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Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage  
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 19658 times:

Reuters, Tuesday, September 11, 2007; 3:07 PM

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Boeing Co's (BA.N) chief executive pointed the finger at Alcoa Inc (AA.N) and others for the lack of bolts that has delayed the first flight of its new 787 Dreamliner and threatens its delivery schedule.

The shortage of aluminum and titanium bolts -- known as fasteners in the aerospace industry -- has been publicly discussed by Boeing for six months or so, but the problem is still not completely solved, Boeing CEO Jim McNerney said at an investor presentation on Tuesday.

McNerney said its fastener suppliers are catching up, but full resolution of the shortage is not "guaranteed."

"We have a lot of temporary fasteners in that first airplane, that are now being reworked," he said. "The supply chain is just gradually catching up."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2007/09/11/AR2007091101310.html



Boeing outsourced most work on the 787.

IMO outsourcing responsibility for a delay is not the mother of all leadership.

186 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31003 posts, RR: 86
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 19647 times:
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Well since making fasteners is not a "core competency" at Boeing, they went to companies where it is.

And those suppliers have been unable to meet Boeing's needs, even with months - if not years - of advance notice and orders.

So I don't see where, exactly, it is the fault of Boeing management...  confused 


User currently offlineShenzhen From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 1710 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 19615 times:

Boeing are sounding more and more like Airbus during the A380 delays. I doubt too many (only the true believers) ever thought that the IFE vendors were at fault (or the customers themselves).

Lets hope it doesn't turn out to be a 2 year delay, but one would think that the curtain is beginning to close on a 2008 delivery.

Cheers


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 19616 times:

The Chinese demand for such materials has created a worldwide shortage, mainly because companies aren't willing to increase production fast enough (instead, charging higher prices for the products they produce).

Why is it only problematic for the 787 though? Shouldn't all aircraft lines be effected?



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 19580 times:

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 2):
Boeing are sounding more and more like Airbus during the A380 delays. I doubt too many (only the true believers) ever thought that the IFE vendors were at fault (or the customers themselves).

Airbus initially blamed customers for asking for interior fittings Airbus themselves sold them on.

Boeing is not blaming customers as far as I can tell. They are saying they have a PARTS SHORTAGE and why anyone would doubt that there is actually a parts shortage is beyond me, considering it is well established to be true.

Prices of all sorts of building materials, industrial and otherwise, have gone up in recent years due to these shortages. Heck, even cement is in short supply.

And further, why anyone would doubt Airbus when they say the IFE wiring was causing them problems of interference is also beyond me, since that was TRUE.

Oh well.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineShenzhen From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 1710 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 19537 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
Airbus initially blamed customers for asking for interior fittings Airbus themselves sold them on.

Boeing is not blaming customers as far as I can tell. They are saying they have a PARTS SHORTAGE and why anyone would doubt that there is actually a parts shortage is beyond me, considering it is well established to be true.

Prices of all sorts of building materials, industrial and otherwise, have gone up in recent years due to these shortages. Heck, even cement is in short supply.

And further, why anyone would doubt Airbus when they say the IFE wiring was causing them problems of interference is also beyond me, since that was TRUE.

Oh well.

Its all just a conveinent little piece of an overall puzzle that is missing a lot more parts then fasteners and IFE. IFE isn't required to deliver an airplane, just like it doesn't require permanent fasteners at the splices to install the airplane systems and wiring.

In addition, Airbus tried to blame Customers for being late in specifying their airplanes (which was re-buffed quite quickly, as THEY are the customer, not Airbus). The simularities lie in the finger pointing in general.

Cheers

[Edited 2007-09-11 22:48:02]

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 19499 times:

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):

BTW - why did you not quote the parts of the article where ALCOA accepts responsibility? You break the rules of quoting in your original post by not using ... or other markers to indicate you EDITED someone else's copyrighted material. It is against the law to post the way you did, just so you know...

Since some won't read the article, they will jump to conclusions similar to Shenzhen's.

For example, this quote from ALCOA means something:

Quote:
Alcoa, which makes the bolts for the 787 at plants in southern California, said it was tackling the issue.

"We are working with them (Boeing) to try to get them as many fasteners as we possibly can for this program," Alcoa spokesman Kevin Lowery said. "Every day we are getting them more and more -- we are making great progress."

Sure sounds like Boeing is making it up...  Wink



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineShenzhen From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 1710 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 19394 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
Since some won't read the article, they will jump to conclusions similar to Shenzhen's.

Shenzhen didn't jump to a conclusion, as he knows there is a shortage of fasteners, but that is just the tip of the iceberg.
Yep, the bottleneck has been reached and new contingency plans are being generated.

Cheers


User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4695 posts, RR: 50
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 19394 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):

So I don't see where, exactly, it is the fault of Boeing management... confused

Let's just say you order a cheese and ham sandwich, but the shop does not have butter so your sandwich isn't delivered at noon (as promised) but rather at 3pm. Would you blame the buttersupplier? Of course not, you blame the sandwich bar.

If you outsource things that does not change your obligations towards your customers. If you outsource you have to make sure they can deliver at the service level you want/need. For example, outsourcing your helpdesk to India is a cheap option but has a low service level. This directly influences the view of the customer towards your company.



For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineMoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3948 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 19346 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):

Airbus initially blamed customers for asking for interior fittings Airbus themselves sold them on.

This is a fallacy that has rapidly grown into a myth here on a.net - Airbus initially blamed the problems on the number and complexity of different interior fittings, but they did not blame their customers for that.

Back on topic - this milestone for the 787 has been a long time planned so its not as if the demand has suddenly crept up on the industry, so why was Boeing or its suppliers not stockpiling these integral parts months before when the demand was shown?


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 19327 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
You break the rules of quoting in your original post by not using ... or other markers to indicate you EDITED someone else's copyrighted material.

I did edit nothing and provided the source. It did not quote the full article, which happens often I might say.

You seem to be making false aquisition to discredit me. Childish "kill the messenger" that has no place here on a.net (or should have no place..), leading to flaimbait, giving mods an excuse to delete the thread. Worrying but unfortunately succesfull tactic.


User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1967 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 19258 times:

Whether or not this is Boeing's fault I can't say, but I think this sort of thing will happen more and more in industry as financial analysts so strongly influencing decision making. Boeing would be looked upon badly if they had millions of dollars worth of fasteners in stock. So would Alcoa. So where should they be? Only in a planning queue? I see this problem on a daily basis, only to a smaller degree.

User currently offlineJPRM1 From France, joined Aug 2007, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 19258 times:

I think we are here facing the problem of the responsability of the supply chain. As Boeing did gave the responsability to each of the partners, no direct follow-up of the suppliers upstream was probably organized. In the article from Washington Post, it is said that Alcoa did bought different suppliers some years ago and probably did reorganize the production, Who cared? No inventory was imposed or organize?
I start really thinking that small things (bolts) will lead to a big problem!


User currently offlineBarbarian From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 54 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 19214 times:

Is that really a picture of the 787 as it was during the roll out ceremony?

If so that is shocking, not just the number of slaves being used, but also the number of locations without any kind of fastener in at all.
Many of those locations haven't even been protected prior to paint, and have now got paint in the hole and the countersink. All that will need to be cleaned out without damaging or oversizing the hole, and as a result they are sure to end up with quite a lot of 901/902's going in, or do they have some clever way of repairing a composite hole back to nom. instead of oversizing?
If not, and they had a problem with nominal production fasteners, how on earth are they going to deal with all the oversize ones required after that?
Finally, where they do appear to have got a production fastener in, they look either proud or shallow... just does not look good at all.
Apologies if the picture isnt of the 787, but if it is then its a lot worse than i had thought from the various press reports i had read previously. Hopefully this is the worst area, and not indicative of the rest of the aircraft.


User currently offlineYellowstone From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3071 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 19198 times:

Quoting JRadier (Reply 8):
Let's just say you order a cheese and ham sandwich, but the shop does not have butter so your sandwich isn't delivered at noon (as promised) but rather at 3pm. Would you blame the buttersupplier? Of course not, you blame the sandwich bar.

OTOH, if there is a nation-wide butter shortage because the butter suppliers can't keep up with demand, you'd probably get frustrated that the sandwich bar didn't give you an accurate time of delivery estimate, but you'd understand that it is not the sandwich bar's fault that the butter wasn't there, especially when both the sandwich bar and the butter salesman admit that.

By the way, who puts butter on a ham and cheese sandwich anyway?



Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6593 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 19169 times:
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Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
And those suppliers have been unable to meet Boeing's needs, even with months - if not years - of advance notice and orders.

So I don't see where, exactly, it is the fault of Boeing management.

It is called Supply Chain Management.



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineAF2323 From France, joined Aug 2007, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 19155 times:

Its not directly Boeing's fault, but I think you always have some kind of responsability when you outsource something. You have to make sure your supplier is doing what is needed to fulfill your requests.

User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3409 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 19130 times:

Quoting Moo (Reply 9):
This is a fallacy that has rapidly grown into a myth here on a.net - Airbus initially blamed the problems on the number and complexity of different interior fittings, but they did not blame their customers for that.

Moo, do you work for the revisionist history channel? They very much did blame the customers for thier problems.

even worse is when they blamed Engine Alliance for the failure for the first Engine alliance test aircraft not flying.... and they got busted with 4 EA engines sitting outside undertarps at the time that they were saying that EA never sent them the engines.


User currently offlineSilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2104 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 19130 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 10):

You seem to be making false aquisition to discredit me. Childish "kill the messenger" that has no place here on a.net (or should have no place..), leading to flaimbait, giving mods an excuse to delete the thread. Worrying but unfortunately succesfull tactic.

Stop with the martyr routine already, we all know better. Redacting contradictory quotes from a cited passage is unethical at best.

How many airframe manufacturers have their own foundries for forging fasteners (bolts)? This is an industry problem, not some monumental screw up within the 787 program. It does back up some of the things that Newhouse wrote in his AvB book about Boeing becoming very focused on time lines.


User currently offlineWsp From Germany, joined May 2007, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 19090 times:

In the other conference call it was clearly explained that the shortage is not a problem of overall production speed of these fasteners but rather the amount of different fastener types.

They have only one system to produce them and for every type of fastener they run a large batch. So to get all fastener types required on one aircraft they need to run a full batch of each type.

My understanding is that the person planning these processes was not aware of this limitation and did not start buffering these different fastener types in advance as would have been required. I have a hard time believing that such a mistake would be made at Alcoa who know their own system. And in my experience it is up to the buyer to place orders taking into account the manufacturer's limitations.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
For example, this quote from ALCOA means something:

The quote means that Alcoa tries to help Boeing. Certainly they are not taking responsibility in that quote.

P.S. If we start discussing Airbus in this thread we might quickly end up with 150 posts before we have even separated the a.net-Myths from the actual statements made by the company.


User currently offlineAviator27 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 19061 times:

Those are some rather aerodynamic bolds. Okay so they are temporary. No wonder Airbus keeps their laser welding technique under wraps. Blame the bolt shortage on the communists. Right, that will do it. Ramp up for the B787 has been several years in the running. I think they had years to figure out how many bolts they needed for the first airframe. Now they are saying the suppliers couldn't deliver? I smell a rat. Say anything to keep the stock price up. Sounds familiar? All I can say is "speed tape".

User currently offlineBlrsea From India, joined May 2005, 1423 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 19062 times:

How many fasterners are required for each 787? Is it in the order of thousands? What is the production rate of Alcoa for these fasteners? The article is not clear on who misjudged. Did Boeing inform Alcoa how many fasterners were required each month? Is Alcoa itself facing raw material shortage of Titanium etc ( given that there was global titanium shortage)?

User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4695 posts, RR: 50
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 18997 times:

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 15):

OTOH, if there is a nation-wide butter shortage because the butter suppliers can't keep up with demand, you'd probably get frustrated that the sandwich bar didn't give you an accurate time of delivery estimate, but you'd understand that it is not the sandwich bar's fault that the butter wasn't there, especially when both the sandwich bar and the butter salesman admit that.

It might not be the fault of the sandwich bar, but it sure is the responsibility. I know I'd get pissed if I got my lunch 3 hours late.

It's Boeing's problem that they don't have enough fasteners. They made a deal with several airlines with delivery dates etc. By doing so you take responsibility of making sure you keep up your end of the contract (delivering the aircraft). That's why you do a SWOT-analysis (google it) of the company, including your supply chain. As the booming economy is nothing new (including china's) this should have come up as a Thread and should have been taken care of. Getting the number of fasteners from the Bill of Material is (even in a very large one such as an aircraft) isn't exactly a hard task, neither is calculating your safety stock. It's all freshman stuff in a logistics study.

[Edited 2007-09-11 23:36:07]


For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31003 posts, RR: 86
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 18808 times:
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Quoting JRadier (Reply 8):
If you outsource things that does not change your obligations towards your customers. If you outsource you have to make sure they can deliver at the service level you want/need. For example, outsourcing your helpdesk to India is a cheap option but has a low service level. This directly influences the view of the customer towards your company.



Quoting JPRM1 (Reply 12):
I think we are here facing the problem of the responsability of the supply chain. As Boeing did gave the responsability to each of the partners, no direct follow-up of the suppliers upstream was probably organized. In the article from Washington Post, it is said that Alcoa did bought different suppliers some years ago and probably did reorganize the production, Who cared? No inventory was imposed or organize? I start really thinking that small things (bolts) will lead to a big problem!



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 16):
It is called Supply Chain Management.



Quoting JRadier (Reply 24):
It's Boeing's problem that they don't have enough fasteners. They made a deal with several airlines with delivery dates etc. By doing so you take responsibility of making sure you keep up your end of the contract (delivering the aircraft). That's why you do a SWOT-analysis (google it) of the company, including your supply chain. As the booming economy is nothing new (including china's) this should have come up as a Thread and should have been taken care of. Getting the number of fasteners from the Bill of Material is (even in a very large one such as an aircraft) isn't exactly a hard task, neither is calculating your safety stock. It's all freshman stuff in a logistics study.

All of these statements imply, at least to me, a belief that Boeing just signed a contract for fasteners and then walked away, humming a merry tune.

This is not true.

Boeing has been working with Alcoa and other fastener manufacturers, as well as securing large and long-term deals for the raw materials (Ti and Al) necessary to make them. They knew how many of these things they'd need per plane and knew how many planes they were going to build and therefore knew how many fasteners they would need at each step of production. And they then contracted out with suppliers who promised they'd get them to Boeing as scheduled.

As a customer, I might blame the sandwich shop for not having the butter, but as the sandwich shop owner, I'd be chewing out the arse of the butter supplier who didn't get me the butter I ordered delivered when I contracted it to be. And like the sandwich owner who ran down to the store and bought some margarine to hold him over, Boeing did the same with fasteners from Home Depot.

And it's not like the 787 is the first commercial airliner to need fasteners. Every Boeing plane does. So Boeing can "supply chain manage" the 737, 747, 767, 777 programs - plus all their military programs that need fasteners - but can't do so for the 787?  redflag 

The simple fact is that Boeing's suppliers have failed to meet their contracts. They promised Boeing a delivery schedule they couldn't meet. That failure will cost Boeing time and might cost them money, but Boeing will no doubt be getting their pound of flesh out of those suppliers for their failure to perform.

[Edited 2007-09-12 00:01:18]

User currently offlineShenzhen From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 1710 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 18743 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 25):

The simple fact is that Boeing's suppliers have failed to meet their contracts. They promised Boeing a delivery schedule they couldn't meet. That failure will cost Boeing time and might cost them money, but Boeing will no doubt be getting their pound of flesh out of those suppliers for their failure to perform.

Maybe Boeing's suppliers should blame Enron....  Smile


25 Blrsea : The article says that Boeing has been talking about delay in fasteners publicly for the last six months(since march). They might have been aware of i
26 Pygmalion : Couldn't just let these misconceptions pass on by... so just to clarify for those who don't build LCA for a living... So, your input is to go ahead an
27 Tismfu : It is correct to insert [...] when you selectively chose sentences/paragraphs from different parts of a source text and combine them, thereby redacti
28 SJCRRPAX : I think WSP explained it fairly well. The problem is that these fastners are made on automated Lathes, that take quite awhile to set up and breakdown
29 USAF336TFS : Get used to it. Airbus is already saying that, at the very least, 50% of the A350 will be outsourced. While I'm in agreement with you about being unc
30 Terryb99 : Sorry, but the buck stops at Boeing. I am in the aviation parts business. We stock several million dollars worth of parts, but we also "broker" a subs
31 Shenzhen : Actually, my input is that the wiring doesn't run under the insulation, thruough a hole in each frame, and on top of the splices. Cheers
32 Post contains images Stitch : Boeing and Alcoa have been trying to work around each other, but in the end, Alcoa had a hard delivery date and so did Boeing. And Alcoa's inability
33 EbbUK : Absolutely, Boeing would never say that. Who they blame is as written in the title of the post. He actually didn't need to as there was agreement in
34 Stitch : People are asking why there is a shortage of fasteners. What is Boeing supposed to say? Pirates hijacked the shipment in Puget Sound? They got lost i
35 EbbUK : There is one and only one distinction with the thing they call the buck. It stops once. No stop-overs. It is the fullest expression of responsibility
36 Post contains links Khobar : Boeing doesn't make fasteners, and Boeing did NOT outsource the joining work evidenced in the photo. This is disappointing Keesje - I know from readi
37 JTR : Trying to turn a worldwide shortage of a product onto Boeing's shoulders is ridiculous. Blame the airlines for the unprecedented demand, blame the fly
38 Post contains images Flysherwood : Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Boeing just telling everyone what the problem is? I really didn't see Boeing not taking responsibility for the del
39 LTBEWR : There could be several factors here: 1) Demand, especially from China and elsewhere for these and similar fasteners from reliable quality sources is p
40 EbbUK : No that is part of the answer given to the question, are you going to deliver the 787 on time as you promised?(valid as it is the investors who want
41 OldAeroGuy : Using fastners as an example of outsourcing is a bit far fetched. If Toyota had trouble delivering cars because of a tire shortage, would you take th
42 Azhobo : I am sure the problems are more than the fasteners which seems to be the emphasis by Boeing. My guess is Boeing picked the long pole out of the tent
43 Post contains images Stitch : Call me naive or call me biased, but I don't see any "leadership issue" at Boeing on this issue or any other. They have not thrown Alcoa or Alenia or
44 UnknownUser : What are you basing your 'sureness' on? You'd surly be joking if you had no basis other than just a guess, right? #@^$!!! It really angers me that th
45 Azhobo : I will keep it simple for you. DO you beleive that Boeing would have flown in august had it had all the fasteners needed for one aircraft back in May
46 AirNZ : Actually no, it is Boeing who put themselves in the position by not making sure their suppliers could do it. I would have expected more from a compan
47 Post contains images Stitch : As I stated in Reply #1 - building fasteners is not a core competency of Boeing's, so they contracted with companies where it was! Boeing never owned
48 Tdscanuck : They are. Yes, it does. Just like the excellent example above regarding installing the hubcap before the lugnuts, you need access to the backside of
49 USAF336TFS : Okay... Reading further, there seems to be a rush to play the blame-game here, which, I don't read from either Boeing's nor Alcoa's management. The f
50 Sxf24 : Alcoa has the resources and ability to increase fastener production. It has chosen not meet the rapidly increased demand.
51 Post contains links Stratofortress : The plane is still on schedule!!!!!! http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070911/boeing_787.html?.v=2 Quit opining and stick to the facts... 787 execution is nothi
52 Post contains links BoomBoom : Blame 9/11 787 Dreamliner Fastener Shortage Traced to 9/11 http://www.designnews.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA6476301
53 BlueSkys : How hard is it to get fasteners??? Really....
54 Shenzhen : Your are joking, right? Wire bundles routed under the floor are going to block access to a longitudinal splice. Installing the flight deck is going t
55 SirOmega : If the cost of adding capacity is amoritized over 15 years, and the airline industry has a huge downturn (for whatever reason) in 5 years, you're add
56 UnknownUser : Yep, end of discussion about any delays in the delivery. All you arm-chair know-it-alls can just cram it.
57 StuckInCA : Don't let it disappoint you. The sun rises every day. Keesje is clearly informed and intelligent enough to start more worthy topics, but it isn't in
58 Ken777 : That pretty well shows how one (or a few) people not understanding their job(s) can screw up a major program. It also shows how fragile just in time
59 Post contains images EbbUK : No just for the Toyota they promised me as customer or as an investor, the return on investment they forecast. One has legal safeguards and can vote
60 Post contains links 777DEN : actually pretty hard, since we are talking about lock fasteners not bolts : http://www.alcoa.com/fastening_syste...product.asp?cat_id=671&prod_id=824
61 Mijoatlanta : Isn't this alleged blame between suppliers and Boeing really just a tactic by critics more or less looking to discredit the leadership of management o
62 Post contains images Stitch : The suppliers who did everything right shouldn't have a surplus and they should be getting paid on schedule because they're delivering on schedule. A
63 Post contains images PolymerPlane : Oh yes... You know best on how to put an airplane together, while those idiots at Boeing doesn't know what's going on with 787. Do you have a slighte
64 USAF336TFS : Given those circumstances, which is exactly OPPOSITE the current discussion's, I would more likely have an over abundance of parts, right? So are you
65 Shenzhen : Deleted, because even PolymerPlane didn't deserve what was said. Cheers[Edited 2007-09-12 06:33:12]
66 Post contains images Shenzhen : You would think that they would expect one airplane to be built...... hey just joking
67 707lvr : The only way McNerney could have been more diplomatic regarding Alcoa would have been not to mention fasteners at all. The spin to "blame" and "finger
68 Bringiton : Lets make some Points clear - - Boeing leadership is NOT BLAMING OR USING THE WORD "BLAME" with respect to any suppliers . - The word BLAME came out o
69 Post contains images Wsp : It might be your tinnitus that you hear. I was referring to Reply 18, though admittedly I was too lazy to add the quote. " target=_blank>http://seatt
70 SSTsomeday : Quoting Tismfu (Reply 28): A.net's no school or institution of higher learning, but let's strive for some transparency... Hello all. I'm trying to say
71 L-188 : Sounds like smart buisness practice to me and it also allows you to be able to sue somebody if it screws up. Make it all yourself and the buck stops
72 Post contains images Astuteman : That they expected the problem to have been resolved by now? Don't see the words "It's not our fault - blame the airlines" anywhere in there Sounds f
73 Post contains images Iwok : That is definitely the most important aspect of this thread Don't they throw mayo on fries in Holland? Definitely no myth. Unlike Boeing, Airbus with
74 XT6Wagon : you have never worked on a car or other assembly of sub-assemblies before have you? Its almost a law that any bolt absolutely needed to be removed wi
75 Shenzhen : Boeing have stated that the barrel sections will be DELIVERED TO BOEING WITH THE AIRPLANE STUFFED, YET THE SECTIONS STILL NEED TO BE SPLICED TOGETHER
76 XT6Wagon : Maybe its because plane #1 isn't being prestuffed, and atleast I don't know if its using production exact wiring or not. Its very possible to conform
77 Cloudyapple : So why do you think they need all the Al and Ti in the world? It's because the consuming countries like where you and you are are buying stuff the Ch
78 WINGS : Aviator27, has brought up a very valid and important point. Airbus in recent projects A318, A340-500/600HGW have relied on laser welding techniques.
79 BrianDromey : I would say, at a guess, that Lazer welding changes the way an aircraft is produced, and therefore would be expensive to do without a major redesign.
80 Astuteman : AFAIK there are very small quantities of laser welding on these planes, primarily on wing rib/skin joints (although I'm not the expert here..). I can
81 WINGS : This seems to make sense, although I would have expected the changes to be gradually introduced on to the remaining A32X family. This very same quest
82 DAYflyer : Sounds to me like Boeing needs to fire some vendors and find some new suppliers.
83 XT6Wagon : be interesting to see how much laser welding can reduce the cost of items like the frames, where its a complex item of very large dimensions. Also ma
84 Post contains images Stitch : For the Al frame, they may very well do so. However, I tend to think they won't try to laser weld the CFRP panels to that frame.
85 Sxf24 : What new suppliers? There is minimal available production capacity and Boeing (and Airbus) are scrapping the bottom of the barrel to keep their suppl
86 Post contains images USAF336TFS : Fascinating isn't it? Call me naive here, but I smell yet another attempt at "bomb throwing". There is really nothing new here, well at least concern
87 Post contains images JRadier : Obviously they didn't cover it enough. I'm going to refer to Wsp here, as I couldn't say it better. If it is that important to you, you make sure you
88 Iwok : You might want to re-check your assumptions and ideological statements. How many of those planes make their way back to China and Asia in general? De
89 Stitch : Obviously they didn't cover it enough. Yeah, and DeHavilland didn't cover metal fatigue enough, Douglas didn't cover hydraulic cabling enough and Air
90 DAYflyer : So then, how many suppliers of the fasteners are there? Can't Boeing or Airbus do this themselves?
91 JRadier : First of all, I don't care if it's Boeing, Airbus or my own company (people who know me know I bitch about them as well), it's about some remarks bein
92 Pygmalion : The problem is not at the "splices" but intermediate to those "splices". I see where you are getting the misconception but you are wrong. The wiring
93 Post contains images Flysherwood : What delivery promise have they not met with the 787?!?!?
94 Post contains images Flysherwood : You want Boeing and Airbus to get into the business of manufacturing bolts????
95 Tdscanuck : Very. These are not machine screws from Home Depot...some of this stuff runs up into the hundreds of dollars *per fastener*. They're piece-built cust
96 Post contains links BoomBoom : The customers seemed to think they were getting blamed for the A380 delay. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/226713_airbus02.html And of course
97 Drahnreb : Which CMMI Level do Boeing have? There is a process area named SAM (Supplier Agreement Management) When they have not enough fasteners for ZA001 do t
98 Stitch : I'm sorry. I just saw your posts as more "piling on" when many of us have tried to explain that Boeing has been working on this issue for sometime. I
99 Stitch : All 787s will use identical sets of fasteners. It is likely the sub-assembly folks in Italy, the US, and Japan are getting first crack at the fastene
100 Post contains images Khobar : "Reply 18 - Stop with the martyr routine already, we all know better. Redacting contradictory quotes from a cited passage is unethical at best. How m
101 Post contains images Astuteman : Where the HELL did I say that? You're right - I'm not usually reactionary. But if I'd been fully aware of a problem for over a year now, I DAMNED wel
102 Post contains images Astuteman : Apologies for the sharp response Khobar - that's what a "reactionary" post looks like It wasn't intended to offend in any way. The sharpness, as I sa
103 Tdscanuck : Mostly 3, but it's not done at the company level so some spots are 2. Tom.
104 Glideslope : "I did not edit anything."
105 Post contains images Khobar : Um, Reply 72: Again, I ask you - how exactly should Boeing have roughed up Alcoa for missing fasteners? Broken Mr. Belda's arms perhaps? Or held his
106 Joni : I have to agree with Keesje here, Boeing can't claim it's "their" plane, outsource whole sections of the fuselage, and then blame the others for dela
107 JoeCanuck : Ackshirly, "I did edit nothing", is as grammatically correct as, "I did not edit anything".
108 Shenzhen : Yet nothing has been installed on the airplane, therefore they aren't even close to connecting the bundles, ducts, plumbing ect which might cover up
109 Alessandro : I think Titanium is still considered a "strategic" metal and several states have a stockpile they refuse to sell. Boeing been investing in Titanium in
110 Astuteman : Er, no I didn't No. At the point these things are delivered, congratulations will be in order. By rigorous management of the bottlenecks right down t
111 Post contains images JRadier : Ok, I wasn't aware of that. Clears up our dispute . Nope, agree with you at least on the last 2 points. Can't be bothered to look back for the other
112 Post contains images BoomBoom : I don't think Boeing has ever claimed it's "their" plane exclusively. They've always been up front about the role of their partners. Would you prefer
113 JRadier : Oh please grow up. Just because someone is critical about one manufacturer it's a fanboy of the other? Please....
114 Khobar : "We'll have the fasteners for LN001 by X, for LN002 by Y" etc etc, to generate real confidence, and stop the speculation." The only way for Boeing to
115 Post contains images Stitch : Folks, we're starting to argue how many angels can dance on a pin. Alcoa has to have an idea of what their "near-term" delivery schedule is like and t
116 Ebbuk : Correct as I am not a scandalous person, I apportion no blame. However, I like a good story, and I am following the one about leadership at Boeing. N
117 Khobar : I agree. Boeing won't know when the fasteners can be delivered until ALCOA knows when they can actually produce them. What we seem to know is that Bo
118 Wsp : The reply I meant has now moved to 17... Before it moves again, here the full text: Yes its a noise created by your own brain. Quite distracting from
119 KrisYUL : Hum, if they are having such trouble doing one plane, how are they going to manage 700? Should be fun to watch. Maybe B is just using the bolt shortag
120 Post contains images Stitch : "We learn by doing." - Captain James T. Kirk in The Wrath of Khan. Nothing to that effect appears in evidence, fortunately.
121 Post contains images Khobar : Oh, I can visualize a great many things, but I much prefer to have them in my hands.
122 KrisYUL : It wouldn't be - hence the "cover" bit of my post. And don't start telling me about reporting duties - as long as they have a paper-trail supporting
123 Khobar : Which would then implicate ALCOA in the conspiracy. Okie dokie.
124 Sxf24 : Not many and no.
125 BoomBoom : Oh please--try following your own advice. Please...
126 Post contains links Shenzhen : Quote First flight of The Boeing Co.'s 787 Dreamliner has slipped into October, the Seattle P-I has learned, and that delay will make it even more ch
127 EbbUK : Great. You and I both can. So then it is possible that at least somewhere, sometime, someone or ones visualised a 787, fully fastened, and flying by
128 474218 : I retired in 2002 and for at least 10 years before I retired one of the major priorities of my job was the find the fasteners needed for repairs. Air
129 Burkhard : Blaming a supplier for this delay is poor style. Either they are proud of their product and take full responsability of it, or they don't. In every co
130 WingedMigrator : Rigorous project management can and will plan for (a) the dates of arrival of fasteners (b) if such dates are uncertain, the possible ranges of dates
131 Stitch : Considering the leaks already coming out of the 787 program, I don't think Boeing management would have any success trying to keep known issues hidde
132 Burkhard : Are there no fasteners used on B737,B777,A320,A350, and Embraer or Bombardier jets? World production of airliners is at hundred per month currently, s
133 Post contains images WingedMigrator : Customers and investors probably won't bolt, no matter how riveting this saga is becoming
134 Post contains images EbbUK : Even what they said they would do is looking like it might not happen. What does it say about the "leadership" if they can't do what they say the com
135 SSTsomeday : When mentioning "good faith," I was actually speaking to the motivation of the threat starter, not of Boeing.
136 BoomBoom : There are no fasteners used on the A350 yet.
137 XT6Wagon : Yes they screwed up when their ordered parts did not arrived at the contracted time in the contracted amounts. Damn, they suck. When you have somethi
138 M27 : It looks to me like you and a lot of other Airbus fanboys do!
139 Post contains images Astuteman : That's exactly what I meant, as described (superbly) below Should have asked you to explain at the start. I'd add in-between d) and e) the activity "
140 WingedMigrator : None of this matters... it's not about dictating a schedule in the face of uncertainty, but about predicting the schedule through suitable planning,
141 Nudelhirsch : Whoever screwed up, be it Alcoa, be it Boeing, when all is said and done, the fault still lies with Boeing's Supply Chain Management. I have worked lo
142 Post contains images Astuteman : In this case, the "mitigating actions", though possible, have a very low probability of success. Therefore your investigation might conclude that the
143 KrisYUL : Maybe the bolt saga is true; however, likewise, maybe it just happened to come at the right time to be used as cover for more serious problems with th
144 Joni : This wasn't quite my point. The point was that as Boeing was (indeed) proud of the extensive supplier network built for the B787, they shouldn't "out
145 Stitch : This statements, and all the statements made just like it, make no sense. In essence, you are saying that Boeing's supply chain management knows how
146 USAF336TFS : They aren't, at least that's what I and other's here, read from the comments. There are those (Mostly seemingly 787 detractors) that are putting thei
147 Post contains links BoomBoom : Maybe your should try reading the article. Alcoa has already implicated themselves: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2007/09/11/AR2007091101
148 KrisYUL : " target=_blank>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn....html You completely missed my point.
149 Post contains images Stitch : They haven't, but then being local to Boeing, I likely have access to more news reports about them (though folks seem to be pretty good about posting
150 Tdscanuck : Yes, it is. But Boeing didn't do that. This has been noted several times in this thread but bears repeating...*Boeing* did not blame Alcoa. The word
151 Astuteman : To be fair to WM, he said this:- So I know for certain neither WM or myself are automatically assuming "incompetence". Far from it. I certainly don't
152 Post contains images Khobar : Boeing has said there is a problem, they've defined the problem, and they are working to resolve the problem. I don't know what more can be asked of
153 Stitch : That's one thing I don't like about having to quote someone to make a point, because often it comes across as I'm specifically calling someone out wh
154 Osiris30 : Point of order here.. you sandwich isn't going to be to you late.. it's just not hitting the cheese station until 5 minutes later than it should have
155 Iwok : Very astute of you. At the end of the day, Boeing programme management takes the hit. There may be guilty parties on the supplier front, but at the e
156 BoomBoom : Boeing must try to adhere to the original schedule as much as possible. What about the suppliers who aren't behind schedule, but are ready to go? Wha
157 Beaucaire : I might sound innocent but why on earth don't they produce those dam fasteners themselves ,considering them a "strategic" product? Can't be that tough
158 Stitch : The expense of producing a machine shop capable of producing the fasteners would be orders of magnitude more then buying them from Alcoa and other su
159 DAYflyer : Thanks for the explination, Tom. I sincerely appreciate it. Looks like quite the qaundry at the moment.
160 JoeCanuck : You can't exactly go to walmart and pick up the Ronco Fastener-O-Matic(tm) and start making rivets for a certified aircraft. The certification proces
161 Tdscanuck : The payback for any major supplier on the 787 is on the order of a decade, maybe more. A slide of weeks/months makes effectively zero difference to t
162 Pygmalion : " target=_blank>http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/busine....html This quote is from August 9th... before the Boeing disclosure of two main issues... trave
163 Stitch : It also shows that the press - even the local press whom some feel "coddle" Boeing - is perfectly capable of finding things Boeing is at the time try
164 Post contains images Astuteman : That's news to me....... Monte-Carlo isn't quite as straightforward as that......... And proudly, too, in terms of rescuing an out-of-control project
165 BoomBoom : Try building a house and have it sit unfinished for a few months while you continue to pay interest on the construction loan. Then see what that does
166 Post contains images Flysherwood : You mean unlike that other great airliner maker that is 2 years late on one frame and on its third iteration of another frame? I still have not read
167 Ikramerica : Your are absolutely right. I mean, that'll teach Boeing for sourcing fasteners from fly-by-nite companies like ALCOA next time. Honestly, this is jus
168 Alessandro : Well, at least parts crucial for new products like the B787 could be handy to make yourself.
169 EbbUK : Ok got that! shall we use your line as the opening or closing line to the response to a complaint from an angry customer who hasn't got their planes
170 Post contains links Khobar : "The Royal Navy's latest nuclear submarine has been launched by the Duchess of Cornwall, almost four years behind schedule." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/
171 Post contains links Rwessel : Well, the third photo here shows a machinist at the Quincy Shipyard making a (3000lbs) propeller nut. http://home.comcast.net/~wb1s/quincy_shipyard.h
172 474218 : Aircraft manufactures by there name manufacture aircraft. They don't make the engines, don't make the flight controls servos or actuators, they don't
173 Post contains images Astuteman : " target=_blank>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6...7.stm Good old BBC......
174 PolymerPlane : And then when does it transition to the parts supplier? Isn't that just delaying the inevitable? sure you can have fanfare of first flight, but once
175 Tdscanuck : I think, legally, they still have 100% responsibility because they own the type certificate and production certificate. However, if A or B gets sued,
176 EbbUK : Well you say fault and I agree and disagree. Agree it's not Boeings fault. Disagree that it's the fault of bean counters at ALCOA. Was it not the ver
177 Post contains images WingedMigrator : Thanks for bailing me out Read it again. He argued that rigorous project management would project with high certainty the most likely date when the p
178 Drahnreb : They must certify the software according DO-178B. And this is not done within a few days even weeks. I think for the first flight, the software is ru
179 Carls : So can you tell us why is not affecting other production lines???
180 Carls : I don't think so, if you are not sure of what you can deliver, just don't offer it. Then you can not blame the market, because is your responsibility
181 Khobar : I asked "Exactly how is Boeing going to guarantee that "these WILL be available in THIS schedule" if not by magic wand?" Astuteman replied: "By rigor
182 Tdscanuck : No, he can't, because it *is* affecting other production lines. Fastener shortages are actually screwing up some projects even for the 737-300/400/50
183 Post contains images WingedMigrator : I suppose I'll have to ask Astuteman to join me in conceding, however reluctantly, your point that magic wands don't exist. I'll be off now, to read
184 Post contains images Astuteman : Why would I want to concede that? So, Boeing can't know when they're going to get fasteners, until they arrive, because they don't have a magic wand,
185 Tdscanuck : Well, for starters, they don't know exactly when EIS is going to be. They only pin the first delivery down to the nearest month. That's true even for
186 Post contains links Rheinbote : Looks like the join between sections 47 and 48 to me, made by Vought. Keesje's image shows the left-hand side, the right-hand side is worse. Go for t
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