National757 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 717 posts, RR: 1 Posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2856 times:
Very disappointing to announce the suspension of a route 23 days after the inaugural. This route had potential however given the extended distance, this route needed to have high load factors and a high average fare to remain viable.
Quote:
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Sept. 14, 2007
ALLEGIANT AIR ANNOUNCES END OF SERVICE
FROM GREENVILLE-SPARTANBURG, S.C. TO LAS VEGAS
(Greer, S.C.)-- Allegiant Air announced today it will end its scheduled service between Greenville-Spartanburg, S.C. and Las Vegas, Nev. The carrier's last day of scheduled service to Las Vegas will be Dec. 3, 2007. Customers with reservations Dec. 7 and beyond will be contacted by Allegiant directly to receive a full refund.
Formula 1 Grand Prix Trips: YUL '08, MEL '09, BCN '10, SIN '11, and LGW '12
DeltaAVL From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1893 posts, RR: 7 Reply 1, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2780 times:
Oh, this is terrible news!
I thought this route would be successful, but I guess not this time. Ever think they'll try GSP-LAS again?
"We break, We bend, With hand in hand, When hope is gone, Just hang on." -Guster
Wedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5526 posts, RR: 5 Reply 2, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2742 times:
GSP-LAS is quite a stretch for an MD-80, isn't it?
Delta767 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 238 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2630 times:
Is this an indication of the GSP market's low response to the new route or the economics of offering this long-range service overall? Hoping to see more LAS-East Coast service soon.
National757 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 717 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2596 times:
Perhaps in a few years they will try this route again if Allegiant obtains a more fuel efficient aircraft type.
Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 2): GSP-LAS is quite a stretch for an MD-80, isn't it?
GSP-LAS is (was) currently the longest scheduled MD-80 route in the United States at 1850 Nautical Miles.
Quoting Delta767 (Reply 3): Is this an indication of the GSP market's low response to the new route or the economics of offering this long-range service overall?
A little of both in my opinion. Allegiant hasn't had much success in longer scheduled routes due in part to the economics of operating fuel guzzling MD-80 aircraft. The GSP market needed to sell lots of tickets at higher fares to cover costs and make the route viable long term..both of which did not happen.
Formula 1 Grand Prix Trips: YUL '08, MEL '09, BCN '10, SIN '11, and LGW '12
Steeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 8808 posts, RR: 19 Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2575 times:
Quoting National757 (Reply 4): The GSP market needed to sell lots of tickets at higher fares to cover costs and make the route viable long term..both of which did not happen.
Sheesh... that is some risk to take! Maybe if they were to order 737NGs this might have worked. Those birds don't burn nearly as much fuel, which would allow them to offer the route at lower, more competitive fares. Don't US and WN offer plenty of LAS-East Coast flying though? Although I am not sure if GSP sees such service...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
TOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3220 posts, RR: 4 Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2565 times:
Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 5): Maybe if they were to order 737NGs this might have worked.
The cost of acquiring or the debt service on the new plane would be much more than any fuel savings gained.
They pulled out of TOL-LAS claiming fuel was the driving factor. Why they even considered opening GSP-LAS is beyond me.
Steeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 8808 posts, RR: 19 Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2503 times:
Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 6): They pulled out of TOL-LAS claiming fuel was the driving factor. Why they even considered opening GSP-LAS is beyond me.
Um ok... They dropped TOL service because of the cost of fuel, then the geniuses then thought that perhaps GSP would somehow magically work... Errrr, what were they thinking???
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
STLGph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8977 posts, RR: 27 Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2443 times:
Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 7): Um ok... They dropped TOL service because of the cost of fuel, then the geniuses then thought that perhaps GSP would somehow magically work... Errrr, what were they thinking???
Funny, isn't it? I remember when I brought this up before Allegiant lovers were wanting to hang me out to dry.
Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
Tcttx From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 218 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2432 times:
Quoting National757 (Reply 4): Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 2):
GSP-LAS is quite a stretch for an MD-80, isn't it?
GSP-LAS is (was) currently the longest scheduled MD-80 route in the United States at 1850 Nautical Miles.
In the 80s, AA used to do one r/t IAD-LAX in the MD80.
Dbo861 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 792 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2407 times:
Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 6): The cost of acquiring or the debt service on the new plane would be much more than any fuel savings gained.
I wonder how much longer this argument will work when the price of oil is hovering around the $80/barrel range. Also, Allegiant keeps acquiring these older birds and although they're much cheaper than a brand new 737NG..they aren't getting them for free so they still have a debt load. Therefore you can't use the same argument NW uses (whose DC9s are all paid off) as to why it's cheaper to keep the old, gas guzzling, already paid for planes. Also the MD80s are older planes which will require more maintenance. If you keep adding these factors, eventually it will be economical to get newer planes.
Now you guys are probably going to laugh at me for suggesting this, but could Allegiant be a possible launch customer for the C-series (if it ever gets launched)? They could order 30-40 planes, and since they'd be a launch customer, they would get huge discounts on the deal. Although the C-series will seat somewhat fewer passengers than the MD80s, they could easily adjust their schedules to add frequency in order to get similar number of seats on the routes since most of their routes aren't daily. Also, isn't the C-series supposed to be able to do transcon flights??? It's a possibility...
FATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5667 posts, RR: 17 Reply 11, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2398 times:
Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 7): Um ok... They dropped TOL service because of the cost of fuel, then the geniuses then thought that perhaps GSP would somehow magically work... Errrr, what were they thinking???
Quoting STLGph (Reply 8): Funny, isn't it? I remember when I brought this up before Allegiant lovers were wanting to hang me out to dry.
If you remember we ended up concluding that it was not just fuel costs at Toledo, Allegiant dropped TOL-LAS due to the combination of fuel costs and the competitive situation at TOL and Detroit.
"Unfortunately, due to escalating fuel costs and aggressive competitive conditions, we will end our Las Vegas service," http://www.toledofreepress.com/?id=2592
I don't know what is going on with GSP. I do know that GSP was the 4th highest fare airport in the country during Q1 2007 so Allegiant may have felt they could get a good fare margin there to cover costs.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
STLGph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8977 posts, RR: 27 Reply 12, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2392 times:
FATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5667 posts, RR: 17 Reply 13, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2371 times:
Quoting Dbo861 (Reply 10): I wonder how much longer this argument will work when the price of oil is hovering around the $80/barrel range. Also, Allegiant keeps acquiring these older birds and although they're much cheaper than a brand new 737NG..they aren't getting them for free so they still have a debt load.
There has been rumors before that Allegiant has been looking at a 2nd aircraft type, to start adding it to the fleet in 2008 or 2009.
I'd have to take a look at the financials again but Allegiant is purchasing aircraft for both cash and financing. They have 8 aircraft coming for the next 8 months, 2 are being purchased debt free and the others financed. I think over the last year they have purchased outright many others in their fleet along with taking others on capital leases.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
FATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5667 posts, RR: 17 Reply 14, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2338 times:
Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 11):
the competitive situation at TOL and Detroit.
that was your conclusion. i still say trying to blame Detroit is hogballs.
LOL Hhhmm, thats funny. You accepted the "competitive conditions" statement when G4resagent provided that quote a few months ago, right?
If we look at Detroit to Vegas currently, fares are only around $250 RT on US and Spirit for a weekend trip in October (F/Su).
TOL is only 50 miles from DTW, which means Allegiant would need to be close to that DTW price to compete for TOL passengers. Passengers might pay a few dollars more for convenience at TOL but leisure travellers are price sensititve and will driveaway if they see enough savings.
For $250 fares Allegiant can use its aircraft on shorter routes at lower cost and make more money.
And remember I never said its just because of competition. Its the ability to get the necessary revenue given the costs. If Allegiant doesn't have pricing power because of nearby competition then they are limited on the ability to increase revenue, especially if costs rise.
At GSP I don't know what has happened, I haven't seen the full press release yet. It could be too few passengers booking the route. I've said for years "use it or lose it" when it comes to Allegiant's routes.
They typically are not afraid to say the reason why they end a city. I've seen them bring up fees, lack of bookings, etc., not just fuel cost or competition. And they are not afraid to walk away if a route doesn't look profitable.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
TAN FLYR From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1847 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2283 times:
Quoting Tcttx (Reply 9): In the 80s, AA used to do one r/t IAD-LAX in the MD80.
Are you sure? The longest MD-80 trip I remember from that time frame was BNA-LAX. MAybe an MD80 could make LAX-IAD with the right tailwinds, etc, But I just don't see IAD-LAX as doable unless it went out half full and the tanks filled to the rim.
In the 80's IAD -LAX was a mostly DC-10/ 767 market as I recall.
DeltaAVL From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1893 posts, RR: 7 Reply 17, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2207 times:
Quoting STLGph (Reply 8): Funny, isn't it? I remember when I brought this up before Allegiant lovers were wanting to hang me out to dry.
You're just jealous. Get over yourself.
Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 11): I don't know what is going on with GSP. I do know that GSP was the 4th highest fare airport in the country during Q1 2007 so Allegiant may have felt they could get a good fare margin there to cover costs.
And where did you get this information?
"We break, We bend, With hand in hand, When hope is gone, Just hang on." -Guster
Tcttx From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 218 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2177 times:
Quoting TAN FLYR (Reply 15): n the 80's IAD -LAX was a mostly DC-10/ 767 market as I recall.
Sorry to get off topic, but yes AA's IAD-LAX in ths 80s/90s were mostly DC10 & 767, but there were scheduled MD80 flights also, at least as late '90 according to the 4/1/90 AA system timetable:
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21235 posts, RR: 19 Reply 19, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2145 times:
Was G4 having to leave passengers or bags in GSP? I'd think not, though GSP is decently high, as the runway there is pretty long. But involuntary bumps can rapidly turn a marginal route sour.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
Srbmod From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 16888 posts, RR: 51 Reply 20, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2048 times:
Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 13): There has been rumors before that Allegiant has been looking at a 2nd aircraft type, to start adding it to the fleet in 2008 or 2009.
Start the Airbus/Boeing rumors....
Considering the fact that some airlines have or in the process of retiring/returning to the lessor, 737 Classics and A320 family a/c of a similar (or slightly older) age of the G4 Mad Dog fleet, I'm sure that there are some deals to be had out there.
Allegiant is running into a situation that really puts them at a crossroads as it were. Limiting yourself to a certain fleet type can potentially stifle expansion plans, especially if those plans stretch the range of the fleet. If you're having to restrict loads due to conditions, it makes it more expensive to operate a route.
FATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5667 posts, RR: 17 Reply 21, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2023 times:
It looks to me like this route ending is simply a lack of bookings, not the distance or oil prices.
When Allegiant announced GSP-LAS in June they ran a fare sale of $89 one way.
The announcement press release also said "After the introductory fare period, regular one-way fares on the route start as low as $109 one-way." http://www.allegiantair.com/aaNews20070627a.php
Looking at fares for GSP-LAS today at Allegiant's web site, I see lots of $99 one-ways. They have had to lower fares below what they planned for the regular fare.
Sounds to me like the market didn't develop.
Quoting DeltaAVL (Reply 17): And where did you get this information?
The DOT Consumer Air Fare Report. We can argue that there are problems with the data or methodology but to me it does provide a decent rough guide on fares at various cities. The rankings start on Page 35 in the Q1 2007 report. It pretty much has the airports I'd expect to see as the most expensive. http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/domfares/web071.pdf
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
G4resagent From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 300 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1973 times:
Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 7): Um ok... They dropped TOL service because of the cost of fuel, then the geniuses then thought that perhaps GSP would somehow magically work... Errrr, what were they thinking???
One could argue the same thing for TYS-LAS... but that is working.
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