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Question Regarding Air France-KLM In The Gulf  
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5869 posts, RR: 4
Posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4136 times:

Can anyone explain why one is more popular over the other, I would have imagiend AF to be serving more places than KL with KL Cargo doing better, but its the other way around with AF Cargo serving more places.

KLM are serving:

Kuwait
Bahrain
Dammam
Doha
Abu Dhbai
Dubai

Muscat restarts in December, all are with A332 except Dubai which is 777, where as KLM Cargo only serve Dubai.

Air France are serving:

Dubai
Jeddah
Riyadh

latter two with A319LR, Dubai with A332/772, where as AF Cargo serve Kuwait, Bahrain, Jeddah, Dammam, Dubai and Abu Dhabi.

8 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4900 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4091 times:

My guess: QR, EK, EY do not serve AMS but all of them have cargo ops to AMS so maybe there is overcapacity/too much competition to AMS. Additionally none of the 3 big gulf carriers have regularly scheduled cargo ops to France.

Makes sense.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7415 posts, RR: 57
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4073 times:

Quoting YOWza (Reply 1):
My guess: QR, EK, EY do not serve AMS

Not really, as QR, EK, EY are "only" feeding their hub from CDG with most passengers continuing their journey toward South east Asia / Australia.


In the early 90s, when Air France was struggling to survive, AF was serving much more cities in the Gulf :
JED, RUH, BAH, AUH, DOH, MCT, SHJ, ADE, SAH, BGW, KWI, THR ...

Most of those destinations were stopped as part of the "recovery" plan launched in 1993. With finally AUH, KWI and THR closed in 1997/98, leaving only DXB, RUH, and JED served in the early 90s.

AF tried to re-launch DOH and KWI with the A319ER and they were quite successful but after AF and KL merged it was decided that KLM only would be in charge of those destinations : there was no more reason for AF and KL to compete on the same market with the risk for both to lose money now that KLM was belonging to AF.
In counterpart AF took over some KLM's West African destinations like DLA, ABJ, SSG.


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5869 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4033 times:

By Gulf I only meant Gulf Arab states of GCC not Iraq, Iran and Yemen.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 2):
With finally AUH, KWI and THR closed in 1997/98

Tehran has been resumed since.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 2):
MCT, SHJ

Didnt know they served these.


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7415 posts, RR: 57
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3997 times:

MCT and BAH were initially UTA's destinations, until UTA was merged into AF.

SHJ was served with Airbus A300 until the late 80s/early 90s, along with DHA (I forgot DHA in the list of my reply # 2.)


User currently offlineMH017 From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 1692 posts, RR: 30
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3935 times:

Quoting YOWza (Reply 1):
EY do not serve AMS but all of them have cargo ops to AMS

EY does not have passenger- and cargo flights into AMS (wish they had  Smile ), so all stated here is not correct !

Indeed, when AF and KL merged, one of the two gained and the other lost some Gulf destinations...however, the combined group destinations total 10 !



don't throw away tomorrow !
User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4900 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3880 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 2):

Not really, as QR, EK, EY are "only" feeding their hub from CDG with most passengers continuing their journey toward South east Asia / Australia.

I don't understand your point? Sure they are feeding their hubs but they are doing this PAX flights to CDG whereas AMS sees dedicated cargo service only so it makes less sense for KL cargo to have heavy ops from AMS to the GCC...

Correction: EY Crystal Cargo does not serve AMS but QR Cargo and EK Cargo does.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5869 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3697 times:

The other Dutch carrier Martinair Cargo seem to be compensating for KL Cargo in the Gulf, they serve Kuwait, Bahrain, Doha, Dammam, Sharjah and Muscat.

Martinair will also be starting passenger service to Muscat with a 763 from November according to Wikipedia, is that why KLM are resuming the route?


User currently offlineHECA From Netherlands, joined Apr 2007, 232 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3651 times:
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Quoting 777way (Reply 7):
Martinair will also be starting passenger service to Muscat with a 763 from November according to Wikipedia, is that why KLM are resuming the route?

MP is indeed starting Muscat, flights will continue to Phuket in Thailand. Oman is gaining interest as a holiday destination. The MP flights are (heavily) focused on leisure travelers/tourists while KL mainly targets the business travelers. I believe both airlines have different goals in opening the AMS-MCT route but it is nice to see such Dutch interest in serving MCT with passenger flights.


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