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Curitiba (CWB) Loses Nonstop Service To EZE  
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4020 posts, RR: 13
Posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3446 times:

TAM has not flown a steady service in this market since last April and the last of the few weekly services will be in November 2007. CWB had international service to several destinations in the past, but they seem to be drying up. The only international service left is daily Gol to ASU (which continues to EZE).

I find surprising that the service to EZE did not work out. Curitiba has a thriving economy with investment from many large foreign companies. Maybe it is a consequence of the weakening business ties between Brazil and Argentina. Not a good sign for Brazil to EZE service from airports other than POA/FLN/GRU/GIG.


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28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3383 times:

Which are the major international destinations for the Paranaenses?
EZE, VVI, ASU, SCL, MVD, MIA, MCO, LIS, MAD?



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4516 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 6 days ago) and read 3321 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Thread starter):
The only international service left is daily Gol to ASU (which continues to EZE).

Beside G3 flying CWB-ASU-EZE, I supposed the easiest choice to get EZE is layover in GRU or POA on JJ, G3 or RG.
It looks so complicated a CWB-GIG-EZE.
I have note that AR serves EZE-FLN but it seems there is not operating any codeshare partner for the leg FLN-CWB.
Regards.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11440 posts, RR: 58
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3255 times:
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Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 1):
Which are the major international destinations for the Paranaenses?
EZE, VVI, ASU, SCL, MVD, MIA, MCO, LIS, MAD?

Europe and US. Biggest investors in Parana (state) are Renault, Electrolux, Volvo, Bosch, Furukawa, Petrobras, Nabisco and Exxon.

Quoting Incitatus (Thread starter):
TAM has not flown a steady service in this market since last April and the last of the few weekly services will be in November 2007. CWB had international service to several destinations in the past, but they seem to be drying up. The only international service left is daily Gol to ASU (which continues to EZE).

PZ moved their flight from CWB to GIG last year, TAM tried to handle an A32A (with Business Class) but results were terrible and they decide to run only a full Y A320. Results are not that good and they again decided to axe CWB-EZE.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 2):
Beside G3 flying CWB-ASU-EZE, I supposed the easiest choice to get EZE is layover in GRU or POA on JJ, G3 or RG.

POA seems to be the best option.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 2):
It looks so complicated a CWB-GIG-EZE.

RG use to fly EZE-POA-CWB-GIG but because of lack of planes and the fact that ANAC prohibited them to wet lease G3 planes, they axe the route to provide the required planes for BOG and CCS.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineCV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3215 times:

Hi!

That's quite sad! I was in CWB in June 2004 and I remember that there were some international flights from that nice looking airport. I personally flew to ASU ( via Foz do Iguaçu ) in a TAM Mercosur Fokker F100....what a great flight with a great crew and a lovely airplane. I still remember that our flight from CWB to Foz do Iguaçu was quite empty but from Foz do Iguaçu to ASU it became quite crowded!!! I also remember that UAir from Uruguay flew from CWB to Montevideu ( I presume ). I have plans to return to ASU in 2 years and I would love to fly out of CWB to ASU...but if there are no flights I might take a brand new route that TP is planing to start from LIS to EZE via Rio or S. Paulo and from there I'll take a direct flight to ASU.
Regards


User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3185 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 3):
Europe and US. Biggest investors in Parana (state) are Renault, Electrolux, Volvo, Bosch, Furukawa, Petrobras, Nabisco and Exxon.

Which means that flights from CWB to LIS and MIA (or PTY  eyepopping  ) will have better performance than CWB-EZE ??



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11440 posts, RR: 58
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3140 times:
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Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 5):
Which means that flights from CWB to LIS and MIA (or PTY ) will have better performance than CWB-EZE ??

Probably, but CWB need some connections to fill a plane. A CWB-LIS flight could be interesting but i believe the runway need improvements as well as the airport itself needs at least ILS Cat II. To run a flight to LIS, CWB need at least to take care of POA, IGU, FLN, LDB and other markets but the problem is.. there are limited flights to these locations, Brazil is so concentrated that even a city in the south keep very few flights to others in the same region.

But CWB has capability to run flight to EZE .... IF .... connections can be increased at the airport. Otherwise people looking for morning flights need to keep connecting at São Paulo and afternoon at Porto Alegre, and no one will try to connect thru CWB. That's the price of the excessive concentration.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4020 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3079 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 6):
Otherwise people looking for morning flights need to keep connecting at São Paulo and afternoon at Porto Alegre, and no one will try to connect thru CWB. That's the price of the excessive concentration.

CWB-EZE is just too small a market and CWB has no particular advantage to be a connecting point. POA on the other hand does. Airlines try many things to make flights work and TAM could have tried to bank together a bunch of connections to fill up the flight. But would those actions be profitable? Probably not. And that would still leave the market uncovered for most of the day. Rather than trying schedules that had even less chance of being profitable, TAM did what any sane business would do: cut its losses.



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User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4516 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3070 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 6):
connections can be increased at the airport. Otherwise people looking for morning flights need to keep connecting at São Paulo

The outgoing traffic from CWB to USA and Europe seems good attended by JJ which is currently offering code share operations with AA and AF respectively to feed their planes departing from GRU. Beside them, other airlines offer service to Europe and USA through GRU, JJ included...
Related to the market to Central America and the Caribbean TA has understanding with JJ which offers code share operations to GRU from some cities in Brazil: GIG, SSA, RCE. No idea if CWB is included. TA operates GRU-LIM- plus other destinations.
CM needs a partner in Brazil in order to transfer passengers to their planes dispatching them from both GIG and GRU. What about RG as a possible candidate? As pointed out before, G3 is not a possibility.
Regards.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11440 posts, RR: 58
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3062 times:
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Quoting Incitatus (Reply 7):
CWB-EZE is just too small a market and CWB has no particular advantage to be a connecting point.

To places like Foz do Iguaçu, Maringá, Londrina, Cascavel ?

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 8):
The outgoing traffic from CWB to USA and Europe seems good attended by JJ which is currently offering code share operations with AA and AF respectively to feed their planes departing from GRU. Beside them, other airlines offer service to Europe and USA through GRU, JJ included...

Not only JJ but AF, IB, TP and other foreign airlines do well at CWB market.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 8):
Related to the market to Central America and the Caribbean TA has understanding with JJ which offers code share operations to GRU from some cities in Brazil: GIG, SSA, RCE. No idea if CWB is included. TA operates GRU-LIM- plus other destinations.

TA partnership with JJ will be terminated very shortly because of JJ and LA partnership.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 8):
CM needs a partner in Brazil in order to transfer passengers to their planes dispatching them from both GIG and GRU. What about RG as a possible candidate? As pointed out before, G3 is not a possibility.

CM has a partnership in Brazil, it's G3. They have an agreement for BSB-MAO-PTY passengers as well as G3 keep it's code on one of the GRU-PTY flights.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4020 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3030 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 9):
To places like Foz do Iguaçu, Maringá, Londrina, Cascavel ?

To go from Foz do Iguacu to Buenos Aires is easy: cross the border and go to IGR (Cataratas airport, Argentina). On weekdays there are 7-8 flights to AEP, which is a lot more convenient than EZE. No CWB service will ever capture a significant amount of the traffic between the Iguacu area and Buenos Aires.

From Maringa' one can take a morning nonstop flight to GRU and connect there. From Londrina one can either drive to MGF or make two stops (CWB,GRU) or make one with a transfer CGH-GRU. These are small markets, so the number of passengers from there that would take a CWB-EZE service should be tiny, in low single digits.

CWB as a connecting point to sustain this service would never work. Buenos Aires is a much larger market. If Argentina had a strong carrier with a lot of service to the US and Europe, then those markets could attract enough CWB passengers willing to detour south, which on top of the local market could make the flight feasible. Problem is, there is no strong carrier in Argentina currently.



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User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11440 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3021 times:
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Quoting Incitatus (Reply 10):
To go from Foz do Iguacu to Buenos Aires is easy: cross the border and go to IGR (Cataratas airport, Argentina). On weekdays there are 7-8 flights to AEP, which is a lot more convenient than EZE. No CWB service will ever capture a significant amount of the traffic between the Iguacu area and Buenos Aires.

You must consider the higher fares on domestic services in Argentina. And i meant about the traffic IGU-CWB not only for Argentina but for other regions. There is no BSB-IGU service, there is no Northeast-IGU service, there is no POA-IGU service, there is no international service out of IGU.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 10):
From Maringa' one can take a morning nonstop flight to GRU and connect there

Very smart.... backtrack ! And there is no service MGF-GRU, you need to cross São Paulo from CGH to GRU.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 10):
From Londrina one can either drive to MGF or make two stops (CWB,GRU) or make one with a transfer CGH-GRU

Very smart again... LDB-CGH / GRU-EZE ... what size of demand you expect.. i should think 3 times before book a travel like that.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 10):
CWB as a connecting point to sustain this service would never work

You need to visit Curitiba and Paraná, it's almost 7% of Brazilian GDP (US$ 70 billion). You don't need to compete against Argentina, i'm saying they can run international services by itself if they keep at least a little connections network because it should create a major demand.

Never look for the numbers that you use to see to say a city is stronger or not, there are several activities, CWB is growing on congress industry as well as a touristic destination. Closer cities like Maringa, Cascavel, Pato Branco, Londrina, Foz, Paranagua and others keep growing at higher levels, there's an emerging upper-middle class and people are looking to CWB as an interesting alternative in terms of quality of life.


Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4020 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2988 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 11):
You must consider the higher fares on domestic services in Argentina.

What higher fare? www.lan.com gave me a roundtrip fare of $231 USD for a Brazilian resident, which seems quite reasonable. Only Aerolineas has higher fares for foreigners. IGU to EZE on TAM would be at least $350 USD.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 11):
And i meant about the traffic IGU-CWB not only for Argentina but for other regions. There is no BSB-IGU service, there is no Northeast-IGU service, there is no POA-IGU service, there is no international service out of IGU.

IGU traffic can connect at CWB, GRU, GIG. Iguacu is also a 3-airport area, with one airport in each country, so the presence of international service in this case is relative. The area has service to three countries.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 11):
Very smart.... backtrack ! And there is no service MGF-GRU, you need to cross São Paulo from CGH to GRU.

I backtrack all the time, and not only in Brazil. It is the reality of hubs and the price we pay for high frequency. The other mode of network is multistop flights, which Brazil, like the rest of the world, is abandoning.

MGF-GRU is JJ3400, daily early morning service nonstop to Guarulhos.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 11):
Very smart again... LDB-CGH / GRU-EZE ... what size of demand you expect.. i should think 3 times before book a travel like that.

I transfer CGH-GRU on a regular basis when I cannot get domestic flights out of GRU. It is awful but lots of people do it. LDB-EZE size of demand is tiny regardless. Those who don't want to do it can fly 2-stops.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 11):
You need to visit Curitiba and Paraná,

I know the area well and I agree with your statements about Parana'. However, TAM tried to serve CWB-EZE and it did not work. How many connections and what connections should have been there? GRU? GIG? They have nonstops to EZE. BSB, CNF and all of the rest of Brazil would have the CWB connection competing with plenty of GRU/GIG connections, so in order to fill the CWB-EZE flight with traffic, TAM would would have to add connections from places not served from CWB currently and those services would bleed red.

And finally, if there is to be a second Southern city linked to EZE daily, maybe FLN would do better than CWB.



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User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4516 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2939 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 9):
CM has a partnership in Brazil, it's G3. They have an agreement for BSB-MAO-PTY passengers as well as G3 keep it's code on one of the GRU-PTY flights.

As you posted out there is a limited agreement between CM and G3.
Let me put it this way: any passenger travelling from CWB to PTY is not capable to book G3: CWB-GRU and then CM: GRU-PTY as an entire codeshare option?
Is G3 compatible with CM services: weight restriction in baggage, meal service, in-flight entertainment, different classes within the aircraft and so on...?
The low-cost carriers are not well defined nowadays and many sources states G3 is considered one of that.
Regards.  Smile



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlineUSADreamliner From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2890 times:

I wonder if Pluna may take advantage of this situation, flying AEP-MVD-CWB.
Maybe the 733 is too big for the route.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11440 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2882 times:
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Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 13):
Is G3 compatible with CM services: weight restriction in baggage, meal service, in-flight entertainment, different classes within the aircraft and so on...?

Baggage is not a problem. G3 does not provide meal service, business class or inflight entertainment, but CM close the deal with G3.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 13):
Let me put it this way: any passenger travelling from CWB to PTY is not capable to book G3: CWB-GRU and then CM: GRU-PTY as an entire codeshare option?

No, CWB is not a destination included on the agreement, only GIG, GRU, BSB and MAO.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 12):
MGF-GRU is JJ3400, daily early morning service nonstop to Guarulhos.

Now... transferred from... CGH but probably will return in the near future.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 12):
I backtrack all the time, and not only in Brazil. It is the reality of hubs and the price we pay for high frequency. The other mode of network is multistop flights, which Brazil, like the rest of the world, is abandoning.

A city with 2 mm people would have some non-stop flights ! I backtrack also, but nowadays even less, i use to fly monthly from New York to Rio thru Atlanta just not to backtrack. A LIS-CWB service would not be backtrack. I know the world changed, but you can't keep a city like CWB as hostage of connecting always.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 12):
I transfer CGH-GRU on a regular basis when I cannot get domestic flights out of GRU. It is awful but lots of people do it. LDB-EZE size of demand is tiny regardless. Those who don't want to do it can fly 2-stops.

I never made that. For me it's a nightmare (and i lived in São Paulo during several years, so i understand the huge traffic jams) and i prefer to fly non-stop or to do the connection elsewhere.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 12):
They have nonstops to EZE. BSB, CNF and all of the rest of Brazil would have the CWB connection competing with plenty of GRU/GIG connections, so in order to fill the CWB-EZE flight with traffic, TAM would would have to add connections from places not served from CWB currently and those services would bleed red

Agree with you. Only say that TAM knows they need the E-Jets ! With them they could increase the network and create some services that can't be profitable with A320/A319. TAM capacity to accomodate demand is only good on bigger city pairs. They need smaller planes !!!!!

See last friday morning flights at CGH.....

JJ 3130= CGH /VIX > com o pob de 077 > alt. CNF. aut. 3h00
JJ 9405= CGH / GRU > com o pob de 04 > alt. GIG. aut. 3h30 (traslado)
G3 1240= CGH / POA > com o pob de 070 > alt. CPQ. aut. 3h40
O6 6162= CGH / CWB / POA > com o pob de 071 > alt. GRU. aut. 2h00
RG 2401= CGH / SDU > com o pob de 026 > alt. CPQ. aut. 1h50
G3 1500= CGH / SDU > com o pob de 072 > não reportou alt.
RG 2150= CGH / CWB > com o pob de 026 > alt. GIG. aut. 2h30
JJ 3902= CGH / SDU > com o pob de 047 > alt. CNF. aut. 2h40
JJ 3051= CGH / POA > com o pob de 030 > alt. CWB. aut. 3h00
JJ 3240= CGH / UDI > com o pob de 074 > alt. BSB. aut. 3h00
RG 2050= CGH / CNF > com o pob de 025 > alt. GIG. aut. 2h10
G3 1318= CGH / RAO > com o pob de 021 > alt. GIG. aut. 2h00
JJ 3200= CGH / CNF > com o pob de 069 > alt. CPQ. aut. 2h40
G3 1300= CGH / NVT > com o pob de 042 > alt. POA. aut. 3h00
RG 2405= CGH / SDU > com o pob de 050 > alt. GRU. aut. 1h50

Source: Contato Radar


Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineDellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 1088 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2882 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 12):
And finally, if there is to be a second Southern city linked to EZE daily, maybe FLN would do better than CWB.

Correct. Curitiba just doesn't generate enough traffic for international flights to Argentina. Simply connect at POA and be fine with it. Otherwise, a little detour in GRU or GIG wouldn't hurt. So no need for EZE or anywhere else for that matter.

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 14):
I wonder if Pluna may take advantage of this situation, flying AEP-MVD-CWB.
Maybe the 733 is too big for the route.

If they wanna waste their $$ then go ahead.


User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4020 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2858 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 15):
TAM capacity to accomodate demand is only good on bigger city pairs. They need smaller planes !!!!!

As an airline, TAM is (today) doing just fine with a fleet of A319/A320. [[ The F100s at his point are just waiting retirement ]]. What drives TAM's fleet is its desire to make money and to stay competitive. It goes after the largest markets with the lowest unit cost possible (i.e., large narrow bodies). The only other competitor, GOL, has a similar strategy. The result is that 90 to 95% of those who want to travel domestic Brazil have affordable fares and a choice of airline. TAM will only purchase a smaller aircraft if the competitor does. Or if a new entrant like BRA does it and is successful. Or if all large markets are saturated with service offering marginal returns and smaller markets are identified as the next profit opportunity.

Now, I can advance a counterpoint: Maybe TAM & GOL are doing fine with their large airplanes, but the ~10% of the travel public who is willing to fly from midsize to smaller cities is left with little or no options. I can't see why anybody should think that TAM or GOL should take a risky move to serve those markets. However, if the government sees a reason, it should create incentives to have those markets served. They could for example, reduce taxation related to using aircraft like the EMB-145 or EMB-170 in the country, or create a subsidy program for service at smaller communities like the one the US has.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 15):
Now... transferred from... CGH but probably will return in the near future.

You are speculating to the return of MGF-GRU to CGH. I will speculate too: Gol serves MGF-CWB-CPQ. MGF-CGH on GOL needs a connection. TAM can move the flight to GRU without fear that their passengers will migrate en masse to GOL. The flight will likely continue to go to GRU unless GOL starts MGF-CGH or in the case GRU becomes much more congested than CGH.



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User currently offlineDellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 1088 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2841 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 17):
As an airline, TAM is (today) doing just fine with a fleet of A319/A320. [[ The F100s at his point are just waiting retirement ]]. What drives TAM's fleet is its desire to make money and to stay competitive. It goes after the largest markets with the lowest unit cost possible (i.e., large narrow bodies). The only other competitor, GOL, has a similar strategy. The result is that 90 to 95% of those who want to travel domestic Brazil have affordable fares and a choice of airline. TAM will only purchase a smaller aircraft if the competitor does. Or if a new entrant like BRA does it and is successful. Or if all large markets are saturated with service offering marginal returns and smaller markets are identified as the next profit opportunity.

Now, I can advance a counterpoint: Maybe TAM & GOL are doing fine with their large airplanes, but the ~10% of the travel public who is willing to fly from midsize to smaller cities is left with little or no options. I can't see why anybody should think that TAM or GOL should take a risky move to serve those markets. However, if the government sees a reason, it should create incentives to have those markets served. They could for example, reduce taxation related to using aircraft like the EMB-145 or EMB-170 in the country, or create a subsidy program for service at smaller communities like the one the US has.

I don't see the point in JJ buying E-jest. IF BRA wants to embark in this new venture, let them do it. As you said, JJ is doing just fine with the Airbuses. What the government should do is give incentives to regional airlines to fill this gap. TRIP, Pantanal, Total, Rico, TAF and so on should have better opportunities for growing into smaller markets suchs as CPQ-POA, GYN-MAO, BSB-MCP, VIX-CWB, SSA-BEL, CGR-GIG.......


User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4516 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2786 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 9):
Not only JJ but AF, IB, TP and other foreign airlines do well at CWB market.

What about any other European carriers flying to GRU: BA, LH, LX?
Their operations are working exclusively as origin-destination or do they have partnerships with any Brazilian carrier in order to transferred passengers to somewhere else in the country?



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11440 posts, RR: 58
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2745 times:
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Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 19):
What about any other European carriers flying to GRU: BA, LH, LX?

Some airlines do not disclosure information about the real O&D of their passengers. For sure BA gets a good market at CWB because of HSBC HQ in Brazil. Considering LH/LX, it's not huge the size of german or swiss investment in Parana. But could be interesting the traffic to Scandinavia as corporates like Volvo, Electrolux and some service providers are in Parana.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 18):
I don't see the point in JJ buying E-jest. IF BRA wants to embark in this new venture, let them do it. As you said, JJ is doing just fine with the Airbuses

Delatorre, not so well ... they loose money during the past 4 months because they have excessive offer. If you look for the growing of small markets, all are higher than 20% over 2006 levels, and they can even grow more if a smaller plane is available.
The E-Jets could complete JJ Airbus fleet and would allow them to serve destinations that an Airbus (even A319) is not profitable.

Large aircraft will help TAM to build hubs, but hubs are everything customers are trying to avoid now.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4020 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2739 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 20):
If you look for the growing of small markets, all are higher than 20% over 2006 levels, and they can even grow more if a smaller plane is available.
The E-Jets could complete JJ Airbus fleet and would allow them to serve destinations that an Airbus (even A319) is not profitable.

Would smaller jets let TAM grow profitably? I don't think you or I can answer their question. But the hurdle is as follows: The introduction of another fleet type has to create profitability that overcomes the higher cost per seat and the added costs of another set of spare parts, equipment and training. I am not a TAM insider but I believe TAM has looked at smaller aircraft many times, being even very close to making a purchase. But in the end the business case was not there.

Another thought on smaller jets: mid-size non-capital cities would like first a link to their state capital and second most often a link to Sao Paulo. Smaller jets result in increased frequency, which passengers like because it gives them more options. Can you imagine what would become of CGH and GRU if Brazil gets large numbers of 50-70 seaters? Unless flights to Sao Paulo were outlawed, Brazil would then experience some real congestion for the first time.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 20):
Large aircraft will help TAM to build hubs, but hubs are everything customers are trying to avoid now.

US hubs, even the large ones like Atlanta, have an inordinate number of flights in small jets. Small jets are ideal to create frequency and destination variety that make hubs thrive.



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User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11440 posts, RR: 58
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2731 times:
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Quoting Incitatus (Reply 21):
US hubs, even the large ones like Atlanta, have an inordinate number of flights in small jets. Small jets are ideal to create frequency and destination variety that make hubs thrive.

And it's not Brazilian case... only large aircraft and some destinations with a single and sole option.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 21):
Would smaller jets let TAM grow profitably?

I believe !

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 21):
Another thought on smaller jets: mid-size non-capital cities would like first a link to their state capital and second most often a link to Sao Paulo

You can connect small cities from even São Paulo state like SJK to Rio or CNF and then you take advantage of widebodies...
You can connect city pairs that could be impossible for an A319 to run, like RAO-SSA or JOI-BSB
You can increase the number of flights in a market with limited offer (as the sole PNZ flight), you can change for a 2 or 3 daily services, which probably will create additional demand.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4020 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2700 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 22):
You can connect small cities from even São Paulo state like SJK to Rio or CNF and then you take advantage of widebodies...
You can connect city pairs that could be impossible for an A319 to run, like RAO-SSA or JOI-BSB
You can increase the number of flights in a market with limited offer (as the sole PNZ flight), you can change for a 2 or 3 daily services, which probably will create additional demand.

You keep missing my point. Airlines are not utilities. Their objective is not to provide transportation to everybody who can afford it. Their objective is to survive as profitable companies in the long run. If you had had P&L responsibility, you would know.

Again, how many people want to go from Ribeirao to Salvador every day? 10? Yes, somebody can make Ribeirao a hub to accumulate traffic. But how about Rio Preto, or Uberlandia, or even Campinas? Do we make all of them into hubs? Brazil's domestic network has about 1450 departures a day. Only Atlanta has about 1300 domestic departures per day. There is just not enough traffic in Brazil to make the network you would like to see. The way to give the most people the lowest cost transportation is by using large narrow-bodies. Brazil's record on stable airlines is pretty poor, so TAM being conservative about adding smaller aircraft makes sense.



Stop pop up ads
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2690 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 22):



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 23):

I'm not sure you two are in the same page. TAM did look into the E-jets, but because of RG and the current market expansion they decided to go for more capacity/Airbus, at least for now. That does leave open some opportunities, or at least some "right-sizing" potential, but remember TAM doesn't have an infinite amount of money and they are trying to use their resources as efficiently as they can. Personally, I trust TAM is doing a good job. Even if it means a delay for some other markets and expansions/diversification we A.netters would like to see.

[Edited 2007-08-24 05:34:38]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
25 Incitatus : I agree. A company does not exist in a market vacuum. Corporate strategy is shaped by capital and competition. In the case of TAM, there have been ou
26 LipeGIG : For sure TAM took a look on the market on a previous time... but now the demand shows how important is to count with smaller planes. Several routes wi
27 Hardiwv : Agree with you. Also, when there is a market airlines do operate it with profitability, see AR 1/2 x week and TAM 1 x week operations FLN-EZE nonstop
28 LipeGIG : With no competition, it's the case. But there are opportunities at CWB that i expect other airlines take advantage. Felipe
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