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FL's Plans For IND, MKE, LAS?  
User currently offlineDeltaDAWG From United States of America, joined May 2006, 776 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3301 times:

With FL's recent expansions from MKE, LAS & IND leaves me wondering what they may be thinking of doing since the demise of the YX deal and the inability to expand much more if any from MDW?

LAS - seems to be becoming the next MCO, just in the west. Could it become their western hub?

IND - their western routes seem to be doing ok and now with the IND route added could they be getting ready for the new terminal and major expansion?

MKE - putting pressure on YX? Could they end up with a bunch of gates in MKE. I cannot see Joe spending money to drive YX under just to get the gates but what is the plan?

Thoughts anyone?


GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMKENut From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 699 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3269 times:

Quoting DeltaDAWG (Thread starter):
MKE - putting pressure on YX? Could they end up with a bunch of gates in MKE. I cannot see Joe spending money to drive YX under just to get the gates but what is the plan?

MKE expansion is only seasonal right now and won't start until the end of December. IMHO, FL will have to do more than just seasonal routes for me to consider it serious expansion. We will just have to wait and see if Joe wants to try to put YX under. He will have to do more than just seasonal routes to accomplish the task.  Smile


User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4405 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (7 years 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3252 times:
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Quoting DeltaDAWG (Thread starter):
LAS - seems to be becoming the next MCO, just in the west. Could it become their western hub?

LAS will be tough with the current gate situation. Also there isn't a whole lot of opportunity in the west and midwest as WN/G4/HP plus the others to their respecetive hubs have it covered. Near transcons are probably the best bet, but even those are becoming well served.



Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD.
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4568 posts, RR: 18
Reply 3, posted (7 years 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3228 times:

IND isn't really growing. It is really nothing but adding and subtracting routes and adding and subtracting frequencies. I believe they are at the same place they were last year in terms of number of daily departures and the way it stands right now will be unchanged into spring.


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineB752OS From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3074 times:

Quoting Indy (Reply 3):
IND isn't really growing. It is really nothing but adding and subtracting routes and adding and subtracting frequencies. I believe they are at the same place they were last year in terms of number of daily departures and the way it stands right now will be unchanged into spring.

How about flihgts to BOS from IND? Both cities are decent sized operations for FL.


User currently offlineSpencerii From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3047 times:

Quoting Indy (Reply 3):
IND isn't really growing. It is really nothing but adding and subtracting routes and adding and subtracting frequencies. I believe they are at the same place they were last year in terms of number of daily departures and the way it stands right now will be unchanged into spring.

From a market planning and revenue builder standpoint, IND is a major "soft" market. In the past most airalines who have attempted to focus on IND "get burned" with yield at the end of the day. WN keeps fares very much in check at IND, and pretty much controls fares to most destinations out of IND-- they are the pacesetter for fares and if you try anyting to bring the yields up at IND, WN will hit you right where it hurts.

As far as anyone buidling a "true" hub at IND, I think that all passed the day ATA said good bye to IND.


User currently offlineTZTriStar500 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1452 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3035 times:

Quoting Spencerii (Reply 5):
As far as anyone buidling a "true" hub at IND, I think that all passed the day ATA said good bye to IND.

IND was never an ATA hub and primarily O&D markets only except for a 3 month failed hub experiment in early 2005.



35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
User currently offlineSpencerII From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3026 times:

Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 6):
only except for a 3 month failed hub experiment in early 2005.

Thats exactly the point. It never worked then, and will not work now. Ask any airline planning department about IND!


User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3010 times:

Quoting MKENut (Reply 1):
MKE expansion is only seasonal right now and won't start until the end of December. IMHO, FL will have to do more than just seasonal routes for me to consider it serious expansion. We will just have to wait and see if Joe wants to try to put YX under. He will have to do more than just seasonal routes to accomplish the task.

I don't think they are doing anything that they don't think they can make money at. FL had a chance to do alot of due dilligence on MKE over the last year. My guess is they found some profitable niche markets up there. FL hasn't taken any new jets this summer, so how could they really add routes unless something else is dropped. I think they take a dozen or so 737s next year, so that's when we'll know where they will grow.


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7547 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2971 times:

Quoting Spencerii (Reply 5):
From a market planning and revenue builder standpoint, IND is a major "soft" market. In the past most airalines who have attempted to focus on IND "get burned" with yield at the end of the day.

NW, IND's largest carrier by far is doing quite alright.

In fact Air Tran isn't even the second largest carrier at IND, and have been somewhat getting it handed to them.

Here in the order YTD enplanement of passengers

1. Northwest 588,057
2. US Airways 344,542
3. Air Tran 300,446
4. Southwest 295,838
5. American 282,070
6. Delta 188,792
7. United 183,651
8. Continental 154,441
9. Frontier 89,271
10. Air Canada 9,914
11. ATA 2,351
12. Allegiant 568

[Edited 2007-09-06 19:22:36]


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2925 times:

Quoting B752OS (Reply 4):

How about flihgts to BOS from IND? Both cities are decent sized operations for FL.

If IND-BOS had even more room to grow (it already has a half dozen or so RJ's combined from US and NW) I'm sure B6 would have snatched it up during their big expansion phase when they hit nearby PIT and CMH.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 9):

Here in the order YTD enplanement of passengers

I'm shocked that FL is that high in all honesty. Although WN is quite weak at IND compared to some other stations.


User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4568 posts, RR: 18
Reply 11, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2890 times:

Quoting Spencerii (Reply 5):
WN keeps fares very much in check at IND, and pretty much controls fares to most destinations out of IND-- they are the pacesetter for fares and if you try anyting to bring the yields up at IND, WN will hit you right where it hurts.

You are almost right on it. You just have the letters backwards. At IND it is NW that does this. They like to try and price out the competition. IND-LAS had been running $400 r/t on NW. FL is adding the route in Dec and NW promptly drops the fare to $178 r/t. I'm still waiting for them to add the 2nd daily n/s to LAS. They did the same thing when FL added LAX and SFO. That is why nobody is going to open a hub here. It is hard to operate when NW plays like that.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7547 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2887 times:

I think FL dropped SFO from IND completely now, is that correct, but NW still operates it.


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineChase From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1054 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2879 times:

Quoting Spencerii (Reply 5):
WN keeps fares very much in check at IND, and pretty much controls fares to most destinations out of IND

I don't disagree with you here, but I'm kind of floored if this is the case, since WN only flies to 8 destinations n/s from IND.


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7547 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2852 times:

Quoting Chase (Reply 13):
I don't disagree with you here, but I'm kind of floored if this is the case, since WN only flies to 8 destinations n/s from IND.

I'll disagree with him.

WN serves: LAS, BWI, MCI, JAC, MCO, TPA, MDW, PHX

NW serves: LAS, LAX, SFO, SEA, MSP, DEN, MCI, DTW, PHL, DCA, LGA, BOS, BDL, RDU, TPA, MCO, FLL, MEM, RSW, and rumored return of DFW, AUS, and PHX.

So WN serves just 5 routes of NW's 19 ns service cities.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2841 times:

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 14):
and rumored return of DFW, AUS, and PHX.

DFW needs more service? Or is this just more of this bickering between AA and NWA?

PHX would become a 3way battle then wouldn't it? US, WN, NW? Seems like an awful lot of service for that route.


User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23073 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2835 times:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 10):
If IND-BOS had even more room to grow (it already has a half dozen or so RJ's combined from US and NW) I'm sure B6 would have snatched it up during their big expansion phase when they hit nearby PIT and CMH.

If FL cannot succeed on MDW-BOS, I'd be shocked if they can make IND-BOS work. BOS seems to be a problem for them, not just from the midwest but more generally.

Quoting MKENut (Reply 1):
We will just have to wait and see if Joe wants to try to put YX under.

Do you think Joe is stupid enough to try it? I know FL has done some pretty boneheaded things, but that would take the cake.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineTZTriStar500 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1452 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2795 times:

Quoting SpencerII (Reply 7):
Thats exactly the point. It never worked then, and will not work now. Ask any airline planning department about IND!

I completely agree and was not attempting to be the contrarian. However, there are many people on a.net including in this discussion that think there is some huge untapped market here that would support a large 100+ flight FL or NW buildup to far off cities, but they won't listen.



35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7547 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2750 times:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 15):
DFW needs more service? Or is this just more of this bickering between AA and NWA?

PHX would become a 3way battle then wouldn't it? US, WN, NW? Seems like an awful lot of service for that route.

Notice I said return, NW flew all of these routes before but dropped them to re-align aircraft after lease rejections. NW flew IND-DFW over two years ago now.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineMKENut From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 699 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2702 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 16):
Do you think Joe is stupid enough to try it? I know FL has done some pretty boneheaded things, but that would take the cake.

Actually Joe and company have said they don't want to destroy YX, instead they wanted to buy them during their hostile takeover attempt. So that tells me they think they can destroy YX if they choose to.


User currently offlineLASOctoberB6 From Japan, joined Nov 2006, 2380 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2663 times:

Quoting DeltaDAWG (Thread starter):

LAS - seems to be becoming the next MCO, just in the west. Could it become their western hub?

i'd hope not....i dont feel like seeing FL in and out of LAS..



[NOT IN SERVICE] {WEStJet}
User currently offlineCitrus1 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 89 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2630 times:

Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 17):
I completely agree and was not attempting to be the contrarian. However, there are many people on a.net including in this discussion that think there is some huge untapped market here that would support a large 100+ flight FL or NW buildup to far off cities, but they won't listen.

The most intelligent statement on this dumb thread.


User currently offlineCitrus1 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 89 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2623 times:

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 8):
I don't think they are doing anything that they don't think they can make money at. FL had a chance to do alot of due dilligence on MKE over the last year. My guess is they found some profitable niche markets up there. FL hasn't taken any new jets this summer, so how could they really add routes unless something else is dropped. I think they take a dozen or so 737s next year, so that's when we'll know where they will grow.

2ND Most intelligent statement.


User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4568 posts, RR: 18
Reply 23, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2547 times:

Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 17):
I completely agree and was not attempting to be the contrarian. However, there are many people on a.net including in this discussion that think there is some huge untapped market here that would support a large 100+ flight FL or NW buildup to far off cities, but they won't listen.

However people seemed to think MKE would have no problem with it despite having a smaller market. As long as NW operates the way they do here nobody besides NW has a chance at such an operation. You see it with the way they approached LAX and SFO when FL added it and how they are now pricing LAS since FL added it. Remember this area has supported a 100+ flight operation for US in the past. If NW made IND a hub (which they won't) it would support the numbers. But since they aren't it doesn't matter. As long as they keep their operation the way they do nobody else can even try. So that really doesn't matter either. Short of NW going back to flying only MEM, MSP and DTW nothing is changing here. FL will struggle to maintain 14 to 16 flights a day. NW will stay where they are with control of the market. They may add some routes like PDX, AUS, DFW, MSY or whatever but I suspect much of their future additions from here will involve Compass.

IND finds itself in a strange position where competition is both good and bad. We get most of the top nonstop destinations in the U.S. at good prices. But because of this it keeps anyone from being able to run a profitable hub here which keeps out nonstop service to smaller cities. For me it works out great. NW serves most of the places nonstop taht I'd go to. And if I want mileage runs I have plenty of affordable choices. If you like mileage runs this is the place to live.

Just wanted to summarize my current thinking. While I do believe that IND --- COULD --- support a 100+ flight operation for any one of the two airlines you mention the current dynamics at IND would NOT allow it. And I see no change to that coming any time in the near future (current to 5 years).



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineAirbusaddict From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 415 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2533 times:

Does anyone know who is assigned to what gates at IND's new terminal, im guessing they all have maybe the same amount of gates as they did at the old terminal.

Just to throw in something:
RUMOR, again, this is just a rumor, but Air Tran might be starting 1x Daily Flight either between ATL or LAS to FSD.
I heard it from someone at the ticket counters here in Sioux Falls...



Finally F9! FSD-DEN 7-4-2011
25 USPIT10L : Don't forget about DL. PITBOS is not a market DL would jump on, witness B6's problems with the route. Besides, considering DL's recent moves at BOS,
26 Indy : I think BOS may be over served from here as it is I doubt anyone adds new service on that route.
27 Post contains images Tornado82 : I never said anyone else is going to pick up PIT-BOS, what I was getting at was that when B6 was busy adding every airstrip within an E190 distance o
28 Post contains images Indy : What are you trying to say? lol Honestly that entire region is pretty saturated. Fill in the gaps if I miss anything. BDL - NW BOS - US & NW PHL - US
29 Cubsrule : NW tried awfully hard, and they couldn't. Why does Joe think FL is different?
30 CitrusCritter : I don't know where you get the he said that they could. That being said, it has been said that YX only has a few routes which represent the large maj
31 Cubsrule : Obviously, I haven't done the same due diligence with respect to YX that AAI has. But I can make some pretty good guesses about YX's most important r
32 CitrusCritter : I would also say that any belief that FL could put YX under was based on the assumption that YX remained a stand-alone company. As they now have TPG'
33 Cubsrule : I agree to a point. Signature seating is a part of YX's product differentiation. But it's not all of it. Look at the AL and OO route maps. Cities lik
34 MKENut : Aren't those identified routes slot restricted routes to the East Coast?
35 CitrusCritter : Well that would assume that all those routes are to LGA and DCA. I doubt that's the case, but I could be wrong. FL could reassign some of their LGA s
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