AF2323 From France, joined Aug 2007, 99 posts, RR: 0 Posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 26164 times:
I wanted to share with you some videos of an Airbus A310 low pass at Portugal Airshow this week end.
I find it pretty impressive, especially when the plane is turning, the wing tip seems VERY close to the ground... what do you think?
The 3 clips are 3 different views of the same moment.
KPDX From United States, joined Dec 2005, 1558 posts, RR: 4 Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 26045 times:
Thats amazing! Amazing in a stupid way though, did they not realize how low they were? I cant think of any other reasons.... That could of hurt other people. Otherwise....SWEET
Mirrodie From United States, joined Apr 2000, 6546 posts, RR: 68 Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 26017 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Wow, really great capture. I never liked the smaller airbuses but over the years have really taken a liking to the a310. Great to see this one perform like an r/c plane!
JRDC930 From United States, joined Jan 2007, 806 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 25988 times:
Quoting KPDX (Reply 2): Thats amazing! Amazing in a stupid way though, did they not realize how low they were? I cant think of any other reasons.... That could of hurt other people. Otherwise....SWEET
They are commercial pilots at an organized Airshow, with a multi-milion dollar aircraft, i think they know what they were doing.
U.S. Legacy carriers,STILL leaders in lowering industry standards...
EarlyNFF From Germany, joined Sep 2007, 139 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 25963 times:
Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 6): They are commercial pilots at an organized Airshow, with a multi-milion dollar aircraft, i think they know what they were doing
FVTu134 From Russia, joined Aug 2005, 138 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 25841 times:
I think if the PIC would have a look at these video's he would probably admit that that was a bit to close. I also do not mind to see airliners doing flypasts at airshows but there is no sense in trying to be the lowest flying in an airliner. Would have been smarter to pull up and then turn. This was just plain reckless... even if it was a veteran flyer... This guy just wasn't thinking
FUTu134
who decided that a Horizon should be HORIZONtal???
JumpJet From United Kingdom (England), joined Feb 2005, 129 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 25654 times:
Looks like another airshow disaster in the making to me! Aren't all the pilots killed in airshows experts in their fields? They are - until they overcook it and unfortunately spread themselves all over the runway! When watching that video, part of me almost expects the aircraft to gently sideslip into the ground, it is a damn great airliner after all, not some overpowered "paraffin budgie" of a fighter..
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 25633 times:
Hi!
The reason for me why expert pilots are killed in airshows is because they push the "envellope" over the limits.....of course they are experts but for some reason do go behind the airplane limit.....in this case that didn't happen because at the end the Airbus A310 came back to LIS, it didn't crash!
Regards
Braby From United Kingdom (England), joined Mar 2007, 93 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 25618 times:
Amazing video's. Not sure i would have liked to have been on the plane though, a little bit to close for comfort!
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 25533 times:
Hi!
That's true, but if we start going that way then I better stay at home and don't fly anymore or don't visit an Air Show!!! Of course all these things can happen always. It like a sentence we have in Portugal - "If my gramma didn't died, she would be alive right now!"
regards
CHRISBA777ER From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 4794 posts, RR: 59 Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 25513 times:
That is incredible. The wingtip looks like it is almost touching, perhaps it was the camera angle making it look lower than it is - maybe the cameraman is on a higher bit of ground. I dont believe TP's chief A310 training skipper would have knowingly done that - doesnt look safe to me but hey, he has the hours on type and will have planned it properly - I dont and nobody here can really point the finger with any authority. Im sure he knew what he was doing, or maybe didnt plan to be quite as low as he was - the long left hand climbing turn looked just as dangerous - dodgy manouver to undertake in a low energy state like that.
CHRISBA777ER From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 4794 posts, RR: 59 Reply 25, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 25459 times:
Quoting EarlyNFF (Reply 20): in this case, a sudden power loss on the lower side engine would probably have ended in a disaster!
Yup - loss of power in either engine would be tremendously bad news.
Quoting KrisYUL (Reply 19): Doesn't it still have some sort of flight envelope protection?
Not that would be of much help in this instance - it doesnt have alpha floor protection like on the A320. One thing is for sure - the GPWS will be going absolutely batshit in the cockpit.
Quoting EarlyNFF (Reply 24): definitely a reason to revoke one´s license immediately
Agreed - but it was a different time back then. Wouldnt and couldnt do it now.
CHRISBA777ER From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 4794 posts, RR: 59 Reply 28, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 25440 times:
Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 28): Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 25):
- the GPWS will be going absolutely batshit in the cockpit.
I thought with gear down the GPWS becomes inactive to prevent it being a distraction when the a/c is actually landing , or have I got it wrong (again)
You are spot on correct yes - didnt think of that.
You're right about that Cathay Pacific PBY-5 Catalina, VH-HDT, that at the time was leased to MATCO ( Macao Air Transport Company ). I should have said that the TAP hijacking was the "first" one with political reasons behind it! By the way the L1049G that was hijacked was CS-TLF.
Regards and thanks
Regardsless of who did this, the demo was planned higher.
Probably nobody at TAP / the airport / authorities is happy with this ICAO AVIATION INCIDENT & the pilot will have to write a report / take responsibility.
BHXFAOTIPYYC From Portugal, joined Jun 2005, 1644 posts, RR: 0 Reply 38, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 24967 times:
I was there and it was a breath-taking moment. The wing tip was about 8 feet off the ground. I was talking to a pilot at the show about it, and he didn't think it was intended to be so low. I have a picture like the top one which I'll try and upload tonight from home.
Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
PHKLM From Netherlands, joined Dec 2005, 1030 posts, RR: 3 Reply 40, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 24810 times:
Quoting CV990 (Reply 42): but I tell you, with the hands this Captain have even in the most turbulent flight I would have I know this guy would handle it great!!!
I tell you, a bird strike at that very moment and the plane is down, maybe even in the mid of spectators.
This is irresponsible no matter how you look at it.
If TAP is a serious company they should fire this pilot immediately. There is no excuse for using expensive company property in such a way (remember this is an airliner, not a stunt plane), let alone the risk that has been imposed to the people on board and people on the ground.
If you're a billionaire with a private A310 in the middle of nowhere, I'd say "go for it" but this pilot could have done A LOT of harm to TAP's reputation.
Tomaeroeng From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 33 posts, RR: 0 Reply 41, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 24795 times:
Quoting PHKLM (Reply 43): I tell you, a bird strike at that very moment and the plane is down, maybe even in the mid of spectators.
This is irresponsible no matter how you look at it.
If TAP is a serious company they should fire this pilot immediately. There is no excuse for using expensive company property in such a way (remember this is an airliner, not a stunt plane), let alone the risk that has been imposed to the people on board and people on the ground.
If you're a billionaire with a private A310 in the middle of nowhere, I'd say "go for it" but this pilot could have done A LOT of harm to TAP's reputation.
You speak from my mind.
In my eyes, this is either very bad form of pilot show-off.... OR it was not intended to be such a low pass.. Small turbulence, birdstrike, or any other unforseeable event and there is NO safety margin whatsoever ... You cannot plan such a maneuvre with the precision of 1-2 m above ground.
Its just bragging in my eyes.."look at me i can fly the A310 like an Extra 300"
JRDC930 From United States, joined Jan 2007, 806 posts, RR: 0 Reply 44, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 24734 times:
AIRSHOW.... AIRSHOW.... there have been plenty of airliners doing stunts similar to this at airshows. Im pretty sure if most of the people here on anet ran an airshow, they wouldn't make a penny; I guess people on anet dont like airshows; GASP! a 10 degree turn horrers!!! we must shut the airshow down. Gasp! a plane going faster than 100KTS!! Shut the show down...
U.S. Legacy carriers,STILL leaders in lowering industry standards...
Tomaeroeng From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 33 posts, RR: 0 Reply 45, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 24650 times:
Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 47): AIRSHOW.... AIRSHOW.... there have been plenty of airliners doing stunts similar to this at airshows. Im pretty sure if most of the people here on anet ran an airshow, they wouldn't make a penny; I guess people on anet dont like airshows; GASP! a 10 degree turn horrers!!! we must shut the airshow down. Gasp! a plane going faster than 100KTS!! Shut the show down... Yeah sure
ive been to the oldtimer airshow at hahnweide a week ago.. there were Spitfires, Me108 and many fast planes.. They did breathtaking shows, flybys at max speed etc.. At any moment I thought the displays were professional, planned, accurate and well flown. The A310 looks unprofessional, much too close to the ground to be safe and simply irresponsible
KrisYUL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 46, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 24614 times:
Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 47): AIRSHOW.... AIRSHOW.... there have been plenty of airliners doing stunts similar to this at airshows. Im pretty sure if most of the people here on anet ran an airshow, they wouldn't make a penny; I guess people on anet dont like airshows; GASP! a 10 degree turn horrers!!! we must shut the airshow down. Gasp! a plane going faster than 100KTS!! Shut the show down... Yeah sure
Yeah, I thought so too when I only looked at the video, but that A310 is reeaally close to the ground. Someone said about 2 meters - that's not safe no matter what.
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 47, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 24607 times:
Hi!
That's what I said before...people talk and talk and talk, TAP is one of the safest airlines in the world with the best pilots....I bet many airlines from the safest countries in the world do worst things in their day-by-day flights carrying passengers and people don't complain anything....and here we have an AirShow, without any passengers, an A310 piloted by the TAP A310 Chief Pilot without any passengers and people say that the guy should be fired...how many times have you been in a plane that could crash because of bad handling from a crew???? Do these airlines fire those pilots after they land???? Why don't you go to YouTube and see some scary landings in....for example Kai Tak....ask the airlines to fire those pilots....they had passengers there!!!!
Regards
Tomaeroeng From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 33 posts, RR: 0 Reply 49, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 24558 times:
Quoting CV990 (Reply 50): and here we have an AirShow, without any passengers, an A310 piloted by the TAP A310 Chief Pilot without any passengers and people say that the guy should be fired...how many times have you been in a plane that could crash because of bad handling from a crew????
sad thing for a chief pilot to put spectators and organizers at such a risk. accidents like the one on teneriffa happend because of the same issue.. the ole seasoned pilot thinking he s unfailable just messing things up to prove his oversized ego. reasonable flying means within saftey limits and not putting people at risk. many many people have died at airshows because of exactly this behaviour
Ogre727 From Switzerland, joined Feb 2005, 385 posts, RR: 1 Reply 50, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 24538 times:
Quoting CV990 (Reply 50):
That's what I said before...people talk and talk and talk, TAP is one of the safest airlines in the world with the best pilots....I bet many airlines from the safest countries in the world do worst things in their day-by-day flights carrying passengers and people don't complain anything....and here we have an AirShow, without any passengers, an A310 piloted by the TAP A310 Chief Pilot without any passengers and people say that the guy should be fired...how many times have you been in a plane that could crash because of bad handling from a crew???? Do these airlines fire those pilots after they land???? Why don't you go to YouTube and see some scary landings in....for example Kai Tak....ask the airlines to fire those pilots....they had passengers there!!!!
Regards
So what are you saying, just because TAP has a good safety record, one of its captains will never make a mistake or bad judgement on an air show? I think that that is what people are discussing about, it has NOTHING to do with TAP's record.
Photolppt From Portugal, joined Jul 2004, 447 posts, RR: 2 Reply 51, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 24508 times:
Hello everyone,
Trust me, it JUST seems that the wingtip is closer to the ground than it really is. I saw the display, and believe me, the wingtip was never bellow 50-30ft off the ground, as the ground descends a bit from camera viewpoint.
It was a really impressive display, much much better to see live, and a trully deserved farewell to the bird that helped TAP recover its financial health and be the nice company that it is today.
A310, you have served TAP well above expectations, and you will be missed!
The Plane's going to Chicago. The Pilot's going to New York. The Passengers are going to Pieces!
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 52, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 24480 times:
Hi!
What I think is that some people here is just making a "lot of noise" with nothing to complain about!!!
Quoting Tomaeroeng (Reply 52): accidents like the one on teneriffa happend because of the same issue
No, you're wrong about that!!! Do you know why? Because in Tenerife the problem was that Capt. Van Zanten because he was the 747 Chief Pilot wanted to do "his way" with a load of passengers...that's is insane!!! It's the same with the accident with the first AF Airbus A320...the pilot wanted to be the "star" having a load of passengers in the plane!!! Here what we have in an empty airplane with a guy that have 4.000 hours and he knows exactly how to handle a light airplane and give a stricking display.
Quoting Ogre727 (Reply 53): Some people have the STRANGEST logic sometimes.
BHXFAOTIPYYC From Portugal, joined Jun 2005, 1644 posts, RR: 0 Reply 53, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 24470 times:
Quoting Jdevora (Reply 51): My understanding is that the FBW was introduced in the A320 and tha the A300/A310 doesn't have it.
You are correct. The pilot I was talking to said the 320 probably wouldn't have been able to do that manouever or the FBW system may not have allowed it.
Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
LOL you keep doing it! Just because he might have made a mistake in an air show does not make him a bad commercial pilot, or TAP unsafe.
You have to admit that based on the videos it is reasonable to at least question if he was reckless or not. Maybe he wasn't, but you can't blame everybody for at least posing the question.
Moreover, questioning the safety flight in the air show does not necessarily translate into people not flying the airline (like you feared/suggested) or not flying with the pilot on a regular flight (like you are suggesting too).
And get the topic "A-310 da TAP em Évora" and you'll see how the display was done.
I was reading the comment from another TP A310 pilot and according to is words this display was all rehearsed in the A310 simulator and they had two flight profiles prepared, the original one ( that was used ) and an alternative one. The wing tip that looks so close to the ground actually it wasn't that low, the view that people had was lower than the actual runway and in the other side of the runway it was also EVEN lower than the opposite one, so there was a good margin to maneuver the A310. But of course people that don't know this airfield may say anything!!! Once again, great display given by a great portuguese TAP pilot!!!
Regards
Remember Cdt. Michel Asseline, senior instructor on the A320 fleet with AF in 1988, with many thousands of hours behind him ... and then he demonstrated an A320 at Habsheim - and we know what happened there. I don't think experience is any protection against doing something stupid. As the saying goes, "skilled pilots are those who don't get themselves into situation where they need to be skilled pilots".
TAP is certainly a very safe airline, but this isn't the kind of thing I would expect from them. The captain, regardless (or indeed, because) his seniority and experience, should be ticked off for this.
As for envelope protection, even on an A330/340 (i.e. a FBW acft), this doesn't protect you against something like this. If a wing hits the ground, it hits the ground; GPWS will give indications, but you can ignore these. In any type, 707 or A380, and anything in between (in terms of technology).
"What are we going to do tonight, Brain?" "Same thing we do every night, Pinky. Try to take over the world".
Mirrodie From United States, joined Apr 2000, 6546 posts, RR: 68 Reply 58, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 24339 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 6): They are commercial pilots at an organized Airshow, with a multi-milion dollar aircraft, i think they know what they were doing....
comercial pilots are not trained to do airshows.
Only a pilot knows if they knew what they were doing.
Also, you never know who's trained and who isnt to do an airshow. That statement is too blanketed.
Quoting Mighluss (Reply 43): Have you seen the fast pass (in the same display, I think) ?
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 59, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 24300 times:
Quoting Kaitak (Reply 56): Remember Cdt. Michel Asseline, senior instructor on the A320 fleet with AF in 1988, with many thousands of hours behind him ... and then he demonstrated an A320 at Habsheim - and we know what happened there. I don't think experience is any protection against doing something stupid. As the saying goes, "skilled pilots are those who don't get themselves into situation where they need to be skilled pilots".
Hi!
That's an interesting point but...you need to mention the following, Captain Asseline was in charge for a brand new airplane that had the new concept of FBW, and he was flying the A320 for the last 3 months...I checked out in the "Air Disaster Volume 3" and I could not find out how many flying hours he in the A320 had but even if we want to make a simple exercise adding 8 hours a day plus 5 days a week plus 12 weeks that would give him around 480 hours in the A320...but I seriously doubt that Captain Asseline had that amount of hours, maybe a third of that, so in this accident what we had was a great background pilot with a brand new experience in a brand new concept airliner.....believe it or not. Regarding Captain Van Zanten 747 Chief Pilot of KLM I checked out "Air Disaster Volume 1" and it's almost the same has Captain Asseline, great background, around 12.000 flying hours, more than 1.500 hours in the 747 but at that time he was "spending most of his working hours instructing in KLM simlulators" - according to the book.
Here we have a line pilot that have 4.000 hours already in a A310, not a brand new airplane like the A330-200 could be...and not flying simulators only...it's good that people can understand that!!!
Regards
NYC777 From United States, joined Jun 2004, 4290 posts, RR: 34 Reply 60, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 24218 times:
Just think another quarter inch to half an inch movement further left on the control column during that turn and you have the makings of a very very bad day.
StrangeLESI From Portugal, joined Feb 2006, 26 posts, RR: 0 Reply 61, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 24187 times:
Fantastic!! Just Fantastic!!!
So many people talking that is a shame, bad for TAPs reputation, wreckless flying.
He is flying a plane that he knows for a long time! He knows what he is doing!
And of course this is not bad for TAP reputation. Normal people understand that this is an airshow! The pilot wont be doing this in comercial flights!! DAHHHH! "On the contraire" this proves that he knows what he is doing everyday, when he takes people to their destinations!
About birdstrikes.. they can happen anywere! And whould be better to happen in a "empty" plane, away from the crouds!!! ( he is away from the stands)
HE is goood!! And makes a lot of people jealous...
Uh... that is way more than 10 degrees... even as a noob (5 hours) and a 15 year old, i can tell you without a doubt that's more like 20-25, maybe 30 degrees of bank.
Maybe it was unsafe, and a little lower than planned but it didn't crash. You're all talking about "What If". What if doesn't matter, it's been and gone, it didn't crash and that's the story.
If homosexuality is a disease, let's all call in queer to work. Sorry, can't work today, still queer.
Cainanuk From United Kingdom (England), joined Apr 2002, 497 posts, RR: 0 Reply 65, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 22293 times:
Quoting CV990 (Reply 15): wanted to pay the best tribute for almost 20 years of service in TAP without an accident.
And he almost gave us one....
Quoting JumpJet (Reply 16): Looks like another airshow disaster in the making to me!
Faro From Egypt, joined Aug 2007, 404 posts, RR: 0 Reply 67, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 22126 times:
Quoting StrangeLESI (Reply 61):
He is flying a plane that he knows for a long time! He knows what he is doing!
No one is disputing that, one simply wonders whether, in doing what he did:
i) he also calculated and deliberately flew a wing-down bank margin for gusts resulting in a 2 meter (max) wingtip clearance;
ii) ditto for birdstrikes and the resulting engine-out yaw/roll; and
iii) ditto for other applicable contingencies such as flight control problems, etc.
If he did calculate and document i)-iii) above in his flight plan, then he did indeed know what he was doing.
OwlEye From Netherlands, joined Feb 2006, 595 posts, RR: 1 Reply 68, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 22045 times:
This movie says enough that he almost miscalculated the situation. Watch how the plane is decending while making the curve to the left, scary!!!!! Lucky escape though!
Sabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2563 posts, RR: 46 Reply 71, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 21500 times:
Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 6): They are commercial pilots at an organized airshow, with a multi-milion dollar aircraft, I think they know what they were doing.
Commercial pilots can not be at the control of an A310 (or in fact any other airliner) unless they'd basically have their own; at an airline you need an ATPL licence to act as PIC on such a plane.
Besides, I wouldn't automatically assume an APTL holder (regardless of his experience on type) to be able to act as demonstration pilot.
I am not going to comment on the skills nor the knowledge of the pilots here: all I will say to it is that at Airbus, you do not take control of a plane on a demonstration flight unless you have done some serious simulator training (including low level recovery procedures). Can't remember I came across any such training in the TAP training manual last time I went trough it.
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 25): One thing is for sure - the GPWS will be going absolutely batshit in the cockpit.
I think you will find quite some Circuit Breakers pulled on that flight deck to avoid just that...
At least I should hope so, because you definitely don't need any additional distractions from actually flying the sequence as good as you can.
Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 27): I thought with gear down the GPWS becomes inactive to prevent it being a distraction when the a/c is actually landing , or have I got it wrong (again)?
Regardless of the configuration of the plane, EGPWS will trigger warnings; in a landing configuration, it will simply make use of an altered envelope however, allowing for closer ground proximity than at gear up...
Having seen the videos, I can assure you that the EGPWS would have given an awfull lot of call outs in case there were no CB's pulled!
Quoting OwlEye (Reply 66): The 'gear down' pass was totally unacceptable; the 'gear up' pass was ok.
In fact, I'd say looking at the passes itself, I'd rather say the 'gear up pass' was something I definitely wouldn't do: high energy, low level, no gear down...
The gear down pass on itself was okay, but the pilot should have recovered from it by a steep climbing turn though; equally spectacular, far more safe! At least that's how we present our planes at Airbus, but hey, who are we to say we know it best, right?
JRDC930 From United States, joined Jan 2007, 806 posts, RR: 0 Reply 75, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 20682 times:
Quoting Ajd1992 (Reply 62): Uh... that is way more than 10 degrees... even as a noob (5 hours) and a 15 year old, i can tell you without a doubt that's more like 20-25, maybe 30 degrees of bank.
Ever heard of sarcasm? I know what the bank is. Re read my post.
U.S. Legacy carriers,STILL leaders in lowering industry standards...
JRDC930 From United States, joined Jan 2007, 806 posts, RR: 0 Reply 76, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 20648 times:
Other nations have their own rules as to what a pilot can and cant do, FAA isnt the only authority in the world. Also this is quite similar to an average go-around pass, which i doubt most people would consider an overly dangerous maneuver (on most conditions). I guarantee TAP gave approval, or we would be hearing about the pilots being fired. Its funny how people here think the pilots were going to do something that would kill them... i guess they are just suicidal.
U.S. Legacy carriers,STILL leaders in lowering industry standards...
Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 71): I am not going to comment on the skills nor the knowledge of the pilots here: all I will say to it is that at Airbus, you do not take control of a plane on a demonstration flight unless you have done some serious simulator training (including low level recovery procedures). Can't remember I came across any such training in the TAP training manual last time I went trough it. cheeky
Well maybe you could tell us when was the last time you went trough it....because the information I have is that this pilot indeed went to do that so we only need to cross-check those dates, and I can maybe ask some fellows in TAP when these procedures changed.
At the end I wished I could have had an invitation to be in that flight....I wouldn't refuse for nothing in this world!!!
Regards
EarlyNFF From Germany, joined Sep 2007, 139 posts, RR: 0 Reply 78, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 20388 times:
Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 76): this is quite similar to an average go-around pass, which i doubt most people would consider an overly dangerous maneuver
Correct. That is what airline pilots train in simulators often enough.When the turn begins, it´s a totally different story. No bank below 300ft, max 15° bank 300-500ft. That would be safe.
What I see in all the different videos, this is NOT safe.
KPDX From United States, joined Dec 2005, 1558 posts, RR: 4 Reply 81, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 20142 times:
Quoting CV990 (Reply 77): reckless, crazy, unconscious etc. etc.?
Regardless of opinion, for many people this way below the comfort level for the their safety (even though it was going the other way) or they may be worried their kids may just see a crash happen. Many things could play into this.
Seafleet From United States, joined Aug 2005, 96 posts, RR: 0 Reply 82, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 19940 times:
I think my heart would have been in my mouth if I had only seen the view of the first two videos but in my opinion the third shows that whilst low there was a clear distance maintained between wingtip and ground.
Now I accept that this reduced the margin of error to about zero if a bird strike had taken out one of the engines at the moment of the turn but no birds to be seen.
All airshows are dangerous and unlike motor racing where many go looking for a crash airshow enthusiasts are looking for some out of the box flying to get their kicks.
Roger
B752fanatic From United States, joined Jul 2003, 918 posts, RR: 6 Reply 83, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 19861 times:
These portugese surely know how to enjoy a good airshow, and the acrobatic pilots that volunteer too!
It runs in their veins the Brazilians also share the same passion, once a comercial Varig flight was diverted in order to participate in an airshow. (Yes with pax!)
"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
Tommy1954 From Portugal, joined Jun 2004, 1 posts, RR: 0 Reply 84, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 19772 times:
It was simply a wonderfull low pass done by very talented and professional pilots, and dedicated to everyone who loves aviation. Great A 310 , GREAT pilots.
Don´t forget what Tex J. did in the presentation of the 707, also great pilot in a great airplane.
Curlyheadboy From Italy, joined Feb 2005, 871 posts, RR: 2 Reply 85, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 19731 times:
Well, it seems ti me that the wingtip was awfully close to the ground, so I'm asking:
1) Don't they have a briefing with all pilots before an airshow discussing the maneuvers to be performed?
2) Could have been that the very experienced pilot didn't intend to perform the turn that low and simply had a mishap that fortunately had the best outcome?
3) Don't you think that they had a debriefing session in which they discussed the event and sorted out the factors leading to what I would call an incident?
4) Don't you think that the pilot himself, due to his great experience, must have been the very first person to admit he found himself in a very dangerous situation?
5) So don't you think that the pilot being an outstanding professional and him making a mistake could go together?
If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
OwlEye From Netherlands, joined Feb 2006, 595 posts, RR: 1 Reply 87, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 19385 times:
Quoting Tommy1954 (Reply 84): It was simply a wonderfull low pass done by very talented and professional pilots, and dedicated to everyone who loves aviation. Great A 310 , GREAT pilots.
Your reply sounds almost patriotic but reading your lines I totally disagree, it was an irresponsable act and to me it's negative publicity for TAP Air Portugal. You simply cannot take such risks on an air show. The pilot just was lucky the plane didn't crash.
The video I advised to watch: http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=ly3Y8SZvK1U shows very clearly that he miscalculated the situation. I'm really wondering what the Airshow Traffic Controlers have thought at the 'moment supreme'. I think, behind the scenes, the TAP crew got a serious warning from the airshow organization but ofcourse we'll never know...
GBan From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 619 posts, RR: 0 Reply 90, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 19016 times:
Quoting CV990 (Reply 42): Cap. C%uFFFDr Brito of TAP was the pilot, he knew what was doing, he knew the limit of the plane...and he gave a great display! Tomorrow when he picks a TAP A310-300 do you think he will do that on take-off from LIS...noop, he will fly normally....but I tell you, with the hands this Captain have even in the most turbulent flight I would have I know this guy would handle it great!!!
Certainly he'd not fly this way on a scheduled flight. Nevertheless the display seems to show a little too much self-confidence.
Quoting CV990 (Reply 50): That's what I said before...people talk and talk and talk, TAP is one of the safest airlines in the world with the best pilots....
In that case I prefer to fly with airlines that do not have the best pilots
I really think at the end of the day being aware of limits and risks is at least as if not more important than "flying skills" for a safe trip in todays modern aircraft.
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 92, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 18916 times:
Quoting GBan (Reply 90): In that case I prefer to fly with airlines that do not have the best pilots Wink
Hi Gban.
I accept your position with no complains..but let me just give an insight on that, I think beside this "spiritual" display when we fly commercially we want to have the best pilots to fly you to anywhere you go, I say this because I want to feel safe and I want to know that the guy "in front" of the plane can handle the airplane even in the worst conditions possible. I had the opportunity to fly in some rough conditions, I remember once landing at LAX in a SWISS MD11, the conditions on landing were terrible, a big thunderstorm was just above LAX, wind, rain, everything was there...in such a way that I landed from the ocean side..something that I've tried before an I guess it's not very usual ( might be though...), our pilot did one of the most dramatic and spectacular landings I've ever had...it was not smooth, but the guy put the MD11 on the ground in such a way that I don't even think it was possible....but I noticed that some people was not happy with that landing at all....maybe because they didn't knew the conditions outside....that guy although did a hard and dramatic landing not very comfortable he was a very, very good pilot I tell you!!!
Regards
Voodoo From Niue, joined Mar 2001, 1845 posts, RR: 0 Reply 93, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 18790 times:
I would rather that the pilot of a plane I was flying on did NOT have such *profound* confidence in his ability and risk taking. I would prefer that he always took the conservative approach and left himself an 'out'. This TAP pilot inspires no such confidence in me as a passenger. He is likely to take a risk where others will not. It is possible to display an aircraft to show skill and ability without the strong possibility of certain death in the event of a minor error. TAP should fire his ass and review their safety culture forthwith. This is nothing but macho b.s. as far as I can see.
Owleye From Netherlands, joined Feb 2006, 595 posts, RR: 1 Reply 94, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 18664 times:
Quoting ENU (Reply 89): This is still the lowest pass of an aircraft ever, I think. Air Zimbabwe, but I don't know where and when.
That Air Zimbabwe was a pretty low one. Remember how the F27 Troopship and the F60 of the RNLAF gave their 'act de presence' at airshows! Beware: straight line only, no dangerous banking like the TAP.
Airportugal From Portugal, joined Nov 1999, 138 posts, RR: 18 Reply 95, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 18404 times:
I was at the Évora Air Show and I was on the other side of the runway. Together with me, were two TAP A310 captains who assured that what we saw was previously trained in the company simulator.
KL1291 From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 47 posts, RR: 0 Reply 98, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 18223 times:
Quoting Kaitak (Reply 56): Remember Cdt. Michel Asseline, senior instructor on the A320 fleet with AF in 1988, with many thousands of hours behind him ... and then he demonstrated an A320 at Habsheim - and we know what happened there. I don't think experience is any protection against doing something stupid. As the saying goes, "skilled pilots are those who don't get themselves into situation where they need to be skilled pilots".
That Habsheim demo was where those new wireless Airbus systems failed. Or not?? So, there is no equal situation comparison possible with the TAP A310 demo then. Michel Asseline and the two other casualties were just most unlucky.
I find this complete TAP demo the most perfect example for what MEN and MACHINE are capable of. Just a perfect fly-by!!! I've seen F1 demo's along unprotected crowds, in which, when you think only pessimistic, everything could had been totally wrong.
I also love all Portuguese members of this forum who are just a little over the top in their reaction.
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 99, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 18206 times:
Quoting KL1291 (Reply 98): I also love all Portuguese members of this forum who are just a little over the top in their reaction.
Hi KL1291!
Thanks for your words....we can get also "a little over the top" regarding soccer
By the way, I also like the way the dutch can be really sincere and sharp!!!
Regards
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 101, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 18168 times:
Hi!
Just for your curiosity, this "bad" A310-300, CS-TEI that did the fantastic display came from CCS, went to Évora, returned to LIS and went that evening to NAT, all very smooth....next time one of us that fly in a A310-300 from TP don't forget to check the registration, you might be flying the Tango Echo India....the wild dog!!!
Regards
B752fanatic From United States, joined Jul 2003, 918 posts, RR: 6 Reply 102, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 18118 times:
I suppose that mastering the approach to FNC runway 05 its a nothing compared to that stunt that the pilot did on that air show.
"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
BestWestern I think I didn't said that...you better quote exactly what I said...otherwise I have to admit that you are misleading the rest of the people here..at least be honest and exact ok???
Quoting BestWestern (Reply 104): Why is it that any ANY criticism of portugal or TAP is jumped upon by portuguese members. over and over again.
That's your words, not mine. Do you like your country? Yes? I like mine too!!! Just that...nothing personal with anybody here in the forum...we are just a small country with a small fleet of airplanes but...we have great pilots.
Regards
Marcelino was lucky not to have been fired... Had he done it in a different airline, he might have been imprisoned, but that's a different matter altogether.
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 25): Yup - loss of power in either engine would be tremendously bad news.
Indeed, loss of an engine during that turn would be an "interesting" outcome.
Quoting CV990 (Reply 47): I bet many airlines from the safest countries in the world do worst things in their day-by-day flights carrying passengers and people don't complain anything....and here we have an AirShow, without any passengers, an A310 piloted by the TAP A310 Chief Pilot without any passengers and people say that the guy should be fired.
The fact that he's the A310 chief pilot is what worries me. Chiefs are less exposed to current flying coz they spend more time on the desk. Chiefs are more likely to loose the plot in an overwhelming situation... Frankly, regardless on whether this was a "calculated risk" or not, having the chief doing it is a bit silly!!!
Quoting CV990 (Reply 47): how many times have you been in a plane that could crash because of bad handling from a crew?
There's a difference between taking acceptable risk and uneccessary risk... This airshow flybys, although impressive, is a c
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so we only need to cross-check those dates, and I can maybe ask some fellows in TAP when these procedures changed.
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