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Where Will The A380 Pilots Come From?  
User currently offlineTarheel From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 21 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 12447 times:
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With the A380 looming on the horizon as a major player in the airline business, how will the various arilines and private owners find qualified pilots?

57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10895 posts, RR: 37
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 12422 times:

There is an article on this subject in the September issue of Singapore Airlines Kris Flyer Magazine. Title of the article is "Back to (flying) school".

They are telling how the SIA pilots are being trained to fly on the A380 both on simulators and real life situation to sectors in Europe, in the cockpit. The account is done by Capt. Gerard Rene Peacock, who is SIA's A380 Project Pilot. Seven pilots already completed their training then it says that 4 more batches of 8 pilots have also completed their training.
There will be an A380 simulator in Singapore starting September.

This is all coming from Kris Flyer Magazine. I have no link and no scanner to scan the page.

[Edited 2007-09-09 18:23:46]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineOHLHD From Finland, joined Dec 2004, 3962 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 12408 times:

Quoting Tarheel (Thread starter):
With the A380 looming on the horizon as a major player in the airline business, how will the various arilines and private owners find qualified pilots?

Just where any other pilots are found??? Sorry but I do not see your point.  Smile


User currently offlineWildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2611 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 12318 times:

Well, given the cockpit commonality across the whole Airbus FBW aircraft line-up, the recipe would be:
1. Grab some senior A330/A340 pilots
2. Put them to the A380 simulator for the necessary time
3. Enjoy

Or I'm too naive and the recipe would be entirely different?


User currently offlineGlobeEx From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 742 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 12320 times:

Well I think, what he means....
Most of the pilots will probably transfer from A330s and A340s, which will be the easiest. I guess, airlines operating no/not only A340/A330s will also tranfer crew from their 777 and 747 fleet.

GlobeEx



As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
User currently offlineDualQual From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 769 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 12187 times:

Airlines will get them from the most senior pilots that bid for it from other equipment (other Airbus/Boeing equipment).

User currently offlineLeezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4042 posts, RR: 53
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 12181 times:

Quoting DualQual (Reply 5):
Airlines will get them from the most senior pilots that bid for it from other equipment (other Airbus/Boeing equipment).

Which then means that all the other pilots will move up the list a bit meaning there will be some openings at the bottom for me when I'm qualified ha ha !!.

 Smile



"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
User currently offlineAndz From South Africa, joined Feb 2004, 8453 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 12160 times:
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Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 3):
Put them to the A380 simulator

Which begs another question... how did Airbus program the simulator to train the pilots who flew the first one? How do you program a sim for a plane that has never flown?



After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
User currently offlineOHLHD From Finland, joined Dec 2004, 3962 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 12142 times:

Why only " senior" pilots? We need F/O´s too!  Smile

User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8368 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 12070 times:

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 6):
Which then means that all the other pilots will move up the list a bit meaning there will be some openings at the bottom for me when I'm qualified ha ha !!.

It's not always like that. If you're not increasing the number of pilot positions then there's no vacancy to move up to. At SQ for example, the A380 is replacing some 744's so they'll just move the 744 pilots to A380, hence the recent disagreement in the pay scale for the A380.


User currently offlineWildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2611 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 12030 times:

Quoting Andz (Reply 7):
Which begs another question... how did Airbus program the simulator to train the pilots who flew the first one? How do you program a sim for a plane that has never flown?

I'd expect them to collect flight data necessary for the sim programming during the certification tests fligths (and all other flights in Airbus livery)


User currently offlineAndz From South Africa, joined Feb 2004, 8453 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 11919 times:
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Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 10):
I'd expect them to collect flight data necessary for the sim programming during the certification tests fligths (and all other flights in Airbus livery)

You didn't read my post.



After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8368 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 11805 times:

Quoting Andz (Reply 7):
Which begs another question... how did Airbus program the simulator to train the pilots who flew the first one? How do you program a sim for a plane that has never flown?

They designed the plane so one whould expect them to know under what parameters the plane must fly  Smile


User currently offlineTarheel From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 21 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 11744 times:
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I was trying to open the discussion to areas like: does every buyer of an A380 need to have a simulator? does the billionaire buying for his personal use trust a pilot with only simulator training and no lengthy experience in a brand new product?

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21529 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 11739 times:

They will come from existing pilot pools by way of flight simulators, just like for the 787 and all other new types before the A380.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineWildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2611 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 11675 times:

Quoting Andz (Reply 11):
You didn't read my post.

I rather didn't expect such question. Especially from you.


User currently offlineGlobeEx From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 742 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 11660 times:

Quoting Tarheel (Reply 13):
does the billionaire buying for his personal use trust a pilot with only simulator training and no lengthy experience in a brand new product?

That is true, but due to the comments pilots who flew the A380 is probably a number easier to fly than a 767. Size isn't everything. The fact that you start flying an A320 or 737 at an airline isn't due to the fact, that it easier to fly but a matter of responsiblity due to the pure number of passengers. Size isn't always everything.

GlobeEx



As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2825 posts, RR: 45
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 11526 times:

Quoting Tarheel (Reply 13):
does the billionaire buying for his personal use trust a pilot with only simulator training and no lengthy experience in a brand new product?

Well that's what EVERYBODY has to do when the airplane is new. Normally the first time a pilot flys the real aircraft, it's on a revenue flight with people in the back with a Line Check Airman next to them.


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 11467 times:

Quoting Andz (Reply 7):
Which begs another question... how did Airbus program the simulator to train the pilots who flew the first one? How do you program a sim for a plane that has never flown?

They program the airplane to fly like the simulator!


User currently offlinePlanespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3527 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 11425 times:

Quoting Tarheel (Thread starter):
With the A380 looming on the horizon as a major player in the airline business, how will the various arilines and private owners find qualified pilots?

The same way all other pilots are found...simulators, instructors, ground school, etc...

Quoting Andz (Reply 7):
Which begs another question... how did Airbus program the simulator to train the pilots who flew the first one? How do you program a sim for a plane that has never flown?

It's called a first flight for a reason.

First flights are flown by test pilots for a reason also.



Do you like movies about gladiators?
User currently offlineEBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10982 times:

Quoting Andz (Reply 7):
Which begs another question... how did Airbus program the simulator to train the pilots who flew the first one? How do you program a sim for a plane that has never flown?

The engineers program the simulator to respond to what the airplane is designed to do. Everything is factored in: engine power, anticipated flight performance, flight control characteristics, etc. You factor in all the knowns and can get a very realistic simulation of what the final product will do. With computer assisted design, you can virtually know what the real airplane will do before it even flies.

I recall seeing a video about the YF-23 and it was computer simulation that helped the engineers design a flight control system that would work on the airplane. The project test pilot did the simulator flying and crashed several times, as I recall, before the engineers got it right. I suspect Boeing has at least one flight simulator for the 787 already and probably had simulators for the first 777 pilots as well.



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13120 posts, RR: 100
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10689 times:
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Quoting Andz (Reply 7):

Which begs another question... how did Airbus program the simulator to train the pilots who flew the first one? How do you program a sim for a plane that has never flown?

Chuckle...

The simulator is programed to "fly" as the airframe is anticipated to fly. But you do know there is such a thing as test pilots? Everyone does realize a test pilot does not graduate "test pilot school" until they can jump in the cockpit of an unknown aircraft type and prove that they can fly it. Not to mention the first flights are done "unloaded" and thus there is more margin to abort (landing or takeoff).

Now is the poster referring to the overall shortage of pilots that is anticipated? If so, I'm not expecting an airline taking on A380's to have an issue grabbing pilots. Business jet pilots would be more than happy enough to jump to the right seat of an A320. A320 pilots certainly won't turn down a pay raise to fly the A330/340 (whom are the most likely picks for the A380).

The airlines to hurt for pilots will not be those that pay well. It will be those whom choose not to compete at competitive wages for those pilots in the 2,500 to 4,000 hour range. Let's face it. Once a pilot is "locked into" a seniority scale, they are pretty much stuck.

Its a problem that the market will naturally correct. e.g., perhaps EK will need to boost salaries to grow at their planned rate. Ok... They'll boost salaries and other airlines can choose to match or not. If salaries rise enough, the pilot schools will fill up very quickly. (There will always be more people dreaming of being a pilot than can financially achieve the goal.)

We're hearing some pain from the regional carriers. But part of that is due to their abysmally low salaries forced unto them by their contracts. We're also hearing about pilot schools losing instructions. Cest la vie. This is how it should go. If the pain ever leaves pilot schools/regionals/corporate jets I would be very surprised.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinePlanespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3527 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10598 times:

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 21):
If the pain ever leaves pilot schools/regionals/corporate jets I would be very surprised.

A little off topic but...tell me, what pain is there in corporate jets?



Do you like movies about gladiators?
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8368 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10519 times:

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 21):
We're hearing some pain from the regional carriers. But part of that is due to their abysmally low salaries forced unto them by their contracts. We're also hearing about pilot schools losing instructions. Cest la vie. This is how it should go. If the pain ever leaves pilot schools/regionals/corporate jets I would be very surprised.

There's such a shortage of pilots in the World that sooner or later commercial airlines will have no choice but to offer more.
NetJets is on a hiring spree, they plan to hire 350 pilots this year alone, and they'll do just about anything to get new pilots including sponsoring your commercial pilot license. They've also just raised salaries quite significantly. Commercial airlines will soon start to feel the pinch. I hope they're prepared for it.


User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10305 times:

Quoting Tarheel (Thread starter):
With the A380 looming on the horizon as a major player in the airline business, how will the various arilines and private owners find qualified pilots?



Quoting Andz (Reply 7):
Which begs another question... how did Airbus program the simulator to train the pilots who flew the first one? How do you program a sim for a plane that has never flown?

Sorry, I'm not trying to funny in the slightest, but what's the object of these? Where do pilots (and simulators from their conceptions) from every aircraft that have ever flown come from, so I really fail to see why anyone would be asking any different concerning the A380?


25 Jimbobjoe : I have been lead to believe, based on other posts on this board, that this is a point presented to justify pilot pay based on the size of the airplan
26 AJ : At my airline they are presently getting Airbus time on the A330 before the A380 arrives. Positions will then be allocated on seniority. The delays in
27 Post contains images Lightsaber : Pilot defections to higher paying positions. I didn't mean to imply anything else, so mea culpa on my poor wording. Wow. That is one way to ensure a
28 747400sp : I would think Airlines like SQ and QF would chose some of there more senior 747 400 pilots.
29 Post contains images Zvezda : If that doesn't work, perhaps a stork might deliver some.
30 Ikramerica : Actually, it's a marxist construct forced upon capitalist markets by socialist unions. It would not exist if not for the unions, as pilots would be p
31 Hamster : Is there that much difference in flying a 340 vs a 380? Isn't a a landing gear control a stick with a little wheel at the end of it that is pulled up
32 JKJ777 : Where Will The A380 Pilots Come From? Well, when a man and a woman love each other, they decide to get together and show their affection. A man puts h
33 Post contains images Maersk737 : And pilots would stay in the air for at least 20 hours a day, 7 days a week Cheers Peter
34 SSTsomeday : As a mere matter of interest, Is the 380 being offered with either the "joystick" or the "control column" option?
35 NAV20 : As far as I know there has been no 'control column' option on any Airbus since the A310. Also as far as I know, Qantas only operates 10 X Airbuses at
36 Post contains images WildcatYXU : Now that would be a hell of a stork. Or perhaps a "Whalestork", genetically modified by Airbus?
37 Tdscanuck : In addition to all of the above re: computer modeling, don't forget that any new commercial aircraft has hundreds or thousands of hours of wind-tunne
38 YULWinterSkies : Well, since usually larger airplane fly longer routes with more jet-lag, more time away from home for the pilots, i think this scheme totally makes s
39 Barney Captain : That's cute. No. it really has nothing to do responsibility and the number of pax, and everything to do with seniority and which type pays more. At m
40 GlobeEx : If airlines would really only want to let pilots credit from their "seniority" they would just would pay them more and let everybody choose what type
41 Ikramerica : No, they wouldn't. Increased pay for larger aircraft has nothing to do with flight time per month. The former is not safety related. Unions do great
42 Bok269 : Problem is, if pilot A and B want to fly the same plane, but there is only one spot left, who gets it?
43 Post contains images Maersk737 : I really hope so And I think you would too Jokes a side. I know what you are saying, but actually...How can you say this? He could be worth 10 times
44 Charliejag1 : Computers can simulate the entire flight envelope of an aircraft. Airbus knew exactly how the aircraft would perform even before it took to the air f
45 DMAJ7TH : I hear they are recruiting A380 pilots who have extensive FS2004 experience. Although, you need the rudder pedals and a realistic paint scheme on your
46 GlobeEx : Well, then put it differently. Airline X does need a pilot for a 747. It can put a captain already flying a 737 in the 747 but also has the possibili
47 Burkhard : Wasn't the A380 designed just to fly like an A330/340, which flies like any A320. While for Boeings you need 737Classic, 737NG, 757=767, 744, 777 and
48 Bok269 : My point exactly?
49 Itsnotfinals : Propaganda, it's more than 2 days to go from the A32X to the A330/340
50 Post contains images NAV20 : I've always distrusted this notion. In my limited experience every aeroplane 'feels' different, and size is usually one of the key determinants, as i
51 Burkhard : Do not forget that these aircraft are completely software controlled - you do not fly them manually. So the differences can be hidden behind the softw
52 NAV20 : Sorry Burkhard, that just isn't so. Virtually all takeoffs, and a high proportion of touchdowns, are still flown manually. FBW software mainly has to
53 Tdscanuck : Going up from A320 still requires differences training. A330 and A340 don't have a common type rating (different number of engines). You're using two
54 RayChuang : I'll hazard a guess that among the first Singapore Airlines A380 pilots were those who had flown the A340-300 and current A340-500 pilots, since the A
55 Bok269 : It may be easier, but seniority is the determining factor.
56 ReidYYZ : In some companies, the crew seniority is regardless of a/c type. There is no 'type seniority' i.e.: the top sen. cap't on an A320 could fall in 5th i
57 Bok269 : Exactly. No company will prevent their high seniority pilots from flying domestic narrowbody service. However, what Barney Captain was referencing th
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