FCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2146 posts, RR: 3 Posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9686 times:
Air & Cosmos reveals this week , the first A320F customer has signed for 30 + 18 options .
For the moment the name is not revealed.Probably will be at the roll out of the plane at Dresden next year.
Lumberton From United States, joined Jul 2005, 4131 posts, RR: 25 Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9603 times:
I knew Russian and EADS were in talks to do an A320F conversion program. I can't remember anything about a new build freighter based on the A320. Anyone?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
VV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 3853 posts, RR: 20 Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9575 times:
Quoting Lumberton (Reply 3): I knew Russian and EADS were in talks to do an A320F conversion program. I can't remember anything about a new build freighter based on the A320. Anyone?
This is also my recollection. I think that the agreement was a joint 50:50 between Irkut of Russia and EADS/Airbus with the conversion kits being made in Russia and the conversions made in both Germany and Russia.
OceansWorld From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9554 times:
Quoting Lumberton (Reply 3): I knew Russian and EADS were in talks to do an A320F conversion program. I can't remember anything about a new build freighter based on the A320. Anyone?
Here's an excerpt from a Flight International paper published less than two weeks ago.
Quote: Airbus initially estimated demand for A320 converted freighters at 400 units, but now considers 1,000 as a realistic figure. "We already have the first customer for these aircraft, while others are lining up," says an EADS executive.
Breiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1390 posts, RR: 3 Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9455 times:
Quoting VV701 (Reply 4): Quoting Lumberton (Reply 3):
I knew Russian and EADS were in talks to do an A320F conversion program. I can't remember anything about a new build freighter based on the A320. Anyone?
This is also my recollection. I think that the agreement was a joint 50:50 between Irkut of Russia and EADS/Airbus with the conversion kits being made in Russia and the conversions made in both Germany and Russia.
Correct. No new built A320F was considered so far to my knowledge.
Quoting OceansWorld (Reply 5): Quote:
Airbus initially estimated demand for A320 converted freighters at 400 units, but now considers 1,000 as a realistic figure. "We already have the first customer for these aircraft, while others are lining up," says an EADS executive.
Already in May 2006, the figure put forward by EFW Dresden was 900 units over 20 years with first converted ac flying in 2011.
Scarebus03 From Ireland, joined Apr 2005, 200 posts, RR: 2 Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9326 times:
I doubt if they are conversions as the value and demand for A320 airframes are too high to justify conversions. I would imagine they are in fact new orders as I can't see any real financial benefit in taking a relatively new aircraft model and spending the money to convert them versus, buying them as freighters directly in todays market. I would guess DHL as the 757's are getting long in the tooth and fuel costs are higher than they used to be.
Stitch From United States, joined Jul 2005, 16156 posts, RR: 64 Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9289 times:
Quoting Scarebus03 (Reply 8): I doubt if they are conversions as the value and demand for A320 airframes are too high to justify conversions.
Depends on the A320.
A320-100's are mighty cheap on the open market (around $5 million). A320-200 LGWs are worth about $12 million for a frame delivered in 1988 or $15 million for one delivered in 1990.
Ones under 10 years old are still worth a good bit ($30 to $45 million) and would likely not be candidates for conversion.
Edit
The latest Aircraft Value News had an article on this. Since it's a subscription service, you might not be able to get easy access to it, but here is what I feel is a relevant snippet:
Quote: The values of the oldest A320-200s range between $8-12 million but such aircraft can have a high number of hours and cycles which make them less desirable for freighter conversion.Should an older passenger A320 be able to generate $150- 170,000 per month in lease rentals, as a freighter there should be sufficient premium over the medium term as to make conversion worthwhile. A book value of $5-8 million combined with the cost of conversion would make a rental in excess of $200,000 per month an attractive proposition.
OceansWorld From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9116 times:
Quoting Breiz (Reply 7): Already in May 2006, the figure put forward by EFW Dresden was 900 units over 20 years with first converted ac flying in 2011.
Probably, but my aim was to quote an as recent as possible article in which they mention the conversion.
FCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2146 posts, RR: 3 Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8989 times:
Yes of course these 30 + 18 frames are conversion from pax aircraft, thus second hand planes.
Question : Where will they come from ? Probably the oldest A320s still flying , and probably perhaps the first A320-100s still flying at Air France (Ex Air Inter) , as the French airline , has ordered new A320s , not necessary for growth , but also maybe to replace the oldest frames.
I will not be surprised if the first A320s from Lufthansa will get a second live as freighters.
If as Flight Int'l wrote , airlines are lined up to get A320Fs , this programm seems to have a bright future.
The first conversion will take place at Dresden , but after conversions will be done at Moscow.
Scarebus03 From Ireland, joined Apr 2005, 200 posts, RR: 2 Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8989 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 9): A320-100's are mighty cheap on the open market (around $5 million). A320-200 LGWs are worth about $12 million for a frame delivered in 1988 or $15 million for one delivered in 1990.
Stitch,
The -100 I think we can forget about as they are nearly extinct and any modification program would be fairly extensive and costly.
The older -200's are still worth a pretty penny in lease rates due to the current market demand and coupled with high cycles (as your article says) makes them unattractive for conversion. Another disadvantage would be the engine types on the older -200's as the CFM -5A's and V2500-A1's burn more and are less reliable than the later models.Although in theory the freighter should do less cycles than the passenger variant.
It would make no sense to convert old aircraft in todays market only to negate the advantage in fuel and maintenance costs which has to be the main driver behind the A320F.
A substantial amount of the older models end up with charter airlines to take advantage of the longer sectors which in turn increases the flight hours but lowers the cycles flown. This keeps older aircraft viable for charter operators. And lessors have much more flexibility in today's market if they remain as passenger aircraft.
Either way it's about time a freighter version of the A320 came on the market as it is an ideal replacement for the 727F's (which incidentally the A320 was originally designed to replace).
I always thought the A320 would make a fine short/medium haul freighter.
Oh how I miss the old 727F's dotted around every airport in Europe! They really added character to the place.
MCOflyer From United States, joined Jun 2006, 8107 posts, RR: 16 Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8979 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 14): Also, it looks like the A320-200 would be the more desirable freighter prospect.
With more powerful engines and range it would make sense for the 200 to be selected as well. How much range will a 100F have should someone convert one? Also, would this carrier have a fleet of 733 or 721F?
Lumberton From United States, joined Jul 2005, 4131 posts, RR: 25 Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8909 times:
Quoting FCKC (Reply 15): Question : Where will they come from ?
IMO, that is THE question.
Quoting Scarebus03 (Reply 16): The older -200's are still worth a pretty penny in lease rates due to the current market demand and coupled with high cycles (as your article says) makes them unattractive for conversion.
Given Airbus' current backlog for new production pax models, the scarcity of -200s available for lease, this freighter program could well see significant delays until the additional production (i.e., 40 per month) comes on line.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
FlagshipAZ From United States, joined Jan 2001, 3408 posts, RR: 19 Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8843 times:
It wouldn't be the -100 series, as there were only 21 built and among the first A320s built. These passenger-to-freighter conversions are all -200 series.
Could it be UPS is the 1st customer for the A320F?
Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
LTU932 From Mexico, joined Jan 2006, 12314 posts, RR: 57 Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 8816 times:
Quoting FlagshipAZ (Reply 19): Could it be UPS is the 1st customer for the A320F?
Something tells me the first customer could be FX. I don't see 5X going back to operating narrowbody aircraft smaller than the 757s, since they phased out their 727QFs.
Zu fettigem Käse und kalorienreicher Kunstmarmelade, nehme ich einen Doppelkorn.
Itsnotfinals From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 8791 times:
Quoting FCKC (Reply 15): Yes of course these 30 + 18 frames are conversion from pax aircraft, thus second hand planes.
what a bummer they didn't get any engines with the deal
I wish anetters would quit misusing the term "frames" for used aircraft, you don't buy the engine seperately. they are buying Aircraft or Airplanes no just the frames.
Zeke From Hong Kong SAR, PRC, joined Dec 2006, 4808 posts, RR: 65 Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 8721 times:
The two models that are being looked at are the A320PF and the A321PF, both will feature a 86"x121" forward main deck cargo door, AFAIK the A320-200 and A321-100/200 will be converted to a freighter, but not the A320-100.
The A320PF has the following characteristics
MTOW 73.5 to 77.0 t
MLW 64.5 to 66 t
MZFW 60.5 to 62.5 t
Structural payload 21 to 23 t
Fuel 23860 l
Engine CFM56-5A or V2500
Gunsontheroof From United States, joined Jan 2006, 2969 posts, RR: 17 Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 8708 times:
Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 21):
I wish anetters would quit misusing the term "frames" for used aircraft, you don't buy the engine seperately. they are buying Aircraft or Airplanes no just the frames.
Well, it's no secret that you're picky about semantics...not a big deal to most of us.
It'd be nice if FedEx, UPS or DHL picked some of these up, I'd like to see these frames on finals at my local airports on a regular basis!
Zeke From Hong Kong SAR, PRC, joined Dec 2006, 4808 posts, RR: 65 Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 8688 times:
Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 21):
I wish anetters would quit misusing the term "frames" for used aircraft, you don't buy the engine separately. they are buying Aircraft or Airplanes no just the frames.
You are incorrect, many airlines do in fact do that, buy or lease engines and/or APU separately.
Cathay Pacific wins Airline of the Year 2009 Award. Great service. Great people. Great fares.
Itsnotfinals From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 25, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 8675 times:
Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 23): Well, it's no secret that you're picky about semantics...not a big deal to most of us.
I am not picky, I just dumbfounded when aviation enthusiasts use incorrect terms like "finals" and this case, "frames"
cheers
26 Itsnotfinals: You are not quite correct. When you purchase the plane you need to purchase the engines at the same time on a used aircraft. Since I have purchased s
27 Lotsamiles: Actually, many aircraft are sold without engines. FedEx is selling two A310's this way right now. Your point on financing is valid but you can always
28 Itsnotfinals: thats exactly why I said bank financing. I know you can buy an airframe, but that isn't what this thread is about. Any airline that pays cash for
29 Monteycarlos: One of the benefits of having an A320 freighter is in the ability for it to carry a modified LD3 in the lower deck. This makes it quite useful for bul
30 Warszawa: My guess is DHL (Europe Division), or Fedex here in the USA. UPS hasnt the need for 320's (domestic capacity is fine for now - if anything they'd obta
31 ThePRGuy: But why would they want an ancient aircraft as part of a new conversion service? Are these aircraft going to be new off the production line and conve
32 MauriceB: If i could bet i would bet on TNT, because they are rapidly expanding, and at the moment they fly 2 different types of narrow body's, 10 737-300's, an
33 Zeke: The 320PF/321PF are only due to enter service 2010, either new 320 or 321 frames would be available then, to get a new airframe now, you would need to
35 Columba: Well LH has just ordered a batch of new A319s, A320s and A321s and they will not only replace older 737s but also the first A320s so older LH aircraf
36 Stitch: Because they're inexpensive to purchase. The conversion cost will add a few million and then the plane needs to generate positive revenue. And even "
37 Columba: I think after the conversion the fuselage will be as good as a new build and the high cycles do not matter since there are many contructional changes
38 MCOflyer: My money is on FX or TNT being the customer for these a/c. Also one other aspect would be for used a/c for freighter conversions in big numbers which
39 Stitch: I wouldn't quite go that far, but I will agree with you that after a conversion and C or D check, the new operators of an A320PF should see a decade
40 Baron52ta: Based on a conversation I've had re FedEx getting them new Fred Smith has said the 320 would be a nice addition to the fleet but to expensive at the
41 AmtrakGuy: What about NWA? They're letting go some of their older A320 (lease planes?) -- since NWA flies all their freights on 747F, could they need smaller pla
42 Cancidas: why would there be two doors on the A320F? you don't need a door on the aft cabin, there wouldn't even be enough room to get a loader in there. one d
43 Stitch: Well these are just folks playing around with a graphics program, not a formal presentation.
44 FXMD11: Could it be for the new airline DPWN/ DHL and Lufthansa is going to establish? This pure freighter setup will be called NEWCO and is most likely home
45 Columba: "Newco" is just the working title it stands for "new company". The airline will have a different name. The airline is supposed to fly long distance f
46 ThePRGuy: Yes, I understand this, hence snapping up the 757s 10 years ago. Simple fact is there aren't that many A320s lying about waiting to be picked up. Ale
47 LTU932: Wasn't ER also considering the A380 for "Newco" before it was cancelled? I believe they even wanted to build a maintenance hangar in LEJ for the A380
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