AF2323 From France, joined Aug 2007, 105 posts, RR: 0 Posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 28269 times:
I wanted to share with you some videos of an Airbus A310 low pass at Portugal Airshow this week end.
I find it pretty impressive, especially when the plane is turning, the wing tip seems VERY close to the ground... what do you think?
The 3 clips are 3 different views of the same moment.
KPDX From United States, joined Dec 2005, 1600 posts, RR: 4 Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 28150 times:
Thats amazing! Amazing in a stupid way though, did they not realize how low they were? I cant think of any other reasons.... That could of hurt other people. Otherwise....SWEET
Mirrodie From United States, joined Apr 2000, 6748 posts, RR: 72 Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 28122 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Wow, really great capture. I never liked the smaller airbuses but over the years have really taken a liking to the a310. Great to see this one perform like an r/c plane!
JRDC930 From United States, joined Jan 2007, 901 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 28093 times:
Quoting KPDX (Reply 2): Thats amazing! Amazing in a stupid way though, did they not realize how low they were? I cant think of any other reasons.... That could of hurt other people. Otherwise....SWEET
They are commercial pilots at an organized Airshow, with a multi-milion dollar aircraft, i think they know what they were doing.
U.S. Legacy carriers,STILL leaders in lowering industry standards...
EarlyNFF From Germany, joined Sep 2007, 141 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 28068 times:
Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 6): They are commercial pilots at an organized Airshow, with a multi-milion dollar aircraft, i think they know what they were doing
FVTu134 From Russia, joined Aug 2005, 138 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 27946 times:
I think if the PIC would have a look at these video's he would probably admit that that was a bit to close. I also do not mind to see airliners doing flypasts at airshows but there is no sense in trying to be the lowest flying in an airliner. Would have been smarter to pull up and then turn. This was just plain reckless... even if it was a veteran flyer... This guy just wasn't thinking
FUTu134
who decided that a Horizon should be HORIZONtal???
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 27772 times:
Hi!
The pilot on this great performance flight was Cap. César Brito no less than the TAP Airbus A310 fleet last Chief Pilot...this awesome pilot have 4.000 hours on the A310 and TAP wanted to pay the best tribute for almost 20 years of service in TAP without an accident. The airplane involved was CS-TEI and the co-pilot of that flight was Vitor Pereira. Has you know, from November on TAP will start to receive 5 brand new A330-200 fresh from the factory.
This incredible performance shows the great pilots TAP have during all these years, just to remind you in early 60's the famous Capt. Marcelino passed UNDER Tagus bridge with a Boeing 707!!!
I personally think that Capt. César Brito with this large amount of flying hours on the A310 did knew what he was doing!!!
Regards
JumpJet From United Kingdom (England), joined Feb 2005, 129 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 27759 times:
Looks like another airshow disaster in the making to me! Aren't all the pilots killed in airshows experts in their fields? They are - until they overcook it and unfortunately spread themselves all over the runway! When watching that video, part of me almost expects the aircraft to gently sideslip into the ground, it is a damn great airliner after all, not some overpowered "paraffin budgie" of a fighter..
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 27738 times:
Hi!
The reason for me why expert pilots are killed in airshows is because they push the "envellope" over the limits.....of course they are experts but for some reason do go behind the airplane limit.....in this case that didn't happen because at the end the Airbus A310 came back to LIS, it didn't crash!
Regards
Braby From United Kingdom (England), joined Mar 2007, 104 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 27723 times:
Amazing video's. Not sure i would have liked to have been on the plane though, a little bit to close for comfort!
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 27638 times:
Hi!
That's true, but if we start going that way then I better stay at home and don't fly anymore or don't visit an Air Show!!! Of course all these things can happen always. It like a sentence we have in Portugal - "If my gramma didn't died, she would be alive right now!"
regards
CHRISBA777ER From Singapore, joined Mar 2001, 4929 posts, RR: 62 Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 27618 times:
That is incredible. The wingtip looks like it is almost touching, perhaps it was the camera angle making it look lower than it is - maybe the cameraman is on a higher bit of ground. I dont believe TP's chief A310 training skipper would have knowingly done that - doesnt look safe to me but hey, he has the hours on type and will have planned it properly - I dont and nobody here can really point the finger with any authority. Im sure he knew what he was doing, or maybe didnt plan to be quite as low as he was - the long left hand climbing turn looked just as dangerous - dodgy manouver to undertake in a low energy state like that.
CHRISBA777ER From Singapore, joined Mar 2001, 4929 posts, RR: 62 Reply 25, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 27564 times:
Quoting EarlyNFF (Reply 20): in this case, a sudden power loss on the lower side engine would probably have ended in a disaster!
Yup - loss of power in either engine would be tremendously bad news.
Quoting KrisYUL (Reply 19): Doesn't it still have some sort of flight envelope protection?
Not that would be of much help in this instance - it doesnt have alpha floor protection like on the A320. One thing is for sure - the GPWS will be going absolutely batshit in the cockpit.
Quoting EarlyNFF (Reply 24): definitely a reason to revoke one´s license immediately
Agreed - but it was a different time back then. Wouldnt and couldnt do it now.
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 26, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 27608 times:
Hi Mighluss.
Here's the story, in 1966 when the 25th. of April Tagus Bridge ( at that time Salazar Bridge ) was newly finished Cap. José Marcelino ( the same one that had the "honor" to be involved in the first civil aviation hijacking in 1961 ) had left the command of the Caravelle VI-R and was now in the Boeing 707-300B, in a training flight he did what was unthinkable, pass with the 707 under Tagus Bridge...in Cap. Marcelino own words here's what he said - " It was in a 707 but I was alone, with my crew, there were no passengers on board, I would never do it with passengers! It was a training flight!" - then the elementary question - "Why did you do it?" - Capt. Marcelino sharp answer - " I just wanted...I wanted to know if the plane could pass it! And I wanted to know the capabilities and limits of the airplane. I think the plane could and it did!!!" - Capt. Marcelino stayed in TAP from 1945 until 1978, he flew the C-47, C-54, L1049G, Caravelle VI-R, 707-300B/C, 727-100/200 and he ended in the 747-200 with around 24.000 hours.
A true legend that I had the previlege to meet again in a honor lunch last June, now with 91 years old Capt. Marcelino still loves to talk about aviation, his passion. It's good that these facts happened many years ago, like the "tonneau" pilot "Tex" Johnsson did with the prototype of the 707....if it was now we would have all those "concience" voices saying that "Tex" was crazy and nuts...but he did it!!!
regards
OHLHD From Finland, joined exactly 5 years ago today! , 3879 posts, RR: 29 Reply 29, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 27539 times:
Wow, that is not really. Maybe Capt. César Brito is an ex military pilot
Quoting CV990 (Reply 26): now with 91 years old Capt. Marcelino still loves to talk about aviation, his passion
You're right about that Cathay Pacific PBY-5 Catalina, VH-HDT, that at the time was leased to MATCO ( Macao Air Transport Company ). I should have said that the TAP hijacking was the "first" one with political reasons behind it! By the way the L1049G that was hijacked was CS-TLF.
Regards and thanks
Keesje From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 9903 posts, RR: 52 Reply 33, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 27337 times:
Quoting CV990 (Reply 15): I personally think that Capt. César Brito with this large amount of flying hours on the A310 did knew what he was doing!!!
Regardsless of who did this, the demo was planned higher.
Probably nobody at TAP / the airport / authorities is happy with this ICAO AVIATION INCIDENT & the pilot will have to write a report / take responsibility.
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 35, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 27123 times:
Hi!
Noop, this is for be great flying, great pilot, great airline indeed!!! Either you like it or not! That's what I call I great finale for the Airbus A310-300 in TAP service! I bet no one will forget this great display! And let me tell you something, if tomorrow I had Cap. César Brito flying a plane that I was in...I would CONGRATULATE HIM and wish him a great life flying TAP airplanes!
Regards
BHXFAOTIPYYC From Portugal, joined Jun 2005, 1644 posts, RR: 0 Reply 38, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 27072 times:
I was there and it was a breath-taking moment. The wing tip was about 8 feet off the ground. I was talking to a pilot at the show about it, and he didn't think it was intended to be so low. I have a picture like the top one which I'll try and upload tonight from home.
Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 39, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 27055 times:
Hi!
JoeCatolli buon giorno!!! I'm sorry there's no images of that outstanding flight of Capt. Marcelino...but I tell you, if you talk about that to any portuguese aviation enthusiast they will confirm that!!! Now just to had a bit about this outstanding display I know that some people here have short memory....I read in a old "AIRWAYS" or "AIRLINERS" magazine ( I'm not sure the one....) that one day somewhere in USA a NW ( Northwest Orient ) 707 or 720B came to do a display in a small airfield and it passed SO LOW, SO LOW that it actually flipped light airplanes when it passed!!! I read that the pilot on display asked how low he could pass, and the answer was - "You're are the pilot!!!" - and that's how I see these things....Cap. César Brito of TAP was the pilot, he knew what was doing, he knew the limit of the plane...and he gave a great display! Tomorrow when he picks a TAP A310-300 do you think he will do that on take-off from LIS...noop, he will fly normally....but I tell you, with the hands this Captain have even in the most turbulent flight I would have I know this guy would handle it great!!!
Regards
PHKLM From Netherlands, joined Dec 2005, 1107 posts, RR: 3 Reply 40, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 26915 times:
Quoting CV990 (Reply 42): but I tell you, with the hands this Captain have even in the most turbulent flight I would have I know this guy would handle it great!!!
I tell you, a bird strike at that very moment and the plane is down, maybe even in the mid of spectators.
This is irresponsible no matter how you look at it.
If TAP is a serious company they should fire this pilot immediately. There is no excuse for using expensive company property in such a way (remember this is an airliner, not a stunt plane), let alone the risk that has been imposed to the people on board and people on the ground.
If you're a billionaire with a private A310 in the middle of nowhere, I'd say "go for it" but this pilot could have done A LOT of harm to TAP's reputation.
Tomaeroeng From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 33 posts, RR: 0 Reply 41, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 26900 times:
Quoting PHKLM (Reply 43): I tell you, a bird strike at that very moment and the plane is down, maybe even in the mid of spectators.
This is irresponsible no matter how you look at it.
If TAP is a serious company they should fire this pilot immediately. There is no excuse for using expensive company property in such a way (remember this is an airliner, not a stunt plane), let alone the risk that has been imposed to the people on board and people on the ground.
If you're a billionaire with a private A310 in the middle of nowhere, I'd say "go for it" but this pilot could have done A LOT of harm to TAP's reputation.
You speak from my mind.
In my eyes, this is either very bad form of pilot show-off.... OR it was not intended to be such a low pass.. Small turbulence, birdstrike, or any other unforseeable event and there is NO safety margin whatsoever ... You cannot plan such a maneuvre with the precision of 1-2 m above ground.
Its just bragging in my eyes.."look at me i can fly the A310 like an Extra 300"
JRDC930 From United States, joined Jan 2007, 901 posts, RR: 0 Reply 44, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 26839 times:
AIRSHOW.... AIRSHOW.... there have been plenty of airliners doing stunts similar to this at airshows. Im pretty sure if most of the people here on anet ran an airshow, they wouldn't make a penny; I guess people on anet dont like airshows; GASP! a 10 degree turn horrers!!! we must shut the airshow down. Gasp! a plane going faster than 100KTS!! Shut the show down...
U.S. Legacy carriers,STILL leaders in lowering industry standards...
Tomaeroeng From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 33 posts, RR: 0 Reply 45, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 26755 times:
Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 47): AIRSHOW.... AIRSHOW.... there have been plenty of airliners doing stunts similar to this at airshows. Im pretty sure if most of the people here on anet ran an airshow, they wouldn't make a penny; I guess people on anet dont like airshows; GASP! a 10 degree turn horrers!!! we must shut the airshow down. Gasp! a plane going faster than 100KTS!! Shut the show down... Yeah sure
ive been to the oldtimer airshow at hahnweide a week ago.. there were Spitfires, Me108 and many fast planes.. They did breathtaking shows, flybys at max speed etc.. At any moment I thought the displays were professional, planned, accurate and well flown. The A310 looks unprofessional, much too close to the ground to be safe and simply irresponsible
KrisYUL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 46, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 26719 times:
Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 47): AIRSHOW.... AIRSHOW.... there have been plenty of airliners doing stunts similar to this at airshows. Im pretty sure if most of the people here on anet ran an airshow, they wouldn't make a penny; I guess people on anet dont like airshows; GASP! a 10 degree turn horrers!!! we must shut the airshow down. Gasp! a plane going faster than 100KTS!! Shut the show down... Yeah sure
Yeah, I thought so too when I only looked at the video, but that A310 is reeaally close to the ground. Someone said about 2 meters - that's not safe no matter what.
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 47, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 26712 times:
Hi!
That's what I said before...people talk and talk and talk, TAP is one of the safest airlines in the world with the best pilots....I bet many airlines from the safest countries in the world do worst things in their day-by-day flights carrying passengers and people don't complain anything....and here we have an AirShow, without any passengers, an A310 piloted by the TAP A310 Chief Pilot without any passengers and people say that the guy should be fired...how many times have you been in a plane that could crash because of bad handling from a crew???? Do these airlines fire those pilots after they land???? Why don't you go to YouTube and see some scary landings in....for example Kai Tak....ask the airlines to fire those pilots....they had passengers there!!!!
Regards
Tomaeroeng From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 33 posts, RR: 0 Reply 49, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 26663 times:
Quoting CV990 (Reply 50): and here we have an AirShow, without any passengers, an A310 piloted by the TAP A310 Chief Pilot without any passengers and people say that the guy should be fired...how many times have you been in a plane that could crash because of bad handling from a crew????
sad thing for a chief pilot to put spectators and organizers at such a risk. accidents like the one on teneriffa happend because of the same issue.. the ole seasoned pilot thinking he s unfailable just messing things up to prove his oversized ego. reasonable flying means within saftey limits and not putting people at risk. many many people have died at airshows because of exactly this behaviour
Ogre727 From Switzerland, joined Feb 2005, 429 posts, RR: 1 Reply 50, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 26643 times:
Quoting CV990 (Reply 50):
That's what I said before...people talk and talk and talk, TAP is one of the safest airlines in the world with the best pilots....I bet many airlines from the safest countries in the world do worst things in their day-by-day flights carrying passengers and people don't complain anything....and here we have an AirShow, without any passengers, an A310 piloted by the TAP A310 Chief Pilot without any passengers and people say that the guy should be fired...how many times have you been in a plane that could crash because of bad handling from a crew???? Do these airlines fire those pilots after they land???? Why don't you go to YouTube and see some scary landings in....for example Kai Tak....ask the airlines to fire those pilots....they had passengers there!!!!
Regards
So what are you saying, just because TAP has a good safety record, one of its captains will never make a mistake or bad judgement on an air show? I think that that is what people are discussing about, it has NOTHING to do with TAP's record.
Photolppt From Portugal, joined Jul 2004, 447 posts, RR: 3 Reply 51, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 26613 times:
Hello everyone,
Trust me, it JUST seems that the wingtip is closer to the ground than it really is. I saw the display, and believe me, the wingtip was never bellow 50-30ft off the ground, as the ground descends a bit from camera viewpoint.
It was a really impressive display, much much better to see live, and a trully deserved farewell to the bird that helped TAP recover its financial health and be the nice company that it is today.
A310, you have served TAP well above expectations, and you will be missed!
The Plane's going to Chicago. The Pilot's going to New York. The Passengers are going to Pieces!
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 52, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 26585 times:
Hi!
What I think is that some people here is just making a "lot of noise" with nothing to complain about!!!
Quoting Tomaeroeng (Reply 52): accidents like the one on teneriffa happend because of the same issue
No, you're wrong about that!!! Do you know why? Because in Tenerife the problem was that Capt. Van Zanten because he was the 747 Chief Pilot wanted to do "his way" with a load of passengers...that's is insane!!! It's the same with the accident with the first AF Airbus A320...the pilot wanted to be the "star" having a load of passengers in the plane!!! Here what we have in an empty airplane with a guy that have 4.000 hours and he knows exactly how to handle a light airplane and give a stricking display.
Quoting Ogre727 (Reply 53): Some people have the STRANGEST logic sometimes.
Perhaps my "STRANGEST" logic is only because the pilot was flying alone with his co-pilot!!! You can say whatever you want about that, but at the end, the plane ( and I repeat again...) landed safely in LIS and the pilot is ready to fly again tomorrow or after tomorrow carrying passengers for TAP!!! Do you have any problem with that? Then don't fly with that pilot...you know the name, next time you fly a TAP plane, before you get in ask the name of the pilot, if it's César Brito....just leave the plane and get another flight!
Regards
BHXFAOTIPYYC From Portugal, joined Jun 2005, 1644 posts, RR: 0 Reply 53, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 26575 times:
Quoting Jdevora (Reply 51): My understanding is that the FBW was introduced in the A320 and tha the A300/A310 doesn't have it.
You are correct. The pilot I was talking to said the 320 probably wouldn't have been able to do that manouever or the FBW system may not have allowed it.
Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
Ogre727 From Switzerland, joined Feb 2005, 429 posts, RR: 1 Reply 54, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 26541 times:
Quoting CV990 (Reply 55): Perhaps my "STRANGEST" logic is only because the pilot was flying alone with his co-pilot!!! You can say whatever you want about that, but at the end, the plane ( and I repeat again...) landed safely in LIS and the pilot is ready to fly again tomorrow or after tomorrow carrying passengers for TAP!!! Do you have any problem with that? Then don't fly with that pilot...you know the name, next time you fly a TAP plane, before you get in ask the name of the pilot, if it's César Brito....just leave the plane and get another flight!
Regards
LOL you keep doing it! Just because he might have made a mistake in an air show does not make him a bad commercial pilot, or TAP unsafe.
You have to admit that based on the videos it is reasonable to at least question if he was reckless or not. Maybe he wasn't, but you can't blame everybody for at least posing the question.
Moreover, questioning the safety flight in the air show does not necessarily translate into people not flying the airline (like you feared/suggested) or not flying with the pilot on a regular flight (like you are suggesting too).
And get the topic "A-310 da TAP em Évora" and you'll see how the display was done.
I was reading the comment from another TP A310 pilot and according to is words this display was all rehearsed in the A310 simulator and they had two flight profiles prepared, the original one ( that was used ) and an alternative one. The wing tip that looks so close to the ground actually it wasn't that low, the view that people had was lower than the actual runway and in the other side of the runway it was also EVEN lower than the opposite one, so there was a good margin to maneuver the A310. But of course people that don't know this airfield may say anything!!! Once again, great display given by a great portuguese TAP pilot!!!
Regards
Kaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 8595 posts, RR: 34 Reply 56, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 26501 times:
Quoting CV990 (Reply 15): The pilot on this great performance flight was Cap. César Brito no less than the TAP Airbus A310 fleet last Chief Pilot...this awesome pilot have 4.000 hours on the A310 and TAP wanted to pay the best tribute for almost 20 years of service in TAP without an accident. The airplane involved was CS-TEI and the co-pilot of that flight was Vitor Pereira. Has you know, from November on TAP will start to receive 5 brand new A330-200 fresh from the factory.
This incredible performance shows the great pilots TAP have during all these years, just to remind you in early 60's the famous Capt. Marcelino passed UNDER Tagus bridge with a Boeing 707!!!
I personally think that Capt. César Brito with this large amount of flying hours on the A310 did knew what he was doing!!!
Remember Cdt. Michel Asseline, senior instructor on the A320 fleet with AF in 1988, with many thousands of hours behind him ... and then he demonstrated an A320 at Habsheim - and we know what happened there. I don't think experience is any protection against doing something stupid. As the saying goes, "skilled pilots are those who don't get themselves into situation where they need to be skilled pilots".
TAP is certainly a very safe airline, but this isn't the kind of thing I would expect from them. The captain, regardless (or indeed, because) his seniority and experience, should be ticked off for this.
As for envelope protection, even on an A330/340 (i.e. a FBW acft), this doesn't protect you against something like this. If a wing hits the ground, it hits the ground; GPWS will give indications, but you can ignore these. In any type, 707 or A380, and anything in between (in terms of technology).
"What are we going to do tonight, Brain?" "Same thing we do every night, Pinky. Try to take over the world".
Mirrodie From United States, joined Apr 2000, 6748 posts, RR: 72 Reply 58, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 26444 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 6): They are commercial pilots at an organized Airshow, with a multi-milion dollar aircraft, i think they know what they were doing....
comercial pilots are not trained to do airshows.
Only a pilot knows if they knew what they were doing.
Also, you never know who's trained and who isnt to do an airshow. That statement is too blanketed.
Quoting Mighluss (Reply 43): Have you seen the fast pass (in the same display, I think) ?
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 59, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 26405 times:
Quoting Kaitak (Reply 56): Remember Cdt. Michel Asseline, senior instructor on the A320 fleet with AF in 1988, with many thousands of hours behind him ... and then he demonstrated an A320 at Habsheim - and we know what happened there. I don't think experience is any protection against doing something stupid. As the saying goes, "skilled pilots are those who don't get themselves into situation where they need to be skilled pilots".
Hi!
That's an interesting point but...you need to mention the following, Captain Asseline was in charge for a brand new airplane that had the new concept of FBW, and he was flying the A320 for the last 3 months...I checked out in the "Air Disaster Volume 3" and I could not find out how many flying hours he in the A320 had but even if we want to make a simple exercise adding 8 hours a day plus 5 days a week plus 12 weeks that would give him around 480 hours in the A320...but I seriously doubt that Captain Asseline had that amount of hours, maybe a third of that, so in this accident what we had was a great background pilot with a brand new experience in a brand new concept airliner.....believe it or not. Regarding Captain Van Zanten 747 Chief Pilot of KLM I checked out "Air Disaster Volume 1" and it's almost the same has Captain Asseline, great background, around 12.000 flying hours, more than 1.500 hours in the 747 but at that time he was "spending most of his working hours instructing in KLM simlulators" - according to the book.
Here we have a line pilot that have 4.000 hours already in a A310, not a brand new airplane like the A330-200 could be...and not flying simulators only...it's good that people can understand that!!!
Regards
NYC777 From United States, joined Jun 2004, 4297 posts, RR: 46 Reply 60, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 26323 times:
Just think another quarter inch to half an inch movement further left on the control column during that turn and you have the makings of a very very bad day.
StrangeLESI From Portugal, joined Feb 2006, 26 posts, RR: 0 Reply 61, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 26292 times:
Fantastic!! Just Fantastic!!!
So many people talking that is a shame, bad for TAPs reputation, wreckless flying.
He is flying a plane that he knows for a long time! He knows what he is doing!
And of course this is not bad for TAP reputation. Normal people understand that this is an airshow! The pilot wont be doing this in comercial flights!! DAHHHH! "On the contraire" this proves that he knows what he is doing everyday, when he takes people to their destinations!
About birdstrikes.. they can happen anywere! And whould be better to happen in a "empty" plane, away from the crouds!!! ( he is away from the stands)
HE is goood!! And makes a lot of people jealous...
Uh... that is way more than 10 degrees... even as a noob (5 hours) and a 15 year old, i can tell you without a doubt that's more like 20-25, maybe 30 degrees of bank.
Maybe it was unsafe, and a little lower than planned but it didn't crash. You're all talking about "What If". What if doesn't matter, it's been and gone, it didn't crash and that's the story.
If homosexuality is a disease, let's all call in queer to work. Sorry, can't work today, still queer.
Cainanuk From United Kingdom (England), joined Apr 2002, 508 posts, RR: 0 Reply 65, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 24398 times:
Quoting CV990 (Reply 15): wanted to pay the best tribute for almost 20 years of service in TAP without an accident.
And he almost gave us one....
Quoting JumpJet (Reply 16): Looks like another airshow disaster in the making to me!
Faro From Egypt, joined Aug 2007, 574 posts, RR: 0 Reply 67, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 24231 times:
Quoting StrangeLESI (Reply 61):
He is flying a plane that he knows for a long time! He knows what he is doing!
No one is disputing that, one simply wonders whether, in doing what he did:
i) he also calculated and deliberately flew a wing-down bank margin for gusts resulting in a 2 meter (max) wingtip clearance;
ii) ditto for birdstrikes and the resulting engine-out yaw/roll; and
iii) ditto for other applicable contingencies such as flight control problems, etc.
If he did calculate and document i)-iii) above in his flight plan, then he did indeed know what he was doing.
OwlEye From Netherlands, joined Feb 2006, 644 posts, RR: 1 Reply 68, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 24150 times:
This movie says enough that he almost miscalculated the situation. Watch how the plane is decending while making the curve to the left, scary!!!!! Lucky escape though!
Sabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2563 posts, RR: 51 Reply 71, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 23605 times:
Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 6): They are commercial pilots at an organized airshow, with a multi-milion dollar aircraft, I think they know what they were doing.
Commercial pilots can not be at the control of an A310 (or in fact any other airliner) unless they'd basically have their own; at an airline you need an ATPL licence to act as PIC on such a plane.
Besides, I wouldn't automatically assume an APTL holder (regardless of his experience on type) to be able to act as demonstration pilot.
I am not going to comment on the skills nor the knowledge of the pilots here: all I will say to it is that at Airbus, you do not take control of a plane on a demonstration flight unless you have done some serious simulator training (including low level recovery procedures). Can't remember I came across any such training in the TAP training manual last time I went trough it.
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 25): One thing is for sure - the GPWS will be going absolutely batshit in the cockpit.
I think you will find quite some Circuit Breakers pulled on that flight deck to avoid just that...
At least I should hope so, because you definitely don't need any additional distractions from actually flying the sequence as good as you can.
Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 27): I thought with gear down the GPWS becomes inactive to prevent it being a distraction when the a/c is actually landing , or have I got it wrong (again)?
Regardless of the configuration of the plane, EGPWS will trigger warnings; in a landing configuration, it will simply make use of an altered envelope however, allowing for closer ground proximity than at gear up...
Having seen the videos, I can assure you that the EGPWS would have given an awfull lot of call outs in case there were no CB's pulled!
Quoting OwlEye (Reply 66): The 'gear down' pass was totally unacceptable; the 'gear up' pass was ok.
In fact, I'd say looking at the passes itself, I'd rather say the 'gear up pass' was something I definitely wouldn't do: high energy, low level, no gear down...
The gear down pass on itself was okay, but the pilot should have recovered from it by a steep climbing turn though; equally spectacular, far more safe! At least that's how we present our planes at Airbus, but hey, who are we to say we know it best, right?
Ellehammer From Denmark, joined Jun 2007, 85 posts, RR: 2 Reply 74, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 23315 times:
I've been to the Ferté-Alais airshow quite a few times, and there is indeed a dip in the terrain beyond the grass strip, which sometimes makes it seem that the planes are about to go underground. I would be very interested in knowing the terrain lay-out at Evora.
JRDC930 From United States, joined Jan 2007, 901 posts, RR: 0 Reply 75, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 22787 times:
Quoting Ajd1992 (Reply 62): Uh... that is way more than 10 degrees... even as a noob (5 hours) and a 15 year old, i can tell you without a doubt that's more like 20-25, maybe 30 degrees of bank.
Ever heard of sarcasm? I know what the bank is. Re read my post.
U.S. Legacy carriers,STILL leaders in lowering industry standards...
JRDC930 From United States, joined Jan 2007, 901 posts, RR: 0 Reply 76, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 22753 times:
Other nations have their own rules as to what a pilot can and cant do, FAA isnt the only authority in the world. Also this is quite similar to an average go-around pass, which i doubt most people would consider an overly dangerous maneuver (on most conditions). I guarantee TAP gave approval, or we would be hearing about the pilots being fired. Its funny how people here think the pilots were going to do something that would kill them... i guess they are just suicidal.
U.S. Legacy carriers,STILL leaders in lowering industry standards...
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 77, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 22539 times:
Hi!
When I read what a TAP A310-300 fellow pilot told about how Captain César Brito projected all this display well....sorry my friends, but if someone went to the Airbus A310-300 simulator to take time to prepare all this event can anyone say that this pilot was reckless, crazy, unconscious etc. etc.?
Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 71): I am not going to comment on the skills nor the knowledge of the pilots here: all I will say to it is that at Airbus, you do not take control of a plane on a demonstration flight unless you have done some serious simulator training (including low level recovery procedures). Can't remember I came across any such training in the TAP training manual last time I went trough it. cheeky
Well maybe you could tell us when was the last time you went trough it....because the information I have is that this pilot indeed went to do that so we only need to cross-check those dates, and I can maybe ask some fellows in TAP when these procedures changed.
At the end I wished I could have had an invitation to be in that flight....I wouldn't refuse for nothing in this world!!!
Regards
EarlyNFF From Germany, joined Sep 2007, 141 posts, RR: 0 Reply 78, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 22493 times:
Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 76): this is quite similar to an average go-around pass, which i doubt most people would consider an overly dangerous maneuver
Correct. That is what airline pilots train in simulators often enough.When the turn begins, it´s a totally different story. No bank below 300ft, max 15° bank 300-500ft. That would be safe.
What I see in all the different videos, this is NOT safe.
KPDX From United States, joined Dec 2005, 1600 posts, RR: 4 Reply 81, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 22247 times:
Quoting CV990 (Reply 77): reckless, crazy, unconscious etc. etc.?
Regardless of opinion, for many people this way below the comfort level for the their safety (even though it was going the other way) or they may be worried their kids may just see a crash happen. Many things could play into this.
Seafleet From United States, joined Aug 2005, 99 posts, RR: 0 Reply 82, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 22045 times:
I think my heart would have been in my mouth if I had only seen the view of the first two videos but in my opinion the third shows that whilst low there was a clear distance maintained between wingtip and ground.
Now I accept that this reduced the margin of error to about zero if a bird strike had taken out one of the engines at the moment of the turn but no birds to be seen.
All airshows are dangerous and unlike motor racing where many go looking for a crash airshow enthusiasts are looking for some out of the box flying to get their kicks.
Roger
B752fanatic From United States, joined Jul 2003, 918 posts, RR: 7 Reply 83, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 21966 times:
These portugese surely know how to enjoy a good airshow, and the acrobatic pilots that volunteer too!
It runs in their veins the Brazilians also share the same passion, once a comercial Varig flight was diverted in order to participate in an airshow. (Yes with pax!)
"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
Tommy1954 From Portugal, joined Jun 2004, 1 posts, RR: 0 Reply 84, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 21877 times:
It was simply a wonderfull low pass done by very talented and professional pilots, and dedicated to everyone who loves aviation. Great A 310 , GREAT pilots.
Don´t forget what Tex J. did in the presentation of the 707, also great pilot in a great airplane.
Curlyheadboy From Italy, joined Feb 2005, 899 posts, RR: 2 Reply 85, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 21836 times:
Well, it seems ti me that the wingtip was awfully close to the ground, so I'm asking:
1) Don't they have a briefing with all pilots before an airshow discussing the maneuvers to be performed?
2) Could have been that the very experienced pilot didn't intend to perform the turn that low and simply had a mishap that fortunately had the best outcome?
3) Don't you think that they had a debriefing session in which they discussed the event and sorted out the factors leading to what I would call an incident?
4) Don't you think that the pilot himself, due to his great experience, must have been the very first person to admit he found himself in a very dangerous situation?
5) So don't you think that the pilot being an outstanding professional and him making a mistake could go together?
If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
OwlEye From Netherlands, joined Feb 2006, 644 posts, RR: 1 Reply 87, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 21490 times:
Quoting Tommy1954 (Reply 84): It was simply a wonderfull low pass done by very talented and professional pilots, and dedicated to everyone who loves aviation. Great A 310 , GREAT pilots.
Your reply sounds almost patriotic but reading your lines I totally disagree, it was an irresponsable act and to me it's negative publicity for TAP Air Portugal. You simply cannot take such risks on an air show. The pilot just was lucky the plane didn't crash.
The video I advised to watch: http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=ly3Y8SZvK1U shows very clearly that he miscalculated the situation. I'm really wondering what the Airshow Traffic Controlers have thought at the 'moment supreme'. I think, behind the scenes, the TAP crew got a serious warning from the airshow organization but ofcourse we'll never know...
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 88, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 21379 times:
Hi!
That's what I think, Captain César Brito was very lucky on that display, and we were very lucky to see him doing that!!! Behind all that it's the images that counts, no one will never forget this last weekend Air Show and I glad I saw it and it was with a pilot from an airline that I really enjoy and he comes from a breed of pilots that I have the previlege to know some of the old ones. The rest? Well rest is history!!!
Regards
GBan From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 639 posts, RR: 0 Reply 90, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 21121 times:
Quoting CV990 (Reply 42): Cap. C%uFFFDr Brito of TAP was the pilot, he knew what was doing, he knew the limit of the plane...and he gave a great display! Tomorrow when he picks a TAP A310-300 do you think he will do that on take-off from LIS...noop, he will fly normally....but I tell you, with the hands this Captain have even in the most turbulent flight I would have I know this guy would handle it great!!!
Certainly he'd not fly this way on a scheduled flight. Nevertheless the display seems to show a little too much self-confidence.
Quoting CV990 (Reply 50): That's what I said before...people talk and talk and talk, TAP is one of the safest airlines in the world with the best pilots....
In that case I prefer to fly with airlines that do not have the best pilots
I really think at the end of the day being aware of limits and risks is at least as if not more important than "flying skills" for a safe trip in todays modern aircraft.
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 92, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 21021 times:
Quoting GBan (Reply 90): In that case I prefer to fly with airlines that do not have the best pilots Wink
Hi Gban.
I accept your position with no complains..but let me just give an insight on that, I think beside this "spiritual" display when we fly commercially we want to have the best pilots to fly you to anywhere you go, I say this because I want to feel safe and I want to know that the guy "in front" of the plane can handle the airplane even in the worst conditions possible. I had the opportunity to fly in some rough conditions, I remember once landing at LAX in a SWISS MD11, the conditions on landing were terrible, a big thunderstorm was just above LAX, wind, rain, everything was there...in such a way that I landed from the ocean side..something that I've tried before an I guess it's not very usual ( might be though...), our pilot did one of the most dramatic and spectacular landings I've ever had...it was not smooth, but the guy put the MD11 on the ground in such a way that I don't even think it was possible....but I noticed that some people was not happy with that landing at all....maybe because they didn't knew the conditions outside....that guy although did a hard and dramatic landing not very comfortable he was a very, very good pilot I tell you!!!
Regards
Voodoo From Niue, joined Mar 2001, 1860 posts, RR: 0 Reply 93, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 20895 times:
I would rather that the pilot of a plane I was flying on did NOT have such *profound* confidence in his ability and risk taking. I would prefer that he always took the conservative approach and left himself an 'out'. This TAP pilot inspires no such confidence in me as a passenger. He is likely to take a risk where others will not. It is possible to display an aircraft to show skill and ability without the strong possibility of certain death in the event of a minor error. TAP should fire his ass and review their safety culture forthwith. This is nothing but macho b.s. as far as I can see.
Owleye From Netherlands, joined Feb 2006, 644 posts, RR: 1 Reply 94, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 20769 times:
Quoting ENU (Reply 89): This is still the lowest pass of an aircraft ever, I think. Air Zimbabwe, but I don't know where and when.
That Air Zimbabwe was a pretty low one. Remember how the F27 Troopship and the F60 of the RNLAF gave their 'act de presence' at airshows! Beware: straight line only, no dangerous banking like the TAP.
Airportugal From Portugal, joined Nov 1999, 138 posts, RR: 18 Reply 95, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 20509 times:
I was at the Évora Air Show and I was on the other side of the runway. Together with me, were two TAP A310 captains who assured that what we saw was previously trained in the company simulator.
KL1291 From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 54 posts, RR: 0 Reply 98, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 20328 times:
Quoting Kaitak (Reply 56): Remember Cdt. Michel Asseline, senior instructor on the A320 fleet with AF in 1988, with many thousands of hours behind him ... and then he demonstrated an A320 at Habsheim - and we know what happened there. I don't think experience is any protection against doing something stupid. As the saying goes, "skilled pilots are those who don't get themselves into situation where they need to be skilled pilots".
That Habsheim demo was where those new wireless Airbus systems failed. Or not?? So, there is no equal situation comparison possible with the TAP A310 demo then. Michel Asseline and the two other casualties were just most unlucky.
I find this complete TAP demo the most perfect example for what MEN and MACHINE are capable of. Just a perfect fly-by!!! I've seen F1 demo's along unprotected crowds, in which, when you think only pessimistic, everything could had been totally wrong.
I also love all Portuguese members of this forum who are just a little over the top in their reaction.
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 99, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 20311 times:
Quoting KL1291 (Reply 98): I also love all Portuguese members of this forum who are just a little over the top in their reaction.
Hi KL1291!
Thanks for your words....we can get also "a little over the top" regarding soccer
By the way, I also like the way the dutch can be really sincere and sharp!!!
Regards
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 101, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 20273 times:
Hi!
Just for your curiosity, this "bad" A310-300, CS-TEI that did the fantastic display came from CCS, went to Évora, returned to LIS and went that evening to NAT, all very smooth....next time one of us that fly in a A310-300 from TP don't forget to check the registration, you might be flying the Tango Echo India....the wild dog!!!
Regards
B752fanatic From United States, joined Jul 2003, 918 posts, RR: 7 Reply 102, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 20223 times:
I suppose that mastering the approach to FNC runway 05 its a nothing compared to that stunt that the pilot did on that air show.
"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
BestWestern I think I didn't said that...you better quote exactly what I said...otherwise I have to admit that you are misleading the rest of the people here..at least be honest and exact ok???
Quoting BestWestern (Reply 104): Why is it that any ANY criticism of portugal or TAP is jumped upon by portuguese members. over and over again.
That's your words, not mine. Do you like your country? Yes? I like mine too!!! Just that...nothing personal with anybody here in the forum...we are just a small country with a small fleet of airplanes but...we have great pilots.
Regards
WHat FBW? 310 only has FBW on the roll axis IIRC...
Quoting CV990 (Reply 15): This incredible performance shows the great pilots TAP have during all these years, just to remind you in early 60's the famous Capt. Marcelino passed UNDER Tagus bridge with a Boeing 707!!!
I personally think that Capt. César Brito with this large amount of flying hours on the A310 did knew what he was doing
Marcelino was lucky not to have been fired... Had he done it in a different airline, he might have been imprisoned, but that's a different matter altogether.
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 25): Yup - loss of power in either engine would be tremendously bad news.
Indeed, loss of an engine during that turn would be an "interesting" outcome.
Quoting CV990 (Reply 47): I bet many airlines from the safest countries in the world do worst things in their day-by-day flights carrying passengers and people don't complain anything....and here we have an AirShow, without any passengers, an A310 piloted by the TAP A310 Chief Pilot without any passengers and people say that the guy should be fired.
The fact that he's the A310 chief pilot is what worries me. Chiefs are less exposed to current flying coz they spend more time on the desk. Chiefs are more likely to loose the plot in an overwhelming situation... Frankly, regardless on whether this was a "calculated risk" or not, having the chief doing it is a bit silly!!!
Quoting CV990 (Reply 47): how many times have you been in a plane that could crash because of bad handling from a crew?
There's a difference between taking acceptable risk and uneccessary risk... This airshow flybys, although impressive, is a concern for me! What would we all have been writing if their thin margins disappear and the airplane cartwheeled infront of the crowd whilst doing the turn? Wouldn't we be condemning it instead? Taking risks and getting away with it therefore it's a good job is NOT a risk averse philosophy, therefore, not anywhere in the commercial aviation safety realm!
A low enough flyby would have impressed people, a few low level 15deg turn would have been enough to raise people's goosebumps without the extra risk, but a 25 degree bank?
Sorry, you cannot judge your wingtip clearance on a turn at a low altitude like that...
"Superior pilots are those who do not need to rely on their superior skills to obtain a superior outcome!"
Next time you have a flying display, DON'T put your chief pilot on it!
Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
I don't believe you! You cannot exercise such a low turn. Planned?? It's forbidden according EU-regulations too 'crazy fly' like this on an airshow with an airliner. You can see that the plane loses winglift when banking left. Lucky enough the Airbus fly-by-wire computer system corrected the plane at the very last moment (would a Boeing have crashed?). Too much risk for an airshow. Bad publicity for TAP i.m.o.
Some other, less risky, airliner 'low pass' videos:
On the video the crew talk about the simulator session beforehand and how every move was practiced and practiced. Unfortunately it is on VHS and I don't know how to get it online!
Quoting EarlyNFF (Reply 7): comercial pilots are not trained to do airshows
Many people here will attest to the fact that SAA's pilots have had more practice than most! Several of them are also top aerobatic pilots.
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 110, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 19252 times:
Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 107): Marcelino was lucky not to have been fired... Had he done it in a different airline, he might have been imprisoned, but that's a different matter altogether.
Hi!
Eh!eh!eh!.....you don't any slightest idea who Captain Marcelino was.....he was a top TAP pilot for many years, he used to fly the President of Portugal in State visits around, he received all sorts of great reports and appreciation letters from Lockheed, Boeing and Aerospatiale and here you come with such a comment that makes me ( and other portuguese enthusiasts ) simply laugh!!! Fire Captain Marcelino would be the same has fire "Tex" Johnson after he did the rolling of the prototype of the 707 over Seattle.....would you fire "Tex" Johnson too doing what he did? Over Seafair event at Seattle?
Regards
Voodoo From Niue, joined Mar 2001, 1860 posts, RR: 0 Reply 111, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 19090 times:
When the plane begins its bank there is actually a slight -loss- of altitude as the wing dips down. The still and frozen shots are misleading because of the nose high attitude. The plane then continues its skewed turn 1/2 way round the pattern outside the airport boundary at very very low altitude. This is something I have not seen pilots do even in aerobatic displays by purpose-built Sukhoi, Extra, Pitts, and Zlin etc. aircraft. The only conclusion one can draw is that this display did *not* go according to what was planned and statements to the contrary are macho cover-ups to protect the 'unfireable' chief pilot. However, if it really *was planned* then it is all the more irresponsible. I won't be flying TAP in a hurry. And, given the current bilateral news climate, its a lucky thing e.g. British tabloid newspapers haven't picked up on this highly visual event which clearly has the potential to inflame loyalties.
Tomaeroeng From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 33 posts, RR: 0 Reply 112, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 19034 times:
Quoting CV990 (Reply 110): Eh!eh!eh!.....you don't any slightest idea who Captain Marcelino was.....he was a top TAP pilot for many years, he used to fly the President of Portugal in State visits around, he received all sorts of great reports and appreciation letters from Lockheed, Boeing and Aerospatiale and here you come with such a comment that makes me ( and other portuguese enthusiasts ) simply laugh!!! Fire Captain Marcelino would be the same has fire "Tex" Johnson after he did the rolling of the prototype of the 707 over Seattle.....would you fire "Tex" Johnson too doing what he did? Over Seafair event at Seattle?
I am getting the impression that this is a Capt. Marcelino personal cult threat. Because he flew the Portuguese President he is some kind of national hero who never makes mistakes? I could not care less. I want a responsible captain in the cockpit of the aircraft I am flying in.
Even if this maneuvre went according to plan and simulator training, this makes it even worse. Then TAP put visitors of this airshow willingly at risk. But I dont think so. There went something wrong in the flying pattern and just because by chance there was no accident, this captain is considered to be the superhero of the airline! In my eyes, this is nothing but macho show off beahviour.. like many people stated.
I find it even more ridiculous to say that an airline has "the best" pilots. It comes down to training. If TAP training procedures are equal to DL, LH, BA, SQ and the likes...then they have fine pilotes.
AF2323 From France, joined Aug 2007, 105 posts, RR: 0 Reply 113, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 18969 times:
Thanks for these great photos, Airportugal!
When I attend to an air show, as a spectator, I want to see spectacular exhibitions. But you have to balance it with safety... people will have equally enjoyed if the the plane was a little higher in the air. To me, there were unnecessary risks taken during this show.
Quoting CV990 (Reply 110): would be the same has fire "Tex" Johnson after he did the rolling of the prototype of the 707 over Seattle.....
Who want to bet that if a Boeing test pilot try to do a roll with the 787, he is fired as soon as he land?
Quoting OwlEye (Reply 108): Lucky enough the Airbus fly-by-wire computer system corrected the plane at the very last moment
I also see a correction, but I don't know if it's the pilot or the flight envelope protection.
This video is interesting: we can extrapolate from the fuselage diameter and the shadow of the plane on the runway that the bottom of the fuselage (under the wings) is at about 8 meters from the ground. I guess the wingtip was very, very close to the ground when the left turn occurred...
BuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2497 posts, RR: 3 Reply 114, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 18941 times:
Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 107): Chiefs are less exposed to current flying coz they spend more time on the desk.
Think Van Zanten...
Quoting OwlEye (Reply 108): Lucky enough the Airbus fly-by-wire computer system corrected the plane at the very last moment
As said before the A310 only has FBW on roll. It does NOT have alpha-floor protection, so there was nothing to correct the plane. Anyway, alpha floor would likely have been unable to make any difference in this situation.
Quoting Tomaeroeng (Reply 112): I find it even more ridiculous to say that an airline has "the best" pilots. It comes down to training
I've been living in Portugal for some years now and you'll hear this type of remark a lot ("Portugal has the best pilots", "Portugal has the best laws", "Portugal has the best X" etc.). Usually not based on any benchmarking study. Their pilots and laws are absolutely fine, but it does sound silly when they claim to be "the best" without providing any evidence for their claim.
It's also interesting to see the two attitudes displayed in this thread. To generalise quite a bit, the foreigners say "the pilot was absolutely reckless!" where the Portuguese say "he made it, so it was OK" (would "wreckless" be the right expression here?). Their reasoning being, presumably, that a pilot who gets closest to the "edge of safety" without actually crossing it, is a good pilot. Which is a philosophy that many others will profoundly disagree with.
Unlike some here, I'll happily keep flying TP though!
Mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 4546 posts, RR: 60 Reply 115, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 18772 times:
Buyant,
Thank you for explaining the obvious perception difference that hasn't been accepted by proponents of both sides of the argument...
The safety culture in the world is moving away from:
"Those who gets closest to the edge of safety without actually crossing it is a good pilot"
and into:
"Those who gets the best combination of reliability, comfort, safety and economics is a good pilot."
Where I am, we've had problems with the "old" ways... and when it gets to the management, we have crashes...
I still get frustrated by pax and airport officials saying "airline X is good, because last week the rain was so bad, airline Y diverted and airline X went in", despite the vis being <800m and the airport had no instrument approaches...
CV990,
I have nothing against Capt. Marcelino and his "stunt"... not because he had "superior skills", but because he did it, and was honest about it when asked! However, the demigod status that people have given him (for an action that flaunted safety training) is the more worrying part!
Had he done it with another airline, he would have been fired... rightly or wrongly, and irrespective of whether he's a good pilot or not. There are differences in cultures' interpretation on what is an acceptable safety risk.
If I'm an airline executive and a pilot does that to one of my jets, I would have him fired! Why? Because if he does it again and something goes wrong, I got an expensive bill to pay! Superior pilots with superior skills, still do, make mistakes! He can do it at TAP or other airlines who likes doing those things... Everyone is different.
And on a lighter note...
Terrain situations causing optical illusions from the runway sides?
Now that is still too low for such a turn! Quick, someone give the captain a test pilot qualification!
*still remembers 1 landing mishap done by a superior captain who decided to let his F/O go to the F/E seat, and then give the F/E time on stick... if there was no mishap, it would have just been another landing... but they didn't, and it was a potential major embarrassment for the whole industry... and the crew probably knew Marcelino personally and maybe they decided to pull a different stunt but got caught out!
Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
Mirage From Portugal, joined May 1999, 3078 posts, RR: 22 Reply 116, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 18732 times:
Quoting OwlEye (Reply 108): I don't believe you! You cannot exercise such a low turn. Planned?? It's forbidden according EU-regulations too 'crazy fly' like this on an airshow with an airliner. You can see that the plane loses winglift when banking left. Lucky enough the Airbus fly-by-wire computer system corrected the plane at the very last moment
You can belive in what you want, no problem, that doesn't change the facts.
It was an exibition on the limit but respecting the A310 performance, the corrections you see are manual made by the pilot, it just shows he was in full control of what he was doing.
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 117, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 18727 times:
Quoting Tomaeroeng (Reply 112): I am getting the impression that this is a Capt. Marcelino personal cult threat. Because he flew the Portuguese President he is some kind of national hero who never makes mistakes? I could not care less. I want a responsible captain in the cockpit of the aircraft I am flying in.
Hi!
I was simply answering to what Mandala499 said...I was out of Captain Marcelino many posts ago...now you came back with that....here's my answer, you simply don't know Captain Marcelino like you don't know a lot about TAP past and TAP pilots....what you say is simply non sense to me and keep "wasting" my words trying to explain that it will be simply tiring!!! But you keep picking on this awesome and great professional that also gave his contribution to have TAP at the place it is right know. TAP pilots used to fly from LIS to Mozambique during 6 days in a C-47...and Captain Marcelino was one of them, like others, Enrique de Maya, Silva Soares, Silva Pereira etc. etc. If there were pilots that were responsible all these pilots I've mention above are in this level, and because you never meet them and talk with them please respect them for what they did.
Regarding Capts. Marcelino, Silva Soares and Enrique de Maya, these 3 great guys went to receive training at Lockheed back to 1955 when TAP was receiving their first two L1049G-82's ( CS-TLA and TLB ). On the final stages of the training these Lockheed invited TWA to come to Burbank with a pilot and a flying mechanic with the qualification of Flight Instructors. With these US pilots it was done a flight and they demonstrated their technics of flying and routine/emergency procedures. After that flight it was a time for a briefing and all these procedures were debated deeply. In various points our 3 TAP pilots completely disagreed with the technics used, and they explained why. But at the end all these issues were closed without changes between both airlines.
After a few months TAP received a visit from Lockheed, an operations engineer and a test pilot, they were coming from a visit to other airlines in a mission to clear out about pilot technics. This because there were a series of accidents mainly on take-offs and Lockheed wanted to research on that and see what procedures were beeing taken. Some airlines used the take-off procedure that after leaving the runway they would keep the airplane close to the ground to have a bigger increase of the speed till they retract the flaps, and only after that with the plane "clean" ( undercarriage and flaps retracted ) they would start to climb. Some accidents occured because when they retracted the flaps the airplane lost altitude and crashed or be damaged. When Lockheed shared that with TAP they were pleased surprised to see that already back to 1953 ( January 1953 ) TAP implemented those procedures so that was nothing new for TAP...that's why TAP and TWA had that "hot debate" in the past....Captain Marcelino was one of those that implemented that, so talking about a responsible pilot surely you don't know who this man was.....I could write lot's of events with this man and other TAP pilots, old and more recent ones....but I'm affraid that will be useless to insentive people like you! I'm sorry you think that way! In Portugal we say - "Don't talk about it if you don't know it!" -
Regards
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 119, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 18597 times:
Hi!
Thanks a lot...you know, I'm not that dumb...you're being sarcastic of course....but I understand that...you don't know the man, you don't know TAP, you don't know TAP pilots and above all....you'll NEVER get a word from me talking about any german great pilot because...I'll ALWAYS assume he's great my the words people say...sceptical is something that I'm not...I trust peoples words...unless they are talking about someone they don't know...you can come with some reports about someone you know that is a great pilot...I'll NEVER..NEVER rebuke what you said..because I trust your words!
Cheers!!!
Regards
SQ325 From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 1365 posts, RR: 10 Reply 120, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 18348 times:
@Mirage
Are you serious by telling us that this manouver was planned, approved and trained in Simulator?
If so I just lost any respect of Portugals aviation authority and TAP Flight Ops and it is a reason to avoid TAP
These Guys had more Luck than anything else and this "Stunt" has nothing to do with safety or controlled flying.
Flying a turn with about 30° Bank at an altitude with less than 100ft and low Speed is just dangerous and against anything an Airliner was designed for. It shows a very unprofessional Attitude of the Pilots if this Manouver was planned.
Btw. I have no clue who Cpt. Marcelino is but honestly, I don' t care.
The Pilot responsible for this "stunt" should be grounded for Risking a Company Ship and for damaging TAPs reputation as a solid Professional Airline. Pilots who say this was a nice and coordinated Manouver don' t belong into a Cockpit of a passenger Aircraft.
Just my point of View!!
TAP1972 From Portugal, joined Dec 2003, 394 posts, RR: 5 Reply 121, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 18342 times:
Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 114): I've been living in Portugal for some years now and you'll hear this type of remark a lot ("Portugal has the best pilots", "Portugal has the best laws", "Portugal has the best X" etc.). Usually not based on any benchmarking study. Their pilots and laws are absolutely fine, but it does sound silly when they claim to be "the best" without providing any evidence for their claim.
I am surprised with your comment. It doesn't show that you live in Portugal. In general the portuguese are worried and concerned people and tend (wrongly) to think that life in other countries, justice in other countries, education in other countries, health services etc. etc are better in other countries (mainly on european countries) than in Portugal.
And in most of it probably we are right to think that, justice, education and health services we are behind average, even though some inprovemnets have been made.
One thing where we portuguese thingk are good is on FOOD, WINE and great wheather...and that my friend we have arguments enough to prove that.
Also, I have been working abroad in the last 2 years in different european countries, where I have been leading teams. And surprise of the surprises I am not impressed. I work in the finance area and I had stronger skilled teams than the ones I have now outside Portugal, for me it was very disapointing and I believe we have better people in Portugal, some people just don't realize that.
About the air show and according to a pilot in a portuguese forum, everything was planned and the anouver was inside the envelope protection.
BuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2497 posts, RR: 3 Reply 123, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 18288 times:
Quoting TAP1972 (Reply 121): I am surprised with your comment. It doesn't show that you live in Portugal. In general the portuguese are worried and concerned people and tend (wrongly) to think that life in other countries, justice in other countries, education in other countries, health services etc. etc are better in other countries (mainly on european countries) than in Portugal.
Well this is the interesting bit: what you say is true (that many Portuguese look up to other countries and the quality of life there), but what I've written is also the case - the bragging definitely happens too. These are two opposites, and I have sometimes even heard them coming from the same person(s). These remarks (in either direction) tend to reduce when people travel more (as you have done), and see that the picture isn't as clearcut: they'll find that in some cases, things are better in Portugal, in other cases things are better elsewhere, and in many cases things are very very similar, at least within Europe. It's a process that takes time though: initially when moving to Portugal I noticed mostly the things that were worse, but as I stayed longer I began to notice that several other things were in fact better than in my home country. Right now, after living here for five years, I really can't say that one is better than the other overall - the difference is in the details.
Quoting TAP1972 (Reply 121): One thing where we portuguese thingk are good is on FOOD, WINE and great wheather...and that my friend we have arguments enough to prove that.
MerlinIIIB From Norway, joined Aug 2005, 91 posts, RR: 0 Reply 124, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 18255 times:
Back in the 1980s I was among the 118 pax on board a B737-200 performing a low pass during an airshow in Norway. Prior to the low pass we did some low flying sight-seeing in the North Sea, circling oil platforms and fishing vessels. I met the PIC after the flight and he told me that we did the low pass at 50 ft and 650 km/h with a steep climb (no bank) at the end of the airfield. I felt very safe and I believe the other 117 felt the same. What a day.
Mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 4546 posts, RR: 60 Reply 125, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 18214 times:
Well, knowing the culture of the peninsula... as much as I don't approve of such manouvers, come to think of it, better to have that stunt done on TAP than say, Ryanair... why? Nothing is perfect, cultures are different... As much as I hate to admit it, if I am to be in that plane (although I'd rather not), I'd rather have a bravado Portuguese pilot than a Brit or an Irishman (Scots excepted)...
Why? Not for the claims of exceptional skills, but because risk taking is more comfortable in their culture. Better to have a captain who carries a swagger stick into the cockpit then performing this manouver while puffing away at his ciggies than to have a captain who does thing by the book and when he has to do this he has sweaty palms...
But, still a crazy stunt to me!
Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
Mirrodie From United States, joined Apr 2000, 6748 posts, RR: 72 Reply 126, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 18198 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 107): Marcelino was lucky not to have been fired... Had he done it in a different airline, he might have been imprisoned, but that's a different matter altogether.
Quoting AF2323 (Reply 113): Who want to bet that if a Boeing test pilot try to do a roll with the 787, he is fired as soon as he land?
Quoting BestWestern (Reply 104): Quoting KrisYUL (Reply 12):
Ah, the wonders of Airbus FBW.
Ah the wonders of pilots with egos the size of elephants.
Are you serious by telling us that this manouver was planned, approved and trained in Simulator?
If so I just lost any respect of Portugals aviation authority and TAP Flight Ops and it is a reason to avoid TAP
These Guys had more Luck than anything else and this "Stunt" has nothing to do with safety or controlled flying.
Flying a turn with about 30° Bank at an altitude with less than 100ft and low Speed is just dangerous and against anything an Airliner was designed for. It shows a very unprofessional Attitude of the Pilots if this Manouver was planned.
Btw. I have no clue who Cpt. Marcelino is but honestly, I don' t care.
The Pilot responsible for this "stunt" should be grounded for Risking a Company Ship and for damaging TAPs reputation as a solid Professional Airline. Pilots who say this was a nice and coordinated Manouver don' t belong into a Cockpit of a passenger Aircraft.
Just my point of View!!
Information given by TAP A310 pilots, I have no reason not to belive, keep in mind the A310 flight envelope was respected in full control.
This particular exibition was dared, no doubt, but please, it's not fair to judge TAP based on an airshow, how intelligent is that? don't mix an airshow exibition with TAP regular transportation of passengers, please check TAP accidents history, it's a safe airline, end of discussion.
Please also don't judge our country or people by those comments some portuguese make like "we have the best pilots and the best this and best that", it's also not fair. Those comments are just the enthusiasm speaking, please remember we are latins, we tend to get enthusiastic very easily, we tend to speak with heart quite often, those kind of comments are not to be taken seriously.
Mirrodie From United States, joined Apr 2000, 6748 posts, RR: 72 Reply 128, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 18114 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting Mirage (Reply 127): This particular exibition was dared, no doubt, but please, it's not fair to judge TAP based on an airshow, how intelligent is that? don't mix an airshow exibition with TAP regular transportation of passengers, please check TAP accidents history, it's a safe airline, end of discussion.
Please also don't judge our country or people by those comments some portuguese make like "we have the best pilots and the best this and best that", it's also not fair. Those comments are just the enthusiasm speaking, please remember we are latins, we tend to get enthusiastic very easily, we tend to speak with heart quite often, those kind of comments are not to be taken seriously.
Well said Luis.
I can sense the enthusiasm .
But I always question the comments here made by non-professional, non-pilots who speak as if they know what is proper or not.
StrangeLESI From Portugal, joined Feb 2006, 26 posts, RR: 0 Reply 129, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 18036 times:
There is no lifes at risk! ( besides the pilots ) Look at the pictures from Luis ( Always the best )
reckless is flying old planes with no maintenance!
he did something he knew it would work!!!
What if he had an engine stop... what if.....
What if a flee crashed into the windshield of he A310, would it crash? What if????
YESS!! I am A VERY proud Portuguese! Althought i don't agree with many things that happen in Portugal, such as car wreckless driving, that is dangerous! That puts lifes in danger!! Those people have no practice, they had no previous simulations!!
But i also agree that everyone has the right to express their opinion!
C'mon guys! :P Calm down!
Next time you come to Braga, i'll buy you all a beer
SQ325 From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 1365 posts, RR: 10 Reply 130, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 17964 times:
@Mirage
to clarify one thing!
I said nothing against your country and your people.
I just wanted to point out that this kind of flying is not acceptable from my point of view.
I'm not sure about the protection envelope of the A310. But there have been accidents in the past where to much trust in the Aircraft systems caused some deads. (AF A320 Straßbourg)
There is also a nice discussion un Pprune regarding this display including a comment of a former fighter pilot who flew displays.
Now I think I said enough and I will keep myself out of this Topic.
Everything is said I think
This is some truly amazing footage. It looks like the left wing is 2 to 3 meters off the ground. I don't know whether it's superior control and nerves of steel or sheer luck that makes you avoid a crash when you're so low and you can't even see the wings yourself.
Mirrodie From United States, joined Apr 2000, 6748 posts, RR: 72 Reply 133, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 17869 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting StrangeLESI (Reply 129): YESS!! I am A VERY proud Portuguese! Althought i don't agree with many things that happen in Portugal, such as car wreckless driving, that is dangerous! That puts lifes in danger!! Those people have no practice, they had no previous simulations!!
But i also agree that everyone has the right to express their opinion!
Like I said, I love your enthusiasm.
And also as you said, everyone DOEs indeed have a right to an opinion. But wouldn't it be nice if those opinions were based on hard data from individuals "in the know"?
Love your enthusiasm! Wish I was there to see it.
The TAP A310 is truly one of my favorite planes to photograph.
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 134, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 17805 times:
Hi!
I don't have any problem to say that I'm "non-professional" guy in this matter....just my user profile and you'll see it....no problem at all!!! I could have written there that I was "airline pilot" ( I wonder how many people in Airliners.Net write in their profiles something they are not...) but noop, I'm just an ordinary portuguese fellow that enjoys aviation since I'm a kid, but there's something nobody can take from me, it's the fact that during all the wonderfull years of my life I had the chance to connect with many portuguese pilots, from TAP and from Portugal Air force, from old guys like the pilots I've meet from the beginning of TAP to pilots that still fly now with TAP and our Air Force.....and that my friends is something that a value very much. When I see guys here that come to comments like the one of SQ325, it's just an insult! And for the sake of the friendship I have from those men I cannot tolerate that....specially coming from someone that is so insensitive with is words, I cannot respect guys like him, I'm sorry!
When I was a 19 years old I had the chance to visit TAP Museum and I was introduced to Captain Silva Pereira, a retired TAP pilot that arrived at TAP in 1947. From then on we established a friendship that still lasts today, I used to pass afternoons in the Museum and he would recall some moments of is shining times in TAP, I would ask him many questions and this old pilot would answer to them with a lot of care, patience and honesty. Captain Silva Pereira also introduced me Captain Enrique de Maya, one of the 11 TAP pilots that did the first airliner course at BOAC in UK, back to 1945.....my father told me lot's of things about him but until the 80's I never had the opportunity to meet him until one day Captain Silva Pereira told if I know that gentleman....well I looked to that man with is hair all white, with glasses and I said I didn't knew, and then it comes the name, Captain Maya!!! I was speechless....I was almost scare because I didn't knew if I could actually satisfy my curiosity regarding early TAP operations.....but soon I found out that Captain Maya was like Captain Silva Pereira and like Captain Marcelino, a gentleman, a humble guy also ready to answer every question. Those were the breed of these brave pilots, simple persons, humble, ready to talk with a teenager an answer even maybe stupid questions I know, but they would take time. These were the ones that started TAP, those were the ones that loved flying, those were the ones that would invite you to their cockpits, those were old school guys that wanted to share aviation with kids and pass the dream to them, how many airline or military pilots do we have now that were influenced by these type of people? How many?
So when someone says:
Quoting SQ325 (Reply 120): Btw. I have no clue who Cpt. Marcelino is but honestly, I don' t care.
That's for me an insult, and coming from a pilot it's even worst....in my humble opinion you never insult a fellow that have the same profession has you....that's a very big lack of education I think! So here's my answer - You never meat Captain Marcelino? Pity! You could have learned a bit from him!
Just to end I just want to say that the generation we have of pilots like now it's like any other profession we see more and more....there's more people being pilots has a job and less pilots with a truly, genuine passion for flying...it's coming more and more mechanized and less and less humanized!
Captain Enrique de Maya wrote this sentence before he died and I love because shows the truly sense of a REAL PILOT - I quote:
" TAP for me was:
A source of full Happiness in my professional work, lived with fulfillment
A source of full Friendship in a delightedly profession, in a group work that without it nothing could be Donne with sequence and nothing could be done with profound roots.
A source of full Happiness, and that was only possible because my family accepted my work in TAP without creating me any personal problems.
A source of Reflexion, pain, but not by giving up, even when the misunderstandings and the mistakes were obstacles in the human and professional friendship.
An Occasion permanent of Spiritual Graces that I see more clearly in this decline of human being , in this climb to the infinite to God.
Wonderfull and wise words from a great pilot!
Regards
Stickers From South Africa, joined Sep 2007, 100 posts, RR: 0 Reply 135, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 17678 times:
Much of what i think has already been said, but just to add this thought. Airshows are meant to provide "WOW" moments. These moments are by definition risky and out of the ordinary. They are amazing demonstrations of skill and that is what attracts the public. This Captian and flight crew are professionals who executed a well planned and more importantly a well practiced manouvre.
If this was risky, and irreseponsible, then how risky and irressponsible are 6 guys in F18's or F16's flying at each other and trying to just miss one another in order to impress the crowds, or how crazy is it for them to fly 1 or two meteres from another 5 planes travelling at 650kmh? Thats also irresponsible, ...but wait a minute, thats different, they are professionals who practice. Just like this flight crew, professionals who practice.
And just in case you think the analagy is way off, of all the airliners that have performed at airshows doing spectacular stunts, the accident rate isn't even a fraction of the accident rate of acrobatic pilots performing their manouvres. So whats more risky??
We enjoy these shows, and i love the acrobatic teams and airliners performing their stunts, but they will always be that... stunts that carry some risk but show great skill, thats what makes them exciting.
Just my opinion... me if you want to, i can take it. I have broad shoulders, and a waist to match.
Quoting Tomaeroeng (Reply 112): Even if this maneuvre went according to plan and simulator training, this makes it even worse. Then TAP put visitors of this airshow willingly at risk.
As I have studied the videos, it seems that everyone was behind the flightline and the crowd was in no danger.
CBPhoto From United States, joined Dec 2003, 765 posts, RR: 4 Reply 136, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 17500 times:
Quoting Stickers (Reply 135): Much of what i think has already been said, but just to add this thought. Airshows are meant to provide "WOW" moments. These moments are by definition risky and out of the ordinary. They are amazing demonstrations of skill and that is what attracts the public. This Captian and flight crew are professionals who executed a well planned and more importantly a well practiced manouvre.
If this was risky, and irreseponsible, then how risky and irressponsible are 6 guys in F18's or F16's flying at each other and trying to just miss one another in order to impress the crowds, or how crazy is it for them to fly 1 or two meteres from another 5 planes travelling at 650kmh? Thats also irresponsible, ...but wait a minute, thats different, they are professionals who practice. Just like this flight crew, professionals who practice.
And just in case you think the analagy is way off, of all the airliners that have performed at airshows doing spectacular stunts, the accident rate isn't even a fraction of the accident rate of acrobatic pilots performing their manouvres. So whats more risky??
We enjoy these shows, and i love the acrobatic teams and airliners performing their stunts, but they will always be that... stunts that carry some risk but show great skill, thats what makes them exciting.
Very well Said....welcome to my RU!!!
I just want to add, by looking at Luis's pictures, the left wing actually does not appear to the "very" close to the ground. The terrain does indeed slope down, and by the looks of it, it was planned to commence the bank in that dip precisely. I can only imagine what it would have been like, but as some someone who has helped planned and execute airshows in the US for a few years, it is def something you would never see here in the US. But thats the beauty of going to an airshow outside the country, as stickers said, the WOW factor!!!
EDDB From Germany, joined Aug 2006, 238 posts, RR: 0 Reply 137, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 17495 times:
Quoting CV990 (Reply 77): When I read what a TAP A310-300 fellow pilot told about how Captain César Brito projected all this display well....sorry my friends, but if someone went to the Airbus A310-300 simulator to take time to prepare all this event can anyone say that this pilot was reckless, crazy, unconscious etc. etc.?
Quoting Airportugal (Reply 95): I was at the Évora Air Show and I was on the other side of the runway. Together with me, were two TAP A310 captains who assured that what we saw was previously trained in the company simulator.
Quoting Mirage (Reply 103): People, calm down, this exibition was planned and executed in simulator many times before September 15th.
Guys, I respect that you are proud of Captain Brito..... I respect what he has done and achieved in his life.... I respect TAP as a professional and safe airline!
But talking about this very special moment caught on tape, talking about what he was doing there.... He simply could not plan it to be this close! He could not train it to be this close in a simulator! And as someone who is sitting in a simulator quite often and pretends to know at least a little bit what he is talking about, I'd like to tell you the following...
YOU CANT EVEN SEE YOUR WINGTIPS IN THE SIM!!!!! They are simply not displayed!!!
YOU CANT KNOW THE LOCAL WIND AND THERMAL SITUATION IN ADVANCE AND THEREFORE CANT PROGRAM THE SIMULATOR REALISTICALLY!!!! Even a simple thing like a touchdown does not feel like in real life, I assure you!
EVERY ENGINE IS PERFORMING SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT!!! Especially when compared to the Simulator engine performance! Based on it's age, cycles, and so on...
So again... YOU CANT TRAIN THAT IN A SIMULATOR!
I cant help but feel that he might got overconfident and that if wind, thermals or other unpredictable influences had turned against him, this would have ended catastrophically!
And a really really professional pilot is not the one flying the most fascinating manouvers, but the one who has the guts admitting that he pushed the limit too far and that it wasn't good! THAT would make ME think "Wow, what a great pilot!" Trust me and believe me, if you had read what I read about incidents and near catastrophic accidents in everyday airline operation, and how thin the line sometimes becomes and that it is sometimes pure luck that saved the day, you would think the same....
Again, this is not personal or disrespectful and surely not jealous! This is just about this very special manouver and that even the best pilot in the world can be wrong sometime....
OwlEye From Netherlands, joined Feb 2006, 644 posts, RR: 1 Reply 138, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 17328 times:
Quoting Mirage (Reply 116): You can belive in what you want, no problem, that doesn't change the facts.
It was an exibition on the limit but respecting the A310 performance, the corrections you see are manual made by the pilot, it just shows he was in full control of what he was doing.
AF2323 From France, joined Aug 2007, 105 posts, RR: 0 Reply 139, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks ago) and read 17272 times:
Quoting CBPhoto (Reply 136): I just want to add, by looking at Luis's pictures, the left wing actually does not appear to the "very" close to the ground.The terrain does indeed slope down, and by the looks of it, it was planned to commence the bank in that dip precisely.
Mirage From Portugal, joined May 1999, 3078 posts, RR: 22 Reply 141, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 16960 times:
Quoting EarlyNFF (Reply 140): when you look at this one, you can see exactly that he is flying right above spectators.
Now you're starting to talk about what you don't know, those are a group of plane spotters under proper escort by the organization to photograph the event.
I can be under an airliner like that at my local airport, Faro, or SXM, or many other airports in the world, what's the point?
Portugal Air Show has the same layout as RIAT, I've been to both, just RIAT is a gigantic airshow compared with Portugal Air Show, it's the only difference.
I tend to lurk more than post on here but did watching those clips make anyone else's stomach muscles all clench at the same time? I think even my buttocks clenched too .
I'm not a pilot so I have no idea as to safety margins and all that malarkey but I did find it just a tad scary.
It's always funny until someone gets hurt. Then it's just hilarious.
EarlyNFF From Germany, joined Sep 2007, 141 posts, RR: 0 Reply 146, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 16690 times:
Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 144): If you are indeed a retired pilot, can you please explain further why?
I don´t care about famous names.
I don´t care about the position he is holding.
I don´t care about many flying hours he gathered.
I do care about the ATTITUDE of that Airline Pilot, who puts people (and material) at RISK.
That is what is not acceptable to me.
Once again: you CAN NOT train all odds in a simulator .
And that famous barrel roll by that famous Boeing test pilot: the result was, other wellpraised warheroes tried to do it also - and failed! Not only once. Look up LH B720 history!
Mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 4546 posts, RR: 60 Reply 147, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 16626 times:
I read a very good comment just now... from someone who claims to be Portuguese and flies the 310 in Portugal but not with TAP....
Quote: For those who in this forum have been insulting the pilot, calling him idiot, irresponsible, unprofessional and all that, beware: you're the next ones in line to break the face, because you need to think you're better than others and that´s not a good sign.
I know the guy that was flying the airplane, a he's a good pilot, as good as anyone else. Portugal is a small country, everybody knows everybody in aviation, and our standards are very homogeneous, there are not so many ways to trail a career in this country. I guess this shows on our safety record.
HE MESSED UP! That is a fact. This surely hasn't gone as planned. I won't make any considerations on height above ground and stuff like that, this was an air show and it seems appropriate to me. But:
1. Since my early fliyng, I was taught to do this maneuver in the following order: first you pull, then you roll. And in this case it was the other way round, rolled then pulled. I don't realy know how close that wingtip was from the ground, but thath's beside the point. And the airplane was left in a low energy condition for a long time during that turn, hanged by its engines (with those great engines it's very easy). I think he was lucky, gladly. It was not nice to watch this situation, althoug the enthusiasts loved it.
2. In one of the other low passes, gear up and flaps up, maybe slats extended, the aicraft entered a strong dutch roll motion, with a side slip beyond what I thing is acceptable for the situation, too much uncoordinated flight for that height in a jetliner. Dutch roll is not an exclusively high altitude/high speed phenomenon, and the A310 is very much a dutch roll prone acft. This was also not nice to see.
I guess lessons will be learned.
Nice and objective...
Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
Stickers From South Africa, joined Sep 2007, 100 posts, RR: 0 Reply 148, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 16621 times:
Quoting EarlyNFF (Reply 146): do care about the ATTITUDE of that Airline Pilot, who puts people (and material) at RISK.
That is what is not acceptable to me.
What the attitude of the pilot is was is speculation at best. You cannot know that. (Unless he contributes to this thread.) And as stated in my previous post, every airshow involves risk, especially the low flybys and acrobatics. In every case, should one of the variables (wind, birds, engines) not behave as predicted, there would be a problem. (Pictures below: imagine something going wrong)
That is why they do checks of the weather on the day, the situation at large and a thorough pre-flight check on the plane. If all is in order, then they fly and do what they have practiced, and we get to be thrilled by their skill and the wonder of the modern aircraft.
I don't know, which is why I *politely* asked for an explanation.
Quoting EarlyNFF (Reply 146): I do care about the ATTITUDE of that Airline Pilot, who puts people (and material) at RISK.
That is what is not acceptable to me.
Unless we were in the cockpit and sims with the pilot, none of us know what was truly going on, right?
The rest of our comments, like the majority of the thread, is assumption. In fact, as I am typing this, I see this is what Sticker also maintains.
Quoting Stickers (Reply 148): Quoting EarlyNFF (Reply 146):
do care about the ATTITUDE of that Airline Pilot, who puts people (and material) at RISK.
That is what is not acceptable to me.
What the attitude of the pilot is was is speculation at best. You cannot know that. (Unless he contributes to this thread.) And as stated in my previous post, every airshow involves risk, especially the low flybys and acrobatics. In every case, should one of the variables (wind, birds, engines) not behave as predicted, there would be a problem.
You know what would be OUTSTANDING? To hear from the pilot. But then again, with the comments here, some would probably jump on him too. :-/ If anyone knows the pilot, have him email us. That would be great.
Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 147): I read a very good comment just now... from someone who claims to be Portuguese and flies the 310 in Portugal but not with TAP....
Quote:
For those who in this forum have been insulting the pilot, calling him idiot, irresponsible, unprofessional and all that, beware: you're the next ones in line to break the face, because you need to think you're better than others and that´s not a good sign.
I know the guy that was flying the airplane, a he's a good pilot, as good as anyone else. Portugal is a small country, everybody knows everybody in aviation, and our standards are very homogeneous, there are not so many ways to trail a career in this country. I guess this shows on our safety record.
HE MESSED UP! That is a fact. This surely hasn't gone as planned. I won't make any considerations on height above ground and stuff like that, this was an air show and it seems appropriate to me. But:
1. Since my early fliyng, I was taught to do this maneuver in the following order: first you pull, then you roll. And in this case it was the other way round, rolled then pulled. I don't realy know how close that wingtip was from the ground, but thath's beside the point. And the airplane was left in a low energy condition for a long time during that turn, hanged by its engines (with those great engines it's very easy). I think he was lucky, gladly. It was not nice to watch this situation, althoug the enthusiasts loved it.
2. In one of the other low passes, gear up and flaps up, maybe slats extended, the aicraft entered a strong dutch roll motion, with a side slip beyond what I thing is acceptable for the situation, too much uncoordinated flight for that height in a jetliner. Dutch roll is not an exclusively high altitude/high speed phenomenon, and the A310 is very much a dutch roll prone acft. This was also not nice to see.
I guess lessons will be learned.
Nice and objective...
Mandala499
I do appreciate that quote. Shows an opinion from those in the know.
Andz From South Africa, joined Feb 2004, 7258 posts, RR: 14 Reply 150, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 16545 times:
Quoting EDDB (Reply 137): So again... YOU CANT TRAIN THAT IN A SIMULATOR!
Are you a pilot? From what I have heard from very experienced commercial pilots, you can do more in a sim than the real thing. I'm not being facetious, just asking.....
EarlyNFF From Germany, joined Sep 2007, 141 posts, RR: 0 Reply 151, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 16512 times:
Quoting Andz (Reply 150): you can do more in a sim than the real thing.
not quite correct: you can do more in a sim than you WOULD do in an aircraft. Just to avoid risks. It cannot do things that the aircraft can not.
The famous battle roll, loopings and that stuff cannot be done in an airliner sim. It depends also on the age of the sim, what can be done. Normally, when you exceed the aircraft envelope, the system just blacks out = crash
EDDB From Germany, joined Aug 2006, 238 posts, RR: 0 Reply 152, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 16424 times:
Quoting Andz (Reply 150): Quoting EDDB (Reply 137):
So again... YOU CANT TRAIN THAT IN A SIMULATOR!
Are you a pilot? From what I have heard from very experienced commercial pilots, you can do more in a sim than the real thing. I'm not being facetious, just asking.....
I thought is was obvious when I said that I'm in a Sim quite regularly.... So the answer is yes!
What your friends maybe wanted to state by saying "you can do more" is that you can practice failures and procedures much better there! But when it comes to flying skills the Sim, although being pretty good nowadays, still feels a little different and artificial compared to real life flying! As I said, how do you want to train the wingtip being this close to the ground (and I don't care if it's 8 feet or rather 30feet, it's simply f...ing close) if you don't even see the wingtip in the Sim!
Every airliner pilot knows and experiences how small wind changes in direction and speed or local turbulence due to buildings etc. do cause little changes in your flightpath during final approach, and here we're talking about only a few feet...
I believe everyone here saying he's a damn good pilot... But I promise you won't find any commercial airline pilot in the world who never ever misjudged a certain situation! The only reason that we're talking about this Captain is that his misjudgment was caught on tape...
Breiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1383 posts, RR: 3 Reply 153, posted (2 years 2 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 14424 times:
Quoting CV990 (Reply 134): I don't have any problem to say that I'm "non-professional" guy in this matter....
Personally, I would regard you as a true air enthusiast.
CV990, now that the dust blown up by CS-TEI has settled down, would you be able to get some factual info from TAP and/or the pilots?
Did they know how close to the ground was the wingtip (now that they have seen the videos), and how close to stalling was -TEI during the long low altitude turn?
As JumpJet mentioned earlier, I too was expecting the plane to slide slip anytime.
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so we only need to cross-check those dates, and I can maybe ask some fellows in TAP when these procedures changed.
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. However I don't think it is risky as long as the pilot knows what he is doing and aware of the situation.
me if you want to, i can take it. I have broad shoulders, and a waist to match. 
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