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Competition Between Trains And Short Haul Planes  
User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7809 posts, RR: 3
Posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2861 times:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6977211.stm

Given the environmental concerns, it seems that that there is now even less reason for flying on certain routes.

18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10930 posts, RR: 37
Reply 1, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2848 times:

I started a topic about this on the non-aviation forum.

I am very pleased of the Eurostar's speed record, 2 hours and 3 minutes from Paris to London, city center to city center.
Congratutlations! This is remarkable!

Viva la Eurostar !  bigthumbsup 



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9746 posts, RR: 31
Reply 2, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2836 times:

A new train line is not a reason for flying less, unless that train line cust down YOUR individual transit time on that particular route.

I am not saying that such infrastructure projects do not make sense, even if the cost/benefit ratio is as low as it is in this particular case. However, for transot passengers or passengers living west of LHR, flkying may still be the better option.

It all depends where you originate your journey and where you want to go. The new line is certainly a welcome additon to the options people have, but it will not eliminate flights on the London-Paris route.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7809 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2836 times:

http://www.expedia.co.uk/pub/agent.dll?tovr=-1294667293&ps3u=

Given that fares start from £59, I thought that this would be of interest.


User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7809 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2815 times:

http://www.easyjet.com/en/book/step1.asp

I could not get the FR site to work, so I just took Easyjet as an LCC comparison.

David


User currently offlineSebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3682 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2774 times:

The line SXB-PARIS will be tough for AF now that the TGV makes it in 2h20min and soon in 2h. It's less than 1 hour by plane, but you have the hassle to go at the airport + the boarding time, and it's much more expensive.

User currently offlineANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2696 times:

Most pax flying LHR-CDG or vv are connecting to long haul flights. That doesn't really work taking the trains. Point to point, if they don't get leaves on the track, they will likely be a good replacement for rail.

User currently offlineStylo777 From Germany, joined Feb 2006, 3023 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2618 times:

Quoting ANother (Reply 6):
Most pax flying LHR-CDG or vv are connecting to long haul flights. That doesn't really work taking the trains. Point to point, if they don't get leaves on the track, they will likely be a good replacement for rail.

but it works in Germany! Cologne and Stuttgart highspeed trains (ICE) connects pax to all LH destinations out of FRA. They check-in the bags from the mainstation and get already the boarding pass for their final destination.


User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2915 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2607 times:

Quoting ANother (Reply 6):
Most pax flying LHR-CDG or vv are connecting to long haul flights. That doesn't really work taking the trains.



Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 7):
but it works in Germany! Cologne and Stuttgart highspeed trains (ICE) connects pax to all LH destinations out of FRA.

The trick is that the high-speed train station must be at the hub airport. So CDG is well-positioned to use high-speed rail as a feeder (as are FRA and CGN), especially if they feed into cities with less O/D demand. So while for London it'll probably still be easier for AF to fly them FarAway-CDG-London, it is already easier to let them fly FarAway-CDG and then put them on a TGV to a well-connected city on the rail network, such as Brussels, Lille, Lyon etc. This system (AF/SNCF codeshare) already works. Same thing in Germany with DB and LH (and many other airlines BTW!).

Since the Eurostar terminal is not right below LHR or LGW, it's not going to work in the UK.



I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlineBaron95 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1335 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2578 times:

I think both modes of transportation are complementary. Obviously if you are going city center to city center and there happens to be a high-speed rail line between the two AND the distances is less than 600km or so, it is usualy better to take the train.

If there is no high-speed rail for the city pair in your trip, you have to fly. If the distances are more than about 600km or so, you prob are better off flying.

Advantages of flying are many tough, like:

1 - Competition/Choice. How many companies provide air service between popular city pairs in europe? Several. how many provide rail service? ONE - typically state owned.

2 - Frequent flyer programs to be used worldwide to build points to go to exotic locations, where no train goes.

3 - For infrequent leisure travel, an airplane ride is usually something exciting and part of the vacation experience. The train feels more like commuting to work.



Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
User currently offlineTrintocan From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2000, 3257 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2511 times:

I would beg to disagree Baron, I truly enjoy riding on Eurostar. It is very fast and comfortable and is definitely a cut above the other rail services in the UK. I personally go for a glass of wine while traversing the Channel Tunnel too! For me, I think that the Eurostar ride is very much part of the holiday experience (I have used Eurostar 3 times to Paris and once to Brussels and have never flown to CDG or ORY).

Trains from my part of the UK arrive at Paddington and so I have to take the Tube over to Waterloo (Bakerloo) and, from November, St. Pancras (Circle or Hammersmith & City) but I take it all in stride as I look forward to the Eurostar ride. I will concede though for a family travelling with much luggage and on a rainy day the transfer will be a drawback. Yes, I love planes but I will make an exception for Eurostar.

TrinToCan.



Hop to it, fly for life!
User currently offlineRivet42 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 818 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2467 times:

Quoting Trintocan (Reply 10):
I would beg to disagree Baron, I truly enjoy riding on Eurostar.

I agree wholeheartedly. I have often made use of the very low (from GBP59 each way) business class fares at the weekend, where you get a nice spacious carriage, and a full waitered meal service with wine, champagne and hot food all included. Beat that, BA and AF!

In fact, even though I live half way between central London and Heathrow Airport, I far prefer to take the Eurostar to Paris, even if I want to go and watch the planes at CDG! It's simply a much more civilised way of travelling than being treated like a terrorist/idiot at Heathrow, not to mention all the queing up and waiting around that makes a complete nonsense of a half-hour flight. And i can carry my toiletries in an overnight bag without fear of restraint...!

I look forward to the day that Eurostar services go a bit further afield than Brussels and Paris. They were originally planned, then shelved, maybe now they may be reconsidered...

Riv'



I travel, therefore I am.
User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2915 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2435 times:

Quoting Rivet42 (Reply 11):
I look forward to the day that Eurostar services go a bit further afield than Brussels and Paris.

Well there's a summer-only once-weekly service from London to Avignon (on Saturdays). Not much but it's a start...



I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3671 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2430 times:

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 9):
3 - For infrequent leisure travel, an airplane ride is usually something exciting and part of the vacation experience. The train feels more like commuting to work.

Chalk me up as another in disagreement. I think a lot of us these days fly a lot more often than we take a "real" train, so it's taking the train that feels like a vacation experience. Trains are also almost always more comfortable, with much more legroom and wider seats - even as a 6'4" guy on a Japanese shinkansen, I can comfortably cross my legs and still have air in front of me in regular reserved coach. No way you can ever do that in coach on a plane. The feeling of being packed in on a plane is what makes me feel like I'm commuting... the greater comfort in a train is a lot more in tune with a vacation experience.

There's also always something exciting about going 180mph on the ground. You only do that for maybe a second or two on takeoff in a plane, but in a high speed train, you do it pretty much continuously. Most of what you see in a plane (if you're lucky enough to even be able to see out a window) is pretty much nothing, moving very, very slowly beneath you.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineFoxy From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 179 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2425 times:

Quoting Rivet42 (Reply 11):

I look forward to the day that Eurostar services go a bit further afield than Brussels and Paris. They were originally planned, then shelved, maybe now they may be reconsidered...

Think i'm right in saying they are in the process of building a high speed line between Brussels and Amsterdam so can no doubt expect London to Amsterdam trains once that is complete


User currently offlinePHLwok From United States of America, joined May 2007, 527 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2396 times:

Quoting ANother (Reply 6):
Most pax flying LHR-CDG or vv are connecting to long haul flights.

Agreed - when I've been in northern France or southeastern England and needed to get between the two - even if I'm not going to/from the city centers of London or Paris or near LHR such as Slough or Woking - I still find the train to be a far superior experience. Particularly this year, I avoid LHR at all costs.


User currently offlineEmmenezMoi From France, joined Apr 2005, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2383 times:

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 12):

Well there's a summer-only once-weekly service from London to Avignon (on Saturdays). Not much but it's a start...

If I'm not mistaken in winter there is also weekly service to the French alps...



PNC aux portes!
User currently offlineBaron95 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1335 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2380 times:

Quoting Trintocan (Reply 10):
I think that the Eurostar ride is very much part of the holiday experience (I have used Eurostar 3 times to Paris and once to Brussels and have never flown to CDG or ORY).

Of course you do. So would I. Eurostar still has that new factor. I haven't been on it, and certainly would take it if I had the option.

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 13):
Chalk me up as another in disagreement. I think a lot of us these days fly a lot more often than we take a "real" train, so it's taking the train that feels like a vacation experience.

I think you are actually agreeing with me. I fly over 100K miles a year. Anything that is not a plane is novelty for me and I'd take in if it is practical. If you read my comment, I was talking about the infrequent vacaioner flyers (a flight every other year is typical for many families), that takes the train to work every day. That guy, having a choice, might choose flying rather than a train ride.

Any way that is not a big point. Frequent flyer loyalty programs and competition (service nad price) on a route are the primary advantages of air travel.



Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2356 times:

Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 7):
but it works in Germany! Cologne and Stuttgart highspeed trains (ICE) connects pax to all LH destinations out of FRA. They check-in the bags from the mainstation and get already the boarding pass for their final destination.

Unless you're connecting via AMS, LHR, or CDG.

It all depends on the connecting flow. It all boils down the market dynamics. If high frequency flights offer extensive connectivity and have a low level of point-to-point business travel, then there may not be any effect unless the HSR goes to the airport allowing easy interline transfer connectivity. If it doesn’t go to the airport it could in fact fail because of the hassle associated with the transfer to the airport from the rail station. If it has a high level of business travel and low connectivity traffic, then the train will win because it’s basically supplanting O&D air traffic. If the air connectivity is lost on a high connectivity route, then it could have a more far reaching effect on the carrier(s) involved. They could lose that connectivity traffic which then causes a downturn on demand across the hub (if it’s a hub that is affected). On short hops, airlines make very little on the connecting passenger on the route and make a ton on the connecting flight. The money is on the high yield O&D passenger where the rail fare is probably about half what air would be.

[Edited 2007-09-05 04:07:00]

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