Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Four People Sentenced In Midair Trial  
User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2898 posts, RR: 3
Posted (6 years 12 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2355 times:

Fair use excerpt:

Quote:

A Swiss court has found four employees of an air traffic control firm guilty of manslaughter over the deaths of 71 people in a mid-air collision in 2002. Three of the four managers convicted were given suspended prison terms and the fourth was ordered to pay a fine.

Another four employees of the Skyguide firm were cleared of any wrongdoing. Prosecutors had said a "culture of negligence" at the firm contributed to the mid-air collision, which killed mostly Russian children.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6977136.stm


I scratch my head, therefore I am.
17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAcidradio From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1874 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (6 years 12 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2315 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

By making only one of the eight people pay a fine and no prison time for anybody, that'll sure teach them!


Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3626 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (6 years 12 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2303 times:

Quoting Acidradio (Reply 1):
By making only one of the eight people pay a fine and no prison time for anybody, that'll sure teach them!

IIRC, one of the controllers was killed by the father of one of the victims....



PHX based
User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (6 years 12 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2285 times:

Huh ... when I read the headline I thought those people were sentenced midair ...?

Quoting Acidradio (Reply 1):
By making only one of the eight people pay a fine and no prison time for anybody, that'll sure teach them!

I think it teaches you enough if you have to spend to rest of your life knowing that 71 people, mostly children, died - partially because of your negligence. The controller who was mainly responsible for the crash has been murdered by a father who lost his two children and his wife in the crash. The father got jailed for eight years. Even for European proportions a fairly low sentence. It shows how much misfortune was involved here ...


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14011 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (6 years 12 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2246 times:

That's called "risk management". How much do you have to pay to have sufficient staff and proper tools and how much dio you save if you understaff your facility and don't give the employees the tools they need to do their job properly.
How high is the risk that an accident can happen due to this and what will the company have to pay then. I'll bet all the damages were paid by insurance companies anyway.

These verdicts were a really great way to teach the management not force their staff to accept unacceptable risks. Yeah sure

Some years ago a semi truck driver with 30 tons of gasoline in his trailer lost control over his truck after the trailer's brakes failed going down a steep decent into the small town of Herborn in Germany. The truck fell over in the main street, right in front of a coffee shop and exploded, killing numerous people. The driver managed to escape from his cab just before the explosion.
During the subsequent trial, the owner of the trucking company, the driver and the chief mechanic were accused of negligience and manslaughter, because it was known to all that the brakes of the trailer were defective.
The mechanic was aquitted, because he could prove that he warned both his boss and the driver not to take the trailer.
The boss got sentenced to the highest punishment, several years in prison, for forcing the driver to accept the trailer.
the driver got a lesser sentence, because it was seen by the court that he was under immense pressure not to loose his job, because, had he refuse to take the trailer, the boss had threatened to fire him under some pretext.

Jan


User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2898 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (6 years 12 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2185 times:

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 3):
Huh ... when I read the headline I thought those people were sentenced midair ...?

Sorry, I was trying to be concise...

Quoting Acidradio (Reply 1):
By making only one of the eight people pay a fine and no prison time for anybody, that'll sure teach them!

I can see that people will find these sentences disappointing, especially the relatives and friends of the people who died. But as you know, criminal sentences are uncommon in aviation, as it would deter people from cooperating in investigations. Criminal trials are held only in case of bad intent or gross negligence. The latter seems to have been the case here. What sentence would be adequate for such negligence I find impossible to say - but suspended jail sentences might be insatisfactory, yes.



I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlinePYP757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 12 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2081 times:

"Seven had continued working for Skyguide until the time of the verdict."
The question now is whether they will continue being employed after the verdict, or instead be fired. Sure, losing one's job is not as bad a punishment as going to jail, but it would still be better than nothing.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9338 posts, RR: 29
Reply 7, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1808 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4):
Some years ago a semi truck driver with 30 tons of gasoline in his trailer lost control over his truck afte

By the logic of that sentence, the authorities who planned the road that way should have been sentenced as well.

Quoting PYP757 (Reply 6):
The question now is whether they will continue being employed after the verdict,

This is Europe. In Germany, "Life" means 15 years and that is the most you can get for murder, unless you pose a special threat for society under which 20 years may be possible. One of the worst terrorists, who has not changed a bit in his thoughts and not regretted a thing, is due for parole after 25 years next year.

The Skyguide managers have been convicted for gross negligence, they had no previous sentences and there is no danger of repeat actions, even if they stay in their jobs.

ADAIK, the manager of that Airline has not even been put on trial, although I consider it gross negligence, when TCAS is installed in an aircraft and the flight crews are not properly instructed and advised in the use.

One could say, where is justice here? The father who killed tha controller hit the wrong target. But then,looking at his sentence (8 years), he probably knew why.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1769 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 7):
In Germany, "Life" means 15 years and that is the most you can get for murder, unless you pose a special threat for society under which 20 years may be possible.

Not exactly true, 15 years is the minimum length after which the inmate CAN be released on parole. If court determines a special severity of the felony the 15 year-rule does not apply and people usually serve for 18-25 years. However, if court decides you stay in prison because the felony was that severe or because you did not behave, you stay in prison. Last thing I read was, that the longest serving inmate in Germany is in jail since 1957. Prisoners who pose a thread to the public after being released can be kept in security detention in a max-security mental home. I visited one about 8 years ago and I must say I would rather be in a prison. An extremely scary place to be ...


User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2898 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1718 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 7):
although I consider it gross negligence, when TCAS is installed in an aircraft and the flight crews are not properly instructed and advised in the use.

That was not the fault of the airline, but due to the fact that the Russian regulations on this point are different from the rest of the world (if in Russia ATC gives instructions contrary to TCAS advisory, ATC is given priority). This screams for ICAO intervention, if it hasn't been done already.



I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1716 times:

Refesh my memory, which crash was this? Did it involve the DHL 757?

DeltaGuy


User currently offlineSandroZRH From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 3428 posts, RR: 50
Reply 11, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1713 times:

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 8):

Verwahrung is the magic word  Wink


User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2898 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1688 times:

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 10):
Refesh my memory, which crash was this? Did it involve the DHL 757?

That one indeed.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20020701-0

Edit: let me include the accident investigation reports:

Report

Annex 1 and 3

Annex 2 and 4-10

[Edited 2007-09-05 15:29:21]


I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14011 posts, RR: 62
Reply 13, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1643 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 7):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4):
Some years ago a semi truck driver with 30 tons of gasoline in his trailer lost control over his truck afte

By the logic of that sentence, the authorities who planned the road that way should have been sentenced as well.

Why? The road was perfectly safe if one used a roadworthy vehicle with working brakes. This is why we have the annual roadworthiness and brakes inspection for heavy goods vehicles in Germany. If the boss insists and threatens an employee with sacking him over some pretext to take a known unsafe vehicle, because he is greedy and wants to earn more $$$, then IMO he is the main reponsible person in this affair. And the same should IMO apply to the management of Swissguide. After all they made a pretty penny extra by keeping their facility understaffed.
In the end it is just greed.

Jan


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9338 posts, RR: 29
Reply 14, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1624 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 13):

Why? The road was perfectly safe if one used a roadworthy vehicle with working brakes

wrong, you have to include in your plannings that trucks without working brakes may use the road. Murphy's law.

But that is not the topic, only your comparison shows how much more advanced airline security can be over road security.

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 9):
That was not the fault of the airline, but due to the fact that the Russian

I know that. So the logic conclusion is that the responsible people in the Russian authorities should have stood trial for gross negligence as well.

What angers me in this case is that in the public Skyguide and Germany (because German authorities outsourced the control in that area to Skyguide) are given the sole responsibility and the Russians and Bashkirian are he snow white innocent victims.

They are not-.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineAcidradio From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1874 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1559 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

What happened to the days when we just blamed God or society for these mishaps?


Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9338 posts, RR: 29
Reply 16, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1556 times:

Quoting Acidradio (Reply 15):
What happened to the days when we just blamed God or society for these mishaps?

They're both still on the list. The difference between the old days and now is that people have opinions and a media to spread their opinions in seconds.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2898 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1553 times:

Quoting Acidradio (Reply 15):
What happened to the days when we just blamed God or society for these mishaps?

Those days are history, as well as their high accident rates. Getting to the core of the problem and acting on it reduces the chance of an accident happening again. Granted, jailing people is unlikely to have much of an impact on aviation safety, but accident investigation and subsequent recommendations and actions certainly do.



I scratch my head, therefore I am.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
6 People Die In NWT Plane Crash posted Thu Aug 17 2006 14:11:23 by YZFOO7F
Has There Ever Been More Than 2 Acft In A Midair? posted Mon Dec 19 2005 06:24:29 by KDTWFlyer
Famous People Killed In Air Crashes posted Fri Dec 16 2005 06:28:01 by VC10BOAC
All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy? posted Wed Nov 16 2005 02:47:39 by Gokmengs
Four Hour Layover In Saint John NB posted Sat Jun 4 2005 19:17:39 by Helsin99
Did Anyone Fly People Express In F? posted Fri Aug 16 2002 05:53:53 by Zrs70
16 People Dead In Crash Near Medellin posted Mon Dec 17 2001 03:29:56 by AirafriqueDKR
How Many People Live In Nc? posted Mon Nov 12 2001 01:54:05 by Usair737-200
CNN Reports 8 People Arrested In NY Airports posted Fri Sep 14 2001 05:49:45 by L-188
Homeless People Living In The Airports... posted Thu Apr 5 2001 06:11:02 by 747-600X