HPLASOps From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5788 times:
Just flew in from Chicago, and boy are my arms tired, badda bing! (Sorry, love that joke)
Anyways, just when I thought I had a good handle on many of the idiosyncrasies that plague the clusterbomb that is Chicago O'Hare, I get this flight tonight. I had 3 just goofy things happen on my flight out of there tonight, and I'm curious if anyone has explanations for these things.
Weird thing #1: ORD's dept config was simultaneous departures off 22L and 28, while using two taxiways parallel to RWY 28 for the busy lineup. My flight left out of the F gates, made a right turn, went all the way around the C gates and damn near got to the threshold of 27 before making another right turn, squeezing in between the L gates and the Intl terminal, then made another right turn, to the H gates, a quick U-turn and got in line on the outer taxiway. Why the hell would ORD ground send our plane on a tour of the airport instead of just letting our bird make a left turn and get right on the outer taxiway and in line, thereby bumping us a few spots up in line? BTW, my flight ended up taking about an hour to taxi out before wheels up on 22L.
Weird thing #2: In addition to the two taxiways there was a large hold pad between the two taxiways near the threshold of both runways being used for staging. Staring at the large lineup, I could not discern with any rhyme or reason why planes were cleared for departure in the order that they were. Two different regional jets went from being behind us to damn near cutting to the front of the line. I saw a UA 733 that held in the pad for about 45 minutes before being cleared right before us. I saw a NW MD83 go from the holding pad to the back of the line. The way the planes were being moved around, it looked like WN's cattle herd boarding, with planes pushing each other out of the way for position. There was absolutely nothing I could see that would convince me first come, first serve was in use. Also, IIRC, RWY 28 is longer than 22L, so it would make sense to put all the heavies on 28 and the smaller jets on 22L (especially for wake turbulence reasons), but I saw heavies and small jets on both runways, despite the fact that almost all of the heavies were on the inner taxiway and better positioned for 28. Can someone please enlighten me on what I was witnessing and if that was normal?
Weird thing #3: After take off on 22L and a quick right turn, we climbed to about 3 or 4,000 and held that altitude for about 5 minutes before given clearance to climb higher. I have heard of limiting climb out of busy airports for traffic flow reasons, but 5 minutes at about 3,000 ft??? I was scared that we we're going to do a return to field. I've never heard of a flight doing that.
Anyways, can't wait for 2054, when that runway modernization project with be complete and delays will be reduced by a whopping 35% (or something like that).
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21025 posts, RR: 60 Reply 1, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5727 times:
I've seen #2 and #3 at IAH before. We did a climb out of IAH and held quite low over the city for many minutes before climbing through FL100. And the random clearance from the lines and the staging areas will happen for all sorts of reasons, including where each plane is going, who's really ready to take off, whether a plane asks to drop out of the line to fix an issue (likely the NW jet's problem) or if there is a ground hold at a plane' destination.
As for #1, I can't tell you why, but I remember doing something like that at ORD, and we did something similar at JFK last week. Drove all around the freaking airport for no apparent reason.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Planesarecool From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 4088 posts, RR: 13 Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5525 times:
Slightly off topic, but what are the standard departure queues like in the evening at ORD? I'll probably be heading there next month and was wondering whether i'd be better off getting a 17:40 departure or a 20:15? I made the mistake of having a peak time departure out of JFK recently, and ended up waiting for over an hour for departure, around 30 minutes of which were spent idle on the inactive 4R/22L.
I'd also be interested to know the standard runway operations at ORD? Is it common to have all 6 runways in operation at the same time?
Hiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2117 posts, RR: 4 Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5459 times:
First off....ORD is busy....once you push out there is another aircraft waiting for your gate...just about always. So....everyone is watching everyone and 'getting bumped up in line' is avoided to the max. Your lineup required that circuitous route around the field to get you into position where you should be and when you should be. Secondly the runways are normally lined up by destination....northbounds go this way...east this way...west this way...south this way. In a two runway operation two directions are combined but the plan is to send a steady stream out without crossing departures from one runway across the other. Lastly...because of that some departure routes can be right under inbound arrival routes for either ORD or MDW and are therefore restricted from climb until out from under.
IMHO I think ground atc at ORD just may be one of the worst jobs in the world...taxi out instructions can involve 6 different points and that may only get you part way to your lineup for the runway. Anyone who holds that job can easily get a job as an auctioneer.
Mcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1273 posts, RR: 17 Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5270 times:
I will take a stab at the perceived weirdness of your flight. The airplanes in the pad are sequenced for in trail restrictions and for ATC slot times. That is why you might see a NWA or UA airplane sitting in the pad. The 737 I am guessing was going to perhaps the east coast (EWR,LGA,PHL etc) also some BAE traffic is routed over 22L occasionally and this could have been a flight to MSP also explaining the NWA traffic. In any case they were probably assigned a slot time and ORDATC was just moving the airplanes to comply. Also you have east, south, west and some northwest bound traffic taking off those runways. Some fixes get jammed and need farther in trail restrictions. The controllers do a good job at ORD and are what I consider the best in the business.
On departure you did not say which direction you were travelling but if you were going east and departed 22L then you were underneath the arrival flow for 22R. The airplanes coming in from the Southeast fix are leveled at 7,000 and on departure you climb to 5,000. As the 7k traffic passes overhead they are descended and pass through your 5K alt as they go north to get in line for 22R. Once you are clear of the inbound flow you are then sent to 13K and handed off to Chicago center.
If you were going on of the other directions then I would also suspect arrival flow and also MDW traffic. If you were going west bound you might have gotten stuck under a MDW dept.
For the long taxi route. Not unusual at all to make the loop. ORD ATC has one thing in mind, keep the line moving and keep the line tight. Coming out of the F gates if AA has a cluster going on with airplanes trying to get in the alley ways, which happens quite often they have to route the airplanes around the traffic.
The two taxiway routing to 28 and 22L are normal for those departure runways. Generally 28 traffic is sent down Mike and 22L traffic is routed via Delta taxiway. The pad is used to sort the fixes since not all aircraft taxi in the order of the available airspace.
As a pilot I would rather fly in and out of ORD 100 times versus flying to IAD once. At ORD the controllers have their feces together and can do what it takes to make the planes fly. At IAD it is just the opposite. I just read a report from my company that our dispatchers are having to call Washington Center and IAD Tracon to get them to do what they should have been doing to begin with. It appears that the washington folks just fold their hands during weather and other issues and take no action unless directed to get the traffic moving.
FlyBoy84 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 364 posts, RR: 5 Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 5221 times:
Oh, I've experienced #1 before after Christmas one year! I was on a UA flight that left from the north end of the B concourse and taxied east to the bridge, crossed over the bridge, passed T-5 and H/K, up Taxiway B in front of the C concourse, made a U-turn to taxidown Tango to Tango 10 behind several other planes before taking off from 14R/32L.
I'm certainly glad to know that there was a purpose for it other than wasting fuel and contributing to the depletion of the OZONE LAYER!
InnocuousFox From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2805 posts, RR: 16 Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 5134 times:
#1 and #2 likely have to do with timing for arrival slots at your destination. They didn't happen to have crappy weather where you were going, did they? This time of year, that is a major reason that you will get stuck on a taxiway. If you listen to ATC, you will hear them talk about the "updated release time". Often, you will get put on a hold pad for a few minutes until such time as you get to that release time. The whole point of this is so that airports don't get 100 aircraft all at the same time. Way back when, that's the way it happened and there was a lot of stack holding. Notice that you don't hold in the air so much anymore? The only time is if there is an event going on at that moment (e.g. weather).
Anyway, the tower has a list of all the release times and sequences the departures based on that.
Also, as mentioned above, they will often try to stagger the aircraft based on their initial direction of travel so that they can shotgun departures all over the place. If you have 2 a/c going the same direction, they need to be spaced out in the air, so why not shoot someone else off between them rather than make everyone in line wait the extra time? Remember that this isn't the line at Burger King where it's first come, first served. There are things going on both regionally and nationally that you can't see.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
Chase From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1054 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5053 times:
Is it possible that #1 could have been due to you being initially scheduled to depart on one rwy, and then got changed to the other mid-taxi? I doubt the pilot knew the release time wasn't for a while but asked ATC for permission to take a Sunday drive in order to preserve the airline's on-time stats, but I guess you never know
HPLASOps From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4862 times:
Quoting InnocuousFox (Reply 8): They didn't happen to have crappy weather where you were going, did they?
I checked the METARs when I got home, and it was Few clouds at 1900 ft, scattered clouds at about 8,000 ft and broken at 20,000 ft when I left. There were light patches of rain earlier that day, but no lightning. I know all it takes is for someone to fart to get a GDP into ORD, but the weather didn't look that bad to me.
To be honest, it didn't look like local EDCT times were being enforced, I think it was just a busy time for the airport. The inbound aircraft flight on time so there must not have been an EDCT time for that flight. Our scheduled departure was 6:50 pm local and perhaps that's coinciding with a lot of international flight departures. Once a plane was cleared for takeoff, the next plane was cleared for TIPAH, and was cleared for takeoff within the next minute. I think it was just overall volume of traffic that caused the hour long taxi out.
Based on the O'hare 1 SID, looks like we went to the DPA (DuPage) VOR to proceed to PHX, and the instructions say to be at or above 3,000 ft at 5 DME from the airport. That doesn't mean you have to maintain that altitude till you need 8 DME, just need to be above that.
Perhaps a DC-9-50?
The couple of times that I used ORD for international; I thought that a long wait was in store seeing numerous jets on holding pads but we seemed to just go in the front of the pack and depart? Perhaps international has priority?
Ckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 4650 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4616 times:
Back in 1996, I was on a UA flight departing ORD for ATL. I was at the north end of B, so somewhere around B17, B18, or B19. Sitting at the gate before boarding, I was watching the departures from 9L, and although there was a steady stream, there was never more than 2 or 3 planes in line.
So, when we pushed back, the captain taxied south, towards E. Then he went around C and turned back north and taxied to 9L for departure. There was no wait to taxi onto the runway, but there were no planes waiting to depart 9L when we pushed back.
I asked a friend who flies for AA out of ORD, and the only theory he could think of was that UA needed the gate for an inbound flight, so the plane was pushed back on time, even though ATC had pushed the release time back by a few minutes. Rather than taxi to the hold pad and sit, the captain just decided to do one lap around C.
Mcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1273 posts, RR: 17 Reply 14, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4599 times:
Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 10): Based on the O'hare 1 SID, looks like we went to the DPA (DuPage) VOR to proceed to PHX, and the instructions say to be at or above 3,000 ft at 5 DME from the airport. That doesn't mean you have to maintain that altitude till you need 8 DME, just need to be above that.
Actually the 3x5 only applies to the aircraft on the 330 to 060 heading I believe. The only restriction you had was 4x8. But all departures are to maintain 5000 until cleared to a higher level. Going to PHX you were most likely a Polo or Iowa City departure. Not too many DPA departure routes.
Also, EDCT times are not "local" but issued by the FAA Flow Control folks in D.C. ORD will have inbound flow when they are runway reduced from 3 arrival runways to 2. This can occur on a good weather day if the winds are over 10kts and out of the north. between about 330 and 020. This knocks out LAHSO ops for 22R and can result in lengthy delays even with clear skies.
Again I still think the ORD controllers do the most with the least.
PanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 10 Reply 15, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4524 times:
Quote: ORD's dept config was simultaneous departures off 22L and 28, while using two taxiways parallel to RWY 28 for the busy lineup. My flight left out of the F gates, made a right turn, went all the way around the C gates and damn near got to the threshold of 27 before making another right turn, squeezing in between the L gates and the Intl terminal, then made another right turn, to the H gates, a quick U-turn and got in line on the outer taxiway. Why the hell would ORD ground send our plane on a tour of the airport instead of just letting our bird make a left turn and get right on the outer taxiway and in line, thereby bumping us a few spots up in line? BTW, my flight ended up taking about an hour to taxi out before wheels up on 22L.
Think of ORD's taxiways as one-way streets. While an individual vehicle might have to go out of its way to get to its destination (as is the norm at ORD), the traffic pattern is eased. With everything moving in one direction on certain routes, and opposite in other routes, the worries about collisions are eased.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
777fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2402 posts, RR: 3 Reply 16, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3971 times:
Quoting Mcdu (Reply 6): The controllers do a good job at ORD and are what I consider the best in the business.
Hands down. Anyone that flies UA and listens to channel nine into or out of ORD will know that. They're consistently dealt the worst hand you can imagine but yet manage to get the job done. ATL and LAX don't hold a candle to what ORD deals with in terms of navigable space, runway configuration and, particularly in the wintertime, weather/wind.
There's a method to their madness, believe me! Thanks for the info, Mcdu, I found it insightful.
CWAFlyer From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 621 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3843 times:
The controllers in ORD are the best in my book. The ground controllers especially remind me of the old Fed Ex commercial with John Moschitta talking 100 miles a minute. They only expect two things: Don't talk and tie up the radio and don't stop on a taxiway!
IPFreely From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 223 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3623 times:
Quoting Planesarecool (Reply 4): Slightly off topic, but what are the standard departure queues like in the evening at ORD? I'll probably be heading there next month and was wondering whether i'd be better off getting a 17:40 departure or a 20:15?
I personally do everything possible to avoid ORD, especially on UAX, but if I have to fly through there I always use morning flights. If you can't avoid later in the day, take the 17:40 departure. That way when, I mean if, your flight gets cancelled, you'll have more chances to get on another flight.
I just returned from South Carolina GSP-ORD-MSP, I'm supposed to be back last night, yesterday the first segment was delayed, and UA put me in hotel, today, the 7am flight couldn't leave due to bad weather (define bad weather) at ORD, after arriving at ORD, I just found out all ORD-MSP flights have been delayed/canceled, except UA169 which everyone was trying to get on. Once we got to MSP, it seems like there were even more people trying to get on the returning flight, what a mess.
If I ever have to move to Chicago area(s) for my next job, I'd fly out of MKE instead just to avoid the uncertainties, hassles, and agonies.
Bohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2407 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3054 times:
#1. The captain said or did something that pissed off the ground controller and the ground controller made him do a penalty lap.
Seriously #1, #2 and #3 is the result of the coordination of ORD air traffic controllers to get you to your destination as quickly as possible safely. Considering the amount of traffic they handle, they do an outstanding job. ORD air traffic controllers are the best in the world.
25 Bearste: Absolutely, I have more than 4000 hours of flight time being base at ORD, and this is such a true statement...don't stop! Jon
26 P3Orion: We were on Plan B (Landing 14R, 22R, 27L/Departing 22L, 28) and use this configuration when the wind is strong out of the south. The reason you got t
27 PITops: I remember doing this when I took off from MDW. We were around 5k for quite some time. We were well over Lake Michigan when we finally hit FL100.
28 InnocuousFox: Uh... wow. Very well done. Welcome to my Respected list for this post alone.
29 FlyAAS80: Likewise... Welcome to my RR list. As a frequent flyer out of ORD and a pilot based out of PWK, I have the upmost respect for what you guys do. Thank
30 HPLASOps: I'm very certain it was a MD-80, it looked way too long to be a DC-9. Thanks for the explanation, P3Orion. I think that accurately explains what happ
31 CALPSAFltSkeds: Better was CO powering off D-11 or D12, and getting immediate takeoff clearance on the 32L from T3 intersection. Airborn in 2 minutes, those were the
32 777fan: I took my first lesson with American Flyers at PWK back in 1999! Ahhh, the good ol' days! Hmmm, I'm sure NW would like to know that someone else is u
33 Mcdu: P3, I am a UAL pilot and wanted to pass along a big thanks to you and the rest of the ORDATC folks. Nothing better than the work you guys do. Years a
34 InnocuousFox: Still a classic... "you guys should come up here sometime."
35 HPLASOps: " target=_blank>http://www.nwa.com/travel/trave/seatm/ I'll be damned. I didn't realize how much the stretch DC-9-50 looks like the MD-80 until now. W
36 InnocuousFox: Uh... considering that for all intents and purposes, the MD-80 line was simply a renaming of the DC-9 line (i.e. DC-9-80) it isn't hard to figure out
37 Ramp2CSA2FA2FO: I'm very certain it was a MD-80, it looked way too long to be a DC-9. Although the DC9-50 may at first be mistaken for an MD80 series aircraft becaus
38 777fan: Except for that whole thing about the winglets!!! No big deal all around. 777fan
39 P3Orion: I've been there and feel his pain (HA, HA).
40 747fan: Ditto - you have the honor of the first on my list. I've always been curious about how the ORD rwy. configuration is utizilized. You guys do an outst