Jdevora From Spain, joined Aug 2006, 351 posts, RR: 7 Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2116 times:
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 3): I would agree with Stitch's characterization of the Airbus breakdown, although I'd throw the A400M into the mix as well. Although a fantastic plane, that program is a huge money sink right now.
My understanding was that the A400M program was FULLY paid by the initial customers (plus a fair % of benefit ) and EADS got the real benefit from the next customers
HawkerCamm From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2007, 404 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (6 years 3 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2036 times:
I would say
A320 Turns the lights on
A330/A340 Funding development of A350
A380 Will provide additional A350 development money when A350 R&T expenditure is highest in 2010-2013 (tooling).
Power8 Bonus money in years to come.
A400M Bonus money in years to come
Bonus money = +ve EBIT
2006/2007 has no bonus money
2008 a little bonus money
2009 back to normal or airBUST!
N.B. Dont forget development of A330/A340 are pooled. The whole family shares a lot of commonality.
A300/A310 in service support and spares. ANET never accounts for in service support and spares. This is where Boeing currently has a massive advantage over airbus. Also the older the aircraft in service the better for and A and B. Don't forget all those old Maddog and classic B737s and cargo B747. It is the high cost of spares from A and B start drives the aircraft breaker industry!
Airbus has already spent the majority of the development funds necessary for the A380 program. The A300, A320, A330 and A340 programs all did their part in contributing the cash necessary to pay for those expenses.
The monies each A380 sale generates over and above the cost of producing the plane will go back into Airbus' "general" fund, which will be used to both make payments on the RLA amount as well as to fund existing operations and future programs like the A350 and A320RS.
Flysherwood From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1115 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (6 years 3 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1827 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 12): The monies each A380 sale generates over and above the cost of producing the plane will go back into Airbus' "general" fund, which will be used to both make payments on the RLA amount as well as to fund existing operations and future programs like the A350 and A320RS.
I think you have materials, labor and general overhead for each frame to worry about too, don't you?...
Get tired of mentioning this over and over again - but EADS/Airbus themselves are forecasting a negative cash flow on the A380 (i.e. having to spend more on production than they receive in sales revenue, leaving alone any question of recouping any of the development costs) until late in 2010.
By which time they expect to have built and delivered around half the A380s currently on order.
"From an Income Statement perspective, the management estimates that the A380 series production will generate a cumulative programme EBIT* loss of around € 2.8 billion for the years 2006 to 2010, of which approximately € 1.1 billion is anticipated in 2006 and approximately € 0.7 billion in 2007. The A380 programme shall deliver a first positive EBIT* contribution in 2010. The management estimates that the A380 programme contributions will be substantial beyond 2010."
Flysherwood From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1115 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1594 times:
Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 15): Right now, my consulting fees will be like taking candy from a baby with you
You know why I don't pay for consultants? Why the heck would I pay for advice from someone who couldn't make it in the real world? And take a look at the last post from NAV20 for your lesson on Airbus' interpretation of cash flow!
MrComet From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 502 posts, RR: 8 Reply 21, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1548 times:
Here is my guess:
A320 Funds development of A350/operating costs/executive bonuses for Leahy
A330/A340 Funds development of A350 and pays for French and German unions
A380 Funds its own bloated development costs.
French and European no repay loans keep the lights on and fund development
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9746 posts, RR: 37 Reply 22, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1546 times:
Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 20): The A380 cash flow figures at that time included the freighter model, which has since been suspended, improving the cashflow perspective.
That's more than debatable, CygnusChcago. Since when did cancelling orders and paying substantial compensation ot the orderers tend to IMPROVE cash flow? In any case, if the cash flow situation has indeed improved, why haven't EADS/Airbus amended their advice to shareholders, as they are legally bound to do?
Inclined to agree with Flysherwood that you don't understand business. Having cash in hand amounting to E6B. is one thing. But if you spend it (given that EADS did not make a material profit last financial year, and is forecasting that they won't make one this year either) all you'd achieve is a E6B. loss?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
Flysherwood From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1115 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1534 times:
Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 20): NAV20 quotes the Oct 2006 press release. The A380 cash flow figures at that time included the freighter model, which has since been suspended, improving the cashflow perspective.
How does that improve the perspective when you have cancelled orders and returned deposits? Besides, weren't you the one saying that the development money had already been used and so everything coming in is a bonus?
Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 20): Hehe. Whenever I get my profit-sharing from my partnership share, it certainly seems like "real world" money to me
There isn't a consultant in the world that knows what real world money is!!!
SSTsomeday From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 1276 posts, RR: 1 Reply 24, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1518 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 1): A320 - Keeps the lights on and funds the development of the A350
A330/A340 - Funds the development of the A350
A380 - About ready to start funding the development of the A350
The 330 is a great asset and will be for some time.
The 320 shows no signs of stopping. Airbus' cash cow, to be sure.
The 340 I believe is a liability and not a source of serious profit, unless it added profitability to the line it shares with the 330 by keeping things humming. But I doubt it gave a return on it's own development costs.
As to the 380, because of the monumental development costs for this A/C which serves what has been called a niche market, and including the billions of dollars in additional costs related to the delay, I think positive cash flow on this A/C will go to paying for it's R+D plus interest for many years to come. I don't know much about financing, but I don't see how an A/C that has to pay for itself to the tune of 15 billion or more dollars, and is under-ordered, can also be funding the A350 project.
I come in peace
25 Stitch: I expect that, at worse, the A343 is "raw cash" since the costs to produce it would be leveraged a good deal by the costs needed to produce the A332
26 SSTsomeday: You have shown yourself to be very knowledgeable, of course. Are you saying the 340 is as cash positive asset to the 330/340 program? Or that the 330
27 CygnusChicago: That is definitely one of the most illogical statements I have ever read.
28 CygnusChicago: 1) Development of the freighter was not complete = near-term cash savings (longer term pain, if they ever reintroduce it) 2) No late delivery penalti
29 Stitch: The A340 family has sold ~400 frames to the ~800 of the A330, so I see it as an asset to both, to be honest.
30 DeltaDC9: OK, but I dont look at these things in terms of "monopoly money". If I pay 1000 bucks for a car, and sell it for 500, thats 500 in cash flow and 500