FCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2122 posts, RR: 3 Posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 9651 times:
Air & Cosmos reveals this week , the first A320F customer has signed for 30 + 18 options .
For the moment the name is not revealed.Probably will be at the roll out of the plane at Dresden next year.
2 777STL: Sounds like new aircraft to me, if he's talking about options and such.
3 Lumberton: I knew Russian and EADS were in talks to do an A320F conversion program. I can't remember anything about a new build freighter based on the A320. Anyo
4 VV701: This is also my recollection. I think that the agreement was a joint 50:50 between Irkut of Russia and EADS/Airbus with the conversion kits being mad
5 OceansWorld: Here's an excerpt from a Flight International paper published less than two weeks ago. http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ects-russian-deal-by-ye
6 Da man: That could be purchase options on the conversion kits, just like how purchase options for new aircraft work.
7 Breiz: Correct. No new built A320F was considered so far to my knowledge. Already in May 2006, the figure put forward by EFW Dresden was 900 units over 20 y
8 Scarebus03: I doubt if they are conversions as the value and demand for A320 airframes are too high to justify conversions. I would imagine they are in fact new o
9 Stitch: Depends on the A320. A320-100's are mighty cheap on the open market (around $5 million). A320-200 LGWs are worth about $12 million for a frame delive
10 Da man: Which ones, aren't the only A320-100s on the market the ones that are being parted-out (ex-BA)?
11 LTU932: AF still flies a few of their original A320-100s.
12 Da man: But are they on the market as Stitch has suggested?
13 OceansWorld: Probably, but my aim was to quote an as recent as possible article in which they mention the conversion.
14 Stitch: That may just be what one would be worth if it was available. Also, it looks like the A320-200 would be the more desirable freighter prospect.
15 FCKC: Yes of course these 30 + 18 frames are conversion from pax aircraft, thus second hand planes. Question : Where will they come from ? Probably the olde
16 Scarebus03: Stitch, The -100 I think we can forget about as they are nearly extinct and any modification program would be fairly extensive and costly. The older
17 MCOflyer: With more powerful engines and range it would make sense for the 200 to be selected as well. How much range will a 100F have should someone convert o
18 Lumberton: IMO, that is THE question. Given Airbus' current backlog for new production pax models, the scarcity of -200s available for lease, this freighter pro
19 FlagshipAZ: It wouldn't be the -100 series, as there were only 21 built and among the first A320s built. These passenger-to-freighter conversions are all -200 ser
20 LTU932: Something tells me the first customer could be FX. I don't see 5X going back to operating narrowbody aircraft smaller than the 757s, since they phase
21 Itsnotfinals: what a bummer they didn't get any engines with the deal I wish anetters would quit misusing the term "frames" for used aircraft, you don't buy the en
22 Zeke: The two models that are being looked at are the A320PF and the A321PF, both will feature a 86"x121" forward main deck cargo door, AFAIK the A320-200 a
Gunsontheroof From United States, joined Jan 2006, 2969 posts, RR: 17 Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 8673 times:
Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 21):
I wish anetters would quit misusing the term "frames" for used aircraft, you don't buy the engine seperately. they are buying Aircraft or Airplanes no just the frames.
Well, it's no secret that you're picky about semantics...not a big deal to most of us.
It'd be nice if FedEx, UPS or DHL picked some of these up, I'd like to see these frames on finals at my local airports on a regular basis!
Zeke From Hong Kong SAR, PRC, joined Dec 2006, 4701 posts, RR: 65 Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 8653 times:
Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 21):
I wish anetters would quit misusing the term "frames" for used aircraft, you don't buy the engine separately. they are buying Aircraft or Airplanes no just the frames.
You are incorrect, many airlines do in fact do that, buy or lease engines and/or APU separately.
Cathay Pacific wins Airline of the Year 2009 Award. Great service. Great people. Great fares.
Itsnotfinals From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 26, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 8591 times:
Quoting Zeke (Reply 24): You are incorrect, many airlines do in fact do that, buy or lease engines and/or APU separately.
You are not quite correct. When you purchase the plane you need to purchase the engines at the same time on a used aircraft. Since I have purchased several transport aircraft in my lifetime I can tell you no bank is going to take a lien position on an un-airworthy aircraft and without engines that is what you have. Yes, you may finance the "parts" seperately, but each lienholder will require that their financial instrument have covenants that require the aircraft they are apart of to be airworthy at all times.
Typically when you buy a used aircraft for instance the engine reserves paid in for maintenance are in escrow and go with the plane.
Even when buying a new aircraft from a manufacturer, you can't take possession of the aircraft until it has engines, even if they are leased elsewhere, you would be in violation of your covenants to not have a complete "aircraft" on the primary lease or loan.
if it can fly it is a airplane or aircraft, not a frame!
Lotsamiles From United States, joined May 2005, 261 posts, RR: 0 Reply 27, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8483 times:
Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 26): You are not quite correct. When you purchase the plane you need to purchase the engines at the same time on a used aircraft.
Actually, many aircraft are sold without engines. FedEx is selling two A310's this way right now. Your point on financing is valid but you can always pay cash...
Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 26): Typically when you buy a used aircraft for instance the engine reserves paid in for maintenance are in escrow and go with the plane.
This is up to the seller. Sometimes they will keep the reserves and this has to be reflected in the price as the buyer will eventually be stuck with a shortfall up the next qualifying event.
My guess on the launch customer is TNT. Only the large integrators have the money to pay what it takes to get this kind of freighter in today's market. Otherwise it may be a lessor with a large position in older A320's.
When aircraft values and lease rates eventually cycle back then we will see more replacements for 727-200F's with equipment such as the A320F and 757-200SF.
Itsnotfinals From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 28, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8429 times:
Quoting Lotsamiles (Reply 27): Actually, many aircraft are sold without engines. FedEx is selling two A310's this way right now. Your point on financing is valid but you can always pay cash...
thats exactly why I said bank financing. I know you can buy an airframe, but that isn't what this thread is about. Any airline that pays cash for an airplane is not too bright though.
Quoting Lotsamiles (Reply 27): This is up to the seller. Sometimes they will keep the reserves and this has to be reflected in the price as the buyer will eventually be stuck with a shortfall up the next qualifying event.
That would be pretty useless though since it makes the aircraft a lot more marketable becuase you are basically wiping out the engine depreciation. You would get a much better sale by conveying the reserrves versus taking the cash out of escrow.
I had a chance to look into purchasing some 727's in Austrailia that were "where is as is" for a client back in the 90's but we steered very clear of them
Monteycarlos From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2095 posts, RR: 41 Reply 29, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 7601 times:
One of the benefits of having an A320 freighter is in the ability for it to carry a modified LD3 in the lower deck. This makes it quite useful for bulk load trans-ships for operators over the 733SF or 734SF's.
Quoting Zeke (Reply 22): Main deck : 13 x 88x125x82
Lower deck : 10 x LD-3-45W (60.4x61.5x45")
If I'm not mistaken, that will enable the A321 to carry 13 AAA containers (I would suspect some of the positions to be only for a modified weight AAA) giving it a large advantage over the 727-200LRF's which can only carry 12 (with one modified) with a payload of approximately 2-3 tonnes more?
Cost is an issue here - any A320 due for cargo conversion will probably need a 'C' check before and then the door modification. The frame cost, maintenance check and the subsequent door mod will be very costly.
Warszawa From United States, joined Nov 2003, 722 posts, RR: 9 Reply 30, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6466 times:
My guess is DHL (Europe Division), or Fedex here in the USA.
UPS hasnt the need for 320's (domestic capacity is fine for now - if anything they'd obtain more 757's or 767's for their domestic network). DHL here in the USA is fine (ABX Air certainly wont be replacing their DC-9's with A320's, and they're mainly concerned about obtaining more 762ER's - Astar Air Cargo has no need for 320's in the US, despite slowly retiring the A300B2's). ABX Air retired their DC-86's except a couple (only one operates scheduled flights, ILN-DTW-ILN 5x weekly night ops) - the 320's wouldn't replace these.
Whats the deal with Fedex's 757's? As far as I remember, that one 752' they obtained is still sitting in MEM, parked, no conversion, and of course no repaint. Anyone know the schedule on that aircraft?
Part of me believes Fedex may be leaning toward the 320's now as the primary 727 replacement, but will still add some (though scarce and difficult to obtain) 757's to their fleet. Capacity wise, the 320 would more resemble the 727's capacity. The 757, slightly overkill in some markets currently served by Fedex 727's (including my own market, FNT).
TNT, ehh, doubtful they're expanding -that- significantly to justify such an amount of 320F's, so no.
Flying a plane is no diff. from riding a bicycle. Its just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -'Airplane'
MauriceB From Aruba, joined Aug 2004, 2142 posts, RR: 40 Reply 32, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5627 times:
If i could bet i would bet on TNT, because they are rapidly expanding, and at the moment they fly 2 different types of narrow body's, 10 737-300's, and 16 Avro jets, which makes 26, 30 A320's makes perfect sence in that case. It would be cheaper to fly 1 type which is some what bigger then the 2 they are flying, + they are having some trouble with the 737's lately.
All the other airlines actually don't need the A320's at the moment.
FX orderd the 757 as an 727 replacement
UPS isn't likely to go to quite small cargo planes, its just not theire biggest segment.
DHL doesn't need the A320 at the moment.as the bigger 757's are doing fine.
''A.net just like flying, but without the peanuts. doesn't bother me , i never eat peanuts on flights!
Zeke From Hong Kong SAR, PRC, joined Dec 2006, 4701 posts, RR: 65 Reply 33, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5493 times:
The 320PF/321PF are only due to enter service 2010, either new 320 or 321 frames would be available then, to get a new airframe now, you would need to get the 321PF.
The 319/321 line in XFW does not have as much of a backlog as the 320 line in TLS.
Cathay Pacific wins Airline of the Year 2009 Award. Great service. Great people. Great fares.
Columba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 5601 posts, RR: 5 Reply 35, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4895 times:
Quoting FCKC (Reply 15): I will not be surprised if the first A320s from Lufthansa will get a second live as freighters.
Well LH has just ordered a batch of new A319s, A320s and A321s and they will not only replace older 737s but also the first A320s so older LH aircraft will be on the market soon.
Quoting Warszawa (Reply 30): My guess is DHL (Europe Division), or Fedex here in the USA.
UPS hasnt the need for 320's (domestic capacity is fine for now - if anything they'd obtain more 757's or 767's for their domestic network). DHL here in the USA is fine (ABX Air certainly wont be replacing their DC-9's with A320's, and they're mainly concerned about obtaining more 762ER's - Astar Air Cargo has no need for 320's in the US, despite slowly retiring the A300B2's). ABX Air retired their DC-86's except a couple (only one operates scheduled flights, ILN-DTW-ILN 5x weekly night ops) - the 320's wouldn't replace these.
Whats the deal with Fedex's 757's? As far as I remember, that one 752' they obtained is still sitting in MEM, parked, no conversion, and of course no repaint. Anyone know the schedule on that aircraft?
Part of me believes Fedex may be leaning toward the 320's now as the primary 727 replacement, but will still add some (though scarce and difficult to obtain) 757's to their fleet. Capacity wise, the 320 would more resemble the 727's capacity. The 757, slightly overkill in some markets currently served by Fedex 727's (including my own market, FNT).
TNT, ehh, doubtful they're expanding -that- significantly to justify such an amount of 320F's, so no.
You seem to be right. I believe too that the 757 is too big to replace the 727 on many routes so a mixed 757F and A320F fleet seem to be the best option for Fedex.
The number of aircraft ordered suggest either Fedex or UPS being the customer.
Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
Stitch From United States, joined Jul 2005, 15860 posts, RR: 64 Reply 36, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4780 times:
Quoting ThePRGuy (Reply 31): But why would they want an ancient aircraft as part of a new conversion service?
Because they're inexpensive to purchase. The conversion cost will add a few million and then the plane needs to generate positive revenue. And even "ancient" A320s are still mighty good planes, even with high cycle times on them, provided they were kept in good mechanical condition (which the ones chosen for conversion likely were).
Quote: Are these aircraft going to be new off the production line and converted, or are they used and "done with airline" models?
Columba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 5601 posts, RR: 5 Reply 37, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4760 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 36): Because they're inexpensive to purchase. The conversion cost will add a few million and then the plane needs to generate positive revenue. And even "ancient" A320s are still mighty good planes, even with high cycle times on them, provided they were kept in good mechanical condition (which the ones chosen for conversion likely were).
I think after the conversion the fuselage will be as good as a new build and the high cycles do not matter since there are many contructional changes done on it.
Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
MCOflyer From United States, joined Jun 2006, 7894 posts, RR: 16 Reply 38, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4707 times:
My money is on FX or TNT being the customer for these a/c. Also one other aspect would be for used a/c for freighter conversions in big numbers which believes me to believe it is for FX or TNT.
Stitch From United States, joined Jul 2005, 15860 posts, RR: 64 Reply 39, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4707 times:
Quoting Columba (Reply 37): I think after the conversion the fuselage will be as good as a new build and the high cycles do not matter since there are many contructional changes done on it.
I wouldn't quite go that far, but I will agree with you that after a conversion and C or D check, the new operators of an A320PF should see a decade or more of reliable service from their planes. Al airframes last only so long, even when maintained properly, but indeed these planes will not be "rust buckets" when they're chosen for conversion.
Baron52ta From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 211 posts, RR: 0 Reply 40, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3473 times:
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 20): Something tells me the first customer could be FX
Based on a conversation I've had re FedEx getting them new Fred Smith has said the 320 would be a nice addition to the fleet but to expensive at the moment so if FX gets them it would be old frames converted
AmtrakGuy From United States, joined Sep 1999, 479 posts, RR: 0 Reply 41, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3385 times:
What about NWA? They're letting go some of their older A320 (lease planes?) -- since NWA flies all their freights on 747F, could they need smaller planes to make the final delivery from their Freight Hubs (MSP, ANC, NRT, and AMS)?
why would there be two doors on the A320F? you don't need a door on the aft cabin, there wouldn't even be enough room to get a loader in there. one door aft of L1 would be enough, especially since the airplane isn't THAT long.
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
Stitch From United States, joined Jul 2005, 15860 posts, RR: 64 Reply 43, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2773 times:
Quoting Cancidas (Reply 42): why would there be two doors on the A320F? you don't need a door on the aft cabin, there wouldn't even be enough room to get a loader in there. one door aft of L1 would be enough, especially since the airplane isn't THAT long.
Well these are just folks playing around with a graphics program, not a formal presentation.
FXMD11 From Thailand, joined Aug 2004, 181 posts, RR: 0 Reply 44, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2520 times:
Could it be for the new airline DPWN/ DHL and Lufthansa is going to establish? This pure freighter setup will be called NEWCO and is most likely home based in LEJ, DHL's new European Hub. Looking at the quantity and options this would make sense.
Columba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 5601 posts, RR: 5 Reply 45, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2457 times:
Quoting FXMD11 (Reply 44): Could it be for the new airline DPWN/ DHL and Lufthansa is going to establish? This pure freighter setup will be called NEWCO and is most likely home based in LEJ, DHL's new European Hub. Looking at the quantity and options this would make sense
"Newco" is just the working title it stands for "new company". The airline will have a different name.
The airline is supposed to fly long distance flights and the aircraft that are being evaluated are 777Fs and 747Fs.
The rumor is that decison is already done in favor for the 777F but this is just a rumor.
DHL might be a possible customer for the A320F though for intra European routes.
Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
ThePRGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 46, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2248 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 36):
Because they're inexpensive to purchase. The conversion cost will add a few million and then the plane needs to generate positive revenue. And even "ancient" A320s are still mighty good planes, even with high cycle times on them, provided they were kept in good mechanical condition (which the ones chosen for conversion likely were).
Yes, I understand this, hence snapping up the 757s 10 years ago. Simple fact is there aren't that many A320s lying about waiting to be picked up.
LTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 12127 posts, RR: 57 Reply 47, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1332 times:
Quoting Columba (Reply 45): "Newco" is just the working title it stands for "new company". The airline will have a different name.
The airline is supposed to fly long distance flights and the aircraft that are being evaluated are 777Fs and 747Fs.
Wasn't ER also considering the A380 for "Newco" before it was cancelled? I believe they even wanted to build a maintenance hangar in LEJ for the A380.
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Any airline that pays cash for an airplane is not too bright though.
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