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What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?  
User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4012 posts, RR: 2
Posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 8795 times:

In watching the History Channel depiction of Flight 11, it's clear that a cloudless sky led that plane and UA 175 to the Twin Towers. But what if the weather hadn't been as clear as it was? Were all the hijackers prepared so that they could have simply done it the next day...or the day after?

I don't think this event happens as it did with even a smattering of clouds, never mind total 'undercast.' These guys flew by sight.

Chris in NH

64 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaDC9 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 2844 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 8761 times:

From what I recall, they had a way planned to postpone and wait for a clear day. We really dont know for sure if 9/11 was the first day or if it was indeed simply the first clear day after the go-ahead, do we?

I know they claim significance with the date, but that may be after the fact BS....



Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
User currently offlineAirfinair From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 665 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8724 times:

Chris - Very interesting point. With today's weather forcasting, they probably had a good idea of the best day to go about 4-5 days out. I don't recall, but did they buy their tickets at the gate that day or ahead of time? If ahead of time, how far ahead? Is there any way we can find the actual weather conditions for the east coast 3 days before to 3 days after 9/11/2001? That would help, too.

And I agree with DeltaDC9 - the date consperacy is BS. What if there was a hurricane up the east coast that day? Wait a year for the next 9/11 to roll around?



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User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29689 posts, RR: 84
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8714 times:
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Quoting Airfinair (Reply 2):
I don't recall, but did they buy their tickets at the gate that day or ahead of time? If ahead of time, how far ahead?

I am pretty sure they were walk-up customers who paid cash for full F and Y fares.


User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4252 posts, RR: 29
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8583 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
I am pretty sure they were walk-up customers who paid cash for full F and Y fares.

Couldn't they simply have bought full-fare tickets in advance, allowing them to use them when convenient? Given how well-planned out everything was (they did plan down to a very fine level of detail), I would think they did not want to leave anything to chance by walking up on the day of their attack to buy the tickets.



I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 8543 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
paid cash for full F and Y fares.

if you do some research, different hijackers purchased their tickets thru various means, including Credit Cards, and buying them from the Airline ticket counters and so on.



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 8512 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
I am pretty sure they were walk-up customers

Nope... this was planned and the tickets were purchased in advance.



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineBok269 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 2105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 8502 times:

Funny I was wondering the same thing. I am sure they had it planned out. I wonder if things would have turned out for the better had conditions gotten worse mid-flight.


"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12880 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 8451 times:

I would suspect anything except a significant rain storm or a low ceiling could have deferred the date of their acts. That is something they could have figured out the day before, get a refund on their tickets fo 9/11 and bought others to try on the next Tuesday. Don't forget that the conditions on 9/11/01 were exceptional, called 'severe clear' due to the absence of any clouds.
However, if there had been a delay of a week due to the weather, perhaps it would have given enough time for the info on the a-hole who got turned in by the Minnesota flight school to get through the FBI and other authorities and take action to prevent the attacks. Stricter security policies and procedures like banning all knives or sharp tools in flight carryons could have been put into place, maybe the particular people be snitched on and caught, or at least scare them off due to the changes.


User currently offlineDeltaDC9 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 2844 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 8078 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
I am pretty sure they were walk-up customers who paid cash for full F and Y fares.

While not all of them did this, buying tickets with cash is now a big red flag for a reason.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 8):
Don't forget that the conditions on 9/11/01 were exceptional

I remember looking up on the way from the parking lot to the building where I work and thinking how odd the sky was, then as I passed the security desk, they were watching it on the tv. Very seldom is the sky that clear over such a huge area, I was in southern Indiana!



Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4012 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 8038 times:

The sick feeling I got was actually seeing AA 11 departing from Logan on 9/11/01. I worked in Boston at the time and took commuter rail into North Station. I'd often see that 767 lifting off as our train was pulling into the station. Having taken AA 11 several times, years ago when it was a DC-10, I knew what I was seeing as that shiny, metallic 767 lifted off. That was the only AA 767 at that particular time leaving Boston.

User currently offlineSkyyMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7972 times:

Does it really matter if they had advance bookings or walk up tickets? This was not a spur of the moment thing. Had the weather been bad, it would have happened another day. They obviously had the resources to buy tickets whenever they needed them. The date was of no significance. If they really had wanted to cut at the hearts of Americans by tying the attacks to a particular date, it would have happened on July 4th.

User currently offlineBcoz From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7972 times:

Not to minimize anything at all, but it is an interesting paradox in that the severe clear that allowed the hijackers to easily navigate to their targets also, I've heard mentioned many times, absoloutly helped with the safe implementation of ATC Zero following the attacks.

bcoz


User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7867 times:

According to the National Graphic special Road to 911, one of the best documentaries I ve ever seen, the date was picked about 10 days to 2 weeks before. A message was sent from Atta to Spain I believe it said. Two match sticks , a dash and an upside down birthday cake......11-9.


Of course feeble minded muslims who support the 9-11 attacks will say that God make the skies clear so that the myrters could accomplish their mission against the great satan.


User currently offlineHAMAD From United Arab Emirates, joined Apr 2000, 1158 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7823 times:

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 13):
Of course feeble minded muslims who support the 9-11 attacks will say that God make the skies clear so that the myrters could accomplish their mission against the great satan.

ROFL, you know, lots of people would look at this one as offensive maybe, but for me, i just thought it was funny! i hear that often from a lot of my colleagues as an excuze! blame every thing on god. (yes according to someone's beleif, you do ask god's help, but when you dont do any effort and blame your failure on god, is just sick)



PHX - i miss spotting
User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7345 posts, RR: 32
Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7815 times:

The investigations show that Tuesday was specifically picked as the day of the week because of it's traditionally low passenger volume, with Wednesday as a possible alternate.

The hijackers also had plans to just ride the planes to destination if the weather was bad and try again the next week.

It wasn't so much that they might miss the targets - but that the hijackers were not prepared or ready to fly in IMC conditions. They could have very easily have gotten disoriented and fallen out of the sky in IMC. Their 'skill' level made clear weather essential.


User currently offlineAcelanzarote From Spain, joined Nov 2005, 814 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 7743 times:

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 11):
The date was of no significance. If they really had wanted to cut at the hearts of Americans by tying the attacks to a particular date, it would have happened on July 4th.

I agree with you, but would the flight not have been very busy on 4th July?

I think perhaps they did not realise what 9-11 meant to most Americans, to them it was
just a date like 11th September



from the Island with sun and great photo's.. Why not visit Lanzarote
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9112 posts, RR: 18
Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 7727 times:

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 13):
Of course feeble minded muslims who support the 9-11 attacks will say that God make the skies clear so that the myrters could accomplish their mission against the great satan.

According to them, I am going to hell... along with 300 million other people.

Seriously, these idiots have to be among the STUPIDEST people ALIVE!!! "hey, I am going to strap dynamite to myself, run around like a moron through a crowded marketplace, and take innocent lives with me, because I am a good boy! - hahahahaha"

And WE are the "bad guys"???
 vomit  vomit  vomit  vomit  vomit  vomit  vomit  vomit  vomit  vomit 



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineAcelanzarote From Spain, joined Nov 2005, 814 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 7683 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 17):
Seriously, these idiots have to be among the STUPIDEST people ALIVE!!! "hey, I am going to strap dynamite to myself, run around like a moron through a crowded marketplace, and take innocent lives with me, because I am a good boy! - hahahahaha"

Think its call 'brainwashing' mind you could argue you need a brain first to be brainwashed......!



from the Island with sun and great photo's.. Why not visit Lanzarote
User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3186 posts, RR: 26
Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 7676 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 17):
And WE are the "bad guys"???

Note: Prior to making this point a disclaimer is necessary lest I get flamed into oblivion; I in no way, shape, or form support terrorist activities or the killing/torture/intentional injury of civilians, non-combatant members of the military or governments of any race/country/creed. Now with that said;

We all share a little blame for the state of the world today, the 'good guys' and the 'bad guys'. Certain conditions must exist in the first place for people to be uneducated/depressed/repressed enough to kill themselves and others. Humans are by nature very into NOT dieing, so something has to be waaaay out of whack to make people wanna blow themselves up (I'm not talking about 1 or 2 whack jobs here). We (the 'good guys' or 'bad guys' depending on your viewpoint) turned a blind eye to these conditions while they developed, when we had the ability to step in and help change things a LONG time ago.

Simply laying blame soley on one side, or group of people is doing EXACTLY the same thing that 'they' are doing, so bear that in mind  Smile

[stepping off the soap box now]



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2169 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 7614 times:

Quoting Acelanzarote (Reply 16):
I think perhaps they did not realise what 9-11 meant to most Americans,

They were, of course, ignorants according to you! I disagree, I think the attack was initially planned on 9/11 (9-1-1), such as the attacks in Madrid which happened exactly 9-1-1 days after... As evil as they were, they were obviously anything but stupid.

Not a clear day? Well, don't planes have radars and other navigation systems? One must be blind to actually miss a target of the height and size of the WTC... Just use google-earth, you'll find the exact location and coordinates of anything you want in any big city. As easy as it could be.



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 7569 times:

Quoting HAMAD (Reply 14):
ROFL, you know, lots of people would look at this one as offensive maybe, but for me, i just thought it was funny! i hear that often from a lot of my colleagues as an excuze! blame every thing on god. (yes according to someone's beleif, you do ask god's help, but when you dont do any effort and blame your failure on god, is just sick

I understand how some of these people think...

Quoting Acelanzarote (Reply 16):
I agree with you, but would the flight not have been very busy on 4th July?

Except the death toll would have been at most 300, not 3000. WTC, Pentagon would have been closed.


User currently offlineBok269 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 2105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 7545 times:

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 20):
Not a clear day? Well, don't planes have radars and other navigation systems? One must be blind to actually miss a target of the height and size of the WTC... Just use google-earth, you'll find the exact location and coordinates of anything you want in any big city. As easy as it could be.

Sure Aircraft have navigation instruments, but what everyone is saying is that the terrorists weren't good enough pilots to use them. They weren't qualified in IFR procedures. Using a GPS in a plane is not as simple as in a car. Sure they knew where it was, doesnt mean they could have gotten there.



"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 7525 times:

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 19):
We all share a little blame for the state of the world today, the 'good guys' and the 'bad guys'. Certain conditions must exist in the first place for people to be uneducated/depressed/repressed enough to kill themselves and others.

I hope youre not using the tired old Cherrie Blair excuse for terrorism: Poverty and lack of education. If you study Islamic Extremism youll find that it is those who are wealthy, educated and have had contact with the west who are the most extreme...not some poor bedouin living in a tent with no possessions. The root of Al Qaeda go to an Eqyptian named Sydd Qtub, a man who studied at the university of Colorado in 1949. Al Qaeda's #2 man Alman Al Zyhirir speaks almost perfect english and is a medical doctor. Mohammed Atta was a Master's in City Planning, Ziad Jirah lived a educated secular lifestyle, even living with his turkish girlfriend.


If poverty were the reason, we would see Haitians blowing themselves up in Miami

People attracted to the poverty as a root of terrorism because it means:
1. The solution is an easy fix
2. We dont need to use violence or the military but the peace corps.
3. We are not in an idealogical life and death struggle


User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7345 posts, RR: 32
Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 7487 times:

Quoting (Reply 22):
? One must be blind to actually miss a target of the height and size of the WTC

The second plane came very close to missing the WTC. The towers were relatively small - only 208 feet wide.

This is just my guess - but I suspect that the terrorist thought flying faster would do more damage. They were going very fast for trying to hit a stationary target.

Or they might not have been good at getting an aircraft that big slowed down and stable.

They had never flown large aircraft.

It would be like a 15 year old student driver getting into an 18-wheeler and trying to go through a toll booth at 120 mph.

[Edited 2007-09-13 18:37:32]

[Edited 2007-09-13 18:38:33]

25 Osiris30 : Yes the tired old excuse that people who are happy with their life don't actually go off and kill themselves and others regularly. Silly me for apply
26 EXAAUADL : Like most of your other points, Ill just comment on this one...it is untrue. Revolution traditionally has been led by those from the upper classes, a
27 EXAAUADL : Dont think Islamic Extremism and Jihad have anything to do with class struggle in the marxist sense, they dont.
28 LHStarAlliance : it would have been 9/12 , 9/13 , 9/14 etc.
29 Post contains links PHLBOS : Af ew years back while watching a weather forcast on Sept. 11 (IIRC 2003); one forcaster reminded people that had Hurricane Erin (which occurred in 20
30 Bok269 : As previous posters have said, the hijackers of 9/11 were well educated. A suicide bombing may not take much to plan, but a well orchestrated plot li
31 Soon7x7 : Some of the most stable and predictable weather in the New York area is end of August and beginning of September.You can pretty much count on a foreca
32 OHLHD : Than they had tried it another day. There is much more behind than Good Guy - Bad Guy. Given the fact in which poor conditions those suicide bombers g
33 OHLHD : Than they had tried it another day. There is much more behind than Good Guy - Bad Guy. Given the fact in which poor conditions those suicide bombers g
34 Bok269 : What everyone has been saying is that this wasn't the case with the 9/11 hijackers. It may be that way with "normal" suicide bombers, but 9/11 was no
35 Post contains images OHLHD : Fully agree. Maybe I should have pointed that out.
36 Pohakuloa : Agreed to a certain extent. But like all religions, different factions have different takes on what the same words mean (i've read it all). i do thin
37 LAXspotter : Who are these idiots you are referring to? the average muslim or the extremist?
38 AAden : speaking of which, does anyone know how the terrorists managed to find there way back to the trade centers? without the use of the aircrafts navagati
39 Post contains links Bok269 : I think it was pretty much VFR. They may have had some knowledge, but it was probably very rudimentary (ie, not enough to aim at a target in little v
40 ChrisNH : It was noted that they (both 11 and 175) banged a left near Albany and just followed the Hudson River. I think Flight 175 might have had some awkward
41 Ssides : I have read that United 93 was delayed for about 45 minutes on the ground after leaving the gate. Had it taken off on schedule, the heroic passengers
42 Bok269 : That makes sense, as I remember reading about at least one of the hijackers (Atta?) doing a practice solo flight up the hudson river.
43 Post contains links PHLBOS : That was only true for AA 11. According to the 9/11 Commision Report (see page 32 on below-link) as well as nearly every magazine article published w
44 Steeler83 : The extremists. People have come forward and stated that it is against the Koran to commit some of those silly tactics that the extremists commit...
45 Ayqzbr : The answers to the question as initially posed - was the exceptionally clear day a major factor - seems to be all speculation - does anyone know if th
46 RobertS975 : It was a perfectly clear day that Tuesday morning, yet the Red Sox-Yankee game scheduled for the evening of September 10th at Yankee Stadium was raine
47 ChrisNH : I live and work in the Nashua, NH area. Many of the westbound departures out of Logan come up over here, perhaps (I guess) to stay out of the way of i
48 TrijetsRMissed : One thing I've wondered about 9/11 is, what if the attacks had occurred 5-10 years earlier when bigger widebodies were flying? The full load of fuel o
49 RobertS975 : Your observations are perfectly correct... the SID (standard instrument departure) on flights out of Logan for western destinations (even BUF, CLE an
50 DeltaDC9 : True, but it was an amazingly clear day all over the entire eastern half of the nation. In Indiana, we could see 30 or more miles in any direction fo
51 Mika : Those who would be offended by that are those who support terrorism and do believe that what they do is god's will. Peaceful muslims shouldnt be offe
52 LTBEWR : I doubt they would have chosen to use a 747/DC-10/L-1011 for such a terror act. That would have required more hijackers on each flight, there would h
53 Post contains links Ogre727 : Guys, I opened a new topic regarding the following, but it got deleted very unexpectedly. I just said in it that I really do not favor all conspiracy
54 Bok269 : From what I have read and heard, UA93 hit the ground after inverting at cruise speed. The aircraft was at incredibly high speed and was subjected to f
55 Ogre727 : You know what? that makes sense to me. I guess I was a little suprised because I had never seen this footage before.
56 SEPilot : Only if you know how to do it, which I doubt that the hijackers did. This is quite true. We truly have a professional military, and the caliber of pe
57 KaiGywer : My guess is he's talking about the extremists, as the average muslim is not an idiot and hence don't feel the need to blow themselves up.
58 DeltaDC9 : On that note: Guy goes in an adult store and asks for an inflatable doll. Guy Behind the counter says, "Male or female?" Customer says, "Female." Cou
59 TrijetsRMissed : My point is there was a time, 5-10 years before 9/11, where the routes hijacked were flown by those aircraft. I doubt the terrorists would decide not
60 Post contains links and images Visityyj : Only if you know how to do it, which I doubt that the hijackers did. It hasn't been established how the hijackers navigated, and never will. (Or for
61 Kdm : Ironic that an Irishman should have such a narrow minded view of the Muslim faith. By your same reasoning can we assume that all Irish including you
62 RFields5421 : The investigation found writings and other material from the hijackers that indicated their plan was to not hijack the planes but fly to destination
63 MCIGuy : In Trident D5 We Trust...
64 TrijetsRMissed : I'm not doubting what the radar shows, but the video clearly shows the pilot aiming for the middle of the building at the last possible moment. Of co
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