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Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More  
User currently offlineVoodoo From Niue, joined Mar 2001, 2074 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 25034 times:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/newfoundlan...r/story/2007/08/31/air-canada.html


` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
62 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 24888 times:

Well that's that.

I guess the demand for flying YYT-LHR just isn't big enough and travellers in St Johns have to accept that.

What's the big deal anyway in having to fly to YHZ first and then connect to AC flight 860? A 763ER is much more comfortable when flying the Atlantic than the much smaller A319.



The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlineAccargo From Canada, joined Sep 2004, 610 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 24806 times:

Let the whining begin. Nflder's had a chance and didn't use it enough to make it profitable for AC. The politicians are already ranting away.

User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4924 posts, RR: 43
Reply 3, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 24551 times:

Air Canada knows how many passengers travel between Newfoundland and London. They have been flying the route for around 60 years!!!

The whole YYT-LHR A319 project was a very expensive experiment, and the outcome was pretty well cast in stone ... the business just isn't there. However, until a dedicated aircraft was placed on the route, there was no way to "prove" the business wasn't there. When the B767 flew YHZ-YYT-LHR, the YHZ station and the YYT station were competing for seats on the YYT-LHR-YYT sector, thus the leg was usually full.

In fact there is so much demand for the YHZ-LHR route, some passengers were travelling YHZ-YYT to get on the A319, YYT-LHR, when the nonstop was full.

Of course the big question, is why does Air Canada have to "prove" anything??? It appears that Canadians still haven't figured out that Air Canada is no longer a crown corporation!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineRP TPA From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 852 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 24478 times:

Didn't Air Canada modify a few of their 319s especially for long-haul over the water service? Can they now use those aircraft for, perhaps, Central or South America? Toronto to Caracas non-stop is one route that comes to mind.

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26909 posts, RR: 58
Reply 5, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 24467 times:

Shame to see this service go. The TR that was done on here looked quite impressive.

User currently offlineConnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 24396 times:

Quoting RP TPA (Reply 4):
Didn't Air Canada modify a few of their 319s especially for long-haul over the water service? Can they now use those aircraft for, perhaps, Central or South America? Toronto to Caracas non-stop is one route that comes to mind.

I believe two were mod'ed. I think HF radios, additional rafts, perhaps more fire suppression in the hold.

As for YYZ - CCS, this route is already served by 'regular' A319s on a triangle route YYZ - POS - CCS - YYZ, I believe 3 or 4x weekly. Believe the 'stock' birds have 909 minute overwater clearance and the location of the various islands along the flightr path ensures they stay legal.

As for YYT - LHR, well, unfortunate for Newfoundlanders & Labradoreans, but as LongHauler pointed out, AC is no longer a Crown Corporation and therefore has to earn its' way, and route selection & development has to be done on a dollars and cents basis. The slot for the A319 @ LHR would not be cheap and more revenue can likely be generated by allocating the slot to a 'full-size' a/c (if available) from larger domestic markets (if the traffic is there).

Astraeus also pulled out of YYT - LGW but I think are still serving YDF (Deer Lake) - LGW . Perhaps they will return to YYT seasonally.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 24360 times:

All fairness, the timings were horrible..back into YYT after 0000 isnt good

User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4313 posts, RR: 36
Reply 8, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 24330 times:

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 6):
Believe the 'stock' birds have 909 minute overwater clearance

909 minutes  Wow!, that's cool, they can use them for Antarctic sightseeing flights then  duck 



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 24317 times:

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 7):
All fairness, the timings were horrible..back into YYT after 0000 isnt good

Most transatlantic flights have poor timings in at least one direction. I have never been enthused about arriving in London, Paris or Frankfurt at 6:30 a.m., when my hotel room won't be ready until after noon. The YYT-LHR timing was fine, just not ideal coming back, but if one is resident at YYT, at least he could go right home to bed.


User currently offlineConnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 24116 times:

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 8):
Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 6):
Believe the 'stock' birds have 909 minute overwater clearance

909 minutes Wow!, that's cool, they can use them for Antarctic sightseeing flights then duck


Ooppss...finger spaz there. 90 mins, of course. My bad.  Wow!



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineGilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3012 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 22860 times:

Air Canada, has to do whats right for them economically... If the route is that important to Newfoundland, why does the regional government not help subsidise the route. Especially if they feel it is vital for the regions economy and for tourism.

For a route with such limited appeal, I was surprised to see AC using up such a valuable slot at LHR. Where this sort of route would be more suitable to fly to LGW, STN or LTN as is nearly all O&D traffic.

Maybe Zoom or Canadian Affair, will pick up the route with a 757 and could operate as LGW-YYT-YHZ.

Or even a low cost carrier like ThomsonFly could fly the route. They like flying the longer sector routes which easyJet and Ryanair avoid. They are flying LTN-TLV this winter with a 738, which is a similar distance. Maybe we can see a 3-4 times weekly LTN-YYT route with a 752 or 738, next summer!  Smile


User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 22579 times:

Quoting Sebring (Reply 9):
Most transatlantic flights have poor timings in at least one direction. I have never been enthused about arriving in London, Paris or Frankfurt at 6:30 a.m., when my hotel room won't be ready until after noon. The YYT-LHR timing was fine, just not ideal coming back, but if one is resident at YYT, at least he could go right home to bed.

iwas thinking about possible connectings or even driving to Gander or other parts of NFLD. A traditionally timed flight would allow for a YYZ roundtrip as well. so YYZ-YYT-LHR-YYT-YYZ...that would be good use of the airplane.


User currently offlineScrubbsYWG From Canada, joined Mar 2007, 1495 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 22500 times:

Its a business decision, nothing more. IF the city can't sustain it, there is no reason that the company should continue providing the service as a 'good will gesture'. AC left bankruptcy, i'm sure they want to not go down that route again, and having routes that are consistently not worth it are going to get the cut. Sure, people will be upset, but if it doesn't make money, its not goign to stay. Its not the end of the world that people will have to connect, if i want to fly to LHR, i have to connect somewhere too.

User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3327 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 22440 times:

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 6):
I believe two were mod'ed. I think HF radios, additional rafts, perhaps more fire suppression in the hold.

Were they ever ETOPS-certified, or was it just a few simple modifications?


User currently offlineLHR777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 22232 times:

Quoting RP TPA (Reply 4):
Didn't Air Canada modify a few of their 319s especially for long-haul over the water service?

apparently, two A319's are ETOPS-certified. C-GITP and C-GITR. I flew AC830 last week, on C-GITR. (The aircraft routes' YYZ-YYT-LHR). Cabin crew do YYZ-YYT-LHR on the same aircraft, Flight-deck arrive in YYT from YUL to do the LHR sector.

The aircraft was comfortable enough in J class. The new AC widescreen AVOD was awesome, I really enjoyed it and it helped time pass by very quickly indeed. I sat in 4J YYZ-YYT, and seat 2A YYT-LHR. The meal service is interesting - no menu's, but a choice of two entrees.

Here's a few pictures -

J-class Legroom


Breakfast, YYZ-YYT on AC690


AC's new A319 widescreen AVOD. The movie is 'Waitress'.


Final approach into St Johns


40 inches of legroom, in seat 2A. Plus Keri Russell in 'Waitress'.


The lunch meal-tray set-up. Garlic Bruschetta with goats cheese and a random 'salsa'. Cheese plate, butter and water biscuits. A delicious filo-pastry dessert, with raspberry coulis.


Main course entree - North Atlantic shrimp over Linguini with beans and lobster sauce


User currently offlineAC_B777 From Canada, joined Aug 2000, 809 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 22145 times:

Quoting Accargo (Reply 2):
Let the whining begin. Nflder's had a chance and didn't use it enough to make it profitable for AC. The politicians are already ranting away.

I haven't heard anyone whining or complaining about this other than this article. When AC made the announcement to fly this route with the 319, it was stated that it was only for the summer season.
There is good demand for the LHR route, the problem is that most people are using it as a connection point for other destinations. Most of the pax leaving YYT are going on other flights to YHZ,YUL,YOW and YYZ to fly to LHR but then connect onwards. It's no different than people flying to YHZ or YYZ from YYT. Most are only using it as a cnx point, not their final destination.
The times of the flight were not the greatest. The arrival time in LHR meant that one would have to spend the night there to connect to another flight. Something that most will not do.
AC should have continued the original B763 flights we had but reduce them to 3X weekly instead of spend the money to retrofit two 319's for the route. Actually, a supervisor told me last week that AC might bring back the YHZ-YYT-LHR flights this winter on a 3X weekly basis, but that's not confirmed.
Another problem we had with the 319 was cargo capacity. We lost a huge amount of space when the 763 was pulled from the route, something the 319 could not handle.

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 3):
In fact there is so much demand for the YHZ-LHR route

Not really. Many people were using YHZ as a stopover point for downline connections, not as a destination.

As for Astraeus, I doubt we will see them back in YYT. Their loads from YYT-LGW were ridiculously low. I remember some of our counterparts from Globe Ground telling us that some of the flights had only 6 pax.



In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
User currently offlineManchesterMAN From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 1224 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 22076 times:

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 6):
The slot for the A319 @ LHR would not be cheap and more revenue can likely be generated by allocating the slot to a 'full-size' a/c (if available) from larger domestic markets (if the traffic is there).



Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 11):
For a route with such limited appeal, I was surprised to see AC using up such a valuable slot at LHR. Where this sort of route would be more suitable to fly to LGW, STN or LTN as is nearly all O&D traffic.

The LHR slot pair used for the A319 service to YYT is pretty much useless to AC for any other service given the timings. The aircraft arrives at LHR at 21:25 and departs at 22:40, arriving YYT at 00:45. The YYT arrival time is late enough as it is. If the slot was used for a service further west (apart from maybe YHZ) then the arrival time would be even later and even more undesirebale.



Flown: A300,A319,A320,A321,A330,A340.A380,717,727,737,747,757,767,777,DC9,DC10,MD11,MD80,F100,F50,ERJ,E190,CRJ,BAe146,Da
User currently offlineAccargo From Canada, joined Sep 2004, 610 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 21943 times:

Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 16):
I haven't heard anyone whining or complaining about this other than this article. When AC made the announcement to fly this route with the 319, it was stated that it was only for the summer season.

It's Labour Day weekend, wait till Tuesday.


User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4924 posts, RR: 43
Reply 19, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 21402 times:

All of Air Canada's A319's have life jackets ... this allows them to travel up to 400nm from a suitable landing area.

Five further, also have slide rafts, survival gear and HF radios ... this allows them to travel up to 75 minutes from a suitable landing area. These are the ones used on the Caribbean. Oddly enough, primarily for the HF radios, as only the furthest two easterly airways south of BDA require the slide rafts.

The two A319s for the YYT-LHR ops were heavily modified specifically for that operation. In addition to the above, they also have more capable cargo hold smoke/fire detection, 8.33 radio spacing, a second HF radio and as well, had the MTOW increased from 70,000 Kgs to 75,500 Kgs. This allowed operation up to 120 minutes from a suitable landing area.

All in all, these two birds are very capable, and I am interested to see if there are any plans which will use the capabilities.

That being said however, I would imagine the first thing to be done to them, will be re register the MTOW back to 70,000Kgs, as if even it is not being used, it does increase landing fees.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineFLYACYYZ From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 1914 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 20665 times:

Quoting RP TPA (Reply 4):
Toronto to Caracas non-stop is one route that comes to mind.

Toronto to Caracas (non-stop) has already operated on the A319 as a stand alone flight. It didn't meet it's passenger or revenue targets, was somewhat seasonal, and thus was combined with POS, currently operating YYZ-POS-CCS-YYZ.

Many threads have already argued (to death) that the time is right to resume operate both these routes (YYZ-POS & YYZ-CCS) as separate entity flights.



Above and Beyond
User currently offlineBmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 20665 times:

There may have been one aircraft to fit YYT-LHR nicely....

http://www.hank.ch/fake56.htm

Sorry, I couldn't resist!!!  Silly



The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlineGilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3012 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 20654 times:

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 3):
In fact there is so much demand for the YHZ-LHR route, some passengers were travelling YHZ-YYT to get on the A319, YYT-LHR, when the nonstop was full.


Quoting LongHauler (Reply 19):
All in all, these two birds are very capable, and I am interested to see if there are any plans which will use the capabilities.

If the YHZ-LHR service is doing so well but does not require the heavy metal of a 763/333, how about a second daily service using one of these two A319's? This is still within about 700 miles of the aircrafts maximum range.

I was just looking at the pictures above of the A319 flight LHR-YYT, and I would fly on them any day. The service and IFE looks great! It looks better than the older 752's flying across the Atlantic flying to the US and has a wider cabin! I don't understand people who have been knocking the A319's flying this route, when they offer a more superior service, and the route is shorter than for example BHX-EWR on a 752.

[Edited 2007-09-01 23:30:42]

User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3327 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 20436 times:

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 22):
If the YHZ-LHR service is doing so well but does not require the heavy metal of a 763/333, how about a second daily service using one of these two A319's? This is still within about 700 miles of the aircrafts maximum range.

Do AC have the necessary LHR slots?

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 22):
It looks better than the older 752's flying across the Atlantic flying to the US and has a wider cabin!

While it's certainly a better offering than most American carriers, the slightly larger cabin width of the A319 is barely noticeable.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25117 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 20378 times:

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 11):
For a route with such limited appeal, I was surprised to see AC using up such a valuable slot at LHR.

At the times the YYT-LHR-YYT flights operated, I don't think LHR slots are a serious problem.

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 1):
What's the big deal anyway in having to fly to YHZ first and then connect to AC flight 860? A 763ER is much more comfortable when flying the Atlantic than the much smaller A319.

I think most passengers would prefer a 5 hour nonstop on an A319 than a connection via YHZ that takes almost twice as long (9.5 hrs.).

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 3):
Of course the big question, is why does Air Canada have to "prove" anything??? It appears that Canadians still haven't figured out that Air Canada is no longer a crown corporation!

Yes, and there are many larger cities in Canada (some much larger, e.g. YWG, population 700,000) with no direct service to Europe (AC did operate YWG-LHR nonstop at one time, once or twice a week and seasonal if not mistaken). And how many cities in the USA with a population of 180,000 have nonstop service to Europe?


25 ScrubbsYWG : Wow, that cheese plate looks very generous! yummy...
26 FLYACYYZ : Exactly. I'm sure AC bowed to politcal pressure (surprisingly) to maintain the service. Outside of summer peak, the numbers are just not there. If th
27 N1120A : Air Canada, does, however, still maintain some obligations to the government. First, it depends on the Air Canada configuration as to whether those a
28 Viscount724 : But that's still no argument why a private company should be expected to operate an unprofitable route. As someone else mentioned, if YYT wants direc
29 Connies4ever : YWG - LHR was up to 5x weekly in the 70s, but now is a merely a Zoom market, 1x. Mostly I think YWG does not have a big biz market, not many HQs in t
30 Acey : But no good for cargo and yields probably wouldn't be very high...in the short term, if AC wants more capacity on the route, they'll put an A330 in t
31 Pboud0 : YHZ does not need more capacity to LHR more seats would be a waste.
32 Iaddca : very sorry to see this route go, even though I understand it from a business decision was hoping to do an IAD-BOS-YHZ-YYT trip and then a 4 hr crossin
33 Polaris : The St. John's - London-LHR route will probably be back next summer. This was intended as a seasonal service all along. That's what was mentioned in t
34 Hmmmm... : Those are some professional photos of the meal service. What camera did you use?
35 DTWAGENT : If the flight is not doing all that great, then I can see why AC has stop the flights all together. If the goverment wants them to keep going with it,
36 Acey : From what I've heard, the plane was filling up on the non-stop flight. If it ever returns to running YHZ-YYT-LHR you can bet it's going to fill up ye
37 Post contains images LHR777 : It's a Sony CyberShot DSC-T100. It was really nice actually! Thanks for noticing my pictures. I'd also fly an AC A319 any day across the pond. Oh wai
38 NEMA : Just thinking about the range of the A319.. you give this as a 5 hour trip, lets say a significant headwind was apparent, how much more time is avail
39 ManchesterMAN : Well they routinely fly PHL-SFO for UA which is a good 200 miles further than LHR-YYT and there are longer routes flown by the A319 than that. In fac
40 Bmacleod : The news release clearly indicates the route will not be back next year......[Edited 2007-09-02 14:45:24]
41 LongHauler : LHR-YHZ is not possible on an AC A319. The longest route currently flown by an AC A319 is YYZ-BOG, and thats pretty close to the maximum capability o
42 Post contains links LH423 : LongHauler beat me to the punch. Most of Air Canada's 'obligations' have to do with compliance with the Official Languages Act, requirements that the
43 Viscount724 : AC now uses the 762 on YYZ-BOG and it appears to be changing to the 763 for the winter schedule. AC uses their A319s on many routes longer than YYT-L
44 MAH4546 : The A319 was used on MIA-YVR, which is barely shorter than LHR-YHZ (about 50mi shorter).
45 LongHauler : See above with regard to Atlantic fuel planning vice North American fuel planning.
46 Voodoo : Personally, I think the whole 'controversy' would be moot now if YHZ pax on the LHR-YYT-YHZ leg could have been made exempt from the regulation that m
47 AirCanada014 : You know would be interesting if AC decide to have the EMB190 fly across the pond? I guess it won't make it cause of the range and requires to refitt
48 Post contains images Brilondon : I would not be surprised if AC started the route up again next summer if they feel that the route could be profitable.
49 Acey : Under no circumstance, based on the information provided by LongHauler, would the E190 be able to fly transatlantic.
50 YOW : Very true, however, a 0630 arrival is well timed for connections. Getting into LHR after 2130, eliminates pretty much all connections. No connections
51 AY104 : Come on, let's give AC a break! They did their best to make a go of it, and it didn't work. It's a bit like complaining that there is no direct servic
52 Sebring : Prime LHR slots are prohibitively expensive - worth millions of dollars. Off-peak slots are easier to maintain. Financially, this highly seasonal rou
53 YOW : Yes indeed. Hey Icelandair might be something that could work for YYT now that open skies is in place. KEF might have sufficient connections and ther
54 Post contains links and images BMIFlyer : Yes, i'm saddened Thank you, I enjoyed flying the route, and writing the report Amazing Trip Across The Atlantic By A319 (Pics) (by BMIFlyer May 25 2
55 Post contains images BMIFlyer : Nice pics Lee
56 Post contains links Visityyj : Air Canada "not nice" - mayor. http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/story/2007/09/04/air-canada.html Astraeus says they'll be back next summer.
57 LH423 : US cities with metro regions of 2.5 million and below with nonstop, intercontinental service: Denver, 2.4 million, BA (LHR), LH (FRA, MUC) Portland,
58 Viscount724 : Thanks for the detailed list but some of the services you show are seasonal or charters and can't really be considered as regular international sched
59 FLYACYYZ : Just as the City of St. John's and the Province of Newfoundland make decisions which are economically viable, Air Canada has done exactly the same. T
60 Voodoo : Hey Icelandair might be something that could work for YYT now that open skies is in place. KEF might have sufficient connections and there's no back-t
61 Post contains images YOW : LH423 thanks for the list. Don't forget, in Canada, there's also Deer Lake, Whitehorse and Winnipeg, albeit only on a seasonal basis to these places.
62 AirCanada014 : I wonder if the Mayor of St John's took over AC at the helm do you think he would allow AC continue flying even on less than half empty seats or would
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