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AA Eagle: More New NY Routes And Other Changes  
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11752 posts, RR: 62
Posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6680 times:

Well, the new routes just keep on coming for AA/Eagle in the New York area.

Following on the huge success of the one-off Eagle flights from JFK to cities in the northeast connecting to Europe flights (CLE, BWI, etc.), Eagle will be launching a once-daily flight from JFK to PIT with EMB145s:

Flights begin 13 December 2007:

AA4314 PIT 1450 JFK 1615 EM4
AA4315 JFK 1655 PIT 1830 EM4

Also from New York, but this time LaGuardia, Eagle will be launching 3x daily (2x weekends) EMB135 flights to Montreal, complimenting the long-standing 4x daily Eagle flights from JFK to Montreal:

Flights begin 13 December 2007:

AA4916 JFK 0645 YUL 0810 EM3 (xSun)
AA4920 JFK 1410 YUL 1540 EM3
AA4908 JFK 1805 YUL 1935 EM3

AA4917 YUL 0845 JFK 1015 EM3
AA4921 YUL 1615 JFK 1755 EM3
AA4907 YUL 2010 JFK 2145 EM3 (xSat)

Finally, totally unrelated to New York, Eagle will also be shifting its Marquette, Michigan (MQT) schedule, by shifting one of its two one-stop flights to ORD to route via MKE instead of MSN:

Flights shift from MSN to MKE from 13 December 2007:

AA4104 MQT 0715 MKE 0715 0740 ORD 0835 EM4 (xSat)
AA4096 ORD 1840 MKE 1930 2000 MQT 2208 EM4 (xSat)

(The daily weekly through-flight via GRR will remain, as will the 6x weekly nonstop to ORD.)

31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHPAEAA From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6651 times:

Quoting Commavia (Thread starter):
Following on the huge success of the one-off Eagle flights from JFK to cities in the northeast connecting to Europe flights (CLE, BWI, etc.), Eagle will be launching a once-daily flight from JFK to PIT with EMB145s:

Flights begin 13 December 2007:

AA4314 PIT 1450 JFK 1615 EM4



Quoting Commavia (Thread starter):
Also from New York, but this time LaGuardia, Eagle will be launching 3x daily (2x weekends) EMB135 flights to Montreal, complimenting the long-standing 4x daily Eagle flights from JFK to Montreal:

Flights begin 13 December 2007:

AA4916 JFK 0645 YUL 0810 EM3 (xSun)
AA4920 JFK 1410 YUL 1540 EM3
AA4908 JFK 1805 YUL 1935 EM3

AA4917 YUL 0845 JFK 1015 EM3
AA4921 YUL 1615 JFK 1755 EM3
AA4907 YUL 2010 JFK 2145 EM3 (xSat)

Glad to hear the new nonstops on MQ, admittedly, I was hoping for another JFK CLE, I love the new terminal, and would rather fly from there vs LGA...



Why do I fly???
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11752 posts, RR: 62
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6453 times:

Quoting HPAEAA (Reply 1):
I was hoping for another JFK CLE, I love the new terminal, and would rather fly from there vs LGA...

It should be interesting to see which other Midwest/Mid-Atlantic/Northeast markets might get one-off flights to JFK to connect with the Europe flights. I could easily see Columbus, Detroit, Philadelphia, and even Hartford, among others, getting these once-daily ERJ flights to JFK timed to arrive around 1500-1600 and depart around 1600-1700. Smart utilization of resources on AA's part to utilize the planes in afternoon off-hours, and provide some extra feed to the growing list of Euro markets served from JFK.


User currently offlineRcardinale From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 190 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6333 times:

Good idea on AE's part but more rj's at JFK will make the situation there even worse.

User currently offlineMke717spotter From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2458 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6289 times:

Quoting Commavia (Thread starter):
Finally, totally unrelated to New York, Eagle will also be shifting its Marquette, Michigan (MQT) schedule, by shifting one of its two one-stop flights to ORD to route via MKE instead of MSN:

Why does MQ route that flight through MSN and now MKE? Is there really enough demand for it because it seems like a bit of an odd route.



Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
User currently offlineSkyyMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6200 times:

I can't help but find these new routes somewhat hypocritical given Mr. Arpey's comments this past week that there should be voluntary cutbacks by airlines at JFK to help alleviate congestion. While criticizing rapid growth by certain airlines at JFK and other NYC area airport without naming names, it did not take someone with an MBA to know whom he was talking about. This has been bounced around in other threads, but IMO - if you complain about airport/airspace congestion in New York, you don't keep adding flights while implying your competitors are the ones causing and adding to the problems.

User currently offlineATLAaron From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1023 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6169 times:

Quoting Commavia (Thread starter):
Eagle will be launching a once-daily flight from JFK to PIT with EMB145s

This COULD be the hump that broke the camel's (B6) back in PIT. I don't know of AA having much loyalty in PIT but they have enough in NYC to pull away just enough passengers for B6 to say "enough".


User currently offlineXlpants From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 55 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6169 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 2):
Smart utilization of resources on AA's part to utilize the planes in afternoon off-hours

Afternoon off-hours?? Since when is anytime these flights are flying off-hours? AA is spending planes to do this. The real question is what they are doing with the rest of the day. Those are the true off-hours!


User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6145 times:

Does DL still fly YUL-LGA? I thought right now only AC does.

User currently offlineAA767LOVER From Hong Kong, joined Aug 2007, 609 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6145 times:

If i am just making a connection through NYC, I would much prefer JFK. LGA is a necessary evil. I find it even more convenient taking the free airtrain to Jamaica station and then LIRR to Penn Station if I want to be in midtown Manhattan, by going out of JFK. Both EWR and JFK are MUCH more desirable than flying into or out of LGA. Port Authority does a great job of new concessions in these two airports. LGA is overburdened basically.


J.I. Tsui, American Advantage Member, United Mileage Plus (Premier)
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11752 posts, RR: 62
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6122 times:

Quoting Mke717spotter (Reply 4):
Why does MQ route that flight through MSN and now MKE? Is there really enough demand for it because it seems like a bit of an odd route.

No, there isn't enough demand, which is precisely why these flights route through other cities. Eagle couldn't fill three RJs per day to MQT if they tried. There just isn't anywhere close to that amount of demand. But, as Eagle needs the planes up in MQT for maintenance anyway, they figured they might as well fly some people up there with them. But, rather than just flying said three nearly-empty ERJs from ORD right up to MQT, they stop them in GRR and MKE (soon to be, formerly MSN) to pick up and drop off some people, so at least the plane is fairly full for half the route up to MQT.

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 5):
I can't help but find these new routes somewhat hypocritical given Mr. Arpey's comments this past week that there should be voluntary cutbacks by airlines at JFK to help alleviate congestion.

Eagle is adding one daily ERJ at PIT, which leaves at 1655, before the really busy evening eastbound departure rush really even kicks in heavily.

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 5):
if you complain about airport/airspace congestion in New York, you don't keep adding flights while implying your competitors are the ones causing and adding to the problems.

AA, in the last several years, has added a grand total of probably (net) 25 flights to its New York schedule -- that includes all airports: JFK, LGA and EWR. In that same time, Delta has probably added almost 100, same with JetBlue. Honestly, while I definitely think AA should be prudent with adding capacity into this already-saturated ATC environment, not just to save face but because of the practical realities that Arpey's comments touched on, it really is ridiculous to compare AA's New York "expansion" to Delta or JetBlue, both of whom have had double-digit flight operation growths year-on-year for several of the last few years.

Quoting Xlpants (Reply 7):
Afternoon off-hours?? Since when is anytime these flights are flying off-hours? AA is spending planes to do this. The real question is what they are doing with the rest of the day. Those are the true off-hours!

What I meant was that, for example, in the case of PIT, the plane can come in from ORD at the peak mid-day rush (departing ORD at 1200 and meeting all the morning eastbounds from the west coast), go to JFK and come back, and then head back to ORD at the peak evening period, leaving PIT at 1855 and getting into ORD at 1945, right in time for the last flights of the night out west. Otherwise, the plane would have been leaving PIT and the less-desirable 1500 period to head back to ORD, when there is less demand and fewer connections to be had.


User currently offlineATLAaron From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1023 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6113 times:

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 8):
Does DL still fly YUL-LGA? I thought right now only AC does.

You are correct DL only flies to YUL out of JFK.


User currently offlineMke717spotter From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2458 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5977 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 10):

I guess that makes sense since I also forgot that YX is ending their MKE-MQT service.



Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
User currently offlineSkyyMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5954 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 10):
AA, in the last several years, has added a grand total of probably (net) 25 flights to its New York schedule -- that includes all airports: JFK, LGA and EWR. In that same time, Delta has probably added almost 100, same with JetBlue. Honestly, while I definitely think AA should be prudent with adding capacity into this already-saturated ATC environment, not just to save face but because of the practical realities that Arpey's comments touched on, it really is ridiculous to compare AA's New York "expansion" to Delta or JetBlue, both of whom have had double-digit flight operation growths year-on-year for several of the last few years.

My post is not meant to "compare" anyone particular carrier's expansion versus another's.You are quite correct that DL and B6 have grown JFK at a much faster rate. Still, you still do not stand up and criticize your competition for creating more congestion and then add flights yourself. If these flights had been announced, along with selected reductions in other markets, particularly out of LGA which uses the same airspace, I can accept that. I realize AA has always been more conservative about it's expansion and that it could be conceived as not being as responsible for the mess as others, but don't call someone out unless your own company is willing to make the same sacrifices. IMO, nobody is going to make "voluntary" cuts because they feel it would put them at a competitive disadvantage. If anything, I would expect a cumulative increase in the number of flights in the next year. So what is the breaking point? Does anyone want to see the government step in and make ALL NYC area airports slot controlled? Then the airlines would all be screaming in the other direction. There's not a real simple solution whichever side of the fence you sit on.


User currently offlineElmothehobo From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1545 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5645 times:

Where did they get the slots to fly the LGA-YUL route, or are slot restrictions being removed in 2008?

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 13):
Still, you still do not stand up and criticize your competition for creating more congestion and then add flights yourself.

He's really not going to pass up the opportunity to make money for his airline just to save face. This is Mr. Arpey, not Sir Branson.

Quoting Mke717spotter (Reply 12):
I guess that makes sense since I also forgot that YX is ending their MKE-MQT service.

I wonder if Eagle is going to get anymore EAS money by starting MKE-MQT.


User currently offlineN670UW From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1605 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 5476 times:

Quoting ATLAaron (Reply 6):
This COULD be the hump that broke the camel's (B6) back in PIT. I don't know of AA having much loyalty in PIT but they have enough in NYC to pull away just enough passengers for B6 to say "enough".

I don't know about that. It's only one regional jet, and it's timed to attract Europe-bound passengers that are only connecting at JFK. Plus, things seem to have improved a good bit at PIT for JetBlue, in terms of loads and yields.


User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5232 times:

Quoting N670UW (Reply 15):
It's only one regional jet, and it's timed to attract Europe-bound passengers that are only connecting at JFK.

Yeah this seems more to be looking for connectors to Europe than for O&D. B6 doesn't fly to Europe, and I don't believe they interline with AA's JFK Euro flights either.

I wonder how many of these RJ's to NYC out of PIT could be eliminated with a Trans-Atlantic from PIT though?  scratchchin 


User currently offlineSkyyMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5210 times:

Quoting Elmothehobo (Reply 14):
He's really not going to pass up the opportunity to make money for his airline just to save face. This is Mr. Arpey, not Sir Branson.

Certainly he has that right and duty as CEO, but he should stop complaining about airport congestion if he isn't willing to be part of the solution.


User currently offlineHPAEAA From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5189 times:

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 17):
Certainly he has that right and duty as CEO, but he should stop complaining about airport congestion if he isn't willing to be part of the solution.

has anyone looked to see if these flights are being reallocated from another desinations out of JFK? it could be new destinations on flat capacity or Net take offs..



Why do I fly???
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7659 posts, RR: 27
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4925 times:

Quoting Elmothehobo (Reply 14):
I wonder if Eagle is going to get anymore EAS money by starting MKE-MQT.

MQT is not an EAS airport. They have NW Airlink (Mesaba) service to DTW & MSP. YX recently announced they are pulling out of MQT.

American Eagle has an ERJ maintenance facility in MQT, hence why they fly into the airport. Its pretty safe to say that if they did not have that facility up there, they would not be flying into MQT, because it is a very small market and not worth sacrificing ORD slot on, which is why they have 2 one-stops, and only 1 non-stop out of ORD, all in the evening.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11752 posts, RR: 62
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4545 times:

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 17):
Certainly he has that right and duty as CEO, but he should stop complaining about airport congestion if he isn't willing to be part of the solution.

I think AA and UA have both proven quite conclusively that they are willing to be very much a part of the solution at O'Hare: both them voluntarily reduced their schedules by 10%+ there to ease congestion, only to watch their competitors come in and add flights to their schedule.

Quoting HPAEAA (Reply 18):
has anyone looked to see if these flights are being reallocated from another desinations out of JFK? it could be new destinations on flat capacity or Net take offs..

In the case of the JFK-PIT flight, this looks like a net new arrival/departure. LGA, however, has very limited slot capacity, and thus those 3 YUL slots had to come from someplace.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 19):
American Eagle has an ERJ maintenance facility in MQT, hence why they fly into the airport. Its pretty safe to say that if they did not have that facility up there, they would not be flying into MQT, because it is a very small market and not worth sacrificing ORD slot on, which is why they have 2 one-stops, and only 1 non-stop out of ORD, all in the evening.

Exactly. MQT would never get Eagle service, RJ service no less, if not for the maintenance base at Sawyer. Indeed, Eagle has had a huge maintenance base in northern Michigan (the other is in Abilene, Texas) for years -- going back at least into the 1990s and I believe actually even into the late 1980s. However, even though Eagle has been maintaining ATRs and other planes there for years and years, Eagle has only flown there with revenue service for the last few years. The reason? As PSU said -- the market is very small, with very weak demand. Eagle and NW will handle the market quite easily without YX to MKE.


User currently offlineFlyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1178 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4502 times:

AE currently operates 4x daily it appears from JFK-YUL, are these going to be new additional routes? Or are they reducing to 3x daily?


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User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11752 posts, RR: 62
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4489 times:

Quoting Flyby519 (Reply 21):
AE currently operates 4x daily it appears from JFK-YUL, are these going to be new additional routes? Or are they reducing to 3x daily?

Based on what AA has in the schedules as of now, it looks like JFK-YUL will remain as 4x daily with ERJs, although it looks like all 4 with now be operated with 37-seat EMB135s, whereas in the past maybe 1 or 2 of the 4 daily JFK-YUL flights have usually operated with either a 44-seat EMB140 or 50-seat EMB145. So, starting in December, AA will now have a total of 7 37-seat EMB135 flights from NY to Montreal.


User currently offlineSkyyMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4474 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 20):
I think AA and UA have both proven quite conclusively that they are willing to be very much a part of the solution at O'Hare: both them voluntarily reduced their schedules by 10%+ there to ease congestion, only to watch their competitors come in and add flights to their schedule.

I agree, but realistically, no one is a serious threat to either airline at ORD. NYC airports are entirely different. As I recently stated in another thread, does the RDU market really need 45 weekday nonstops from the three NYC airports, all but 8 or 9 of which are 50 seats or less (most less)? I've made another argument elsewhere that pax demand frequency, so in essence, I have both contradicted myself AND answered my own question. (I'm soooo confused!) However, that does not mean it works. I actually believe Arpey is spot on when he talks about the need to reduce the number of overall flights in that airspace, yet I do see why AA is adding flights to keep from being put at a competitive disadvantage. However, it still does not address the underlying congestion problem. I just cannot see any of the major players at JFK blinking first and announcing flight reductions and expecting others to follow suit. It's sort of like when some airlines try to raise airfares. It seems logical to the one doing it until no one else follows suit, and the increases are rescinded. If New York has a bad winter and spring '08, I believe the feds are going to do something along the lines of mandatory cuts or restrictions, which will make no one happy.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11752 posts, RR: 62
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4462 times:

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 23):
I've made another argument elsewhere that pax demand frequency, so in essence, I have both contradicted myself AND answered my own question.

Well, you have indeed answered your own question, but it doesn't make the answer any easier to bare!

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 23):
(I'm soooo confused!)

Aren't we all!  Smile

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 23):
I actually believe Arpey is spot on when he talks about the need to reduce the number of overall flights in that airspace, yet I do see why AA is adding flights to keep from being put at a competitive disadvantage. However, it still does not address the underlying congestion problem. I just cannot see any of the major players at JFK blinking first and announcing flight reductions and expecting others to follow suit.

The fundamental problem: nobody wants to blink first.

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 23):
It's sort of like when some airlines try to raise airfares.

Exactly: everyone is happy to go along, once one guy has stuck his neck out and taken the first step.

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 23):
If New York has a bad winter and spring '08, I believe the feds are going to do something along the lines of mandatory cuts or restrictions, which will make no one happy.

I think a good compromise would be congestion pricing: don't necessarily penalize airlines (or their passengers) for traveling at peak times, but if people do insist on traveling at those times when resources are most constrained, they need to pay for it. It's all about the value that people place on specific products: if a 5pm product on Friday night out of JFK is more valuable to a customer than, say, 10am on Tuesday, than there is definitely a price for that, just as -- in a free market -- everything carries a price based on its relative value to the market.


25 ERJ170 : I agree with you there. RDU does not need 45 daily flights. So now the question is, what DOES RDU need? Well, jetBlue has it about right. US Airways
26 Post contains images SkyyMaster : This makes sense, something I've never considered. After making my previous post, I just read through the entire AOPA thread - talk about hostile! It
27 ElmoTheHobo : It sure does. As long business travel requires high frequency service, there will be demand for 45 daily flights between NYC and Raleigh. Taking away
28 Post contains images SkyyMaster : I understand what you are saying, and I just threw this particular city pair out as an example. The same case can be made for pretty much all routes.
29 Tornado82 : No. If the flights were running on time it would be one thing, but when the 4:45 flight becomes a 6:25 flight thanks to delays, then the 5:05 flight
30 ERJ170 : The only way that would work is if the 12 aircraft trying to land at 5:00 were converted to only 4 aircraft trying to land at 5:00. If an airline was
31 Cubsrule : ...and whatever local market there is from MKE to MQT (and it's likely a handful of folks per day) can now fly MQ.
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