Sometimes you might see a larger airline "steal" a slot from its regional feed to accomidate a greater number of passengers
Unless the larger airlines own the slots there can be no stealing, the program just doesn't work this way.
Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 11): 1. Activating a "spare" aircraft (if there is even one available) isn't the problem--you could have 10 spare aircraft, but if reduced airspace capacity is the issue, extra aircraft do not automatically translate into extra airspace.
Not to mention that if you do activate a spare, are able to crew it and can fill it with passenger you then are considered a pop up in the GDP when you file your new flight number and end up getting the highest delay.
It's politically sensitive, but it's going to happen.
Ordpark From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 543 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3002 times:
As a seasoned veteran of UA....I don't see us getting any preferential treatment at LGA or anywhere else....often wondered why AA's planes get in the air before ours......it's all a matter of perception, I guess....
RL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4537 posts, RR: 13 Reply 14, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2986 times:
The other week i flew into LGA, and we landed early, but the take off queue was out of this world, my friend checked and it was 60-90 min out to off times. Almost EVERY DL connection flight was canceled that evening, so like someone stated above, they probably canceled the RJ flights to get better times for the shuttles and mainline, thus so its not preferential treatment, but rather Delta, minimizing passenger inconvenience as much as possible.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
RJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2979 times:
Quoting Tercer (Reply 12): Who isn't, +180 minutes arrival delays on top of gridlock and +300 min departure delays at least a few times a week for the summer SWAP season. The big question is how can the inbound flights penetrate weather that ATC says is impenetrable to outbound traffic???
Is it this bad regularly? The few times I've flown the Delta Shuttle this summer, we've had ground holds but nothing more than 30 minutes...Maybe there is preferential treatment!
B777ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 548 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2979 times:
Quoting Flighty (Reply 9): There may be some room for negotiation with ATC or dispatch, if you know people on the inside and call them up. It's not totally unprofessional either, if your suggestion has some validity and you are a member of the team.
Your damn right. Its called professional courtesy. Hell, I have heard a NY JFK ground controller tell the crew of an aircraft to say hello to a colleague who was flying out on that plane and telling them over the freq that they would try to get them out quickest. You better believe this stuff happens. Not only in aviation but in law enforcement as well. The grunts who do all the work, i.e., non-managers show each other this courtesy whenever we can and for the most part, managers know better than to question it. And before anyone says, "I don't believe it"...I have done it myself and have had others do it for me many times.
Quoting Tercer (Reply 12): This most likely will not happen either, you can call your buddy in dispatch but they are, for the most part, going to give you the latest info. No one wants to risk their job playing favorites.
SHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3661 posts, RR: 18 Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2960 times:
Quoting Tercer (Reply 12): Unless the larger airlines own the slots there can be no stealing, the program just doesn't work this way.
Don't most of the mass-network carriers own their feeder airlines' wheels-ups?
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Tercer From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 142 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2942 times:
Quoting RJpieces (Reply 15): Is it this bad regularly? The few times I've flown the Delta Shuttle this summer, we've had ground holds but nothing more than 30 minutes...Maybe there is preferential treatment!
Mid-late afternoon and into the evening is when things tend to get bad at all the NY Metros during the summer months. Unless you have a solid frontal boundary driving the weather it is the air-mass/pop up/"it came out of nowhere" (whichever you call it) thunderstorms that cause the most problems (right around peak heating for the day).
It's politically sensitive, but it's going to happen.
Flighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 7506 posts, RR: 2 Reply 21, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2906 times:
Quoting Swiftski (Reply 19): It is very unprofessional. Imagine being on a flight (further) delayed by ATC giving priority to a friend, then you missing your connection.
Yeah if it is a simple me-first request, that's no good.
If it is a request "with a good reason" -- and only ATCers or dispatch really know what those reasons are -- then I bet a little "talk" about the situation can have results sometimes. Like "oh yeah, the system will run better with your flight in front" for some crazy reason. It's gotta happen sometimes.
Tercer From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 142 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2895 times:
Quoting B777ER (Reply 16): Spoken from someone on the outside looking in.
Wrong!
Quoting B777ER (Reply 16): Your damn right. Its called professional courtesy. . You better believe this stuff happens. Not only in aviation but in law enforcement as well.
Quoting B777ER (Reply 16): Hell, I have heard a NY JFK ground controller tell the crew of an aircraft to say hello to a colleague who was flying out on that plane and telling them over the freq that they would try to get them out quickest.
And that flight still sat in the dept queue, This too is professional courtesy .,.. "Yeah we will get you out quick" means nothing when you number 33 for the runway and ATC is running 20 Miles in trail. I am not saying it doesn't happen but in the NY area were all the users are watching very closely at what is going on to make sure things are being done equitably coupled with the fact that it is NY Tracon taking the hand off from JFK Tower ... Lets just say the dynamics of how business is done when things are bad makes make it difficult to get away with playing favorites.
It's politically sensitive, but it's going to happen.
VHNSJ From Australia, joined Jun 2007, 21 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2696 times:
whats the point in having all the small commuter flights if they just get cancelled every day,
how abouts replacing all the smaller aircraft flying in with fewer larger aircraft, less delays, happier passengers,
OPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2640 times:
Quoting VHNSJ (Reply 23): whats the point in having all the small commuter flights if they just get cancelled every day,
how abouts replacing all the smaller aircraft flying in with fewer larger aircraft, less delays, happier passengers,
I think the point here is that they don't get cancelled every day, just on really bad weather days, when they're considered "expendable" as far as the slots are concerned. Better to utilize the slot for a 150-seater than a 30-seater, since you'll inconvenience fewer people overall.
25 Corey07850: Believe it... It happens regularly, some ways more ethical than others... For instance our company subscribes to the NBAA GA Desk at the ATSCC. If on
26 IAHFLYR: Believe it, it happens. I personally know of a situation where a controller off duty on a trip called back to the local facility where the delays wer
27 Qqflyboy: It absolutely happens. Not often, likely, but it does, and I have first hand experience. I am a Purser or AA. A couple of years ago I was working a f
28 PHLapproach: I can only reiterate what some of the guys have already said. I can not count how many times I have told friends at Philly when I'm flying out and the
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