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RE: B6 To Announce 3 New Cities From FLL Later Today  
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32628 posts, RR: 72
Posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4703 times:

It has never been said that MIA and FLL are different markets. They aren't. Miami handles the bulk of local international traffic while more than half of the domestic traffic coming to Miami goes to Lauderdale. They are the same exact market and AA does care. Do they care enough to expand? No. They are to busy fighting with Spirit right now. They already have a daily Richmond flight from Miami as well as six daily Charlotte flights and three daily 738s to Raleigh.


a.
13 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17369 posts, RR: 46
Reply 1, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4649 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
Do they care enough to expand?

They just added quite a bit today to MIA (and DFWPTY and ORDEZE) as a matter of fact Smile



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinePRAirbus From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2005, 1131 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4506 times:

When is AA starting DFW-PTY????? Haven't heard anything...AA flew that route some years ago for a while on 727-200s.

User currently offlineCitrusCritter From Pitcairn Islands, joined May 2007, 1093 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4404 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
It has never been said that MIA and FLL are different markets. They aren't.

Rubbish. That's like saying IAD and BWI are not separate markets because people in that region can reasonably use either of them (or DCA for that matter). They are separate markets, even if they have overlap. There are some people who will drive to FLL from Miami-Dade for a cheaper flight, and there are some that will drive to MIA for a intl flight or another flight not offered direct from FLL. But to claim that they are one united market is not accurate.

The same analogy IAD-DCA-BWI could also be applied as MKE-ORD-MDW. People may drive from MKE to MDW to get a cheaper flight, but it doesn't mean that MKE is not a unique market. Ft. Lauderdale-Broward County is plenty sizeable enough to count as its own market, as is Miami-Dade. They overlap, but they are separate markets, especially when you consider Palm Beach County for PBI.



TLH
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32628 posts, RR: 72
Reply 4, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4249 times:

It's not rubbish at all. If it were not for the fact that nearly half of the traffic at Fort Laudedale goes to Miami then they could be seperate markets. Try telling someone in an airline's route network office that they are different markets and you'll be laughed at.


a.
User currently offlineCitrusCritter From Pitcairn Islands, joined May 2007, 1093 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4168 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):

The same situation essentially occurs in Washington-Baltimore. BWI traffic will go to DCA or IAD to get a direct flight or an international flight. IAD/DCA traffic will go to BWI for a lower fare. It's very similar to FLL/MIA, but there's positively no way Washington and Baltimore are the same market. In fact, Dulles has its own market separate from DCA. There may be a lot of bleed (again, the MKE example), but it is possible to serve both FLL and MIA without gutting your own business. Both airports have catchement areas of sufficent size to support most duplication of service. If the airports' service offerings were similar, you would see much less bleed. As is, MIA is the n/s and intl airport, whilst FLL is primarily LCC oriented. That is why there is bleed in both directions.



TLH
User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6533 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4151 times:

I would never consider cities roughly 25 miles apart to be "seperate markets". Both markets feed off of each other to an extent. PBI is a seperate market, as traffic there is much more seasonal.

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32628 posts, RR: 72
Reply 7, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4013 times:

Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 5):
The same situation essentially occurs in Washington-Baltimore. BWI traffic will go to DCA or IAD to get a direct flight or an international flight. IAD/DCA traffic will go to BWI for a lower fare. It's very similar to FLL/MIA, but there's positively no way Washington and Baltimore are the same market. In fact, Dulles has its own market separate from DCA. There may be a lot of bleed (again, the MKE example), but it is possible to serve both FLL and MIA without gutting your own business. Both airports have catchement areas of sufficent size to support most duplication of service. If the airports' service offerings were similar, you would see much less bleed. As is, MIA is the n/s and intl airport, whilst FLL is primarily LCC oriented. That is why there is bleed in both directions.

While I agree with your assessment, I don't see how that necessarily means that MIA and FLL are separate markets. Washington/Baltimore and Miami/Fort Lauderdale are not comparable. Baltimore is independent of Washington in just about every way, such as media markets. Fort Lauderdale is not that independent of Miami.



a.
User currently offlineSflaflight From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1183 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks ago) and read 3876 times:

Absolutely, there is a big difference in saying that IAD and BWI are the same market than saying FLL and MIA are the same market. The first pair are at 63.1 miles apart. That is a huge significance. The latter are 29 miles apart. That is very close. I can't understand how people (many who don't live in this area) are so adamant about saying they are different markets. Miami and Fort Lauderdale listen to the same radio stations, watch the same television stations and read the same newspapers. Some people within the boundary of Miami-Dade county are closer to FLL than they are to MIA. I am sorry, but to me it constitutes the same market. If you said MIA and PBI, then I would agree to the philosophy of two markets, but MIA and FLL, no way!

PS = As a matter of fact, I'm heading down to South Beach to go clubbing tonight from Fort Lauderdale. I guess it'll be partying in another market?

JFK = EWR 31.6 miles (tell CO they aren't serving NYC)
MDW = ORD 28.8 miles (are these separate markets?)
LAX = LGB 20.9 miles (still in the same county)
LAX = BUR 37.8 miles (still in the same county)

ORD = MKE 73.3 miles (stretching it maybe)


User currently offlineHiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2167 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3624 times:

As far as airline passengers are concerned the poor management and lack of fiscal responsibility at MIA has made FLL and MIA two different markets....absolutely.

Lower fares, infrastructure costs, superior planning, and competition at FLL are drawing pax from the Keys to Jupiter and west to Naples drawing not only from high priced MIA but PBI and RSW as well....although population booms in PBI and RSW help counteract that loss short term.

The airlines fully recognize this as more and more carriers and flights are added to the FLL market while there are rows of open gates at MIA....despite MIA's poor attempts at enticement of these carriers. FLL sees even intl pax come thru there with connects at another us gateway to get to Europe rather than going to MIA for a nonstop...and they make no bones telling you all about it either.

If it was the same market AA would be fighting Spirit on the same airport...not 30 miles away...but AA has no real comp at MIA left now...it's long gone as shown in those rows of open gates....

The absolute best PR for FLL is any article on woes at MIA....and those reports keep coming and coming....making the market distinction between the two airports more pronounced daily.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32628 posts, RR: 72
Reply 10, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3541 times:

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 9):
If it was the same market AA would be fighting Spirit on the same airport...

Then I guess AA is flying FLL-SJO and FLL-SDQ because it's not the same market?



a.
User currently offlineSflaflight From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1183 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3469 times:

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 9):
If it was the same market AA would be fighting Spirit on the same airport...not 30 miles away...but AA has no real comp at MIA left now...it's long gone as shown in those rows of open gates....

AA is fighting Spirit because it is THE same market. If it were a different market, AA wouldn't give a rats ass about NK. AA is very worried about keeping NK in check because it is the same market.


User currently offlineCitrusCritter From Pitcairn Islands, joined May 2007, 1093 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3433 times:

Quoting Sflaflight (Reply 11):
AA is fighting Spirit because it is THE same market. If it were a different market, AA wouldn't give a rats ass about NK. AA is very worried about keeping NK in check because it is the same market.

No, they are overlapping markets. The pure size of Fort Lauderdale/Broward County creates a market. AA will fight them out of MIA because the market overlaps and because that overlapping market is only of a certain size. It's a very roundabout argument.

Quoting Sflaflight (Reply 8):
Absolutely, there is a big difference in saying that IAD and BWI are the same market than saying FLL and MIA are the same market. The first pair are at 63.1 miles apart.

Washington and Baltimore are just 40 miles apart. The fact that IAD is in the sticks does not preclude many from using it because of the n/s available that are not at DCA and BWI. IAD and BWI are accessible to persons living in both metro areas by virtue of the major thoroughfares servicing both. Additionally, any argument about the location of the airports or cities proper is ignoring the size of the suburban areas in and around both. Further, if I just change my example to DCA and BWI, then the mileage is much closer. Baltimore-Washington is much the same as Fort Lauderdale-Miami. It's not quite as continuous -- South Florida is just a solid block of concrete from Palm Beach south, but is very nearly, when the suburbs are counted. This is a very analogous situation. The simple fact that South Florida is that neverending piece of concrete doesn't mean that there are not market separations. If FLL and MIA offered the same flights and amenities, you would see this market separation. Instead, just like IAD/BWI or DCA/BWI, there are clear differences in what each airport offers, which is why there is such a market overlap.



TLH
User currently offlineSflaflight From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1183 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3382 times:

Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 12):
Further, if I just change my example to DCA and BWI, then the mileage is much closer

Agree though. I'm one who considers DCA-BWI the same market as well. You point is valid. I also consider HPN and LGA the same market. No concrete there like South Florida, but the same market none the less. Hey, I rented a car from HPN and drove to EWR to pick friends up from Europe to drive around NY state and Ontario. Saved over 350.00 for the weeks rental that way. Sure worth the extra 1 hour drive up and back down!


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