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Domestic Flights On 767-200's In USA.  
User currently offlineCV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4517 times:

Hi!

It looks to me that the good old 767-200 is flying less and less in USA. I noticed that the airlines that still fly them are AA, CO and US. From those, US ones are probably the oldest, and airlines like UA and DL just stopped flying them. We still have quite brand new CO 767-200ER's that will probably stay around for a bunch of years, but regarding AA for example, what are the routes that their 767-200ER fly? Transamerican ones only? Will we see a big decline of the 767 in these next few years?
Regards

28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCodyKDiamond From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 537 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4442 times:

Goood question. The AA 762s mostly fly JFK-LAX transcons, but there is also JFK-MIA as flight 1165/1612.

User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3203 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4397 times:

On Saturdays, an AA 762 operates JFK-SAN as well. It is not sold as 3-cabin though, but only as F/Y, giving FF pax the J-cabin seats first.

Anyhow, off the top of my head, the only AA 762 routes are:

JFK-LAX
JFK-SFO
JFK-MIA
JFK-SAN (Sat only)

CO 762:

EWR-IAH


As for the US 762's, I have no idea if they operate domestically or not. I've heard on the boards here that they'll operate PHL-CLT and such, but I don't know for sure.



A340-500: 4 engines 4 long haul. 777-200LR: 2 engines 4 longer haul
User currently offlineLexy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2515 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4392 times:

DHL still flies the 767-200 domestically. LOL!! Does that count?


Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 4, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4385 times:

CO: flies the 762ER domestically on the EWR-IAH hub-to-hub route, also the 762ERs fly from EWR to GVA, ZRH,DUB,Athens, EDI,MXP,FCO,GRU and from IAH to AMS,EZE......please check the schedules, there is some seasonality as to which routes the 762ER flies during the summer and winter schedules.

AA: its basically JFK-LAX and JFK-SFO transcon services, although AA sometimes assigns a 762ER on the JFK-BDA and JFK-MIA routes.

US: I am not as familiar with US's transatlantic operations, but US does utilize the 762ER on several routes from PHL and CLT to Europe, check the timetable as there is a lot of seasonality in US's transatlantic schedules and aircraft allocations. During the winter, the 762ER also shows up on high demand leisure routes from PHL and CLT to San Juan, CUN and other "beach destinations""

The 762 is becoming part of history: AA keeps the type around as its ideal for its transcon services......a low capacity widebody that allows AA to maintain widebody service on these important (money-making high yielding) routes AND offer frequency on the routes (which customers demand)....AA offers three class service on the transcons and fills up its premium cabins with the ""bi-coastal"' crowd (think the financial and entertainment industries) many of whom commute coast to coast. Over at US, the 762ERs are to be replaced with new A332s....whether the A332s will replace or supplement the 762ERs is still rather unclear (there have been several different stories), one line of thinking is that the A332s will replace the 762s on a one for one basis, the other is that with US retiring some 752s and expanding service overseas and to Hawaii, the 762s could hang around a bit longer. (US did schedule the 762s for a much need interior update, I believe.) And, at CO, the 762ERs are very new airplanes delivered about 7 years ago.....they will remain with CO for the time being but will eventually be replaced with 787s that CO has on order; exactly when CO will retire the 762s is unknown (CO has not yet decided).....it all depends upon the price of oil (the 762s are not the most efficient airplanes around at the moment), CO's financial performance, how quickly CO expands its long haul network, and other minor factors. The best guess is that after CO receives its first 25 787s (most of which will be dedicated to expansion), the next 787s ordered will replace the 762ER fleet so we are talking about 4 to 6 years into the future; note that CO has already received offers for the 762ERs from cargo airlines as they will make very capable freighters.


User currently offlineCV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4322 times:

Hi!

I was just checking how many 767-200ER's AA still have active and also US ones, and looking specially to the years these 767's were built, they are mostly from 1985 through 1987...so we have 767's flying with around 20 years old. Regarding CO I still think there are some active life around until the 787 arrives, but for US and AA I think these planes are already "over the hill". The case of AA I think they will probably replace them with 763's? Or AA is ready to order at least some 787's to replace around 15 airframes still around? In US I also agree that the A332 can be a good choice.
Regards


User currently offlineILOVEA340 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 2100 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4272 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 4):
US: I am not as familiar with US's transatlantic operations, but US does utilize the 762ER on several routes from PHL and CLT to Europe, check the timetable as there is a lot of seasonality in US's transatlantic schedules and aircraft allocations. During the winter, the 762ER also shows up on high demand leisure routes from PHL and CLT to San Juan, CUN and other "beach destinations""

The US 762 operates Trans-Atlantc from PHL only to (DUB (seasonaly, summer 757), AMS (seasonaly, summer 757), BRU (seasonaly, summer 757), LGW (as a stop gap measure), FRA (seasonal extra summer flight), MUC (except SEP/OCT with A330), ZRH, MXP, VCE (seasonal), ARN (seasonal), ATH (Seasonal).

Also PHL-CLT is the only mainlad domestic Route.

PHL-CUN operates on a 762 in Summer,

PHL-SJU operates on a 762 in Winter


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 7, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4193 times:

Quoting CV990 (Reply 5):
but for US and AA I think these planes are already "over the hill".

Yes and no, 20 years old is not that old for a widebody longer range airliner.....for example, AA's 762ERs have a leisurely schedule of doing one JFK-LAX-JFK turn per day, long segments and not many takeoffs and landings. The 762ERs can fly for quite a few more years with proper maintenance. From a pax point of view, interiors and accommodation do need to be kept up to date; AA's 762s are or will be treated to an interior update. The interiors of US's 762ERs really did get run down and were a disgrace on several airplanes (especially when compared to the shiny new A333s that were also flying transatlantic services)..sorry US fans, but I think that US has or will be addressing this issue.

Quoting CV990 (Reply 5):
The case of AA I think they will probably replace them with 763's?

Its hard to say....replacing the 762s with 763s would increase capacity on the transcon routes or would require AA to reduce frequency on the routes....and AA does not like either alternative. Adding seats would hurt yields and cutting frequency would annoy their loyal FF premium pax; thus the 762s continue on these routes. AA also does not seem interested in following UA's solution of using low density 3-class 752s on the route.....AA seems determined to keep the JFK transcons a widebody service, again, in order to keep their loyal premium customers happy. Thus, who knows what AA will do........many think that AA will order the 787 to replace its 762/A300 fleets, but its very hard to say if the 787s would end up on the transcon routes.

Quoting CV990 (Reply 5):
Or AA is ready to order at least some 787's to replace around 15 airframes still around?

As mentioned, AA needs to replace both the 762 and its A300s in the medium term future.......thus if AA were to place a 787 order it would be for more than 15 airplanes. Whether AA would go for the 787-3 or 787-8 for this mission is a whole other discussion which has been done several times here at a.net.

Quoting CV990 (Reply 5):
In US I also agree that the A332 can be a good choice

I knew that you would find the A332 a good choice....I know that the A332 is one of your favorite types! All joking aside, its questionable if the A332 is really a good choice to replace US's A332s; while the A332 is a great and very capable airplane, its much bigger than the 762ER and it could be ""too much airplane"" for many of the transatlantic routes than US flies out of PHL and CLT. Adding 40-50 seats per day in certain markets could harm yields.


User currently offlineCV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4147 times:

Hi!

Thanks Dutchjet for taking sometime to "personally" answer my questions. Regarding AA 762ER's actually they look quite good indeed but I've been looking to other 767's with the same age that have been already stored, scrapped or sold....maybe AA 76's might run a few more years, but I don't think that many!
Regarding UA answer for the retirement of their 762's replacing with 752's that's interesting...how about DL? Did they had the same option too?
Regarding AA replacements for the 762's and A300's I agree with you...I refuse too to give a model for them ( but it's interesting to see that until now AA haven't said a thing regarding this issue....) but the A332 could be a "good choise" right? Big grin
Finally US option to replace the 762 by the A332, well I have the example of my national airline...they will start to replace the A313 with brand new A332 fresh from Airbus starting in November 2007.
Regards


User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2679 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4121 times:

AA 762s are in a terrible condition! It seems that nothing has changed in the cabin since their delivery


אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4115 times:

Quoting CodyKDiamond (Reply 1):
The AA 762s mostly fly JFK-LAX transcons

you missed JFK-SFO once a while as well, but I think they use the 763 primarily.



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineSeabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5385 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4069 times:

Quoting CV990 (Reply 8):
.maybe AA 76's might run a few more years, but I don't think that many!

The question is what they'd replace them with... the ideal airplane doesn't exist right now. As Dutchjet pointed out, they'll lose some of their highest-revenue pax if they replace the 762s with 752s (probably the most efficient alternative). No current widebody is even remotely close to the same size class as the 762. The 783 might be cheaper on a trip-cost basis than the 762, but would not generate even close to the same RASM (even in an 8Y 3-class configuration), and would cost a lot to acquire. Any other larger widebody would just be more expensive to run, for what I expect would not be significantly more revenue.

Given their easy lives and upcoming total interior revamp, I'm willing to predict that AA's dedicated 762 transcon fleet will stick around for 10 more years. I think they are guaranteed to outlast the AB6s and likely to outlast some newer 763s.


User currently offlineTrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2341 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3965 times:

Quoting CV990 (Reply 5):
Regarding CO I still think there are some active life around until the 787 arrives, but for US and AA I think these planes are already "over the hill". The case of AA I think they will probably replace them with 763's?

Keep in mind these 762ER's have relatively low cycles, and especially in AA's case, flew long routes exclusively. The current transcons are the shortest routes these aircraft have done on a regular basis with AA. Beforehand, they were relegated to ORD-ARN and such.

US 762ER's are the reverse, they were doing transcons for years, but now TATL.
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Quoting Seabosdca (Reply 11):
I'm willing to predict that AA's dedicated 762 transcon fleet will stick around for 10 more years. I think they are guaranteed to outlast the AB6s and likely to outlast some newer 763s.

I would not be surprised to see the 762ER's still doing transcons well into the next decade, (assuming fuel prices don't grow exponentially) and I agree they will outlast the A300's. But I can't see a 20 year old 762 outlasting a four year old 763.



There's nothing quite like a tri-jet.
User currently offlineSeabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5385 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3949 times:

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 12):
But I can't see a 20 year old 762 outlasting a four year old 763.

Oops, my bad, I was unclear...  banghead  by "newer" I meant "newer than the 762s." I think the 762s are reasonably likely to outlast the older 763s, because I think it would be a net loss for AA to substitute a 763 on the transcons, especially as it would need to be refitted into a domestic 3-class configuration. I don't think the 762s are likely to outlast the brand-new 763s, which will serve AA long after they take delivery of 787s.


User currently offlineSeabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5385 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3939 times:

Quoting LY777 (Reply 9):
AA 762s are in a terrible condition! It seems that nothing has changed in the cabin since their delivery

I have had a couple flights on AA 762s lately... yes, the interior fittings look a little dated, but they are in pretty good condition relative to certain other AA fleets (cough... 752s... AB6s). The Y seats are not the original seats, but AAs newer (and very comfortable) seats with winged headrests. With new bins and panels, and getting rid of the heavy and fuzzy CRT monitors, AA 762s will look like new. (Not like those of US, in other words.  duck  )


User currently offlineFURUREFA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 801 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3889 times:

Quoting LY777 (Reply 9):
AA 762s are in a terrible condition! It seems that nothing has changed in the cabin since their delivery

I'm sorry you feel that way, but American is doing what it can to improve the passenger experience on these aircraft: they are currently being re-fitted with new interiors and new seats in F and J (the premium cabins have already received a new entertainment system).

Matt


User currently offlineTwoRock From Bermuda, joined Jul 2007, 17 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3877 times:

We (BDA) see a US 762 on most days during the summer and an AA 762 outta JFK pretty much year round (as mentioned.)

User currently offlineIADCRJ From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 332 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3864 times:

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 15):
AA 762s are in a terrible condition! It seems that nothing has changed in the cabin since their delivery

I know US's 767s are well over due for refurbishments in the cabin, since in general too they appear to be in the same state.


User currently offlineElmoTheHobo From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1537 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3816 times:

Quoting LY777 (Reply 9):
AA 762s are in a terrible condition! It seems that nothing has changed in the cabin since their delivery

I'm not sure which 767s you're talking about, but the 767-200s I've been on have all been in good condition. The 767s have the upgraded economy product (the new seat covers with the headrest), though the service still lags. The Business class isn't half bad, and first will have the old coffin seats soon, not too shabby.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 2):
Anyhow, off the top of my head, the only AA 762 routes are:

Up until this month, American also flew LAX-MIA, and American moves 762s to JFK-MIA for some periods of the year. Just this summer American also had a 762 flying LAX-IAD, being sold as a two class service.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 10):
you missed JFK-SFO once a while as well, but I think they use the 763 primarily.

Pretty much. SFO only sees 2 762s out of 6 total flights.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21503 posts, RR: 60
Reply 19, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3801 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 4):
AA offers three class service on the transcons and fills up its premium cabins with the ""bi-coastal"' crowd (think the financial and entertainment industries) many of whom commute coast to coast.

Often full, but my recent Saturday evening JFK-LAX was 1/3rd full in every class. There were 3 F pax out of 9 seats, 10 J pax out of 30 seats. I don't know totally about Y, but when we boarded, the gate agent said the flight was very light tonight, so we would forgo the standard boarding procedure and everyone was welcome to board at their leisure. No rows called nor classes of service, and boarding was a breeze.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 7):
for example, AA's 762ERs have a leisurely schedule of doing one JFK-LAX-JFK turn per day, long segments and not many takeoffs and landings.

I'm pretty sure they run JFK-LAX-JFK-SFO in one day (or LAX-JFK-SFO-JFK, or SFO-JFK-SFO-JFK) which basically runs them non-stop for a few days straight before they RON or get taken out for maintenance. This leads to many delays. It would be nice if each bird was only scheduled for one turn a day as it would allow them to more easily swap in a bird when another one is delayed arriving, but this hasn't been my experience.

Quoting Seabosdca (Reply 14):
The Y seats are not the original seats, but AAs newer (and very comfortable) seats with winged headrests.

I've flown both J and F recently on the 762, and this is my take.

The J seats are pretty much the same as the J seats in the 777 (which I had flown a week earlier, so they were fresh in my mind) and similar as well to the F seats in the 738 (which don't have foot rests and don't recline as much, but are otherwise of similar design). They are all pretty comfy. Once the 757 gets this family of seats in F, attitudes will change about that bird.

The F seats in the 762 are different than the original leather and lambswool seats (which I had a lot of experience with over my lifetime in both domestic and international versions), and are only more comfy than the J seats due to increased recline.

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 15):
they are currently being re-fitted with new interiors and new seats in F and J

What kind of seats? Since they are only transcon aircraft, can't see them doing the new J product nor any sort of F suite, so what's the plan?



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineTrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2341 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3722 times:

Does anyone know what the dispatch reliability of the AA 762ER fleet is? I'm curious since they among the oldest aircraft in the fleet. I'm sure they're better than the A306R's though.

Quoting Seabosdca (Reply 13):
Oops, my bad, I was unclear...

No worries. Now that I know what you meant, I agree.  Smile



There's nothing quite like a tri-jet.
User currently offlineCV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3462 times:

Hi!

Back to the summer of 1998 I was in Fresno/CA and on my way back to Europe I flew from LAX to JFK in a UA 762 ( N601UA ), I really enjoyed that flight ( red-eye flight in fact...) and it's interesting now to see how the 762 got a niche in this market, flying transcontinental for all those airlines. Then I flew BA 763ER from JFK to LGW and I had one of my most comfortable flights in my life...I think the 767 have one of the greatest configurations ever 2-3-2 it's great...it's not a single aisle plane but it's not a very big wide-body either, with all the advantages it has.
Regards


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 22, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3386 times:

Quoting CV990 (Reply 22):
Hi!

Back to the summer of 1998 I was in Fresno/CA and on my way back to Europe I flew from LAX to JFK in a UA 762 ( N601UA ), I really enjoyed that flight ( red-eye flight in fact...) and it's interesting now to see how the 762 got a niche in this market, flying transcontinental for all those airlines. Then I flew BA 763ER from JFK to LGW and I had one of my most comfortable flights in my life...I think the 767 have one of the greatest configurations ever 2-3-2 it's great...it's not a single aisle plane but it's not a very big wide-body either, with all the advantages it has.
Regards

The 767 is, in my opinion, one of the most comfortable rides around.....the 2-3-2 seating in Y is ideal. The 762 did find a niche flying US transcons, just for the advantages that you point out: its comfortable, it allows 3 class configuration, and its not that big so the total seat count is not huge and allows airlines to maintain frequency is these important markets.

Its a shame that there is no direct replacement for the 762 (and A313).....the A332, and the smallest variants of the 787 and the A350, are or will be far bigger airplanes that really dont address the niche markets flown by the 762. There are rumors that Boeing is looking at a two aisle set up for the largest and most capable members of the Y1 family, so there is a (remote) possibility that a smaller widebody could reappear on the market.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 20):
Often full, but my recent Saturday evening JFK-LAX was 1/3rd full in every class

Gotta love the ""Saturday night specials""......sometimes there are benefits to flying when no one else really wants to!


User currently offlineDeltaAVL From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1893 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3137 times:

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 2):
I've heard on the boards here that they'll operate PHL-CLT and such, but I don't know for sure.

Yep, I know for sure that CLT-PHL is.. US1744..



"We break, We bend, With hand in hand, When hope is gone, Just hang on." -Guster
User currently offlineQqflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2272 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2951 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 4):
AA sometimes assigns a 762ER on the JFK-BDA

Every day. AA 686/415 Is scheduled as a 762 JFK-BDA-JFK. It may get swapped on occasion to a 757, however, it is scheduled as a 762.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 20):
What kind of seats? Since they are only transcon aircraft, can't see them doing the new J product nor any sort of F suite, so what's the plan?

F is getting the coffin seats that used to be on the three-class 763s. I haven't heard yet what's coming for J. Y will remain the same, but those seats don't need replacing. The a/c will also get new sidewalls and overhead bins (777 interior) along with Panasonic's eFX digital inflight entertainment system.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 21):
I'm curious since they among the oldest aircraft in the fleet.

They are the oldest aircraft in the fleet when you look at their average age of 20.5 years. The next oldest by average age is the MD-80 with 17.3 years.



The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
25 RafflesKing : During the winter months, the 762 will fly CLT-PHL more frequently. Atleast the past two winters, I've had atleast 3 options for Envoy upgrades a day
26 Seabosdca : Even if Boeing does the two-aisle Y1, something I would bet money against, it still won't be a 762 replacement on premium services. Y will be very co
27 Ikramerica : Nice. Hopefully replacing the sidewalls will add insulation around the aircon ducting in the J cabin. Those seats are LOUD, LOUD, LOUD. I was lucky e
28 QQflyboy : They are actually adding a seat to F, bringing the total to ten. Not sure how this will work, but additional space for the tenth seat will certainly
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