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Boeing Faces Hurdles, Opportunities On The 787  
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5790 posts, RR: 47
Posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 20075 times:

Hi all,
Great update from the Flightblogger web site:

http://flightblogger.blogspot.com/20...aces-hurdles-opportunities-on.html

Fair Use Excerpt Follows:

Boeing faces hurdles, opportunities on the road to an on-time 787 entry into service

According to multiple sources inside the 787 program, Boeing has delayed delivery of major structural parts for Dreamliner Two indefinitely as work feverishly continues on preparing Dreamliner One for its first flight this fall.

Put simply, there is a small bottleneck inside of Building 40-26 at the Boeing factory in Everett interfering with deliveries. Two of the four final assembly positions are in use. The first position in the rear of the factory is occupied by the Static Rig (ZY997), the second by Dreamliner One (ZA001).

Dreamliner One continues to undergo extremely extensive structural and systems assembly and is currently jacked up off its landing gear surrounded by scaffolding, making the forward movement to make way for the Static Rig difficult until it returns to pavement.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
157 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIAD787 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 502 posts, RR: 44
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 19832 times:

This is not a good situation. The manpower just simply isn't there to build a second aircraft. The pictures really capture how much is left.

One way or another, this plane will fly, be certified and delivered. When specifically, I haven't a clue. I'd say first flight in September/October is just as likely as November or beyond. No one knows the answer to this question and anyone claiming to is full of it unless they're spending quality time with Boeing 787 program managers.

Making an airplane is hard. Whether you're Airbus, Boeing or whatever, making something fly is NOT easy, even if we're 104 years after the fact.

Props to both companies for making something that we can't keep our eyes, ears and minds off of.

Onward,

IAD787

[Edited 2007-08-21 22:34:01]


Former FlightBlogger turned Wall Street Journal Aerospace Beat Reporter
User currently offlineIAD787 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 502 posts, RR: 44
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 19599 times:

Also, the LCF has been flying around between CHS and PAE on Evergreen Flight Crew training flights all week as EIA5780. Nothing on board.


Former FlightBlogger turned Wall Street Journal Aerospace Beat Reporter
User currently offlineAF2323 From France, joined Aug 2007, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 19599 times:

Quoting IAD787 (Reply 2):
Making an airplane is hard. Whether you're Airbus, Boeing or whatever, making something fly is NOT easy, even if we're 104 years after the fact.

Props to both companies for making something that we can't keep our eyes, ears and minds off of.

Exactly.

Now, if the first flight is significantly late (which I don't hope) , I'll be very impressed if they still manage to deliver the plane in May 2008. That will be a very aggressive flight test program (it already was from the beginning). We can be sure that Boeing's workers are giving their best... let's wait and see.


User currently offlineGEG2RAP From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 852 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 19428 times:

Quoting AF2323 (Reply 4):
We can be sure that Boeing's workers are giving their best... let's wait and see.

This is something that can be said for both A380 and 787 programs, both are revolutionary for the industry and it's always better to be safe than sorry.
So some delays might are to be expected.


User currently offlineIAD787 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 502 posts, RR: 44
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 19146 times:

LCF2 is back in Charleston, it was on the ground in Everett for less than 3 hours. The flight number again is for training flights. Anyone know if they are moving fixtures or anything?


Former FlightBlogger turned Wall Street Journal Aerospace Beat Reporter
User currently offlineSphealey From United States of America, joined May 2005, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 19054 times:

> Now, if the first flight is significantly late (which I don't hope) , I'll be very impressed if
> they still manage to deliver the plane in May 2008.

What is the definition of "significantly late"? AFAIK Boeing have not publicly announced a date for first flight, which means that we do not know if it is technically late or not. And we also don't know if first flight in on the critical path for EIS or not. As Jon has indicated if it is possible to accelerate the 2nd and 3rd flying ships and then do more of the flight testing in parallel then first flight might not be critical path.

sPh


User currently offlineIAD787 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 502 posts, RR: 44
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 18974 times:

I think "significantly late" is when airlines start canceling their orders.


Former FlightBlogger turned Wall Street Journal Aerospace Beat Reporter
User currently offlineER757 From Cayman Islands, joined May 2005, 2558 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 18926 times:

Quoting IAD787 (Reply 9):
I think "significantly late" is when airlines start canceling their orders.

I don't know about that one...certainly we'd all agree that the A380 is significantly late, yet no one's cancelled an order for the pax version - in fact many have placed add-on orders.
Here's hoping Boeing gets it together on the 787 production schedule and flight test/certification program. They definitely face some hurdles but I wish them the best.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8325 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 18746 times:

While there is some pressure right now how many 787s can Boeing assemble and add to the test fleet in order to minimize he time for certification? Is it possible for a few of the 787s scheduled for initial customers to be added to the testing? I understand that Boeing is going to have more than a few ready when certification is obtained. If certification is delayed will Boeing continue to produce and its scheduled rate in order to avoid deliveries down the line?

User currently offlineCharles79 From Puerto Rico, joined Mar 2007, 1331 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 18423 times:

As a program manager myself, following the development of both the A380 and the 787 has been fascinating to say the least. Of course, my satellite program (being built by an aerospace company that shall remain nameless, let's just say they built a rather famous tri-jet) is in a very serious delay when compared with these two. We were supposed to launch in 2002...now in 2009, and counting. As somebody already mentioned, even if the 787 is delayed, the mere fact that such an advanced plane takes to the skies is an accomplishment in itself. I wish that both Boeing and Airbus remain in business for a long time, cause the products of their rivalry are some pretty exciting planes!

Cheers!

Charles


User currently offlineAApilot2b From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 572 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 17947 times:

I read the entire article and see no reason to panic yet. The fact is, every new airplane program has had some sort of issues a long the way. Today, information is more readily available to us, meaning every little detail, mistake, snare, etc... along the way is highlighted to us.

User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1896 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 17774 times:

Quoting IAD787 (Reply 2):
making something fly is NOT easy, even if we're 104 years after the fact.

OT - it's actually 116 years after the fact (http://www.flyingmachines.org/lilthl.html)
Is power-on still happening later this week or early next week?



STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlineJonathan-l From France, joined Mar 2002, 506 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 17151 times:

First flight / first delivery:

A340-300: Oct 91 / Mar 93 = 17 months
A330-300: Nov 92 / Dec 93 = 13 months
767-300ER: Nov 86 / Feb 88 = 14 months
777-200: Jun 94 / May 95 = 11 months
777-300ER: Feb 03 / Apr 04 = 13 months

So Boeing's initial flight test schedule was very agressive but based on the previous programmes, shouldn't we expect about a year between first flight and delivery?


User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 16995 times:

Quoting Jonathan-l (Reply 15):
First flight / first delivery:

A340-300: Oct 91 / Mar 93 = 17 months
A330-300: Nov 92 / Dec 93 = 13 months
767-300ER: Nov 86 / Feb 88 = 14 months
777-200: Jun 94 / May 95 = 11 months
777-300ER: Feb 03 / Apr 04 = 13 months

So Boeing's initial flight test schedule was very agressive but based on the previous programmes, shouldn't we expect about a year between first flight and delivery?

Why don't we add the A380 program to that data?

A380-800: Apr 04 / Oct 07 = 30 months  Wow!

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlineAF2323 From France, joined Aug 2007, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 16957 times:

Quoting Sphealey (Reply 8):
What is the definition of "significantly late"? AFAIK Boeing have not publicly announced a date for first flight, which means that we do not know if it is technically late or not. And we also don't know if first flight in on the critical path for EIS or not. As Jon has indicated if it is possible to accelerate the 2nd and 3rd flying ships and then do more of the flight testing in parallel then first flight might not be critical path.

For me "significantly late" would mean a situation that would cause the delivery to be postponed. I agree the first flight may not be so important, but it is an indication on how smooth things are going. They currently have issues on Dreamliner one, but how will it impact on the following planes?
So, I can't tell you what is significantly late in that case, as I don't have inside knowledge on what's going on and what are Boeing backup plans. But I assume there is a minimum length for the certification program, depending on the number of Dreamliners Boeing will be able to use. Could they certify the plane in say, less than six month?


User currently offlineLHR27C From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 1279 posts, RR: 16
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 16918 times:

Quoting WINGS (Reply 16):
A380-800: Apr 04 / Oct 07 = 30 months Wow!

I think that should be April 05!  Smile



Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned forever skyward
User currently offlineLN-KGL From Norway, joined Sep 1999, 1042 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 16676 times:

Do I sense a change of tone from one year ago or am I wrong?

I would say we have to prepare our selfs for a late Dream - maybe a more realistic EIS would be at the start of the winter season 2008/2009? Even that schedule would be a tight one if you look at the latest records of Boeing wide bodied twins:

767-200: ff 26 Sept 1981 eis 8 Sept 1982 = 11.5 months
767-200ER: ff 6 Mar 1984 eis 27 Mar 1984 = 21 days
767-300: ff 30 Jan 1986 eis 20 Oct 1986 = 9.6 months
767-300ER: ff 9 Dec 1986 eis 3 Mar 1988 = 14.7 months
767-400ER: ff 9 Oct 1999 eis 14 Sept 200 = 11.2 months
777-200: ff 12 Jun 1994 eis 7 June 1995 = 11.8 months
777-200ER: ff 7 Oct 1996 eis 9 Feb 1997 = 4.1 months
777-200LR: ff 8 Mar 2005 eis 3 Mar 2006 = 11.8 months
777-300: ff 16 Oct 1997 eis 27 May 1998 = 7.3 months
777-300ER: ff 24 Feb 2003 eis 10 May 2004 = 14.5 months

Average of all the above = 9.7 months
Average of the first of type = 11.7 months
Average of the last two projects = 13.2 months

In addition to all that new technology for the 787, the trend has to be broken big time if Boeing is going to deliver in May.

[Edited 2007-08-22 11:23:21]

[Edited 2007-08-22 11:24:47]

User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 16593 times:

Quoting Sphealey (Reply 8):
AFAIK Boeing have not publicly announced a date for first flight, which means that we do not know if it is technically late or not.

They haven't publicly announced a date (and they don't have one internally) but they have publicly stated target ranges several times. They look like they will probably miss their initial targets.

Quoting Jonathan-l (Reply 15):
So Boeing's initial flight test schedule was very agressive but based on the previous programmes, shouldn't we expect about a year between first flight and delivery?

You can't really base this one off of previous programs because it's so different. This is really a clean-sheet as far as design, production, and certification goes.

Tom.


User currently offlineCaptainX From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 197 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 16354 times:

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 18):
You can't really base this one off of previous programs because it's so different. This is really a clean-sheet as far as design, production, and certification goes.

And likely will take much longer to certify due to new technologies the FAA is not yet comfortable with, new processes that the FAA is not yet comfortable with, and certification of foreign factories by the FAA - a huge hurdle. Then if there are technical issues, like pressurization, electric brakes, composite bubbles or delam, software, and/or wiring; then triple the time.

History has shown that almost all revolutionary attempts fail.


User currently offlineBrendows From Norway, joined Apr 2006, 1020 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 16295 times:

Quoting CaptainX (Reply 19):
electric brakes

Why are you so negative towards the electrical brakes, which really is no more than an electrical actuator pushing on the brake discs, why is it so more likely to fail in your eyes compared to the normal hydraulic brakes?  scratchchin 

Quoting CaptainX (Reply 19):
composite bubbles or delam

A fuselage section with bubbles in it wouldn't get far in the production process, they are checked for these malfunctions early on. The use of composites aren't new in the aviation business, why should delamination and bubbles be a problem now?

You are one pessimistic chap aren't you  bouncy 


Thanks for the updates IAD787! Do you know how far they have come when it comes to changing the ~1000 temporary fasteners on LN1?


User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 16160 times:

Quoting CaptainX (Reply 19):
And likely will take much longer to certify due to new technologies the FAA is not yet comfortable with, new processes that the FAA is not yet comfortable with, and certification of foreign factories by the FAA - a huge hurdle.

Which technology isn't the FAA comfortable with? They've certified composite fuselages, wings, and empennage before. Most of this type of concern was addressed quite some time ago; all of the material certification challenges have nothing to do with flight testing.

As for foreign factories, that's hardly new. Huge chunks of many current Boeing airplanes come from overseas and most of Airbus airplanes (which are FAA certified) are from foreign factories. Why would that be any bigger a hurdle here than it usually is?

Tom.


User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6953 posts, RR: 46
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 15917 times:

Quoting CaptainX (Reply 19):

History has shown that almost all revolutionary attempts fail.

If that were indeed true we would still be riding around in horse-drawn buggies.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31110 posts, RR: 85
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 15575 times:
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Quoting CaptainX (Reply 19):
And likely will take much longer to certify due to new technologies the FAA is not yet comfortable with, new processes that the FAA is not yet comfortable with, and certification of foreign factories by the FAA - a huge hurdle. Then if there are technical issues, like pressurization, electric brakes, composite bubbles or delam, software, and/or wiring; then triple the time.

Boeing has been working with the FAA, in some cases for years, on many of these technologies and processes. Hell, if I am not misinterpreting reports, Boeing is helping the FAA write the actual certification procedures themselves for some of these technologies. So I don't see where the FAA is going to suddenly stop the certification process since they've been part of it since before program launch.

The Japanese heavies are already certified (have been since 1979 with the 767) and they make some 30% of the 777 so the FAA won't have any beefs there. Not sure how much previous work Alenia has done for Boeing, but I imagine they've done work for Airbus and that family has been certified for operation in the US by the FAA.

So I see no delays from those issues.


User currently offlineTKV From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 15235 times:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 22):
Quoting CaptainX (Reply 19):

History has shown that almost all revolutionary attempts fail.

If that were indeed true we would still be riding around in horse-drawn buggies.

Why you and any other bother to answer such kind of statements ??

TKV


25 IAD787 : Anyone else having trouble getting to the page?
26 TKV : As I assume the discussion will continue here, I post this referring to the thread "787 Assembly Update (Detailed) - Part V III" (""PART VIII) This is
27 EI321 : heres what I'm getting: Google Error Server Error The server encountered a temporary error and could not complete your request. Please try again in 3
28 IAD787 : Okay, I'm not alone. Everything in the blogspot.com universe is dead. That's not good at all.
29 BoomBoom : "Significantly late" would be if Boeing has to pay compensation to the airlines.
30 SEPilot : For the fun of it, of course.
31 AF2323 : It could be a technical problem that will be solved soon... Or Boeing has no willingness anymore to share information and asked to shut down the webs
32 IAD787 : Nah, it's not Boeing. Seriously all xxxxxxx.blogspot.com websites are down ----- Blogger and Blog*Spot are unavailable Blogger and Blog*Spot are unav
33 DAYflyer : Gosh I hope this program does not slip further. How will this impact orders and deliveries if they miss on LN 001, or if testing falls behind??
34 Tdscanuck : That's my understanding as well. I just finished an Avaiation Week & Space Technology article that includes a chunk on that very subject (fair use ex
35 AF2323 : Ok, that's good news.
36 IAD787 : It's up and running again.
37 Stitch : Because I wouldn't want members to mistakenly think those statements were factually accurate...[Edited 2007-08-22 17:48:41]
38 Texfly101 : No airline will cancel their order for this airplane. All their contracts have penalty clauses for damages due to non delivery. Also, if the worst ca
39 Post contains images TeamAmerica : Agreed. I think the B787 is likely to be late, but it's not a concern until there is a material financial impact. Finishing flight testing late will
40 LY4XELD : Your assumptions are baseless and completely absurd. There, I said it.
41 CaptainX : I happen to know what I am talking about here, like it or not.
42 Tdscanuck : It won't impact orders at all. People that have already placed orders have penalty payments in their contracts and people that are negotiating orders
43 Post contains images HawkerCamm : I've recently found out that hours will be required on the static test rig before the first aircraft will be cleared to fly. The static test rig will
44 SEPilot : You have offered no evidence to support your bald assertions and nothing in your profile to give you any credibility whatsoever. A bald assertion tha
45 CaptainX : Well, well, say it ain't so. Parts for LN2 now push out at least 2 more months.
46 SEPilot : Certainly it's possible, but I tend to believe that when Boeing laid out the schedule that they had a slight idea of what they were doing and how lon
47 EI321 : Does anybody know how long an aircraft would have to be delayed before the manufacturer starts looking a compensation?
48 Post contains images Stitch : Yet I am pretty sure this point is not lost on Boeing. Again, I am sure Boeing knew how long it would take to instrument the 787. They've done it for
49 Stitch : It would be spelled out in the contract and likely varies carrier to carrier and perhaps even delivery to delivery (early deliveries might have more
50 Osiris30 : As I understand it, Boeing has asked suppliers to do what they were supposed to do in the first case (i.e. do most of the stuffing themselves). Boein
51 Post contains images TeamAmerica : Doesn't work that way, CaptainX. We are all responsible for providing some basis for what we say, either with corroborating evidence or by building c
52 Ikramerica : That's how I see it, and it may also be that the suppliers are saying: "hey, we got it sorted out." They will have to get there eventually. They were
53 Bkircher : I don't understand why people are acting like this. This is the first delay that the new plane has experienced. Im sure that all of the customers want
54 TeamAmerica : Hilarious how? The suppliers contracted to supply "stuffed" sections. Boeing is pressing them to meet contractual obligations, to "step-up" as you pu
55 Texfly101 : Not objecting to your post, just adding some additional clarifying commentary from having been there. Boeing didn't offer to stuff them, the sections
56 Tdscanuck : Agreed. Keep in mind that Boeing has a pretty significant ability to add additional resources to this problem. Boeing normally runs 3 shifts in the f
57 WCS : It could be possible, providing that manpower is the key problem there. So far, we have no evidence that it is the case. Regards,
58 DAYflyer : A great explination of the problems, thanks for this post very much. I found it a refreshing and educational perspective rather than the "Boeing cant
59 Post contains links HawkerCamm : New update on http://flightblogger.blogspot.com/2007/08/tweaking-schedule.html
60 SirOmega : So I guess then starting October 9th we'll see how long it takes Boeing to put together a stuffed 787. Thats what interests me most. 3 weeks? 9 weeks?
61 TKV : " target=_blank>http://flightblogger.blogspot.com/20....html Without wanting to be confrontational. Are blogs like the above not exactly of the same c
62 HawkerCamm : Perhaps but there is a lot of respect for IAD787 and he has provided/collated a lot of good information.
63 CaptainX : Do you guys want to know how today's 787 crash test went?
64 HawkerCamm : You'll have to explain.........
65 Post contains links HawkerCamm : Got it..... 787-Crash Test http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...space/2003849110_boeingtest23.html
66 Ikramerica : This is very likely why Airbus is unable to gain the production certificate for the A380. So many of the planes were built as "one offs" after all wa
67 TKV : This is not the issue. Myself have some very interesting information on other issues which I am absolutely sure its correct, but cannot support it, a
68 TKV : But how you do know who is professional, serious and credible ?? If you accept such info from one blog, you must accept it from all, and accept posts
69 Stitch : Nothing yet. Boeing will not release detailed test results as they are considered proprietary, but if it conforms to expectations, I am sure that wil
70 Ikramerica : That is simply not true. This is the failure of modern schooling, as it advocates "equivalency of ideas" no matter where the source. We see it in the
71 Post contains images TKV : This is true. But you are forgetting a basic point: to get the evidence and experience you need to evaluate it for a adequate long time, and to be ab
72 AirframeAS : Thanks for the link, Hawker. I wished there were pics to see to get a better idea what was done specifically.
73 NADC10Fan : TKV, I plead with you not to make this a referendum between IAD787 and CaptainX. This belittles and diminishes someone who has brought with him a grea
74 Post contains images Stitch : While a number of members work in the industry in various capacities, most of us do not. Yet that doesn't mean we're clueless. I left Boeing in 2002,
75 Tdscanuck : I haven't seen any pictures, but what they did is take a 10' fuselage barrel, cut the top off (not sure how much, but above the level of the seats),
76 Post contains images TKV : Even if I am not sure how your reply above is related to my Reply 71 (as obviously in no part I was referring there to you!!) I respect and agree wit
77 TKV : I think I said it already. In no way I am comparing IAD787 with Captain X !! But please consider the following: Again: As we have no formal "credibil
78 AirframeAS : That makes much better sense. Thank you.
79 Post contains images Stitch : No we cannot. But I don't believe we should just blithely accept those kinds of attitudes and I will do my part to try to first engage them in reason
80 TKV : OK. I wholeheartedly agree with your approach, hoping that it works. I am sure many, Boeing, Airbus or both of them fans, will support you cordially
81 Post contains links CaptainX : AUGUST 27 ========= Everett: Structural, wiring and systems installation continues on Dreamliner One as it has since July 9th. At last word, the fligh
82 IAD787 : " target=_blank>http://flightblogger.blogspot.com/ I'm fighting every impulse to avoid jumping into this again, however it's worth noting that updates
83 Danny : ATI reports that Boeing will provide "comprehensive programme update" on 787 on the 5th of September. They also cite certification expert saying that
84 IAD787 : Is there a copy online?
85 Post contains images Stitch : Sir, this is airliners.net. It's all any of us do. All that matters is when LN0007 gets into NH's hands. And even then, if she's late, it really won'
86 IAD787 : Stitch, fair point. I forgot who I was talking to. Speculate away. I'll sit on the sidelines for this one.
87 Danny : Yes, sorry for a typo in my previous post, it is actually on ATI: Delivery horizon looms as 787 slips (ATI: 24Aug07, 17:18 412)
88 CaptainX : Boeing's problems have also impacted the FAAs staffing and budget plans. My experience is that if you miss the certification window they have agreed
89 Stitch : If you think the FAA is going to tell Boeing to "suck eggs and go to the back of the line", you don't understand one of the core purposes of the FAA.
90 CaptainX : That might work in production, but this is the prototype bird, and having nothing wired or installed in the cockpit other than rudder pedals at this
91 JoeCanuck : Wow...you're quite the ray of sunshine, aren't you...? You're a laugh, I gotta say that about you. With your in depth knowledge of the inner workings
92 CaptainX : 10 years ago they did it essentially all themselves, with passion. Now upper management outsourced almost all of it, and the employees are simply not
93 JoeCanuck : ...and salvage their own jobs. If this thing turns into a turkey, it's a long walk to Toulouse to look for a new gig. There's a reason that so many ma
94 DeltaDC9 : Can you back any of that up? The point of the outsourcing was not for "cheap labor". That is simply 100% wrong. It is also incorrect to imply that Bo
95 Post contains images TeamAmerica : Pretty revealing statement. You believe this is all a battle of labor vs. management, and delay of the 787 is somehow a victory for labor? Are Japan
96 EI321 : I'd be surprised is an employee at Alenia or Kawasaki earns significantly less than one in Seattle. I suspect its more about productivity, the very a
97 Stitch : It might news to you, but this is how Boeing does it for the prototypes, as well. I suspect your grossly exaggerating, by choice or by desire. Unfort
98 Post contains images Sphealey : There are people on Wall Street, LaSalle Street, City of London, Hong Kong, etc. who get paid very large sums for digging up and reporting informatio
99 Tdscanuck : What other projects do you think SACO has to work on? 99.9% of their work is supporting Boeing. Well, at least that clinches it that you don't work f
100 Baron95 : Thanks for researching and posting the numbers. You didn't factor one thing. Please add to your collumns the number of orders pending at EIS for each
101 Danny : The downside though is: if you screw up the number of delayed frames and the compensation will skyrocket.
102 Post contains images TeamAmerica : More than that - Boeing intends to assemble many more aircraft prior to EIS than we've seen before. Any issues turned up in flight test may require t
103 TKV : Possibly, this could be an indirect answer to the question filed by several members asking him who he is ?? This is a good point, EI321, especially r
104 WingedMigrator : I suppose running over budget is one of those things, and one that Boeing managers would rather avoid. From an investor standpoint, no matter how man
105 CaptainX : It's already happening. I expect Boeing to announce on Sept 5th that FF is postponed indefinitely and that a firm date for first power is also indete
106 Texfly101 : Wrong....totally wrong. I've given 150% to this project as has every other engineer and mechanic that I've worked with on this wonderful airplane. To
107 Post contains images TeamAmerica : That's impossible. I pointed out the potential liability of having built a large number of aircraft prior to EIS...they haven't even finished the fir
108 TKV : Not exactly. Only as an more or less probable example: If they have programmed $ 7 B own development costs (the balance to be supported by the suppli
109 Stitch : Well right now all we know for sure is LN0001 is in trouble. LN0002 is said to be arriving with many more systems - if not all planned systems - pre-
110 Art : I don't think that a delay in EIS of a few weeks or months would turn the 787 into a turkey. Falling seriously short of performance guarantees might
111 JayinKitsap : Isn't part of the problem installing some 6,000 fasteners with that delay. I would suspect that when things are opened up they are also installing all
112 Baron95 : That is so not true. If I am building a widebody that hsa lukewarm reception - say 100 frames on order prior to EIS, with an estimated 300 additional
113 SirOmega : Exactly my thoughts (as previously mentioned). I fully expect LN0002 to show up not far behind LN0001. Less than a month I predict. If FF is end of O
114 Post contains images WingedMigrator : hang in there. I know from personal experience (on totally unrelated aerospace products) that when deadlines loom and the job must get done, it alway
115 CaptainX : LN2 sections will arrive beginning mid-October with many systems, wiring, and hardware not yet installed. I expect some sections for LN2 to be signif
116 Stitch : Even if true, they'll still have many more then LN0001's sections had. And Boeing's people will be "up to speed" on how to stuff it, thanks to LN0001
117 DeltaDC9 : Funny how everybody and their brother criticises outsourcing but they dont understand how it works or what makes it desirable. Its all about control,
118 EI321 : I wouldn't get too fussed over guessing when the first 787 will fly. We will find out when it will or wont fly on September 5th.
119 CaptainX : Boeing would have loved to keep this project in house so that they could have control. Instead they went outside and required others to invest. As th
120 Post contains images Stitch : I happen to have worked for "outsourcing" companies for a very long time, so I do understand it. That must be why they've been spinning off business
121 Post contains images TKV : Anybody working in a large corporation manufacturing knows this: If Own Factory A has a problem with Own Factory B, Manager A complains to Manager B.
122 CaptainX : They haven't sold any. They have orders, which can be cancelled with a phone call. The 787 is a big sinkhole for Boeing and for the suppliers at this
123 WCS : As others asked before, I think it's now time to either backup your statements or move away this topic. The topic was more or less "clean" [Fanboys p
124 EI321 : Oh gives a break! The 787 has the biggest sales book of any new programme - Ever. If you want to speculate over its technical development issues, fin
125 Clickhappy : Dude, you must lead a very negative existence. There is risk with everything. But, besides that, you are totally off the deep end. You started postin
126 SEPilot : As to meeting deadlines in difficult circumstances, it is amazing what can be accomplished when the workers are behind the effort, which based on the
127 Stitch : Welp, you've expertly proven you have no idea of aerospace, period, and are just here to troll. So it's pointless to try and engage you in debate, si
128 TKV : His statement that a order can be withdrawn with a simple phone call (even if the Aircraft is near ready !)] shows a complete lack of business knowle
129 Ken777 : They have a LOT of orders and if anyone wants to cancel their slots will be filled rather fast. QF seems to be rather happy that another airline drop
130 CaptainX : Boeing has not reported any 787 revenue because orders don't generate revenue.
131 Art : CaptainX, I seem to have spent a long time living on a planet which is different to the one you live on. Why do I get that impression? In my business
132 SEPilot : Haven't you heard about deposits? For someone who claims to know what's going on your ignorance is impressive.
133 Danny : Well, in accounting language they haven't. Accrding to Boeing's 10K: "We recognize revenue on sales of commercial airplanes based on the gross amount
134 Post contains images Clickhappy : So now we are talking revenue, and not sales? Boeing gets a down payment for every order they make. That is called revenue. What's next? A statement
135 Danny : Until they deliver the airplane this is just a liability.
136 Clickhappy : Boeing has sold zero 787s. I get it! Just like exposure to Dihydrogen monoxide (DHMO) will kill you, right? Someone needs to alert the media, this is
137 CaptainX : Exactly. Just as I stated.
138 TKV : Yes, you are correct !! A firm order, backed by a valid contract, is not a sale, but cannot be reversed unless the conditions for such as stated in t
139 Clickhappy : Captain Ten, if you have to resort to book keeping gimmicks to make a point, your point isn't worth making. We all understand that in terms of account
140 Sphealey : Hint: check your Capital and Project Accounting text for the phrase "progress payment". This thread should be locked in my very humble opinion. sPh
141 CaptainX : It is good to see people finally agree that my statements were correct all along. I expect my other statements to pan out as well in time.
142 EI321 : Why do I get the feeling I have met Captain X before?
143 Post contains links EI321 : Boeing 787: Down to the wire http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...5/boeing-787-down-to-the-wire.html Not a very optimistic article from flight inter
144 TKV : This is being repeated out of context: The first assembling was a provisional one, at "fond perdue" investing a good quantity of hours only to stage
145 JayinKitsap : Thank you Clickhappy, I hope Captain Ten gets the hint. I'm sure the 787 hanger floor is near chaos right now as lots of loose ends get finished. I p
146 Kanebear : If you ran Boeing, the 777 woulda never made it out the door.
147 SEPilot : If CaptainX ran anything it would be into the ground. I have seldom seen such a negative outlook combined with total disregard of reality. Pretty amu
148 DeltaDC9 : Agreeing with yourself is worthy of a post now, please tell me you are not serious. I agree, lock this thing, it has gone off topic in a way I have n
149 TKV : But quite distracting without any substance TKV
150 Stitch : I don't know... They note that Boeing is behind schedule and is planning an ambitious certification period, but they also note that test flights nowa
151 Post contains images TeamAmerica : Hmmmm...is Boeing in a pickle? I'm just a little bit curious/suspicious as to who you really are...perhaps the reincarnation of a certain flatfish, h
152 Post contains links WINGS : Flight International also has an article regarding the progress of the 787. Boeing 787: Down to the wire. http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...5/boe
153 Post contains images Stitch : EI321 beat ya to it about ten responses up.
154 CaptainX : One week till Boeing .......
155 Texfly101 : Most definitely so...as is any new product development program. Its an expected circumstance that is being played out as it was planned. While it mig
156 Post contains images Swissy : Same with me, since I was a little boy with my dad spotting for hours at ZRH airport and since 88 I am actually working within "our" crazy industry..
157 Post contains images Stitch : Just watched Dreamlifter 2 take to the skies for CHS to pick up some more parts. No doubt she was late.
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