Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
GRR Looking At Passenger Leakage To Other Airports  
User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3100 posts, RR: 10
Posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4768 times:

I don't agree with all the charges printed in this article linked below.

"They hope the study will convince airlines to provide more flights to more destinations"

"It all goes back to the fact that we're truly underserved."

Huh, tell that to MKG & MBL. Maybe they will shed some tears.

GRR currently has flights to:

Atlanta
Chicago
Cincinnati
Cleveland
Dallas
Denver
Detroit
Houston
Memphis
Milwaukee
Minneapolis
New York
Washington, DC

I do agree that GRR is crippled with high costs without the existence of a low fare carrier. That they need without a doubt. But I don't see how additional flights to more destinations at high prices will help that much.

Courtesy: Grand Rapids Press

Airport Aiming To Keep Travelers Close To Home

http://www.mlive.com/grandrapids/sto...ews-38/1188474906288970.xml&coll=6

56 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4049 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4724 times:

Quoting KarlB737 (Thread starter):
GRR currently has flights to:

Atlanta
Chicago
Cincinnati
Cleveland
Dallas
Denver
Detroit
Houston
Memphis
Milwaukee
Minneapolis
New York
Washington, DC

It would be nice if DL could come in and add an SLC flight to GRR. While it might not help the costs until WN or B6 see fit to give it a try, at least DL could give west Michigan some more west coast options than DEN on UA, and end the back-track to CVG or ATL.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7551 posts, RR: 28
Reply 2, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4690 times:

Just a standard leakage study that all small & mid-size airports perform on a regular basis to show that the local airport administration is doing their job. There is nothing that stands out in making this something out of the ordinary.

Granted, GRR actually ends up being a beneficiary of leakage from other airports - primarily MKG, AZO, & LAN; and to a lesser extent TVC & SBN. So they really shouldn't complain too much about leakage to DTW, ORD, and to a lesser extent FNT.

True the missing piece is a low fare carrier primarily for the leisure markets. They pretty much have a generous amount of service from the network carriers.

DL SLC-GRR - I would highly doubt it as that seems like a rather low & thin route, even too thin for a 70 seater on a regular basis.

As for the LCC's -
WN - very doubt as the proximity is too close for MDW & the market is too small to concentrate a number of frequent short haul routes. Additionally WN is not in the business of opening a station just for Florida junk-fare/low yield service.

B6 - a year or two ago I would've said possible, now under the new leadership and business plan I would say doubtful. B6 is now looking for sure-thing, easy entry, easy revenue / big markets. For the time being, GRR seems like it would require too much effort at this point to make it a success.

FL - possible at some point, but they don't want to risk canabalizing FNT & DTW stations. Plus ATL is essentially max-ed out.

Its not so much that GRR wouldn't work in some of these instances, it is just their are higher priorities & other markets that are more of a sure-thing that trump GRR.

Its very often the same story from the same types of airports ---- "We are underserved!"


User currently offlineAccess-Air From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1939 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4596 times:

The biggest problem with that list is that most of thise cities are just MEGA Hubs for the airlines....Not a lot of O&D routes to popular Leisure destinations. maybe if Alleginat popped in there with flights to FLL PHX LAS or SFB they might bring some passengers in that might ordinarily fiunnel thru those hubs....
And like the philosophy of Allegiant, you dont fly everyday so you maximize the passenger loads. That philosophy is starting to makemore sense to me especially when it concerns the leisure traffic market.
Leisure trafiic is more fickle and inconsistant that Busniess travel whioch for the most part is steadier.
Inmy Opinion ALL airlines should look to changing their route maps to become more linear and stop relying on all htis HUB Crap for all their services. With all the problems with needing more and more miles to redem frequent flyer space, people are apt to fly on another carrier if it will save them a few dollars...Customer loyalty may be a wasy of life for some but, I will tell you that if its cheaper some place else they will go with cheaper...

Just what I thought that I would add....If its all wrong well so be it. I just thought I waould add a comment to two...

Access-Air



Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3262 posts, RR: 35
Reply 4, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4564 times:

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 2):
WN - very doubt as the proximity is too close for MDW & the market is too small to concentrate a number of frequent short haul routes. Additionally WN is not in the business of opening a station just for Florida junk-fare/low yield service.

There are over 2.5 million people within a one hour drive of GRR. MDW is not too close. For most of those people MDW is 2.5-3.5 hours away in good traffic. WN will add a non-Detroit area Michigan destination in the next five years. The question is, will it be GRR. (Believe it or not, 3.5 million people live within one hour of LAN). Southwest's model is evolving. I think you are going to see them entering more markets with less of a resource commitment over then next 10 years. So instead of coming with 3-4 gates and 20 departures off the bat, they may to 1-2 gates with 6-12 flights per day. They need to get into some smaller, higher yielding markets as their costs rise. Plus they need to get a foothold in new markets before the other LCC's get too firmly established in them.

I think we've all been conditioned to believe that GRR is a small market that can't support LCC service to multiple destinations. The truth is that GRR is potentially a large market that LCC's have either been too preoccupied to enter or too afraid of NW. Across all demographics, GRR (and West Michigan) is larger, wealthier and more economically diverse than dozens of markets that get low fare service today. Plus, it is more isolated than many other locations. The ONLY reason people in West Michigan drive to MDW or DTW for low fare is because they have no choice. The day that and LCC shows up in GRR, you will hear a big sucking sound of traffic returning.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 2):
FL - possible at some point, but they don't want to risk canabalizing FNT & DTW stations. Plus ATL is essentially max-ed out.

FL has avoided GRR thus far out of concern for NW's over-the-top reaction. GRR is NW's #1 connecting market through DTW. NW will fight vigorously to maintain its presence in the market. That combined with Delta's certain reaction and FL looks at a great potential market that could have a lot of bloodshed in the beginning. Thus far, FL has chosen to enter markets with slightly less competitive risk. That will change as it picks through the other low-hanging fruit. Plus the NW buy-in of YX may put FL in a feisty mood. GRR would be a strong retaliatory move.

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 3):
Inmy Opinion ALL airlines should look to changing their route maps to become more linear and stop relying on all htis HUB Crap for all their services.



Quoting Access-Air (Reply 3):
Just what I thought that I would add....If its all wrong well so be it. I just thought I waould add a comment to two...

It is all wrong.

Seriously, you may have noticed that during the bad times legacy carriers were experimenting with a lot more point-to-point flying. Over the past couple of years , most have rededicated themselves to their hubs. The result has been a return to profitability. It's not the only reason, but don't kid yourself, it's a big part of it.

[Edited 2007-09-06 15:55:57]

User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7551 posts, RR: 28
Reply 5, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4551 times:

NW does fly to Orlando MCO seasonally. Operates weekend-only during the shoulder season, daily during peak season, and does not operate during the summer.

The only real p2p routes out of GRR are to: LGA, DCA, MCO - as you mention everything else is to another airline's hub.

I agree the issue with a market like GRR for leisure desinations is the sporadic & inconsistent demand. It is not a huge market to begin with so its as if a flight to MCO, LAS, TPA, FLL, RSW, etc. could be filled every day, year-round. Even during peak season, the demand is heavily tilted to a specific 3-4 weeks during the year and even then specific days of the week.

Additionally, leisure demand to the traditional Florida markets drops to near nothing in the off-season. People in Michigan love to vacation in Michigan during the summer months, as with the Great Lakes and the nice summer temperatures its a nice place to be. Again, making it more difficult for FL to make GRR where they heavily rely on demand to leisure destinations in the Southeast.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7551 posts, RR: 28
Reply 6, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4527 times:

Actually I agree with you even though we are sort of saying different things. I'm taking the short term perspective where you are looking for at the long term as the LCC's continue to evolve.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 4):
There are over 2.5 million people within a one hour drive of GRR. MDW is not too close. For most of those people MDW is 2.5-3.5 hours away in good traffic

I agree, its a nasty drive, but people will do it to save a buck. For a weekend trip its not really feasible, but for 1-2 week trips and several hundred dollar savings, its worth it.

The proximity to MDW meant, that WN flying MDW-GRR is possble, however probably not going to attract a ton of O&D as that is more of a driving route. AA/UA operate GRR-ORD more or less to offer worldwide connections.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 4):
I think you are going to see them entering more markets with less of a resource commitment over then next 10 years. So instead of coming with 3-4 gates and 20 departures off the bat, they may to 1-2 gates with 6-12 flights per day. They need to get into some smaller, higher yielding markets as their costs rise.

Under their current plan, I don't see GRR happening. If they are willing to open a station with 6-8 flights sure, but there is no way they could come in with 20+ flights and not lose money hand over fist. Something like 2-3x MDW, 1x BWI, 1x MCO, 1x TPA would be about all they could initially make work. (Which actually looks more like an FL route structure)

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 4):
That will change as it picks through the other low-hanging fruit.

Agree. Its not so much that GRR isn't bad, its more or less how it compares to larger more robust markets. As we've seen the LCC's have backed off from going into the GRR's or the MDT's for now to duke it out for marketshare in the Mega O&D markets like DEN, PHL, CLT, BWI, etc.


User currently onlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3936 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4522 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

i like what the UM grad said......."if i can save $151 dollars, I'll drive 3 1/2 hours to ORD/MDW/DTW".

Lets use ORD as an example.........

So, you start saving with $151 dollars minus $50 dollars for gas, $8 for the r/t turnpike to avoid the traffic, then anywhere from $13-$26/day for parking, we'll say $13 b/c he likes to take the train in and watch the planes. For a 3 day business trip thats another $39 dollars. So now we are down to $54 saved. But of course with a driving time of almost 7 hours, he most likely will stop at Burger King in Benton Harbor on the way down for breakfast and Taco Bell in Portage, IN to have something to eat on the way home. Figure 6 dollars each meal, now he has only saved $42 dollars by driving to/from GRR to Chicago. I think saving the time spent on traveling is worth $42.



okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3262 posts, RR: 35
Reply 8, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4502 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 6):
Under their current plan, I don't see GRR happening. If they are willing to open a station with 6-8 flights sure, but there is no way they could come in with 20+ flights and not lose money hand over fist. Something like 2-3x MDW, 1x BWI, 1x MCO, 1x TPA would be about all they could initially make work. (Which actually looks more like an FL route structure)

The thing is, they've pretty much only opened really large stations lately. But they have many smaller stations, and they will eventually open more. There are only so many IAD's, DEN's, SFO's and PHL's to open.

GRR is the 38th largest DMA (Designated Market Area) in the U.S. There are 1.975 million people who's PRIMARY "market" is Grand Rapids, meaning G.R. is where they shop, go to the hospital, etc... This area does not include Lansing or the Northern L.P., both of which would likely use GRR more heavily if a LCC was there. There are plenty of WN markets that are much smaller that support a lot more flying than what you are talking about.

My point is that everybody has been conditioned into thinking that GRR can't support the same degree of service that a place like Norfolk/Newport News can (which, by the way, has a DMA of 1.884 million). Now that region has a lot of Navy related traffic, to be sure..but it is supporting TWO airports with significant legacy and LCC air service. West Michigan can absolutely support one, if any LCC gets the balls to try it.

I've actually had this conversation with airline planners from all types of carriers many times. They all agree that it is an opportunity, but no one seems to want to try it first and no on seems to want to get in NW's cross hairs. Those barriers are falling though. It's only a matter of time.


User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4492 times:

GRR desperatly needs to expand then attract FL. Right now I guarantee you FNT is capturing some GRR traffic

User currently offlineAccess-Air From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1939 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4492 times:

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 4):
Quoting Access-Air (Reply 3):
Just what I thought that I would add....If its all wrong well so be it. I just thought I waould add a comment to two...

It is all wrong.

Well gee thanks....I guess next time I'll just keep my trap shut and let everyone else micro analize it all themselves....

Access-Air



Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
User currently onlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3936 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4467 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

so GRR loses pax to FNT, but we gain pax from AZO, so its a wash.


okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3262 posts, RR: 35
Reply 12, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4421 times:

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 10):

Well gee thanks....I guess next time I'll just keep my trap shut and let everyone else micro analize it all themselves....

Access-Air

Aww, come on now. I put the smiley face there for a reason!

I respect your ideas, I was just giving you a more-informed point of view. There is nothing wrong with your views per se, I just don't think they are based on a complete understanding of industry and airline network dynamics. The only way you'd have that sort of understanding is if you had spent time working in the network planning areas of the industry. Anyone who hasn't had that kind of experience simply doesn't have all the tools. It's not a personal attack...just trying to add some context to the discussions.


User currently offlineTjwgrr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2433 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4357 times:

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 4):
Plus the NW buy-in of YX may put FL in a feisty mood. GRR would be a strong retaliatory move.



Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 6):
The proximity to MDW meant, that WN flying MDW-GRR is possble, however probably not going to attract a ton of O&D as that is more of a driving route. AA/UA operate GRR-ORD more or less to offer worldwide connections.

Under their current plan, I don't see GRR happening. If they are willing to open a station with 6-8 flights sure, but there is no way they could come in with 20+ flights and not lose money hand over fist. Something like 2-3x MDW, 1x BWI, 1x MCO, 1x TPA would be about all they could initially make work. (Which actually looks more like an FL route structure)

If and when GRR sees an LCC, I see FL doing it. 2-3x ATL, 1x BWI, 1x MCO, perhaps seasonal to TPA, and RSW.

What about Skybus expanding into the upper Midwest? Weren't there rumors at one time? Us cheap Dutch folks in W. Michigan would just LOVE those low fares......



Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
User currently offlinePaladin87 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4331 times:

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 8):
GRR is the 38th largest DMA (Designated Market Area) in the U.S. There are 1.975 million people who's PRIMARY "market" is Grand Rapids, meaning G.R. is where they shop, go to the hospital, etc... This area does not include Lansing or the Northern L.P., both of which would likely use GRR more heavily if a LCC was there. There are plenty of WN markets that are much smaller that support a lot more flying than what you are talking about.

Where did you get 1.975 million? The entire area including Holland and MKG only totals 1.088 million(with another airport in there as well. DTW is almost as close to LAN as GRR and there is no direct route from the Northern L.P. to GRR but there is an interstate to DTW and FNT as well as MBS. AZO is to the south, so you can't count that area. The area directly north is sparsely populated until you get to TVC. Maybe we had a population boom?

Quoting Tjwgrr (Reply 13):
If and when GRR sees an LCC, I see FL doing it. 2-3x ATL, 1x BWI, 1x MCO, perhaps seasonal to TPA, and RSW.

Big IF> DL can only manage 4x all CRJs, BWI has some traffic but varies drastically, MCO is good but fares are really low( I could book one right now for $248 RT). The most consistant markets, without nonstops, are CLT and PHL.


User currently offlineTjwgrr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2433 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4299 times:

Quoting Paladin87 (Reply 14):
The most consistant markets, without nonstops, are CLT and PHL.

I remember seeing BOS and LAS were above CLT and PHL for total pax out of GRR.



Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
User currently onlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3936 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4286 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

i'm still surprised that we dont have service from GRR-BOS.

I believe most population numbers include AZO. Basically the same distnace as some of MKG, and with the South Beltline available, that makes it even easier for those pax coming from teh south. No longer need to travel down 44th street.



okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4049 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4257 times:

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 2):
DL SLC-GRR - I would highly doubt it as that seems like a rather low & thin route, even too thin for a 70 seater on a regular basis.

Keep in mind that DL has had positive results as they've tried similar sized markets (IND, CMH, BNA, MKE) in the greater region with SLC flights. CMH, BNA have even gone mainline or at least for a period of time. Don't bet against it.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 4):
The truth is that GRR is potentially a large market that LCC's have either been too preoccupied to enter or too afraid of NW. Across all demographics, GRR (and West Michigan) is larger, wealthier and more economically diverse than dozens of markets that get low fare service today. Plus, it is more isolated than many other locations. The ONLY reason people in West Michigan drive to MDW or DTW for low fare is because they have no choice. The day that and LCC shows up in GRR, you will hear a big sucking sound of traffic returning.

 checkmark  Not everything in Michigan revolves around DTW or nearby FNT. While the northwest part of the L.P. is more sparsely populated, it does continue to grow, and GRR is an under-served airport.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 8):
There are plenty of WN markets that are much smaller that support a lot more flying than what you are talking about.

 checkmark  GEG and BOI out here in my neck of the woods come to mind. WN is very big in both. If WN were to march into GRR and call NWs bluff, they could in all likelihood successfully serve: MDW, STL, IND, PIT, BWI, PVD, as well as MCO. If WN did seasonal service (something they WILL NOT DO) they could throw in TPA, RSW, FLL and PBI.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3262 posts, RR: 35
Reply 18, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4240 times:

Quoting Paladin87 (Reply 14):

Where did you get 1.975 million? The entire area including Holland and MKG only totals 1.088 million(with another airport in there as well. DTW is almost as close to LAN as GRR and there is no direct route from the Northern L.P. to GRR but there is an interstate to DTW and FNT as well as MBS. AZO is to the south, so you can't count that area. The area directly north is sparsely populated until you get to TVC. Maybe we had a population boom?

1.95 million is the U.S Census Bureau DMA population. It is a broader definition than a MSA in that it shows other areas "under the market influence" of the main market (Grand Rapids, in this case). Kalamazoo, Battle Creek, Holland, Muskegon and many of the smaller communities in and around the region are all part of the G.R. DMA. Think of it this way...if they share TV stations, they are probably in the same DMA.

DMA's work in this context because they show where people would likely shop, eat, travel from if given appropriate options. A Kalamazoo resident is more likely to drive to GRR IF the options are superior to AZO and competitive with MDW. Grand Rapids becomes much bigger under this context, and since this is how passengers would likely respond, it is very relevant here.


User currently offlinePaladin87 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4218 times:

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 18):
DMA's work in this context because they show where people would likely shop, eat, travel from if given appropriate options. A Kalamazoo resident is more likely to drive to GRR IF the options are superior to AZO and competitive with MDW. Grand Rapids becomes much bigger under this context, and since this is how passengers would likely respond, it is very relevant here.

Kalamazoo and Battle creek Area are comparable in size to Grand Rapids and 50 miles away and have all the same amenities, hospitals,restaurants malls theaters and performing art complexes. There is no need to travel back and forth. They even have their own airport, with the same airlines.NWA,UAL,DAL.,AA and others (6 flights to DTW, 8, to ORD,3 to CVG1 to MSP 1 to ATL and so forth). A 50 mile drive would hardly be worth it unless the savings were sizable. The options are not superior. I use AZO as a back up only, because hassle isn't worth it.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7551 posts, RR: 28
Reply 20, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4149 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 17):
Keep in mind that DL has had positive results as they've tried similar sized markets (IND, CMH, BNA, MKE) in the greater region with SLC flights

All of those markets are much larger than GRR, and also do have as many other airports inside the same general vicinitythat offer service to hub locations (LAN, AZO, MKG)

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 17):
GEG and BOI out here in my neck of the woods come to mind. WN is very big in both. If WN were to march into GRR and call NWs bluff, they could in all likelihood successfully serve: MDW, STL, IND, PIT, BWI, PVD, as well as MCO. If WN did seasonal service (something they WILL NOT DO) they could throw in TPA, RSW, FLL and PBI.

No way could WN successfully service all of those destinations. Heck, they don't even serve IND, PIT, PVD, TPA, RSW, FLL, or PBI from DTW!


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4049 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4121 times:

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 20):
No way could WN successfully service all of those destinations. Heck, they don't even serve IND, PIT, PVD, TPA, RSW, FLL, or PBI from DTW!

WN has just steered clear of Michigan in general since they steer clear of NW. Look at MSP and MEM for example. WN has just had bigger fish to fry with UA hubs for the plucking over the last couple of years and it has been a feast for them. Give them time, they'll figure out how to do combat with NW on their turf, and as Jetlanta has eluded to, "there will be a sucking sound sooner or later" since GRR is the best spot for an LCC to invade the territory.  twocents 



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4117 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 17):
GEG and BOI out here in my neck of the woods come to mind. WN is very big in both. If WN were to march into GRR and call NWs bluff, they could in all likelihood successfully serve: MDW, STL, IND, PIT, BWI, PVD, as well as MCO. If WN did seasonal service (something they WILL NOT DO) they could throw in TPA, RSW, FLL and PBI.

well i doubt WN would fly a 73G 110 miles to MDW.

If WN served GRR< they would fly to the usual suspects: MCO, BWI, PHX, LAS and they would probably want something in the middle to gice pax acces to the midwest. Tht would be tricky...BNA, STL MCI would all be a stretch.


User currently offlineAirbusaddict From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 415 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4106 times:

Quote:
I don't agree with all the charges printed in this article linked below.

"They hope the study will convince airlines to provide more flights to more destinations"

"It all goes back to the fact that we're truly underserved."

Huh, tell that to MKG & MBL. Maybe they will shed some tears.

GRR currently has flights to:

Atlanta
Chicago
Cincinnati
Cleveland
Dallas
Denver
Detroit
Houston
Memphis
Milwaukee
Minneapolis
New York
Washington, DC

I do agree that GRR is crippled with high costs without the existence of a low fare carrier. That they need without a doubt. But I don't see how additional flights to more destinations at high prices will help that much.


If they think Grand Rapids is under served even for its size, i wouldnt be crying, look at my homeland of FSD!!!
Service:
Minneapolis
Salt Lake
Atlanta
Cincinnati
Denver
Chicago
Mesa/Phoenix
Las Vegas
Orlando

That is only maybe 28 flights a day for a population of 230,000 people.
Yes, Nine Cities, but with how much traffic we lose to WN, or any of the other airlines down at Omaha, its pretty sad...



Finally F9! FSD-DEN 7-4-2011
User currently offlineKcrwFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3805 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4088 times:

Quoting Airbusaddict (Reply 23):
If they think Grand Rapids is under served even for its size, i wouldnt be crying, look at my homeland of FSD!!!
Service:
Minneapolis
Salt Lake
Atlanta
Cincinnati
Denver
Chicago
Mesa/Phoenix
Las Vegas
Orlando

That is only maybe 28 flights a day for a population of 230,000 people.

The metro population of FSD is 230,000 people.
The metro population of GRR is 770,000 people.



You've got 9 cities; some of which have mainline flights. A 733 is comparable to 2x crj and 1x e135. That makes an impact on your amount of daily flights. FSD is doing just fine for its population.

Of course you loose some to WN at OMA. Who isnt loosing some traffic to a LCC at another airport these days?


25 Airbusaddict : Mainline is: Northwest Airbus' and United 737's to Denver. Uh, MSP, ATL, LAS. (of course those are major, but nothing said i was limited!) United want
26 Tjwgrr : Highway miles from GRR to MDW is almost 190 and is 3+ hours road time depending on traffic. WN flies IND-MDW which is roughly the same land distance
27 Jetlanta : The Kalamazoo/Battle Creek MSA is half the size of the Grand Rapids/Holland/Muskegon MSA. That is hardly "comparable". While I don't disagree that pe
28 Jetlanta : I completely agree with Tjwgrr on this point. The drive is a complete pain in the a**. There is huge untapped O&D demand in this market as Chicago is
29 CitrusCritter : FL could open it up in PWM style. Say MDW, BWI, and MCO. That would offer 1 stop connections to most major destinations in the system. I'm imagining
30 Jetlanta : Oh I think if FL comes to GRR, ATL is definitely first. But there is no reason to think that they couldn't replicate the CAK sort of network at GRR.
31 PSU.DTW.SCE : I agree that if an LCC were to come to GRR, based on how they are running their businesses today, FL would make the most logical sense. Until WN chang
32 KarlB737 : As they have at FNT but AirTran has for the most part remained firm.
33 FWAERJ : Couldn't Allegiant add 2-4x weekly service to leisure destinations out of GRR? Or is GRR "too big" of a city for them?
34 Jetlanta : I agree that FL will show up eventually. I disagree that the city can only handle 4-8 flights today. Granted that is what they would start with, as i
35 PSU.DTW.SCE : True. Although OKC has a much more defined catchment area with one single airport. GRR is a lot less more defined with GRR, AZO, MKG, LAN and to a le
36 SLCUT2777 : Many of these cities in Michigan have been large since prior to the advent of the interstate highway system in the mid-late 1950s, so hence the devel
37 WA707atMSP : And, several other airports in the same area have had airline service in the past. Benton Harbor and Battle Creek were served by regional airlines af
38 WA707atMSP : And, several other airports in the same area have had airline service in the past. Benton Harbor and Battle Creek were served by regional airlines af
39 SLCUT2777 : That was also at the same time that GRR (then known as Kent County International airport) was approved and the south central city airport was replace
40 PSU.DTW.SCE : I agree. In reality, a "Western Michigan Regional" would arguably have more draw and more service by consolidating some of the service into a single,
41 EXAAUADL : Didnt WN drop ISP-PVD? How many road miles is that?
42 Jetlanta : True, but the dynamic clearly changes if an LCC moves in. AZO and LAN will likely suffer further degradation of their leisure business.
43 KarlB737 : PSU.DTW.SCE I have a question for you. If and I mean if in a hypothetical scenario WN came into GRR and offered a "limited" (using your word) service
44 CitrusCritter : Michigan is also bleeding population. It's not unique to Michigan as several northern states are, but it's also a consideration and perhaps restraini
45 DTWAGENT : GRR is growing at a slow pace. But, remember GRR did have flights to DEN on UA before 9/11. Also let us not forget that NWA also has flights to MSP. A
46 Paladin87 : GRR to MDW is a very short route only 136miles, you could drive it in less time considering all the hassles of flying these days, Even with gas as hig
47 ACVitale : If GRR is truly serious about wanting new service and additional markets it is easy to get. All the political powers, airport authority and citizens n
48 Jkarp2112 : If WN started GRR-MDW I'd name my first born "Southwest"...AA and UA to ORD are priced waaay too high to ORD. TZ used to service GRR-MDW but no more.
49 KarlB737 : However these gentlemen disagree: Again it seems that the missing element initially could be a low-fare flight to MDW from GRR. As far as the automob
50 SLCUT2777 : CMH and IND are just larger cities in the overall model I point out whereas Detroit despite all of its population loss since '67 is still one of the
51 Jetlanta : GRR to MDW is 136 AIR miles. If your Honda can float, you're all set. For the rest of us, GRR to MDW is 183 ROAD miles, clocking in at 3:11 according
52 JBo : Actually, the second runway is east-west (8L/26R) as a shorter, G.A.-oriented runway while 8R/26L and 17/35 serve the commercial traffic. I think you
53 HPLASOps : I'm actually quite surprised G4 hasn't tapped this market yet. I believe NW used to have GRR-LAS but I'm sure that's gone away. GRR is a nice little
54 N353SK : Have you ever tried driving through Chicago? Unless you decide to drive in from GRR at 2AM you'll be stuck in bumper to bumper traffic from Gary, IN
55 Tjwgrr : GRR-DEN was back in the 70's. Only recently restarted by UAX in the past year or so. NW operates GRR-MCO, GRR-TPA - both seasonal- TPA only for a sho
56 WA707atMSP : Remember that road access from Holland to GRR is a lot better than it is from Holland to MKG, because you can take a freeway all the way from Holland
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Has AWA Downgraded Service To Other Airports? posted Thu Nov 8 2001 00:16:40 by FedExHeavy
Watching Traffic To Other Airports posted Thu Apr 12 2001 00:10:12 by Matt D
Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne posted Wed Oct 11 2006 13:04:04 by BNE
DL Looking At Republic To Replace Mesa At JFK posted Tue Aug 15 2006 16:18:12 by UN_B732
Passenger Traffic At MDT Continues To Decline posted Fri Jun 30 2006 22:05:23 by BatonOps
Accidents at JFK, higher than at other airports? posted Mon Feb 6 2006 07:45:16 by Dr.DTW
Connecting In LHR To Other London Airports posted Thu Jan 19 2006 00:09:09 by IceTitan447
LAN To MIA In April/May; Looking At LAX posted Wed Jan 4 2006 00:06:34 by MAH4546
Passenger Falls To His Death At JNB posted Sun Oct 16 2005 15:31:26 by Andz
LHR Rail Travel - Put To Shame By Other Airports posted Mon Jun 13 2005 11:42:44 by LeonB1985