Scouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3254 posts, RR: 10 Reply 3, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 8636 times:
Yawn!
Considering this a striaght race is pointless - maybe the article should say something like both A and B have already sold more than a year's production and there's still 3 months to go of the year
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9080 posts, RR: 37 Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 8573 times:
Actually the difference is bigger than that - because Airbus quotes gross figures; that is, without deducting cancellations and also after sometimes double-counting orders (e.g. Finnair's 11 X A350 orders have been counted in both 2006 AND 2007). Boeing's figures are net.
According to Azhobo on Hamlet69's orders thread, the true net figures so far are Boeing 855, Airbus 656. The difference is likely to be even more significant in value terms, since the two firms are pretty well 'even' on numbers of narrow-bodies sold. So virtually the whole of Boeing's lead of around 200 is made up of (more profitable) widebodies.
Mptpa From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 515 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 8573 times:
Your point is well taken... They should split the order comparison as follows:
- Number of frames: narrow body and wide body
- Value of order: narrow and wide body
In the latter case, the value would put Boeing ahead by even more; this would have been the case for the past 2 or 3 years.
Still, if someone considers this a race, then so be it. Deliveries make more sense as a yardstick as they are the one bring in the useful Receivables $/EUR which matters to the bottom and top line, not the orders.
It would be fascinating to see at end of December (25-31 timeframe).
Flysherwood From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1115 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 8465 times:
Quoting Mptpa (Reply 5): Still, if someone considers this a race, then so be it. Deliveries make more sense as a yardstick as they are the one bring in the useful Receivables $/EUR which matters to the bottom and top line, not the orders.
However, this race will make a huge difference in about 5-6 years when the deliveries start for 2005 orders!
BlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1704 posts, RR: 4 Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 8423 times:
My gut is telling me this year is going to be pretty dead even - in terms of narrowbody/widebody and value breakdown for both. This isn't the A350 a.k.a. A330-with-new-engines vs. 787 year. Dubai is comming...
TISTPAA727 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 306 posts, RR: 2 Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8328 times:
Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 3): Considering this a striaght race is pointless - maybe the article should say something like both A and B have already sold more than a year's production and there's still 3 months to go of the year
Exactly. Its amazing how bias the press is and how gullible so many people are to believe what they read in the media. Hell, the fact that George Bush was elected twice shows you how gullible people are.
Either way, this is going to be yet another amazing year for both Airbus and Boeing! I just can't wait to fly on all these new planes
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21029 posts, RR: 60 Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8304 times:
Airbus has a huge backlog of "pending orders" and thus any comparison now is not worth a thing. Airbus announced over a years worth of orders at Paris but hasn't booked a lot of them, and had a lot unbooked from before the show, so nobody will really know anything until January.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
EXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8155 times:
Quoting Mptpa (Reply 5): Your point is well taken... They should split the order comparison as follows:
- Number of frames: narrow body and wide body
- Value of order: narrow and wide body
Value of the order is more important in counting the effects on Profit, GDP and Trade Balances. Number of orders is important for those working at B or A.
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21029 posts, RR: 60 Reply 11, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8104 times:
Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 10): Value of the order is more important in counting the effects on Profit, GDP and Trade Balances. Number of orders is important for those working at B or A.
Number of employees is of main importance to France and Germany...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11708 posts, RR: 52 Reply 12, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 8091 times:
Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 2): Well airbus typically logs like 90% of their orders twice a year:
1) big airshows
2) at the end of the year in a hope to beat Boeing
If DL comes through with their promised 125 X B-787 order at the end of 2007, that will really tip the scales to Boeing, again.
Of course Airbus keeps counting until February of each year............
Moo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3596 posts, RR: 4 Reply 13, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 8025 times:
Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 3):
Considering this a striaght race is pointless - maybe the article should say something like both A and B have already sold more than a year's production and there's still 3 months to go of the year
Precisely, and for those talking about order book values and wide body/narrow body breakdown between Airbus and Boeing consider this :-
2007 is Airbuses best wide body sales year ever - they have sold over 300 wide bodies this year, better than the 275 orders in 1990 and 200 in 2002.
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11708 posts, RR: 52 Reply 15, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 7872 times:
Quoting Moo (Reply 13): 2007 is Airbuses best wide body sales year ever - they have sold over 300 wide bodies this year, better than the 275 orders in 1990 and 200 in 2002.
That is stacked against 407 wide bodies Boeing has sold so far this year.
B-747 = 8
B-767 = 36
B-777 = 101
B-787 = 262
In the narrow body group, Boeing has sold 448 B-737NGs.
Total sales to date for Boeing is 855 airplanes for the first 8.5 months of 2007.
Iwok From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 1106 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 7818 times:
Quoting Mptpa (Thread starter): Reuters reports that Boeing is so far ahead at 841 compared to 713 for Airbus
Expect a flurry of Airbus orders before year end. I think its going to be real close this year with maybe the edge going to Airbus in terms of total frames sold.
RedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4175 posts, RR: 30 Reply 18, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 7789 times:
Quoting Iwok (Reply 17): Expect a flurry of Airbus orders before year end.
While that would be the norm, if BA and/or Emirates orders a bunch of Airbus', as they are expected to, we could see Airbus pull even or ahead of Boeing before the year is out. And since both airlines are shopping widebodies, the value of total orders could also go Airbus' way.
Worldrider From Switzerland, joined Nov 2007, 267 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 7731 times:
Quoting Iwok (Reply 17): Expect a flurry of Airbus orders before year end. I think its going to be real close this year with maybe the edge going to Airbus in terms of total frames sold.
2007 might be year Airbus will finally finish ahead in terms of value and numbers..
you can also add around 80? frames firmed up this week- 23 A340/330 among them - will see soon.
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21029 posts, RR: 60 Reply 20, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 7723 times:
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 18): While that would be the norm, if BA and/or Emirates orders a bunch of Airbus', as they are expected to, we could see Airbus pull even or ahead of Boeing before the year is out. And since both airlines are shopping widebodies, the value of total orders could also go Airbus' way.
But announcing and finalizing aren't the same thing. QF and SQ, both respected bluechip airlines, took a while to firm up what they announced (QF still not firm on the 20 additional 787s they committed to). So who knows if the BA and EK orders will book in 2007 or be a good start to 2008.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
RedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4175 posts, RR: 30 Reply 21, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 7697 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 20): But announcing and finalizing aren't the same thing.
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 20): So who knows if the BA and EK orders will book in 2007 or be a good start to 2008.
Given the publicity-centric nature of Airbus, IMO they will pull all stops to book the orders in '07 if it means it will put them ahead of Boeing in total orders at year end.
Worldrider From Switzerland, joined Nov 2007, 267 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 7688 times:
YES another great year for bith of them!!! good job. a petty they re not more friendlier with each other, tactics yes, feels so nice to be number 1 !?!
Col From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2040 posts, RR: 22 Reply 23, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 7655 times:
If you would have talked about these sorts of order figures for both A and B at the begining of Jan this year, they'd have locked you up. Well done both teams, makes year end very exciting, very much like the Red Sox and Yankees!!!
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11708 posts, RR: 52 Reply 24, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 7573 times:
Quoting Col (Reply 23): makes year end very exciting, very much like the Red Sox and Yankees!!!
26 Azhobo: Total aircraft net orders for the year this week - 9/11/07: Single-aisle: B737=448 , A320=414 Twin-aisle: B767=36, A330=119 Next-gen twin: B787=262, A
27 Azhobo: Personally I think it will end the year around 1100-1200 for Boeing and 800-900 for Airbus. HOBO
28 Ikramerica: But they can't know that until the first thursday of January, 2008. Are you saying they will pull a Y2006 and figure out if they can win in January?
29 Zvezda: Only a fraction of those could be firm orders this year because DL can't get financing for more than a few dozen now. The rest would have to be optio
30 Ikramerica: Or lease commitments which would then lead to lease companies making the purchases, though there would be no rush for those lease companies to do tha
31 SandroZRH: Yeah, they'll sell them the A350 for pay one, get two a.net rumour #32 Seriously, both A and B will try everything to get BA and/or EK on board, it's
32 RedFlyer: There was no disrespect against Airbus intended nor implied in my comment. Airbus, as a matter of course, places a higher value on the publicity gene
33 Zvezda: No leasing company would order so many 787s for DL based on their current finances. Whether bought directly or leased, DL will not be placing firm or
34 Brendows: I agree. ILFC chose the Trent 1000 for 40 of the 74 787s they have on order, I'd guess that some of these are headed for DL.
35 Insiderinfo: Profit is certainly on Boeing's side... with the majority of the shipments being foriegn this year.....just look at the $ vs Euro or other currencies.
37 BoomBoom: http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/...iness/NA-FIN-US-Boeing-Nigeria.php I thought this was supposed to be the year of the A350?
38 Galapagapop: How many more year like this can we continue to have? Each manufacturer is selling enough A/C for 2-3 years for the last 2 years. Eventually the flurr
39 Zvezda: We'll have to see some sort of convergence in annual sales and annual production. Production rates are rising. For example, Boeing will be scaling up
40 WingedMigrator: And canceled once in 2007... so how is that double-counting, again? I agree A's counting methods leave something to be desired, but exact figures can
41 DavidByrne: I read these AvB discussions with a certain wry amusement - and more than a little frustration. Here's a heretical idea: Let's just agree that both A
42 Ikramerica: Well, why did you bother to join a.net then. I mean, you can just stare at a blank screen or up at the sky and come to that conclusion without needin
43 DavidByrne: I guess what I don't understand is the need for there to be a "winner" and a "loser" in people's minds. There's so much energy expended in this "mine
44 NAV20: Explained in detail here (post 149 on) if you're interested, WingedMigrator. Basically Finnair ordered 9 old/new A350s in 2006, and two more in early
45 Abba: It is a little bit like p****** in your pants on a cold day to keep warm! Now - the prize that Boeings products are traded in is US$. So if Boeing is
46 AF2323: They had 0 XWB on order before June... now they have 11, so Airbus booked an order for 11 XWB. In the mean time, they cancelled the order for the old
47 Beech19: How dare you mention the evil skankees! YS baby! YS!! Back on topic... i think no matter how you cut it no one expected after two consecutive record
48 PEET7G: To be honest I didn't even care to read all the posts in this thread... but what I did read thru is the same old die hard fans clashing together in th
49 Insiderinfo: Anybody fancy taking a guess at the final numbers for A + B by family...? let's see who the best guestimators are..!...
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However, this race will make a huge difference in about 5-6 years when the deliveries start for 2005 orders!
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