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Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777  
User currently offlineGopal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 10629 times:

I flew on a UA 777 from London to ORD last sunday. The chief purser announced that the name of the captain and two first officers. Is this common ? I thought that 777 had a flight crew of 2. Could it be that the "second" first officer non-revving and they announced his name just in case his advice would be needed ?

BTW, It was a very pleasant flight. I was able to experience the signature 777 interior for the first time. The overhead bins have been uniquely designed to provide more cabin space. However, I found that latches of the bins in the closed position to be a bit high. A person with a height of less than 5'5'' would not be able to open and close the center bins. Was this a concious design decision on the part of Boeing ? Any insights would be appreciated.

44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirTran737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 10618 times:
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Quoting Gopal (Thread starter):
I flew on a UA 777 from London to ORD last sunday. The chief purser announced that the name of the captain and two first officers. Is this common ? I thought that 777 had a flight crew of 2. Could it be that the "second" first officer non-revving and they announced his name just in case his advice would be needed ?

Any flight over 8 hours requires a third pilot. This situation is very common. Glad you had a good flight.


User currently offlineAcey From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 10618 times:

Beat me to it. I had the pleasure of flying YYZ-NRT and speaking with all three pilots at its conclusion. They explained the policy and the time at which each pilot took a rest. Cool stuff.

[Edited 2007-08-21 07:58:15]

User currently offlineTdscanuck From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 10384 times:

Quoting Gopal (Thread starter):
A person with a height of less than 5'5'' would not be able to open and close the center bins. Was this a concious design decision on the part of Boeing ?

It was certainly conscious in the sense that Boeing knew how tall a person would have to be to open the latch. It's not something they just discovered after they built the plane.

I would assume they did a trade study on headroom/passenger comfort vs. bin height and decided that having it be a little tall was an acceptable trade for the increased space.

Tom.


User currently offlineIAHFLYR From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 10256 times:

International Relief Officer (IRO) is the common term for the 3rd and even at times 4th flight deck crew members.

User currently offlineUAL777UK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 10231 times:

The resting officer on a 777 will be having a snooze in his F Suite, 3A whilst not in the cockpit

Only on a couple of occasions whilst flying F on UA has that pilot ever really stopped to have a chat.

I am flying to ORD on the 8th September in F on UA.


User currently offlineA380US From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 10186 times:

and i just flew israir on a 767-300ER snd there were 4 flight crew adn i think thats because a flight for over 12 needs 4 people

User currently offlinePatroni From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 10147 times:

The crew duty time regulations differ from country to country, there is no universally applicable rule. In addition, the requirements vary depending on the time of departure. A flight into the night can require more flight crew members than a daytime flight of the same length due to increased effect of fatigue at night.

And - to make it even more complicated - the collective work agreements between crews and individual airlines may foresee further limitations.


User currently offlineMusapapaya From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 10099 times:

I was on a LH MUC-HKG (A340-300) flight and there were 3 crew members flying the plane, i bet if they fly to HKG from a bit further like LHR they would need 4 crews as the flight is almost 12 hours? I think Zeke or other BA guys can answer this  Wink

User currently offlineNorcal773 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9970 times:

Quoting A380US (Reply 6):
and i just flew israir

You just flew who??

Interesting part is, I flew SQ SFO-ICN-SIN and the same 'captain' who made the announceent before we left SFO was the same one who did when we left ICN for SIN. The rest of he crew got off at ICN but he remained and I couldn't figure out why.


User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 9524 times:

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 9):
Interesting part is, I flew SQ SFO-ICN-SIN and the same 'captain' who made the announceent before we left SFO was the same one who did when we left ICN for SIN. The rest of he crew got off at ICN but he remained and I couldn't figure out why

Impossible!!!!


User currently offlineBoston92 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 9056 times:

One quick question. Does the same person who (per se) "took-off" the aircraft also "land" the aircraft if the flight is over 8 hours long.

Does UA1 have a third pilot?


User currently offlineMax Q From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 8614 times:

Usually, yes the flying pilot will fly the whole leg (apart from when he is taking his break of course)

So that includes the take off and landing.


User currently offlineIkramerica From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 8341 times:

Quoting Gopal (Thread starter):
A person with a height of less than 5'5'' would not be able to open and close the center bins.

But they can open and close the side bins, so they can stow their belongings. Alternatively, if those bins are filled, they can ask for assistance.


User currently offlineA380US From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 8249 times:

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 11):
One quick question. Does the same person who (per se) "took-off" the aircraft also "land" the aircraft if the flight is over 8 hours long.

on lets sya a flight of 12 hours the pilot and 2 copilots would take off and one copilot would leave after take off and the other 2 would saty for 2-3 hours then switch with other copilot and pilot and they would fly towards the end of the fligh twhere theyd switch again(i think)


User currently offlineTozairport From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 7488 times:

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 11):
One quick question. Does the same person who (per se) "took-off" the aircraft also "land" the aircraft if the flight is over 8 hours long.

Sure. The typical scenario goes something like this... Every crew member is on the flight deck for the first 30 and the last 45 minutes of the flight. The remaining time is either divided up by 2 (over 12 hours with 4 pilots) or 3 (over 8 but less than 12 hours with 3 pilots). The pilots spend their allotted time on break but the "flying" pilots perform both the takeoff and landing. The "relief pilots" are there to manage the aircraft while the flying pilots are on break. At UA, the co-pilots are fully qualified as flying pilots and relief pilots, so the intermix is seamless. For example, this month I have one "flying" SFO-ICN trip, one "relief pilot" SFO-NRT trip, and one "relief pilot" SFO-KIX-HNL-KIX-SFO trip. Hope that helps.


User currently offlinePositiverate From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 7442 times:

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 9):
You just flew who??

http://www.israirairlines.com/


User currently offlineTom12 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 7289 times:

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 10):
Impossible!!!!

Care to elaborate


User currently offlineUA76Heavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 7173 times:

Quoting Patroni (Reply 7):
The crew duty time regulations differ from country to country, there is no universally applicable rule. In addition, the requirements vary depending on the time of departure. A flight into the night can require more flight crew members than a daytime flight of the same length due to increased effect of fatigue at night.

Back in the summer of 1999, I flew a MU MD-11 from LAX to PVG (with a 45 minute technical stop in ANC). IIRC they did it with only 2 pilots. We left LAX around 13:00 and arrived in PVG around 19:00, all daylight flying. Compared to the American airlines that use senior pilots on the international Pacific flights, these guys looked like they were in their late 20's, like right out of the air force (and flew out of ANC like they were, too!).


User currently offlineADXMatt From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 7102 times:

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 5):
The resting officer on a 777 will be having a snooze in his F Suite, 3A whilst not in the cockpit

On a CO B777 there are 2 pilot bunks located behind the flight deck and before the galley.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 9):
Interesting part is, I flew SQ SFO-ICN-SIN and the same 'captain' who made the announceent before we left SFO was the same one who did when we left ICN for SIN. The rest of he crew got off at ICN but he remained and I couldn't figure out why

Couldn't be the same capt. on both legs if it was a connection with less then 8 hours connecting time.
The time on SQ for that routing is 12h30m from SFO-ICN and 6h 15min = 18h45min
19h 45m with the connecting time plus a 75 min checkin/checkout 21hrs.

His voice must have been similar sounding but not the same guy unless he was off-duty. If he was off duty he wouldn't be making announcements.


User currently offlineTozairport From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 6873 times:

Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 19):

On a CO B777 there are 2 pilot bunks located behind the flight deck and before the galley.

Some of UA's 777's are like this too (10, I believe). The rest use either one or two F seats with a curtain that pulls around it to reduce noise. With the new F and C class on UA, the bunk room will have one F seat in it and there will be one F seat with a curtain reserved for the pilots on flights over 12 hours. A pretty good solution since the overhead rest facilities are not available for retrofit from Boeing anymore.


User currently offlineFL370 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 6801 times:

ya any flight that is longer than 8 hours with have atleast 3crew memebers in the copit. back in december i flew sfo-hkg-sgn with 2pilots, and 2 first officers. its common to see that. nothing to worry about.


fl370


User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6404 times:

Quoting Tom12 (Reply 17):
Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 10):
Impossible!!!!

Care to elaborate

There isn't much to elaborate. Under the ALPS-S contract, and the CAAS rules, the same Captain couldn't have operated both segments in the same FDP. He would have to have gotten off in ICN to get crew rest then continue on after his rest.


User currently offlineSSTsomeday From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6244 times:

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 5):
The resting officer on a 777 will be having a snooze in his F Suite, 3A whilst not in the cockpit

Would it be an idea to put a premium rest seat in the crew rest area (my understanding being that the 777, especially, has a lot of crew rest space available above the cabin), so they could sell that seat? That's a lot of revenue to lose on every flight, considering the little things airlines look for to save a few pennies here and there in flight.

Is this a union issue?

(edited for spelling)

[Edited 2007-08-22 06:36:50]

User currently offlineTozairport From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6099 times:

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 23):
Would it be an idea to put a premium rest seat in the crew rest area (my understanding being the the 777, especially, has a lot of crew rest space available above the cabin), so they could sell that seat? That's a lot of revenue to lose on every flight, considering the little things airlines look for to save a few pennies here and there in flight.

Not a union issue. At least at UA, we had in our contract that they would begin installing the overhead bunks at the "D" checks, but as I understand Boeing is no longer offering the retrofit kit, so we are stuck with the F seat or the small bunk room. I agree with you that it would make sense not to put a crew member in a revenue seat, but UA management does not see it this way. Personally, I would very much prefer the overhead bunk. The F seat is very comfortable, but the noise from the cabin is really not blocked by the curtain which makes good rest difficult.


25 Acey : UA 1, the westbound leg, obviously would because it's blocked at 8 hours and 55 minutes, but UA 2, the eastbound leg, is blocked at 7 hours and 58 mi
26 LHR777 : Features you'll find on every 777 - not just the one on which you flew!
27 RFields5421 : Since people of a height less than 5'5" have different arm lengths and different body lengths - that probably did not play into any ergonomic design
28 Norcal773 : Well, that's what I thought but I do remember the guy's weird name and the fact that he said 'as I told you when we left San Francisco......' at some
29 PhilSquares : I can guarantee you, the same Captain did not fly both legs. It wasn't legal and could/would never be done!
30 Post contains images Norcal773 : Ok. Like I said, I thought so but I guess it was a coincidence. On another note, I think of 'PhilSquares' whenever I see the captain in SQ's safety v
31 Vrille : I read a lot about rest and duty limitations, but a third flight crew member can also implicate that one of them is there for route instruction purpo
32 Tozairport : The third pilot in this case was certainly the relief pilot. It is possible that the third crew member could be a standards captain giving a route ch
33 RoseFlyer : That is a concern with the design on the 777. On the 787 the bins will have a new handle mechanism that is easier to use. You'll probably see that te
34 Positiverate : Interesting. At DL they are located above the first class cabin, and accessed via a ladder.
35 SSTsomeday : It seems to me that this enhancement added to the UA 777s (or any other airline that reserves a 1st class seat for pilot rest) would quickly pay for
36 Norcal773 : Most Asian carriers I've flown on to and from the US use F or J class seats as a crew rest. These include SQ and OZ. I doubt any airline fully sells
37 Apodino : Hey Tozairport. I notice you are a UA 777 pilot who flies to asia a bit. I am a dispatcher for a regional airline that has done much research about in
38 Tozairport : send me a PM and I'll be happy to discuss anything with you....
39 PhilSquares : As far as SQ goes, the J seats on the 744 are not the primary crew rest facility. The bunks are in the upper deck but there are 2 seats blocked in J
40 Ktachiya : Somebody brought up the UA pilot seating in the F seat. I witnessed something very interesting all the time on JAL flights between YVR-NRT. This fligh
41 Norcal773 : Does the captain decide whether to give up the seat? Hmmm... A uniformed pilot drinking shots of tequila, not something many people would be comforta
42 PhilSquares : A good Captain will consult the other crewmembers and then make the decision based on their input. It's a double edged sword, because on one hand it'
43 Ktachiya : Well, he was drinking wine rather than shots, and yes I knew about the 12 hour rule so I was completely comfortable with it. And well, he was sitting
44 AASTEW : All of AA's B777's have crew bunks for both Flight Deck Crew (behind cockpit door A/C Left) and Inflight Crew(center section MD level adjacent to 3L/R
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