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FAA To Airlines: Reduce Flights Or Else!  
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6485 posts, RR: 24
Posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 12696 times:

No surprise here, but the first threats are coming from the FAA that airlines must reduce schedules at certain East Coast airports.

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/09/11/airlines.scheduling/

I imagine that next summer will likely be the straw to break the camel's back particlularly at JFK.

114 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCMHSRQ From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 989 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12585 times:

FAA fix the old out of date inadequate ATC system, Can some one find out the number of commercial aircraft in service over the past 6 years or so. Has there been any increase?

FAA is just as bad as the TSA when it comes to the ATC system. Blaming everyone else for their incompetence.

Its' corporate aviation, it's the weather, it's the airlines, it's environmentalists, it's to expensive.
It's everything but the FAA's fault, idiots.



The voice of moderation
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8206 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12549 times:

Ridiculous incompetent FAA.

(Police to urban drivers) CALM DOWN OR WE INSTALL TRAFFIC SIGNALS WITH RED AND GREEN LIGHTS.

(Urban drivers) Noooooooooooooooo!! Evil evil govt!! Never!

(Police) OK, j/k, no traffic lights, RESUME YOUR TRAFFIC JAM


User currently offlinePavlovsDog From Norway, joined Sep 2005, 656 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12549 times:

How are ATC services priced in the US? Do Cessna's pay the same as a 744? Is there congestion pricing?

User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8206 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12510 times:

Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 3):
Is there congestion pricing?

No, but there should be (through monthly, or biyearly slot rental fees).

It's as if it's a miracle that FRA or NRT or LHR can function at all. Imagine... gee... oh yeah, slots.  Smile

It is the government's job to police the public order. The airspace has become disorderly. In a multiplayer competition, the public resource cannot survive. It is imperative for the govt to step in. Otherwise, what you get is a destroyed resource. Individual players don't give a rip... instead, you must adjust the rules so the game functions harmoniously.

Same thing with environmental protection. If people could destroy the earth tomorrow for a few dollars, they will do it. Stopping them is an important function of govt. For example, PCBs were banned by govt. Catalytic converters were opposed by automakers until the govt required them. These were positive steps that ultimately helped industry and the populace. Congestion pricing is just another resource protection scheme that allows the govt to make perfect use of scarce resources. Yes, some resources are scarce. Including some airspace.


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5320 posts, RR: 30
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12437 times:

Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 3):

Sweet Jayzuz...not this again. How many Cessna's or Pipers or Mooneys or Bonanzas land at JFK or EWR, or any of the congested airports in the northeast...?

Even the FAA is finally getting it right; there are too many airliners flying in and out of too few major airports. It has very little to do with airspace. The airlines are looking everywhere except at themselves.



What the...?
User currently offlineAirTranTUS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12437 times:

Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 3):
Do Cessna's pay the same as a 744?

Cessna's don't pay. Their fees are included with the price of fuel. One of the many great things about flying in America, IMO.


User currently offlineIaddca From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 286 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12403 times:

You know we're f-cked when the FAA is resorting to empty threats.

User currently offlinePavlovsDog From Norway, joined Sep 2005, 656 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12371 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 5):
Sweet Jayzuz...not this again. How many Cessna's or Pipers or Mooneys or Bonanzas land at JFK or EWR, or any of the congested airports in the northeast...?

Even the FAA is finally getting it right; there are too many airliners flying in and out of too few major airports. It has very little to do with airspace. The airlines are looking everywhere except at themselves.

If I knew the answers to these questions I wouldn't have asked.

The article indicated that the problem is not just on the ground but in the skyways.

So tell me, how many Cessna's or Pipers or Mooneys or Bonanzas land at JFK or EWR, or any of the congested airports in the northeast...? You seem to think it's very few. I myself have no idea.

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 6):
Cessna's don't pay. Their fees are included with the price of fuel. One of the many great things about flying in America, IMO.

That seems like a nice ideal and I'm sure it works fine at most times in most of the country. Does it work though in congested airspace? It seems like a regressive system for an aircraft taking up more time in the same airspace and moving less passengers or cargo (if any at all) to get a free ride if it is holding thousands of people on the tarmac.


User currently offlineDTWAGENT From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12340 times:

Something has to be done with LGA and JFK and EWR. These airports are always having delays. PHL is also have this problem. Can't the airlines spread out their flights thru out the day and not all having them come into and out of the above airports at the same time. I believe ORD did this and that has help delays alot. Instead of 400 flight leaving between 6:00pm and 9:00pm, why not spread these departures out over the whole day?

Just a suggustion. Seem like their should be some way the airlines can work together in these cities to help cut the delays.

Chuck


User currently offlineSkyyMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12340 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Thread starter):
No surprise here, but the first threats are coming from the FAA that airlines must reduce schedules at certain East Coast airports.

Yeah, such a shocker! The questions are, do they have the cajones to back up this statement? Will airlines voluntarily reduce flights, especially if airline X complies and airline Z doesn't?

Quoting CMHSRQ (Reply 1):
FAA is just as bad as the TSA when it comes to the ATC system. Blaming everyone else for their incompetence.

The entire northeast corridor is one giant FUBAR. I do think blame can be spread equally. I think we all knew this was coming. Like the old saying goes "We're from the government and we're here to help".  banghead 


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6485 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12314 times:

Quoting Iaddca (Reply 7):
You know we're f-cked when the FAA is resorting to empty threats.

I don't think the threats are empty. It's fully within the power of the FAA to restrict flights. Ideally, the airlines go along with it voluntarily (as we saw at ORD), but if not, the FAA can force the issue.

Obviously, the FAA is at fault for part of this mess. They have allowed the ATC system to stagnate for way too long. However, even if we had the best most modern ATC in the world, some airports would still suffer from delays due to overscheduling. In those cases, something else has to be done.


User currently offlineKstatepilot From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 12304 times:

Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 8):
That seems like a nice ideal and I'm sure it works fine at most times in most of the country. Does it work though in congested airspace? It seems like a regressive system for an aircraft taking up more time in the same airspace and moving less passengers or cargo (if any at all) to get a free ride if it is holding thousands of people on the tarmac.

Like someone said, they pay for it in the price of fuel. It isn't a "free ride". They don't use the same ATC as most airliner traffic. They use low center and less congested airports. I really don't see how a C-182 or Piper Cherokee is making airlines life difficult.


User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 23
Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 12296 times:

Quoting CMHSRQ (Reply 1):
Its' corporate aviation, it's the weather, it's the airlines, it's environmentalists, it's to expensive.
It's everything but the FAA's fault, idiots.

I won't totally disagree with your "voice of moderation"  Smile but will ask, please tell me how weather, flight scheduling by airlines, environmental and NIMBY issues are the fault of the idiots?

If aircraft won't fly through a line of thunderstorms (thank goodness) and because of it an entire sector/route/cornerpost is rendered unusable, or the RVR at an airport is 600' for all the runways and 1/3 of the operators are not certified to fly down to CAT IIIB mins, causing delays or diversions, is that the fault of the ATC system? If so, I better turn in my certificate today and retire.

Quoting CMHSRQ (Reply 1):
FAA is just as bad as the TSA when it comes to the ATC system.

I hope not that bad but get the point!

Quoting CMHSRQ (Reply 1):
FAA fix the old out of date inadequate ATC system

Oh for sure but good luck.  bigthumbsup 

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 5):
Even the FAA is finally getting it right; there are too many airliners flying in and out of too few major airports. It has very little to do with airspace

Getting it right isn't how I'd say it! It has quite a bit to do with airspace and adequate runways to support higher airport acceptance rates, then on the ground enough concrete to move aircraft around an airport and ramps without gridlock setting in..



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineApodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4124 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 12264 times:

This article mentions Anti trust imunity, something which is not discussed a lot as it relates to domestic flights. I think its a good idea myself, but only in the airports that have capacity issues at the moment. (BOS, JFK, PHL, LGA, EWR, ORD, and maybe SFO) What has been mentioned is the fact that airlines can't discuss their schedules with each other, so basically everyone competes for the same piece of concrete at the same time, as well as overschedules in some hours. And as I have said before, one thing you can do to help in the short term is schedule only to the IFR arrival rate, and not the VFR arrival rate, which in PHL is 16 more in VFR than IFR (Assuming a west configuration).

And one other thing of note. DCA is also a slot restricted airport like LGA. DCA almost never has delays of any significance save in really bad weather (TStorms or heavy fog). If Slot restrictions are working at DCA, why are they not working at LGA?


User currently onlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4522 posts, RR: 18
Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 12249 times:

I think very restricted slots at a few choice airports would be a good thing. Maybe airlines would use better judgment when planning routes. They may choose to run fewer routes between select cities and run larger jets instead. I don't know that you really need 8+ departures to a single city on a single airline. Nobody is going to cut frequencies on their own. If airline A cuts a few flights then airline B just adds a couple more. The only way to correct this problem is through regulations. The airlines brought this on themselves. I have a problem with the idea of "Oops we've overloaded our schedules. Time to hit up the taxpayers for more money."


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineSkyhigh From Australia, joined Nov 2005, 235 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 12249 times:

I am certainly no expert on this bit from what I have read on other posts, there seems to be a lot of regional flights clogging up the major international gateways.

Going off on a tangent somewhat...

I know that it has been heavily discussed in another post but one way to reduce congestion in the NE corridor would be for the Government to boost the funding towards the rail infrastructure.

Living in Australia I was shocked to see how short the distances are between the major cities in this region. High Speed trains would heavily reduce the number of regional flights.

What are the chances of this happening? Zero probably. If only we lived on an ideal world!

Anyway, sorry to go off topic slightly......


User currently offlineFleet Service From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 622 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 12219 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 11):
Ideally, the airlines go along with it voluntarily (as we saw at ORD), but if not, the FAA can force the issue.

The problem with the voluntary reductions at ORD being that while AA and UA decreased the number of flights,other carriers saw the opportunity to add flights and did so, leaving ORD with basically no improvement in the congestion issue.



Yes, I actually *do* work for an airline,how about you?
User currently offlineLawnDart From United States of America, joined May 2005, 968 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 12219 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 5):
there are too many airliners flying in and out of too few major airports.

But, they're all pretty full of passengers. So...it's those damned passengers' fault for wanting to fly into major metropolitan airports!

I personally think we should bulldoze the houses around JFK and build 4 or 5 new runways...that would reduce congestion in two ways...it increases runway capacity, and it reduces passenger demand because less people live in the surrounding area.  smile 

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 5):
How many Cessna's or Pipers or Mooneys or Bonanzas land at JFK or EWR, or any of the congested airports in the northeast...?

Very few...they all go to corporate airports near the JFKs and EWRs of the world...like Teterboro...and in the process they use the same amount of airspace and ATC services carrying 1 CEO as a 747 carrying 420 passengers does.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 4):
Imagine... gee... oh yeah, slots.

Well, places like LGA and JFK have slots, but then the same government officials who are now threatening (new) restrictions previously allowed regional carriers in to LGA as long as it was to "underserved" destinations, and low-cost carriers in to JFK as long as they provided service to upstate NY.

That made the congestion at those airports worse. But at least now I can fly non-stop from BUF to JFK...


User currently offlineSeeTheWorld From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1325 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 12131 times:

Quoting Apodino (Reply 14):
And one other thing of note. DCA is also a slot restricted airport like LGA. DCA almost never has delays of any significance save in really bad weather (TStorms or heavy fog). If Slot restrictions are working at DCA, why are they not working at LGA?

DCA is underutilized versus LGA, and therefore delays are much less frequent.


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5320 posts, RR: 30
Reply 20, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 12097 times:

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 19):
Very few...they all go to corporate airports near the JFKs and EWRs of the world...like Teterboro...and in the process they use the same amount of airspace and ATC services carrying 1 CEO as a 747 carrying 420 passengers does.

Somewhat true...corporate jets don't require the same spacing as a 747. Airspace isn't the problem. Too many airliners are lining up to use the limited amount of tarmac.

The problem is where the rubber meets the road.



What the...?
User currently offlineLawnDart From United States of America, joined May 2005, 968 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 12042 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 21):
Somewhat true...corporate jets don't require the same spacing as a 747.

Actually, very true....hadn't thought of spacing.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 21):
Airspace isn't the problem.

Well, it is a very big part of the problem...as is ATC equipment and staffing. Listen, I don't care if the aircraft is holding 4 corporate execs, or 550 passengers on an A380, the time I need to devote is the same. The airspace is (esentially) the same enroute or on approach/departure.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 21):
Too many airliners are lining up to use the limited amount of tarmac.

That's why I suggest we bulldoze Brooklyn...

Understand that many of the congested airports are at large metropolitan areas, they are constrained as far as expansion possibilities...and they are in high demand. Even WN is forgoing the ABEs and COSs of the world and heading to PHL and DEN.

Yes, they will be congested, but there are many things that can be done to reduce that congestion...a minute here, a minute there.

1.) force all corporate executives to fly public transportation, and restrict all Pipers and Cessna to airports a minimum of 150nm away from the top 10 airports for commercial traffic.
2.) boot all regional jets out of LGA, EWR, BOS, JFK, PHL, ORD, and ATL
3.) make Jetblue shut down, and restrict DL and AA from adding additional service to JFK.


User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 23
Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 12013 times:

Quoting Kstatepilot (Reply 12):
They don't use the same ATC as most airliner traffic. They use low center and less congested airports. I really don't see how a C-182 or Piper Cherokee is making airlines life difficult.

What airspace do you fly in? How do you think an aircraft climbing or descending to/from high altitude sectors gets to the high altitude sector?

In congested airspace a C182 or P32T is in fact using airspace at times which a jet could be in as well as that jet taking up airspace a C182 could be using.....smaller GA aircraft get punished quite often around busy airports by being held at low altitude for long periods of time to avoid the arrival/departure routes used to/from the major airports, or they are routed out of their intended route of flight to avoid those major airport routes.....faster aircraft are slowed and vectored quite often as well to be sequenced into an airport when following a slower aircraft.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21107 posts, RR: 56
Reply 23, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 12013 times:

Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 8):
It seems like a regressive system for an aircraft taking up more time in the same airspace and moving less passengers or cargo (if any at all) to get a free ride if it is holding thousands of people on the tarmac.

There are a number of deterrents for small planes to avoid large airports. The landing fees and handling fees are far higher than at the smaller outlying airports. There's more congestion - the point of corporate aviation is to avoid having to wait. You will see some corporate planes (99% of them jets) at JFK, LGA and EWR, but the number of planes at those three airports per day combined is probably about half of what Teterboro or White Plains handles in an hour.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21107 posts, RR: 56
Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 11990 times:

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 22):
1.) force all corporate executives to fly public transportation, and restrict all Pipers and Cessna to airports a minimum of 150nm away from the top 10 airports for commercial traffic.
2.) boot all regional jets out of LGA, EWR, BOS, JFK, PHL, ORD, and ATL
3.) make Jetblue shut down, and restrict DL and AA from adding additional service to JFK.

All three of those are, of course, ridiculous solutions that either wouldn't solve the problems or would create more problems than they would solve.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
25 SkyyMaster : Yes, it would be nice. The US can barely support Amtrak (actually they can't without subsidy). There has long been talk of high speed rail here, ala
26 Mir : From what I've heard, Amtrak does turn a profit on the Northeast Corridor. It's just that the rest of the country loses so much money that the compan
27 Post contains images KELPkid : Wonder if we'll see the return of 747 transcons with twice a day frequencies
28 DAYflyer : I wsa just going to ask the same thing. Bigger planes with fewer frequencies...
29 MSYtristar : An airline could do 4x B744 or something similar and still offer decent departure times for business travellers... JFK-LAX 8:00a 12:00p 5:00p 7:45p L
30 Post contains images Bennett123 : Better still get A380's.
31 Aviator27 : What do you know about the FAA Air Route Traffic Control System? It is one of the most up todate system in the world. There is a brand spanking new fl
32 Flighty : I agree with you. Our FAA moves jets very well. And very safely. One thing the FAA does not do, is effectively eliminate traffic jams. That is its jo
33 Flyinryan99 : I agree with you, however I would say they need to add pavement too which they haven't effectively done either. Of course, that has more political im
34 CMHSRQ : Sorry, I think you missed my point or maybe not. The FAA blames all the problems on everyone else but themselves. They have no ability to adapt to th
35 LawnDart : Checking the Department of Transportation's Air Travel Consumer Report for July, 2007 versus July, 2006 (September issues): FLL Departures '06: 80.3%
36 Commavia : Ah yes, once again the glorious government bureaucracy clusterf*ck that is the FAA foisting the blame for their own idiocy onto the easiest target out
37 Silentbob : That's the best short term solution that I've heard anywhere, the problem is who has to cut their flights at a given airport? Every airport should be
38 LawnDart : Never said it was the best use of slots...in fact, alluded to the fact that it was stupid, twice: Having said that, those aircraft are there, and the
39 CygnusChicago : I don't think the problem is the 7x767 departures. It's the MD-80s. ORD, for example is flooded with MD-80s and regional jets. In my opinion, there i
40 GolfBravoRomeo : What percentage of EWR/LGA/JFK departures are routed via LANNA and PARKE intersections? It's really fun in the entire region when thunderstorms are o
41 MaverickM11 : If the airlines reduce flights/delays, the FAA wil NEVER fix the ATC. We'll just keep going from temporary non-fix to temporary non-fix for eternity.
42 SPREE34 : Does need work, and is not the reason for the delays at EWR,JFK,ATL,ORD, etc etc etc. They are over scheduled. No. There should be though, and not fo
43 Post contains images IAHFLYR : I wasn't going to reply but couldn't resist myself! NDB to NDB.....I am afraid not, in the Houston area there are only 3 or 4 left and none of them u
44 Boeing7E7 : It's called slot allcoating (or capacity managing) any airport that is operating at 80% of it's peak operational capability. The problem, the DOT (Re
45 FlyPNS1 : I'll agree that the FAA has its share of problems and is partially to blame for this mess. However, the airlines deserve a lot of the blame. The airl
46 AADC10 : Does anyone think the threat will work? It partially worked at ORD, although several of the smaller airlines exploited the situation. I think there ne
47 Futurecaptain : You're only going to restrict me in my Cessna and Piper? Then I will go fly a Cirrus, Mooney, Diamond, Adam, or some other aircraft into the top area
48 CBERFlyer : IIRC, doesn't DCA have not just slot restrictions (number of daily flights total), but also legal restrictions on the number of hourly arrivals and d
49 Justloveplanes : So people instead of arriving late, don't get there at all due to reduced capacity. When traffic gets to heavy, municipal city governments either: Bu
50 Flighty : Yes. This is a very very big issue. Airlines have the freedom to block those 55 minute flights at 3 hours. Then, even though the airports are hellhol
51 Flighty : It's not reduced capacity. It's just, running within capacity instead of busting higher than that. Right, but they do have red lights and green light
52 CygnusChicago : No, they don't, yours is a straw man: I'm sure if AA builds it's own private airport at, say, Peotone, the FAA will say "go ahead, schedule 40 depart
53 AirTranTUS : Smaller aircraft can be told they are not allowed in more congested airspace and to find another way. I think that is an acceptable price that you ma
54 Post contains links Aviateur : The current congestion mess is not the fault of FAA or ATC shortcomings. It's the fault of airline scheduling practices, period -- specifically, the i
55 VV701 : Now I do not fully understand the British slot system. How, for example does BA get slots to ferry 744s and 772s from LHR to CWL for servicing when LH
56 Aerofan : HA! well I'm certainly looking forward to what will happen in 2008 when open skies goes into effect. I suspect we ain't seen congestion yet![Edited 20
57 Post contains images Tornado82 : Sometimes people need to stop, and think of the ramifications and how bad their idea looks before they go talking about things in which they are seemi
58 XJET : You guys are cracking me up with your ideas of "better regulation". I have seen very few cases of "good regulation". Cut RJs, less MD80 at ORD, 747s e
59 EXAAUADL : No there arent..the problem is an ATC system that was last updated in 1969. What we desperately need in the US is what Canada/UK/ Australia have done
60 XJET : I am usually all about privatizing things, but I don't think this is a good idea. A private company would surely charge the airlines more money, and
61 Flying-Tiger : Great idea - and that was your cheap day trip. Those early-morning and late afternoon / evening banks serve a purpose: to offer travellers the option
62 CygnusChicago : You're right, it is all about the contract. But let's be clear, it's not how much you have, but how you use what you've got. Take the roads example.
63 R2rho : There's an article about the congestion problems in NYC in Aviation Week, July 30th 2007. Basically says that there will be an upcoming airspace redes
64 MSYtristar : What I posted was an example of "if it came down to that". I don't expect UA to do it at the drop of a hat.
65 JoeCanuck : How will a more efficient ATC system clear up the congestion of dozens of airliners trying to takeoff/taxi/land at an airport at the same time? ATC c
66 Post contains images SPREE34 : It's not the airsoace, it's the concrete. You are SO right about it being "not a smart way to run a business." Most of the big carriers have been pro
67 EXAAUADL : The problems on the run way actually have to do with the air as well as due to spacing. A private company with govt oversight would not have allowed
68 AirTranTUS : A better ATC system still won't allow 120 departures out of JFK in an hour. that most certainly is the airlines' fault.
69 Michlis : Not to mention it would boost the wallets of a lot of lawyers challenging an eminent domain action, and the fact that the property is worth more than
70 Iaddca : Penn Station has massive crowds, the Cross Bronx is bumper-to-bumper at 1 am, and sidewalks near Wall St can't handle the number of people trying to w
71 ModernArt : Well of course you say "No", you fly the very jets that for better or worse are a root cause of many of the air traffic issues occuring. The customer
72 Post contains images Mach3 : EXAAUADL Duh? Our ATC system is in many ways still the BEST That is because the GRUNTS the controllers take their jobs very seriously. The fundamental
73 Post contains images LawnDart : I guess I need to clarify something. This: was an (apparently poor) attempt at humor. To blame one source for all the congestion and inherent problems
74 SPREE34 : Who is telling you what to type? ATC system....3rd world. Have you seen what a private company has done to FSS in this country? Do you know what FSS
75 Mach3 : EXAAUADL Part of growing up is the ability to look at a problem, disect it and put it back together again making it work. YOU ARE NOT THERE YET !!!!!!
76 FXRA : If we're going to play blame games, lets point the finger where it truly should be, in the mirror. We as Americans have demanded a more "convenient fo
77 LVHGEL : 2 per year? Completely agree, but the ATC system was good, today is obsolete still runs because of the people in the front line. Rumor has it that th
78 FURUREFA : Fine, they don't land at JFK or EWR but land at TEB. THey're still congesting the NY airspace... Matt
79 EbbUK : Something has to give otherwise the whole argument for the increase in "Point to Point" falls flat on the East Coast, just as the Open Skies agreement
80 DL767captain : What about using larger planes and decreasing frequency, i know airlines don't like that but with the FAA telling them they must it might sound better
81 Post contains images XJET : Yep. You got me there. The schedules and pay are what I want. I love my RJ. Whatever..... Can you not admit that the RJ is a requirement to maintain
82 MPDPilot : I Just want add my two cents. Our delay problem has little if anything to do with the airspace, infact there are some things that could be done that c
83 IAHFLYR : What version of upgrade are you referring to? All enroute facilities are in a schedule for a new host computer, some already in a moratorium for auto
84 FlyPNS1 : While I agree that the controllers do their jobs well, they too have a part in this game. Their union has aggressively worked to ensure that any ATC
85 Post contains images SPREE34 : Not a separate facility. Separate sectors (airspace) and controllers within the facility. The sectorization in the metro areas favors the primary air
86 Post contains images SPREE34 : Some controllers have this point of view. Most do not. I'm sure in any unionized group you will see some of this. The increase in traffic that is com
87 Silentbob : Airlines need the local O&D to make a hub work. A hub with exclusively connecting traffic just isn't profitable for most airlines anymore.
88 FXRA : I doubt they'd have closed that much airspace for a pee break. Its easier for your neighbor o take a scope (or in my world, watch your flights) for 5
89 XJET : So, the controller announcements on the LAX Tower frequency of: "Attention all aircraft departing, it will be a few minutes before we can release any
90 Mir : No, they'd charge them the same amount of money, and make up the difference by cutting service levels to bare minimums. Kind of what the FAA is doing
91 SPREE34 : Never say never. You gotta be kidding me. 1, Harlingen is hardly a major airport, and 2, the whole world has to slow down following BTA out of anywhe
92 LawnDart : The prime reason most people hate hub airports is because the want to fly nonstop. Most hubs failed because they were small(ish), and had to rely on
93 SPREE34 : Not in my experience. An exception I can think of is Seattle, but it's the finals not the SIDs/STARS. I think in a south flow Boeing Field and SeaTac
94 Mach3 : Please read my last post in :FAA What will it take" It SUMS my feeling up! What should happen is there be and OverSight Board made up of industry and
95 Post contains images Iahflyr : Respectfully I don't think you have it correct......I know for a fact most controllers as SPREE has indicated are not close to thinking in this fashi
96 CygnusChicago : It's not the RJs between EWR and OMA that are the problem. It's the RJs between LGA and ORD that are the problem.
97 Ckfred : There is plenty of blame to go around. First, the FAA hasn't kept up with technology, and the common belief is that going from ground-based radar and
98 Post contains images RiddlePilot215 : This banter the FAA always gives to the airlines reminds me a lot of Albert & Costello's "Who's on first?" (Idk, THIRD BASE!) One thing you have to re
99 Mach3 : Here is a good question!!!!! Do you think that with all the money spent by the FAA in failed programs and over budget programs, there is graft going o
100 TXKF2010 : Theres 24 hours in day...why not use them?
101 Wdleiser : Isnt a lot of the problems with the fact that many airlines have stopped using large turbo props that used shorter runways? The CRJ's and ERJ's have t
102 XJET : 1.) I agree. I was just illustrating the point that airlines aren't always put ahead of business jet or GA aircraft. And 2.) Yeah we climb slow. That
103 JoeCanuck : You're kidding, right...? Remember, if the ATC system is privatized, the whole thing will go to just one company. Name one instance of a monopoly in
104 FlyPNS1 : You are correct that at this point there is a reduction in jobs caused largely by heavy retirements/turnover. However, think back over the past 20 ye
105 JoeCanuck : What is more likely to crash and need a reboot...a computer or a controller...?
106 SPREE34 : September 12, 2007 USA TODAY "Departing FAA chief comes under fire; Ethics issues raised over new job" By: Alan Levin The nation's top aviation regul
107 SkyyMaster : I'm not arguing against your position one way or another, but quoting USA Today on airliners.net is not exactly going to help your argument. McPaper
108 SPREE34 : I didn't take a position to be agreed with or argued against. Just thought that might answer the mans question.
109 IAHFLYR : Okay, I will trust you but, you then trust me when I say I have sat in far more of those meetings than you and after one passes through the posturing
110 Ckfred : Who is flying RJs between LGA and ORD? AA flies nothing but MD-80s, and 2 of its 3 JFK-ORD flights are also MD-80s. UA flies nothing but mainline. DL
111 P3Orion : What is your source?
112 Bennett123 : Why stick at 1030, why not 1130. Also Turboprops, as well as being more environmental use shorter runways. This means that they can use smaller airpor
113 CygnusChicago : Well, since I've been on an AA Eagle RJ from ORD to LGA (admittedly back in June of this year), I'd say AA is guilty as charged.
114 Post contains images SPREE34 : NEWS FLASH, there aren't 15,000 today. There has never been 15,000. If you count only the working controllers today, not supervisors, not staff speci
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