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Why East Europe Airlines Don´t Order 777 Or A340?  
User currently offlineDellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 1088 posts, RR: 2
Posted (13 years 11 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2296 times:

None of those airlines operate such aircrafts. why? Small traffic?

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDatamanA340 From South Korea, joined Dec 2000, 547 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (13 years 11 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2255 times:


Well, is 340 or 777 too brand-new and therefore expensive for them? Basically if they don't operate US western coast or South Africa, they don't need those aircrafts. But I expect CSA or LOT could get one of those two near future.


User currently offlineNightfly From Germany, joined Nov 2000, 212 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (13 years 11 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2250 times:

I think datamanA340 is right with LOT and CSA.

But look at Aeroflot - it´s a very east europe airline and operates 777.

Best regards and a happy new year,
nightfly


User currently offlineN-156F From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (13 years 11 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2244 times:

Simply put, most Eastern European airlines can't afford to purchase brand-spankin' new B777s and A340s. That's why you see lots of second- or third-hand B767-200/-300 and A310s in Eastern European airlines' fleets.

User currently offlineDellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 1088 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (13 years 11 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2242 times:

I expect that to happen with Malev and CSA.
Also Finnair needs to go for a replacement for its five MD-11s. Probably 4 or 5 A340-300/500.


User currently offlineJ. S. Pearson From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (13 years 11 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2244 times:

Gees, is everyone on this forum so remarkably ignorant of basic business?

How is an extraordinarily poor airline, for example East European Airlines, expected to purchase such an aircraft? Perhaps they purchase older Soviet-manufactured aircraft because they are cheaper to operate although obviously maintenance costs would probably be higher, due to the age.


User currently offlineEnglandair From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2000, 2228 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (13 years 11 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2241 times:

I think (and I'm not an expert) that Eastern European are only just beginning to come back economically after war & revolution.

However, tourism is back on the 'up' in countries such as Bulgaria & Yugoslavia (went their just before the war- the area I went to is now part of Slovenia) and several Eastern European countries are now regular destinations in travel brouchures in the United Kingdom.

Jamie.


User currently offlineJ. S. Pearson From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (13 years 11 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2234 times:

Incidentially, I suspect all such airlines are operating at a remarkably high loss. I wouldn't even like to think about their accounts.

User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (13 years 11 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2235 times:

I think it is you who is ignorant if you thing that all eastern European airlines are poor. The fact is that the company feels it is not required. LOT for example had orders for two 777's but differed them because they did not need the plane, they do not serve LA or SYD so why have the plane...The 767 is the perfect aircraft for that reagion as it provides perfect range and capacity for the companies routs. I think that now that these airlines are joining the bigger Alliances you may see some orders for larger planes as the companies want to expand their rout network.

But please don't generalize like that yes they may not be as well off as Germany or France but they are not poor.



"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineCrosswind From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 2601 posts, RR: 58
Reply 9, posted (13 years 11 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2233 times:
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No Eastern European airlines fly the 777/A340 for some very simple reasons;
- The aircraft are far larger than they require
- They only have limited long-haul networks
- They do not have any flights that require ultra long-range aircraft

In summary, there is no reason for them to spend money buying an aircraft they don't need in order to fly it half-empty for 11 hours and lose money in the process.

Eastern European airlines' networks are far better suited by aircraft like the B767 and A310, which have lower ownership costs and capacity, which allow the airlines to keep a check on capacity, while still offering reasonable frequencies.

"Newness" has nothing to do with it, Malev, CSA and LOT all took delivery of their A310s and B767s new when they were the latest long-haul types in the late 1980s/early 1990s.

If Eastern European airlines were to re-equip it would be with B767-300/-400 aircraft or the competing A330-200, providing only a small capacity increase in capacity, but at a lower price than the A340/B777.

Also, it is a mistake to think Eastern European airlines are poverty-stricken, they actually in general have more modern fleets than their Western European neighbours in many cases;

MALEV
F70, B737-2/3/4/500, TU-154, B767-200
CSA
ATR42, ATR72, B737-4/500, A310-300
LOT
ATR-72, ERJ-145, B737-3/4/5/800, B767-2/300
ADRIA
CRJ-200, A320
UKRAINE INTERNATIONAL
B737-2/300
TAROM
ATR-42, B737-3/5/7/800, A310-300
CROATIA AIRLINES
ATR-42, A319, A320


User currently offlineDellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 1088 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (13 years 11 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2229 times:

I agree with Slawko. Prague and Budapest are top destinations in Eastern Europe and will recieve tones of tourists next summer (July). As CSA and other airlines join alliances like Star, OneWorld, Skyteam and Qualiflyer we can expect some changes in their fleets. New routes will be created, and for those needs new aircrafts such as A340/A330 and 777 will be serving those carriers.



User currently offlineJ. S. Pearson From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (13 years 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2225 times:

Slawko and Dellatorre.

I agree with your views totally. LOT and Malev are both incredibly suprising airlines, and perhaps able to acquire and successfully operate the 777 and 340. However, I was referring to the "true" Eastern Europe and Russia, which is still somewhat out-of-date and unable to operate such aircraft. This situation is familar throughout the world, particularly CIS and Africa.



User currently offlineDellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 1088 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (13 years 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2217 times:

What do you mean by CIS???

User currently offlineJ. S. Pearson From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (13 years 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2212 times:

CIS = Commonwealth Independant States, thus Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan etc. are all in the CIS.

User currently offlineLOT767-300ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (13 years 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2233 times:

LOT is looking at B767-400ER thats the plane that suites them best now or a 777-300, i dont know why their not buying yet. Maybe cuz they just bought ERJ-145 and are still waiting for two more.

User currently offlineJAT From Canada, joined Feb 2000, 1101 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (13 years 11 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2206 times:

As far as capacity is concerned I think filling the plane also depends on the season. A lot of immigrants travel back to their homelands during the summer and Christmas and LOT, CSA or MALEV could fill s B777 or A340 during these seasons. Smaller capacity, 767-200 or -300 are best suited for the rest of the year.

JAT has a 271 seat DC-10 and they have just leased another 2 and are planning on resuming flights to North America. In a few years these will need to be replaced, I wonder what they will get? My guess is A330 since they already have A319's on order.


User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (13 years 11 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2208 times:

Granted the CIS state for the most part have a way to go before they are on par with the likes of Poland and Hungary. Most like Ukraine are 8-14 years behind Poland. But that does not mean their airlines only buy soviet built planes...and Ukraine International is a perfect example of that, they started with the 737-400 then they got the 737-200/737-300 and have a 737-700 on order. granted these are small orders but non the less they are steps towards integration with the west. Uzbekistand Airlines flies the RJ85 767-300ER A310 and 757, all purchased within the last 6-7 years. Turkmenistan AIrlines fly the 757, Lithuanian flies the 737, as does Estonian. Infact the CIS nations for the most part are even better off the Russia as they have less people and are usually rich in resources like coal and oil, so in turn there is a lot of business going on there, and their airlines are doing quite well.


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineN-156F From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (13 years 11 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2190 times:

Slawko, I certainly wasn't trying to generalize the entire bunch of Eastern European airlines with my comments. I realize that LOT, Malev, and CSA (among others) are now making a decent profit and could afford them. I was referring more to airlines like Croatia and Estonian, which (as far as I know, though I might be off) are having a hard time flying B737s, turboprops, and some older ex-Soviet equipment. Just clearing that up.

User currently offlineDatamanA340 From South Korea, joined Dec 2000, 547 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (13 years 11 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2187 times:

If you can get 2 more daily flight slots at great destination like Paris or Berlin and it doesn't cost much, which will you choose? 3 daily Prague-Paris by 777 or 5 daily by 767? I don't think there can be so many flights served profitably for E.European carriers, so it's better to add slots than bigger a/cs. 310, just fits than 330 or 777. (340 is basically only long-hauler, different from 777.)

J.S.: I don't like such a word 'ignorant', especially if it's with 'remarkably'. We're talking about 'all' the E. European carriers, not just poor ones what you said 'true'.
Nightfly: Eh? Russia? I forgot   But it's operating 777 now! (And it's also operating over Asian section.)
Dellatorre: I think Finnair is in NORTHERN Europe. If it's wrong, Finnair will be 2nd airliner who operates 777 (followed to Aeroflot.) or 1st for 340 in E.Europe.
Crosswind: Newness matters. If you're in board of airliner, will you buy a brand-new 310 with the same price with 767 because both have almost same capacity? Lately launched one must be usually expensive.


User currently offlineJAT From Canada, joined Feb 2000, 1101 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (13 years 11 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2174 times:

N-156F, I do not know about Estonian but I am pretty sure Croatian is doing pretty well. They never had any Soviet type. They did have older 737-200's but they retired those as soon as the A-319's arrived. They now operate 4 A-319's, 3 A-320's and 3 ATR 42's. Also, judging by the fact that on their website they are advertising open job spaces I don't think they are doing bad at all.

User currently offlineDellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 1088 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (13 years 11 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2175 times:

Of course Finland is in Northen Europe!!!!! It was just a example.
Anyway, I think we should not take things here for guarenteed!! Most of peolpe in this Forum don´t know the exact situation happening in these areas, i consider this topic only informative not a argument of who is poor or not.


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