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United Possibly Starting Service To Grand Forks  
User currently offlineUndaerospace From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 107 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3867 times:

I just watched a news report on WDAZ in Grand Forks that United is seriously considering adding service to Grand Forks North Dakota. Does any one see this as a reality? Hopefully they come in here and reduce the stranglehold Northwest has on the Greater Grand Forks Community.

41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSNCntry32 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3743 times:

Quoting Undaerospace (Thread starter):
I just watched a news report on WDAZ in Grand Forks that United is seriously considering adding service to Grand Forks North Dakota. Does any one see this as a reality? Hopefully they come in here and reduce the stranglehold Northwest has on the Greater Grand Forks Community.

Oh boy...

This should get ugly if it happens. Maybe NW will send more then a Saab and a CRJ up there if this happens.



Long Live Memphis!
User currently offlineDc-9-10 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 584 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3681 times:

Quoting SNCntry32 (Reply 1):
This should get ugly if it happens. Maybe NW will send more then a Saab and a CRJ up there if this happens.

Why would they?? All United is going to fly is CRJs. If it is true expect fares to be be low for the "honeymoon" period, but go right back up at least to the levels of FAR.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21624 posts, RR: 55
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3605 times:

Will the flights be to ORD and DEN or only one of the two?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineSkyrat From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 173 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3559 times:

I'd put my money on DEN service. UA seems to be adding new service to hubs other than ORD. Smart moves since ORD is pretty much maxed out on flights.


flown:146,a319,a320,717,722,733,735,738,744,752,763,772,crj2,crj7,crj9,dc9,dc10,e135,e145,e170,e175,frj,md80
User currently offlineUNDAEROSPACE From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3558 times:

From what i heard it was just going to be from Denver with two flights aday.

User currently offlineSFO777200LR From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3519 times:

Now they are flipping doing it! I waited 3 years for this service and now they want to start. Damn them.

User currently offlineSNCntry32 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3517 times:

Quoting Dc-9-10 (Reply 2):
Why would they?? All United is going to fly is CRJs. If it is true expect fares to be be low for the "honeymoon" period, but go right back up at least to the levels of FAR.

NW is territorial IMHO.



Long Live Memphis!
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7545 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3515 times:

Haha, you mean like when UA served GFK just as recent as about 6 years ago. Not to mention should be interesting as to where they would park as NW has whole rights to the gates and such, supposidly. Finally, those at OO have heard nothing about it, and what is UA going to offer that NW doesn't already (fares are typically same sometimes cheaper in GFK then FAR now) other then a 2hr CRJ ride to DEN? After just watching the report, I find it comical the guy acts like you have to go "so far east" (hardly). Finally, problem is the CRJ will be filled with some college students as most people here have way too many miles on NW to give them up, UA has tried GFK service before, I don't think it would last long if they came here. Also in talks with Frontier airlines is yet just another joke.

[Edited 2007-09-13 06:06:52]


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7545 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3508 times:

Quoting SNCntry32 (Reply 1):
Maybe NW will send more then a Saab and a CRJ up there if this happens.

Did you forget about the 3 daily DC-9's as well?



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineSNCntry32 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3478 times:

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 9):
Did you forget about the 3 daily DC-9's as well?

Yes.

I did.

HA, sorry. I was relying off of a commuting pilot who made it out to seem that all they send up there is a Saab and the occasional 200.



Long Live Memphis!
User currently offlineN353SK From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 822 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3433 times:

Personally I think GFK is overserved as it is. The GFK "metro" area is what, 60,000 - 70,000 people? Is there any sort of big industry up there that puts butts in seats up there?

I'm not saying UA shouldn't enter the market, but when GFK suddenly has 100 more seats every day that it can't support it won't last long.

Does anybody have any data about NW's loads/yields out of GFK?


User currently offlineUND2011 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 12 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3424 times:

Quoting N353SK (Reply 11):
Personally I think GFK is over served as it is. The GFK "metro" area is what, 60,000 - 70,000 people?

97,000 people. (Way more than I ever would have guessed).

Now, I would welcome UA to GFK gladly. I am sick of the NW monopoly and am tired of paying $500 for flights to SEA.

My question is though, I heard somewhere that there is not enough capacity in the terminal at GFK to handle NW as it currently is. Where would UA get the space to fly into here?



Flown on: A300,A319,A320,A332,BAe146,B727,B737,B747,B757,B767,B777,CRJ200,DC9,DH8,ERJ145,MD80
User currently offlineCslusarc From Canada, joined May 2005, 840 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3387 times:

Isn't the I-29 Corridor in ND, SD and MN one of the fastest growing (percentage wise) areas in the US? The growth is comming from folk leaving small town farms and moving to Greater Grand Forks, Fargo-Morehead and Sioux Falls.

[Note that Winnipeg, MB, Canada is at the top of that Transportation Corridor and it is growing quite slowly.]



--cslusarc from YWG
User currently offlinePhelpsie87 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 498 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 days ago) and read 3362 times:

I am not sure if NW owns the gates in GFK, or leases them, but that will be a factor in recruiting a new airline. I really can't see this happening anytime soon, at least not until the new terminal is built, and we all know how long construction (especially in ND) takes.

I have not heard a peep from anyone, including my boss who was in ORD last week for a meeting herself. I think UA needs to up FAR service before it thinks about entering a market it really has no place for right now. FAR is going to grow like a weed once the new Microsoft campus is fully underway. We have already seen increased loads, having the busiest summer yet. I would like to see several CR7s a day to FAR. We currently get one from DEN and back in the late afternoon, and starting later in Oct., we will see it fly DEN-FAR-ORD. More of those, plus maybe ATL service on DLC, would certainly be enough until this state grows more.

Quoting N353SK (Reply 11):
Personally I think GFK is over served as it is. The GFK "metro" area is what, 60,000 - 70,000 people? Is there any sort of big industry up there that puts butts in seats up there?

I can't think of any companies off the top of my head that would need as many seats as there are. I do agree with you though. I have seen the loads to and from that haven't been that impressive. Of course, this is the airline biz, so that is expected, but sometimes its over kill.


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7545 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (7 years 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3264 times:

Quoting UND2011 (Reply 12):
Now, I would welcome UA to GFK gladly. I am sick of the NW monopoly and am tired of paying $500 for flights to SEA.

And UA coming here is going to change that? Look at FAR, its just as expensive, and lately when searching for flights from either here in GFK or FAR its been the same price or even cheaper to fly in and out of GFK. Some friends from Orlando are coming in February, its $200 CHEAPER to fly to GFK then FAR.

Quoting N353SK (Reply 11):
Does anybody have any data about NW's loads/yields out of GFK?

It's a roller coaster. Sometimes, such as this past summer flights have been sold out all day, then sometimes they are wide open, its an odd market with no real level off in passenger loads, sometimes they will fill all 3 DC-9-50's they send here, recently they sent an A320 which came in, and left completely full, in fact they had to leave some people behind.

IMO if GFK wanted a carrier that would work going south they should have contacted Delta, thus, since just about everyone in GFK has NW worldperks they can earn and redeem on Delta.

Quoting N353SK (Reply 11):
Is there any sort of big industry up there that puts butts in seats up there?

Cirrus Aircraft, Amazon.com, US Bank, UND, UND's soon research center, Alerus Financial, Altru Health Systems, LM Fiberglas, Coca-Cola Dakota's, Rydell Auto Company (Owns a lot of dealerships nationwide). Marvin Windows and Doors. All of which have a large presence in and around the GFK area.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21624 posts, RR: 55
Reply 16, posted (7 years 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3258 times:

Quoting UND2011 (Reply 12):
I heard somewhere that there is not enough capacity in the terminal at GFK to handle NW as it currently is. Where would UA get the space to fly into here?

GFK's terminal is big enough for UA and NW. Whether NW will give up one of the gates is a different matter.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6570 posts, RR: 50
Reply 17, posted (7 years 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3236 times:

Didn't United Express fly MSP-GFK with Beech 1900's for awhile? I seem to remember those flight in the timetables.

User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7545 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (7 years 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3201 times:

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 17):
Didn't United Express fly MSP-GFK with Beech 1900's for awhile? I seem to remember those flight in the timetables.

Yep they sure did when UA had somewhat of a mini hub pursay at MSP, got owned by NW.

There really isn't room for another carrier in a slightly overserved market as it is, and NW certainly isn't going to drop a flight so another carrier can come in.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineStapleton From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 280 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (7 years 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3174 times:

I seem to remember that GFK has an incentive offer for new service. I am sure this will help.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 15):
IMO if GFK wanted a carrier that would work going south they should have contacted Delta, thus, since just about everyone in GFK has NW worldperks they can earn and redeem on Delta.

The problem with SLC is there is very little O/D traffic to SLC from GFK while the O/D to DEN is much larger. United has done well in expanding their DEN operations to smaller markets such as IDA, GTF & FCA. GFK can support an addiitonal airline if they reduce the leakage to FAR which is what this would be expected to do. Besides, competition generally increases the market as well. (Remember, at one time, GFK had 3 mainline carriers with North Central, Northwest and Frontier).

Terminal space (or gate space) for that matter will not be a problem in GFK as they will find a way to make it happen. That's what smaller airports do all the time.

Good luck GFK!

[Edited 2007-09-13 19:20:39]

User currently offlinePhelpsie87 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 498 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (7 years 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3156 times:

Well, now that I think about it...its not like NW uses both gates all the time. Mainly just on the morning flights and the RONs, so it is feasibly possible for a another airline to occupy that unused gate. Even if UA or F9 come to GFK, who are they looking at to ground handle? Would they have to expand the ticket counter? Would UA put OO in, or contract out to 9E? Besides all of those, the obvious question, what times would work the best as far as gate space, pax demand, and reasonable connection times?

User currently offlineStapleton From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 280 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (7 years 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3147 times:

Quoting Phelpsie87 (Reply 20):
the obvious question, what times would work the best

This would be determined by the market planning department at United and if you want a good guess, look at what United does in Fargo and Bismarck and it will give a good indication. I would anticipate an arrival around 11:00 p.m. and then depart the next morning around 6:00 a.m. The second flight would likely either arrive and depart around the noon hour (most likely) or about the 6:00 p.m. hour.


User currently offlineAviatorTJ From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1838 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (7 years 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3069 times:

First of all, this will not happen. At least until the new terminal is up and running. United would be better off upgrading service out of Fargo and/or Winnipeg considering Grand Forks is in the middle of the service area of those two airports.

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
GFK's terminal is big enough for UA and NW. Whether NW will give up one of the gates is a different matter.

GFK's terminal is not big enough for NW. It may have two gates, but when a full DC9 is at one gate, there is not enough room for 125 passengers off that plane, let alone whatever is at the remaining gate.

Pre 2000's, this airport had up to 3 airlines up to 24 flights a day. Since then, it has not operated more than one airline post 9/11. The logistics of an operation are completely different than they were ten years ago. In my opinion, this airport will not see anything until a new terminal is operational. Even then, I still believe Fargo would be a better solution for travelers and competing airlines.

Also, the two gates are owned by the Grand Forks Airport Authority. They were sold off by NW a few years ago.

[Edited 2007-09-13 21:58:17]

User currently offlineStapleton From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 280 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (7 years 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3048 times:

Quoting AviatorTJ (Reply 22):
First of all, this will not happen. At least until the new terminal is up and running.

GFK is not the first airport to have severe congestion. If the airport didn't believe they could handle another airline, why would they offer an incentive to bring in a second. Can you imagine the public backlash if they had gotten Frontier and then they said, sorry, we have an incentive for you but you can't come because we are full. The terminal building will not determine whether UA or F9 or anyone else decides to come to GFK, it will be based upon whether that airline believes there is a market for them.

Quoting AviatorTJ (Reply 22):
Even then, I still believe Fargo would be a better solution for travelers and competing airlines.

I'd bet that most GFK passengers would disagree. If that were true, NW might as well pull out of GFK so that everyone can drive to FAR. Why not let the market decide whether it is good for them or not?


User currently offlineIflyKPDX From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3042 times:

Quoting UND2011 (Reply 12):
Now, I would welcome UA to GFK gladly. I am sick of the NW monopoly and am tired of paying $500 for flights to SEA.

My question is though, I heard somewhere that there is not enough capacity in the terminal at GFK to handle NW as it currently is. Where would UA get the space to fly into here?

God, I so agree with this. 2 roundtrip tix to PDX were 1000$, it's insane.



Airport Management - UND
25 Access-Air : How do you think NW can make up the difference on their high density markets like MSP-ORD or ORD-DTW and so on. They charge sky high fares ot the les
26 Azstar : In 2006, Grand Forks enplaned/deplaned slightly over 180,000 passengers. Fargo enplaned/deplaned almost 610,000 revenue passengers. Both are trending
27 Stapleton : Very marginal market for Delta, but as a market altogether, Fargo is 136th out of the top 200 US markets in revenue produced and had a 17.2% increase
28 AviatorTJ : We're going to be toying with semantics here, but congestion is not what is being experienced at GFK. The airport authority has pipe dreams of gettin
29 Sxf24 : What do you expect with a single daily CRJ? I can't think of any other domestic markets with fewer seats.
30 Azstar : Delta started flying to FAR with 2 daily RJ's, but has reduced to 1 due to lack of demand.
31 SFO777200LR : I thought I heard they brought back the second flight.
32 Post contains images ATCme : However infeasible it is at this time, I would love for United or Frontier to start service to GFK. I'm planning on going to UND starting next year an
33 Stapleton : You are correct in that the load factor is below average. There is also no doubt that if UA or F9 comes in, it will affect NW. That is the point. NW
34 Post contains links Airbusaddict : Hey Grand Forks Aviation Enthusiasts! Talk about more of Fargo Airport, Grand Forks Airport, and Bismarck Airport in the Dakotas Aviation Thread! E. R
35 Burnsie28 : Actually to an extent on the price as NW agreed with GFK to keep fares a certain level that the airport authority thought would be resonable. DLH, MO
36 Stapleton : While the name NW is in CPR, DVL, HLN and FCA, (you might want to add GTF as well) these examples are not mainline like GFK and two of the markets, H
37 Phelpsie87 : Actually, we lost our second SLC flight due to the Fall slowdown. Happened last year too. Now if it was lack of demand, why would they bring it back
38 Burnsie28 : Full flights doesn't mean that it makes money. Especially on a CRJ-200.
39 Iowaman : Hahaha. It's actually the other way around or close to it.
40 DAYflyer : Wouldn't NW be shocked if UA started a 319/320 up there for service.
41 Iowaman : Won't happen. I hate to sound like Mr. Negative, but as stated in previous threads, the markets up there are already overserved with legacy service.
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