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787: Unsafe Per Whistleblower In Interview  
User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4494 posts, RR: 26
Posted (8 years 5 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 35466 times:

From an interview with Dan Rather to be broadcast tomorrow evening at 8:00 PM ET.

Speaking only to DAN RATHER REPORTS, Weldon says that Boeing's
new 787 Dreamliner has major safety problems stemming from its
design and use of reinforced plastics -- called composites --
that will make the plane unfit to withstand survivable crash

Weldon describes how the composite fuselage will "shatter, not
crumple" in a crash landing.


I think he's whining about some core safety issues, which are the very ones Boeing would have addressed and tackled FIRST, and before any other engineering issues, when considering building a CFRP airplane.

I wonder what kind of ax he has to grind. Unfortunately (for Mr. Wedon), Dan Rather's credibility as a journalist is not much higher than a used-car salesman. I think he's just looking for some publicity.

My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
331 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5917 posts, RR: 45
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 35311 times:

Yeah and I wonder then how this aircraft could pass muster with 48 airlines and I also wonder how the A350 would fair as well? And what about all the military aircraft that have been built using composites. Sounds like he has an axe to grind and is trying to find a way to hurt Boeing.

That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineLegoguy From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 3317 posts, RR: 36
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 35249 times:

What actually would happen to a 787 or A350 during a survivable crash landing'? Would the fuselage actually shatter thus sending alot of carbon shrapnel throughout the cabin? Or would the fuselage shatter sending debris away from the fuselage instead of in to the fuselage?

Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
User currently offlineHelvknight From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 35218 times:

I wonder if this was the guy who was canned from Boeing a little while ago when he was found passing confidential info to the Seattle papers. I think Clickhappy posted the story.

If it is then the guy had a serious grudge against Boeing for outsourcing to southern states (Banjo playing yokels I think he called them) and to Japan.

Boeing have bet the farm on the 787, if it turns out to be another Comet 1 they're probably finished and they know it. Anyway we need Boeing to keep John Leahy honest (same as Boeing need Airbus to keep Randy honest)

User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6607 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 35013 times:

Keep in mind when you read this that Rather has condoned if not been complicit in the journalistic equivalent of planting evidence. Maybe these purported safety issues are true, but I won't believe it until someone who doesn't have taint all over him reports it.

When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 33664 posts, RR: 85
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 34914 times:
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Quoting Legoguy (Reply 2):
What actually would happen to a 787 or A350 during a survivable crash landing'? Would the fuselage actually shatter thus sending alot of carbon shrapnel throughout the cabin? Or would the fuselage shatter sending debris away from the fuselage instead of in to the fuselage?

Boeing have completed three large-scale "crash tests" of the 787 and all three have been deemed "successes" by Boeing and the FAA and have been said to validate Boeing's computer models of how a 787 would likely deform in an accident.

While Boeing has not released the specifics, I would expect that it would be no more dangerous then an Al airliner.

User currently offlineJetJock22 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 34842 times:

Quoting RedFlyer (Thread starter):
Speaking only to DAN RATHER REPORTS,

That's the first red flag right there.....

User currently offlineEllehammer From Denmark, joined Jun 2007, 97 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 34841 times:

Wasn't Dan Rather the guy who did the 787 presentation?

User currently offlineEllehammer From Denmark, joined Jun 2007, 97 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 34795 times:

...at the roll-out...

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 33664 posts, RR: 85
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 34796 times:
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Quoting Ellehammer (Reply 7):
Wasn't Dan Rather the guy who did the 787 presentation?

That was Brokaw with NBC.

User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6607 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day ago) and read 34717 times:

Quoting Ellehammer (Reply 7):
Wasn't Dan Rather the guy who did the 787 presentation?

No, Dan Rather was the guy who aired a story about President Bush going AWOL during the Vietnam War. Whether it was true or not (it doesn't matter), the documents used to back the story were in fact forged. When expert analysis proved this beyond a shadow of a doubt, Rather refused to back down. He didn't do the forging but he was guilty of not fact-checking and then (when shown up) not recanting. If he had at least backed down in the beginning, he wouldn't have been fired from CBS.

When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 7485 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day ago) and read 34621 times:

Quoting RedFlyer (Thread starter):
Dan Rather's credibility as a journalist is not much higher than a used-car salesman. I think he's just looking for some publicity.

That is a huge insult to all used car salesman.

Quoting Ellehammer (Reply 7):
Wasn't Dan Rather the guy who did the 787 presentation?

No, it was Tom Brokaw.

The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineEllehammer From Denmark, joined Jun 2007, 97 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day ago) and read 34562 times:

Ah sorry! You're right, Tom Brokaw.

User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 2072 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day ago) and read 34544 times:

Probably some union guy pissed off about the amount of work Asia and Europe got to do for Boeing this time around. Nothing more, nothing less.

User currently offlineEllehammer From Denmark, joined Jun 2007, 97 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day ago) and read 34494 times:

Regarding composites vs. aluminium, it is true that composites sometimes exhibit unwanted behaviour. At the recent crash-landing of a Danish Dash-8 Q400 the composite propeller shattered and sent shards into the passenger cabin. A metal prop would most probably just end up with the blades bending backwards.

I guess there must have been a lot of thought going into the construction of the B787, it seems highly unlikely that nobody would work on such an issue, so I'm certain that the composite has been enveloped one way or the other.

User currently offlineRemcor From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 361 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day ago) and read 34467 times:

Whoa... whoa whoa... let's just slow down a second.

Does anyone here ever watch Formula 1? Great stuff, most advanced cars in the world with complete carbon-fiber chassis. Now has anyone ever watched one crash? They do send carbon fiber splinters everywhere and they do shatter.

The last time I watched a crash (Kubica in Montreal, fantastic crash) I wondered about the same thing regarding the 787/A350. I don't think it's something that isn't worth discussing.

Granted, the F1 cars are still very safe with their carbon fiber chassis, and granted an airplane with a company as huge as Boeing behind it is going to go to great lengths to ensure its safety, but I think there can be no doubt that the nature of a 787/A350 crash would be a lot different than a crash of a metal plane.

Yes, I would hope that they would have run numerous tests on the frame (however the recent fuselage test that passed doesn't address what this guy is talking about), but I still think it's worth discussing instead of just saying 'bah!'.

User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4494 posts, RR: 26
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day ago) and read 34467 times:

I just Google'd on his name. For someone that spent 46 years in the industry and is a "pioneer in aerospace design", there is very, very little out there on the guy.

My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently offlineSh0rtybr0wn From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 528 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day ago) and read 34431 times:

Carbon fiber is stronger than Aluminum and Boeing usually overbuilds things at first anyway.

There there have only been 6 or 7 hull loss accidents of a similar sized plane (767) as of 2005 with 568 fatalities. In most of those, the splintering / cracking of the fuselage wouldnt have made a difference. Is this really that big of an issue? When planes hit the ground they pretty much break up quickly, a la the Phuket crash, where the plane "crumpled" and still broke up.

The 787 will have the most advanced avionics ever in a commercial plane, so hopefully fewer crashes will happen anyway.

User currently offlineTeamAmerica From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 1761 posts, RR: 23
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day ago) and read 34402 times:

Is "shattering" CFRP less efficient at dissipating energy than "crumpling" aluminum? I don't think we can make a blanket assumption about that. The premise of the accusation is doubtful right at the outset.

Airliners could be safer if the fuselage was armored, exit doors provided for each row, airbags in each seat back...you name it! The resulting Volvo of the sky would be too heavy to carry a useful payload, at least at what we consider reasonable ticket prices.

We knowingly exchange some degree of safety for efficiency...true of cars, buses, trains and planes. yes 

Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4494 posts, RR: 26
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day ago) and read 34402 times:

Quoting Remcor (Reply 16):
I don't think it's something that isn't worth discussing.

Of course it's worth discussing. The issue is, why is this guy the only one that is raising flags about it. Also, it appears at first glance to implicate Boeing in some major cover-up. Is he the only one that is aware of the properties of CFRP when destructive forces are applied to it? Does anyone think Boeing conveniently chose to ignore it? What about the FAA?

My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently offlineHimself From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 62 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day ago) and read 34336 times:

I wonder if his "ax to grind" isn't that several of those guys who used to spend so much time riveting aluminum panels to the aluminum frame in Washington are now out of a job because it won't take as many to bolt the few plastic sections together. If you Build your whole career around aluminum then it'd be hard to love CFRP when it doesn't pay the bills.

Also, Dan Rather's only problem is that he really made Republicans angry. It's not getting the story wrong, but telling the story with forged letters--for which he did apologize. If false reporting was a crime, then every anchor on Fox News would've been jailed long ago.

User currently offlineKen4556 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day ago) and read 34250 times:

Quoting Himself (Reply 21):
Also, Dan Rather's only problem is that he really made Republicans angry. It's not getting the story wrong, but telling the story with forged letters--for which he did apologize. If false reporting was a crime, then every anchor on Fox News would've been jailed long ago.

I think you mean CBS...

User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 28855 posts, RR: 74
Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day ago) and read 34224 times:

Quoting RedFlyer (Thread starter):
Dan Rather's credibility as a journalist is not much higher than a used-car salesman.

Which is, of course, how he spent more than 50 years as one of the most respected journalists in the world.  sarcastic 

Quoting N328KF (Reply 11):
he wouldn't have been fired from CBS.

Rather wasn't fired.

Quoting Himself (Reply 21):

Also, Dan Rather's only problem is that he really made Republicans angry. It's not getting the story wrong, but telling the story with forged letters--for which he did apologize. If false reporting was a crime, then every anchor on Fox News would've been jailed long ago.


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineHimself From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 62 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day ago) and read 34178 times:

Quoting Ken4556 (Reply 22):
I think you mean CBS...

No. I mean Fox News Channel.

Anyway, this isn't the place for political debate, except where it concerns civil aviation, so let's get off this subject.

User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6607 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day ago) and read 34155 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 23):
Rather wasn't fired.

Technically, yes. However, you can't tell me that he moved up his "resignation" date at his own free will.

Quoting Himself (Reply 21):
Also, Dan Rather's only problem is that he really made Republicans angry. It's not getting the story wrong, but telling the story with forged letters--for which he did apologize. If false reporting was a crime, then every anchor on Fox News would've been jailed long ago.

Not saying that other media outlets are necessarily better, just saying this one is crap. If this story shows up in the WSJ or FlightInternational or AvWeek, fine, I'll believe it. Dan Rather is not in the aviation reporting business, not in the financial reporting industry, and has a stink about him.

By the way, you are wrong about one thing. Rather stands by the documents

EDIT: Removed dead link.

[Edited 2007-09-17 23:15:47]

When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
25 Remcor : I think that depends both the nature of the composite and the nature of the crash. Composites are very complicated and unlike Aluminum, which is pret
26 CaptainX : It is interesting that if Dan Rather was investigating safety issues with the A380 construction, most here would be considering him credible. As I've
27 N328KF : Says who? I wouldn't trust any of his reporting, let alone any covering the aviation industry. If he wrote a piece on the A380, I still wouldn't take
28 RedFlyer : 50 years "as one of the most respected journalists in the world" was wiped out by one scurrilous and false report. That is why traditionally monument
29 DeltaDC9 : There is no information to base what would or would not happen AFAIK, but I dont think "shattering" is what would happen. Yes it is. CF body pannels
30 N328KF : William Shockley, anyone? So on the main subject -- is there anything to validate the experience of this purported whistleblower?
31 Post contains images Keesje : Well I for one have enough confidence in the FAA, Boeing and NTSB to know they will prevent anything unsafe being taking into service. FAA are real in
32 N328KF : For once, you and I are on the same page. Question -- is this whistleblower the same aluminum design engineer who raised his "concerns" about a year
33 CaptainX : Let's not forget about the Lightning issue that might also be a show stopper: March06 "Engineers in Everett are debating the best way to achieve that
34 Post contains links Stitch : But an F1 chassis is designed to do this to dissipate crash energy, and even then, it only does it outside the "survival cell" around the driver, whi
35 Post contains images Stickers : I'm curious... Some time ago there was a video clip that showed an airliner that was piloted by remote control and filled with dummies being delibera
36 DenverDanny : Is this a bit of a moot point anyways? The 777 and A340 have had almost no accidents. With each successive generation, planes are having less accident
37 CygnusChicago : Oh please. If you believe that you or some uninolved person can miraculously discover an engineering mistake or oversight on the 787, that the thousa
38 Justloveplanes : I think your answer is in your own account of Kubica's crash: 1) Kubica was racing within two weeks after that crash. If that car had been aluminum,
39 CygnusChicago : Well, I guess it matters in the type of accident. Let's take the A340 overrun hull loss, with 100% surivability. Would that have been the case if it
40 N328KF : Let's not dismiss whistleblowers per se. When they have a legitimate gripe, they serve a purpose. Many of them are just revenge-seekers or are trying
41 Pygmalion : which is why Boeing ran 3 tests of full scale sections of the airplane with FAA oversight. They all passed. I think we know CaptainX's real name now.
42 Texfly101 : So I take the composites course in late 06 and get to see both a detailed analysis of lightning strikes and the solution. Case closed. It must be a s
43 AirFrnt : No, sorry, after RatherGate and all of the other made up news scandals, some of us will never take Rather serious no matter what he is reporting on.
44 Stickers : Thank you Pygmalion, i was not aware of these tests. Curiosity satisfied. Stickers
45 KrisYUL : I don't think it is a matter of B knowing of an issue or not, but rather them knowing AND thinking they can overcome it. The question which is still a
46 Post contains images Legoguy : Errr, how do you make my question out to be an A v B?? It was a genuine question as to how an aircraft with a composite fuselage would react upon a c
47 Flyorski : Yeah, that is true, however the safety of the aircraft should still never be compromised. Not that I think it has been. I heard that Qantas was worri
48 Post contains links Lumberton : Here are Randy's comments WRT the recent 787 "crash" tests. How does this square with all the hyperventilating? http://boeingblogs.com/randy/
49 BAalltheway : Dan Rather is an overdramatic joke! Sounds like this particular guest is as well! These people have been making these things for nearly a century. Som
50 BAalltheway : Dan Rather is an overdramatic joke! Sounds like this particular guest is as well! These people have been making these things for nearly a century. Som
51 Remcor : I don't think the fear is unfounded. I hope it's been studied to death and shown that it's not likely to occur. It's not just that composites are saf
52 MMEPHX : It was indeed a spectacular crash and debris did scatter over a wide area. However, 2 important things to remember; 1) The car was designed to disint
53 TexL1649 : I'll go with the FAA/Boeing over Dan Rather. In fact, I'd go with OJ Simpson or Jimmy Swaggert over Danno.
54 Stitch : The real question is there even an issue in the first place to overcome? It depends on how the structure is designed to fail. Airbus has stated they
55 Tdscanuck : So? That's the normal failure mode for CFRP when taken beyond limits. During a survivable crash, the fuselage wouldn't shatter in any significant way
56 Post contains links and images Lumberton : http://boeingblogs.com/randy/
57 EbbUK : One request, let's suspend talk, claim and counter claim till we have heard the man. Then we will compare it with what Boeing says. After that...... w
58 Post contains links Azhobo : Not the same guy. THis is that guys web site. http://www.thelastinspector.com/
59 Post contains images Lightsaber : Thought... by the time the CFRP 'shatters', the passengers have met their maker anyway! Exactly. Yes, CFRP yield strength is closer to the ultimate s
60 Post contains images Flysherwood : You may be surprised at how many times we might agree on things!
61 BAalltheway : True. Wouldn't sell many frames and would take up a large part of the budget, even just as a frame gliding to a crash. If they did crash them, they c
62 Ikramerica : I think the problem is that it won't crash "the same" as the current planes. Not that it would be better or worse, but it will shred where AL would cr
63 Remcor : Yes, but yield strength isn't really what this guy is referring to. In a crash situation you'd have an extremely high rate, displacement control situ
64 Prebennorholm : F1 driver protection is made of aramide fibre, not carbon fibre. It is best known as Kevlar, but that is in fact a trade mark name for aramide fibre
65 SEPilot : He has not been respected for a long time by many, many people. Look at the ratings while he was anchor. I wouldn't consider him credible if he produ
66 Remcor : I think that's a very good point
67 Glideslope : Yes, and when an airframe impacts at a "certain" AOA the structure disintegrates in place of bending. A poorly designed version of Pyrex, and Boeings
68 Ikramerica : But even here, changes have lead to decreased safety for some crashes to protect you more for others. The side impact rules have increased the thickn
69 Tdscanuck : It's been overcome. I guess it won't be "official" for the 787 until certification but it's not considered a technical obstacle anymore. It's possibl
70 Post contains images USAF336TFS : I think you've hit the nail on the head. Dan himself is looking for the proverbial axe to grind as well. Very well said! Someone needs to tell Mr. Ra
71 Cloudy : Interesting logic. Suppose, for the sake of argument, the 787 was unsafe. It would then still be possible for the A350 to be safe because it had MORE
72 Highflier92660 : If I can read into his argument, it is similar to the old fear of the energy absorption differential of metal vs. that of composites; which is to say
73 D328 : So he says the 787 unsafe plastic plane! So then I think the A380 is unsafe with 500+ people on them, what happens when a fully loaded one of them cra
74 Boeing7E7 : I think he's full of crap. Composites don't "shatter" they fracture or compress on themselves in the case of a tubular structure such as a bike frame
75 Post contains images BlueSkys : Too True No, definately FOX. C'mon, even level headed republicans have no respect for that """"" NEWS """""" network.. Anyways, back on topic... The
76 L-188 : No his problem was that his people where making up sources and not doing their research. The end of his career was a disaster......Hell even Benidict
77 RP TPA : Could someone please explain what "Comet 1" is.......thanks
78 BlueSkys : It was the first commercially successful passenger jet, the DeHavilland Comet. The #1 refers to the first model which had square windows and caused t
79 Sh0rtybr0wn : Isnt it true, that if a plane crashes into the ground at more than 40 ft/second all passengers will die from the deceleration? The kind of impact that
80 Post contains images TheCol : Sounds like someone didn't get a raise. They wouldn't let hundreds of unsafe planes fly, period.
81 ContnlEliteCMH : I think this statement shows why so many people think CFRP vs. aluminum crashworthiness is an issue when it never could be. They think that aluminum
82 DZ09 : Well, they just have to crash test one frame to eliminate any doubts. I, for one, hope that it is not an issue, because I can't wait for the price of
83 Post contains images Lightsaber : Actually, the certification process will prove. They must be able to show survival to a pretty high G load. Quite bluntly, by the time the airframe s
84 707lvr : It may well be than Dan Rather has jumped on a completely plausible and conformable mega-scandal of a story in order to resurrect his tarnished career
85 Pygmalion : hhhmmm.. CFRP insulates and is nonsparking. Nitrogen inerted tanks too. If that A340 had been a 787, with a stiffer fuselage and CFRP... it probably
86 Post contains images Himself : Wait until the story gets to broadcast. I'm sure they're responsible enough to air both sides of the story. This whistle-blower dude will make claims
87 LHRBlueSkies : Sorry, what has this got to do with anything? Yup, the 787 / 350 will be (hopefully) safer planes by way of design, but unless they can also automati
88 Joni : He used forged documents, for which he did apologise. This displays greater integrity than certain other characters who've used forged or non-existen
89 CHRISBA777ER : Some sensationalist hack looking to make his million in fifteen mins of fame. I hope Boeing sue him back to the projects. It is an insult to everyone
90 KrisYUL : So after Rather's "mistake", you think he would just put anyone on the air? This guy probably knows something. The MD-11 was certified, and it had a n
91 Ellehammer : What is it they say about the composite wings of the 787? - They might just touch above the fuselage, if they decided to do a wing test until the brea
92 ChrisNH : This is like wailing that the highways are 'unsurvivable' if you get hit by a drunk driver. Let's keep the focus where it ought to be kept; this smack
93 CaptainX : There is a very good chance that the center fuselage will fail before the 1.5x wing failure based on analysis of how the 777 fuselage reacted during
94 SEPilot : He essentially apologized for getting caught; he still stood by the story that had NO supporting evidence. This was the culmination of a long career
95 KrisYUL : MD-11 Number built 200 Hull-loss Accidents: 5 with a total of 235 fatalities DC-10 Number built 386 Hull-loss Accidents: 26 with a total of 1261 fata
96 Scbriml : In fact it didn't. The very end smashed off, and he came to rest with his feet hanging out the end. That's how he hurt his ankle. As someone else poi
97 Post contains links Lumberton : http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...erospace/2003889663_boeing180.html By Dominic Gates. Quoted in part:
98 Fairchild24 : unfortunately then it was to late, the Comet didn´t really took of after that. I don´t know this Rathers guy but if the general public think someth
99 Post contains links and images Stitch : The Seattle Times this morning has an article on the claims: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...erospace/2003889663_boeing180.html It goes on to l
100 DAYflyer : "Dan Rather Reports"......enough said. ZERO credibility.
101 DeltaDC9 : That is just silly, the news on Fox and CNN is pretty much the same, its the editorial content you dont like on Fox. You do know the difference, righ
102 N318EA : Looks like this thread should be moved to the "Left Wing Moonbats with Bush Derangement Syndrome Forum."
103 SEPilot : Your statement was about the MD-11, not the DC-10. I agree that the DC-10 has a soiled reputation, some of it even warranted. But my earlier statemen
104 CaptainX : Boeing's new culture of firing whistle-blowers is scary. There is mounting evidence that Boeing has been taking shortcuts when it comes to design and
105 Clickhappy : But according to a summary of OSHA's findings, Boeing told investigators Weldon was fired for threatening a supervisor, specifically for stating he wa
106 Post contains images DeltaDC9 : Its like you have never worked for a major corporation. Your job goes sour, you lash out at your employer, uniformed people believe you...happens all
107 KrisYUL : The MD-11 is a re-worked DC-10. If any of the airlinesafty.com FAQ on the MD-11 is true, and given that the A330/340 and B777 have sold many times mo
108 RedFlyer : Of course, you firmly believe the same about Airbus' new products as well, right? When the next thread topic is about the A350, we can look forward t
109 DIA : Poor Dan. He's losing ratings and respect by the minute. Puppet master becomes the puppet.
110 Stitch : One man's "whistleblower" is another man's "crank". He's been in the local news off and on criticizing Boeing since his termination.[Edited 2007-09-1
111 Post contains images N328KF : Guess you've never actually seen a Dan Rather report.   Or how about his bosses? Rather's report on Bush was on 60 Minutes. This case was more compl
112 Baron52ta : I am sorry but the press don't look for the nice story because people like everyone here don't show more than a passing interest, the story that sells
113 Post contains links Tdscanuck : That wouldn't work because there are nearly infinite ways you can crash an airliner. That's why full scale crash testing is actually a bad way to get
114 Post contains images TeamAmerica : There you go again. Be specific: what unique safety test has the FAA requested that is not already completed? You keep posting things you suppose to
115 Fairchild24 : There is a big difference to be first or just do something someone else already did. Boeing has take a big step in to the future. I can imagen that t
116 DrExotica : Not quite. Dan Rather was never particularly well respected or liked - nothing on the par of a Walter Cronkite, Ed Murrow, Chet Huntley, or David Bri
117 KrisYUL : The composite civil airliners is a B first - but it could be a last as well. Airbus, being second to market, as Fairchild24 notes, means they have pl
118 SEPilot : This I agree with. I also agree that the MD-11 has had a decidedly worse safety record than the 777, A330 or A340, but a lot of it is simply bad luck
119 Post contains images Stitch : Anybody ever given a thought to the fact that because it is a new plane with new technologies, the regulatory agencies might just want to make sure it
120 DiscoverCSG : If that's true, an aircraft should never be loaded with baggage (might blow up), fuel (might catch fire), or passengers (might hijack the plane and c
121 Tdscanuck : There is something to it, in that CFRP can give back a whole lot more of the stored energy than metal. Up to the elastic limit, they will both behave
122 DeltaDC9 : Agreed, but the problem is that this kind of attitude, the pro wrestling fan kinda thing, had seeped into everything now. You have to hate the other
123 KrisYUL : The novelty of composites is not really comparable to the examples you note. If composite construction was ever brought into question, the 787 would
124 KrisYUL : Passengers need baggage, jets need fuel, and planes exist primarily to move passengers. The point on safety is not to not take ANY risks, it is not t
125 Prebennorholm : I wish we could get rid of the word "composites". "Composites" is a generic term just like "metal". It is of course nonsense to say that metal does s
126 SEPilot : This is the main issue on which I disagree with you. As I have said on other threads, a lot of the DC-10's problems came about because McDonnell, not
127 BestWestern : Boeing will not release an unsafe aircraft. End of arguement.
128 KrisYUL : Maybe not one that they KNOW to be unsafe. Knowing and being are two completely separate things. They bet the farm on the 787, they will do everythin
129 HB88 : Still the case AKAIK. However, I assume Boeing managed to get the special conditions through on the EMI protection. Before I get whipped on like a re
130 KrisYUL : Bit ironic, no? I mean, given it's made of plastic and whatnot.
131 Aerofan : Shouldn't we wait and see if there's any credibility to the story. I remember when there was talking of going into Iraq, because Sadam had WMDs. There
132 Post contains links and images GothamSpotter : Amazing...127 posts and no one has linked to the original article that goes into fine detail of this guy's credibility. http://seattletimes.nwsource.c
133 Post contains images RedFlyer : Something tells it won't be as simple as "dropping the whole composite A350 program", especially with the financial difficulties they are currently e
134 Post contains images Stitch : Same arguments were no doubt expressed nearly a century ago when Al was first started to be used on airplanes. Which should be more then safe enough.
135 Prebennorholm : Right. But this thread is discussing a very specific corner of safety, we might call it "crash-survivability". It only comes to question if a ever 78
136 KrisYUL : If Airbus was first to the gate, and questions were raised, I would no doubt be there. (The A380 sure received a lot of "analysis" even without me. I
137 Post contains images TeamAmerica : Thinking in terms of crash survivability, I'm looking at this in terms of g loads on the passengers. If the CFRP breaks and the bits go flying...ther
138 Post contains images Stitch : And yet that same defense was used to deflect and counter the "analysis" that was done to the A380 and is now starting to be done to the A350. It's a
139 Hamster : Crashes are chaos. How can you predict the outcome of a crash? Who can predict and explosion on impact or not? My friend commented that a plan is a fl
140 SEPilot : It's not as simple as that. Boeing has produced more jet transports than just about everyone else combined; and they have also achieved a very impres
141 AutoThrust : I'm sure the 787 will pass all FAA/EASA tests and will serve the Airlines well and safe. However car engeneers try not to choose rigid,hard materials
142 KrisYUL : Unlike what some people think, you can not predict the future by looking at the past. However, you can take lessons from it. When they built the Titan
143 Post contains images RedFlyer : So what are you saying, no one should fly on a plane until after a crash of that particular model occurs? Contrary to what you're trying to point out
144 KrisYUL : I agree with you. The Titanic example is simply an easy one to do since everyone is familiar with it. If questions are raised with regard to the comp
145 Fairchild24 : What i´m most afraid of when it commes to Carbon fibres hull is all dents an bruses that commes from baggagetrucks, birdstrikes and all the kind of s
146 KrisYUL : Just to be clear, I have no opinion one way or another to how the 787 will perform in real life - this is sure as hell something I am not qualified to
147 Post contains images TeamAmerica : Yes, up to the point where the CFRP breaks. In a really minor impact where the CFRP fuselage simply came to a sudden stop (no shattering) the passeng
148 Post contains images Lorgem1 : Remember that crash of a Corvette on "Worlds most something videos" when he crashed into the rear of a trailer while being chased by state troopers -
149 TheCol : I think you're forgetting that the FAA and EASA will make the final decision on whether the plane is airworthy or not.
150 Mach3 : Lets look at things closely. First Boeing has its feature tied up in the 787 Second no other aircraft manufacturer has the experience that Boeing has
151 Prebennorholm : Titanic was built with more safety related redundancy than previous ships. That should have been used to increase safety. Instead the captain chose to
152 KrisYUL : Not everyone thinks so! Although, I find it a little hard to believe that they could make flying machines but not stick a big fan at the end of a hol
153 Post contains images Clickhappy : Speaking of attention to detail, it was linked in reply 99 of this thread
154 Post contains images TeamAmerica : Not true! The designers of Titanic knew full well the limitations of the design and made no such claim. Thomas Andrews, one of the principals at buil
155 Tdscanuck : BestWestern said it right. Boeing will never knowingly betray safety, even if it's in conflict with performance. To suggest otherwise, let alone a co
156 N328KF : No production Vette is 100% carbon fiber. They have some carbon fiber components, and older models used fiberglass, which shattered easily. I don't k
157 KrisYUL : You are probably right - doesn't matter though as it was still marketed as unsinkable. In any case, I did not intend to give the impression that the
158 Post contains links Faro : FYI there was a previous, detailed thread on 787 crashworthiness in Tech/Ops at the following link: http://airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.mai
159 KrisYUL : It goes to the heart of why I don't think computer simulations and lab tests are the end-all and be-all of this story. We really only know how Al air
160 Post contains images Stitch : That was the press, not the designers or shipwrights. They're not trying to predict failure. They're trying to predict how well the plane will handle
161 Stitch : She actually had fantastic compartmentalization for her time. The only problem was they didn't go all the way to the top deck, but then she wasn't ex
162 Prebennorholm : Absolutely true, Tdscanuck. But then we have come a long way controlling fatigue since the 50'es and 60'es. Much Superior alloys are available and us
163 KrisYUL : wrong thread. filler[Edited 2007-09-18 23:44:56]
164 Pygmalion : You could drop it out of an airplane at a 1000' but what would that tell you? Crash survivablity is when it doesn't fail completely, it fails partial
165 Lumberton : OK, double hearsay time. Reading the comments on Flightblogger's latest post (which, BTW, make this discussion look tame), Mr. Scott Hamilton says he
166 KrisYUL : The problem is being first, not how much composite there is. If Airbus is the only one standing in the aftermath of the 787, they can just go back to
167 Lumberton : They could, but why not re-engine the A330 with the GENx? BTW, refer to the quote from Mr. Hamilton in which he states that Airbus is saying that Wel
168 Boeing7E7 : And when it goes north as a huge success, the A350 will follow and this clown will be a laughing stock.
169 QANTAS077 : I can see it now, all these folks on here shooting the messenger because its Dan Rather but you'll all be back here saying "I knew that would happen"
170 Post contains images Lehpron : May I play devil's advocate for a second and ask how swiftly Boeing would argue if the FAA was unsatisfied with anything due to the size of the progr
171 Azhobo : Gee, shooting two disgruntled ex-employees is more like it. Dan is a joke, who was "let go" because he didnt just wanted to report the news, but "rat
172 KrisYUL : Although I'd rather watch someone other than Rather (I liked Peter Jennings RIP), I don't think he would make the same mistake twice. He is probably t
173 Sparklehorse12 : Dan Rather got "let go" because of the Bush Whitehouse and his exit was purely political. If the Whitehouse cared to look into Fox News I am sure Dan
174 Post contains images Stitch : Honestly, I'm not following your question. Are you saying the FAA might "look the other way" because of the number of orders Boeing has secured? The
175 Post contains images Stitch : I give (most) everyone credit for (mostly) keeping this conversation in the realms of both logic and reality. But we're getting to circular arguments
176 Post contains images AutoThrust : Of course this was only a hypothetical question. I really hope this will never happen. Agreed. CFRP planes will make aviation more safe even with les
177 StarGoldLHR : I have to admit crashing in a 787 versus any other plane I reckon your chances are pretty much the same. So splintering doesnt really bother me.. I th
178 Post contains images TeamAmerica : OK...I just watched the show. There was little in the program that was not covered in the Seattle Times article. The Rather program repeatedly suggest
179 PlanesNTrains : Thank you for your "guesses". In the meantime, we can also ponder the write-offs that have occurred for otherwise survivable incidents. Like landing
180 Avek00 : That's funny, given that 1) the FAA has a dual mandate of promoting civil aviation and maintaining its safety --- goals that have conflicted in the p
181 Post contains images TeamAmerica : Belly landings are NOT routine.
182 Azhobo : Thanks for those that cannot watch. Great summary and sounds like Rather is still Rather. Cheers, HOBO
183 Post contains images 86J : I would have to agree! I don't know that you can expect to believe what you here in the news. Every major outlet seems to have an either/or mentality
184 PlanesNTrains : How come when I watch the "news" on CNN, MSNBC, FOX, et al, the news is always the same? Maybe people are confusing "news" with "commentary"? If that
185 ContnlEliteCMH : This is the second time somebody has used the Chevrolet Corvette to illustrate a point. And it's a bad illustration. The Corvette is not made of fibe
186 86J : Yes, you are completely right. The "news" is pretty much mostly junk these days, unless there really is something critical going on in the world. See
187 Baroque : Such as the recommendation for rear facing passenger seats made about 50 years ago following a crash with a UK plane.
188 Post contains images Dougloid : Jeez....got to agree with you here Keesje....dude is a flake....what in the hell is this world coming to? Is this the dawn of a new alliance between
189 Post contains links and images WingedMigrator : If you only knew how wrong you are about this... passive safety is a huge design driver, especially in the USA. It's one of the main reasons we don't
190 Jasond : Whilst testing is obviously very rigorous its really only about 'stress' testing and very little of it 'in-situ'. Short of actually crashing a 787 rem
191 XT6Wagon : People can and do survive 90G impacts all the time. Its all in the DURATION of the g forces that decides where "you might die" window of g-forces sta
192 PlanesNTrains : Conversely, many seem to be convinced that something is wrong, when they have little or no evidence to support them. And for myself, it is not that I
193 Iwok : Yep, this guy got caught out and is pissed. I just did a patent and web search on this guy and basically nothing shows up. So for a self proclaimed e
194 DeltaDC9 : The Titanic could stay afloat with any two of the compartments flooded -- leading Shipbuilding magazine to devote a special issue to this new enginee
195 Post contains images Lumberton : It appears that this stunning revelation ( ) by this so-called "whistleblower" has had the predictable impact on Boeing's stock: none at all. The stoc
196 Post contains images Baroque : Yes it is, but that might be due more to the well known aerodynamic effect called the Bernanke Lift. This gives more lift in the short run than the C
197 Lumberton : I thought the "Bernake Lift" carried things aloft yesterday? Ironically, BA was down due to an analyst lowering the projected target price from aroun
198 Caminito : Not Bernanke! . Yesterday Tuesday, after retreating initially over 2%, it closed nearly unchanged (still underperforming the market), even before Rat
199 Post contains images Baroque : I just refuse to argue with an American about which is today and which yesterday!! It is so difficult when I am already so far into your tomorrow tha
200 Lumberton : It's the Rather effect!
201 Michlis : I don't think Boeing's legal department would let a seriously flawed product reach the marketplace. Boeing's general counsel is pretty gutsy and tell
202 Post contains links Lumberton : Scott Hamilton's commentary here should put an end to the hyperventilating from those desperately hoping that the 787 is unsafe. Bottom line: Airbus a
203 TeamAmerica : That was true in the early years of operation...much less so now (or so I'm told). The important point is that they avoided weather over concern abou
204 SEPilot : Now if that fellow who succeeded in getting seawater to burn can turn it into airplane fuel, we might make progress on this one. But as long as we ne
205 Access-Air : Okay, here is a simple way to test to see whether this plane will shatter or not.......Do an unmanned controlled crash to see just what happens in suc
206 TeamAmerica : Beyond the economic and practical unreality of the idea...exactly what "situation" would you test? Each airliner crash is unique. There is no set of
207 DeltaDC9 : To further that point, every time there is a crash, the likelyhood statistically of the same scenario is reduced, therefore "typical" is really just
208 KrisYUL : A340 goes flying off the end of a rain-soaked runway, down a 15 metre embankment and into a muddy gully, catches fire. Is this survivable? In 2004, I
209 Braybuddy : I don't think I'll really care if the plane that kills me is built of aluminium or composites.
210 Post contains images TeamAmerica : Nonsensical. You build a 787, stick it on a track and speed it up...to what speed?...and crash it...into what? It IS complicated - you cannot omit th
211 Baroque : It was not so much the fuel I was worrying about SEP although there was considerable research into lowering the flammability of fuel some years ago t
212 Tdscanuck : Belly landings and nose gear collapse are not routine. Tire blowouts and ramp rash aren't unusual. However, there are virtually zero circumstances wh
213 KrisYUL : Why not do exactly the AF A340 runway over-run? We know what speed it was going, we know it was dramatic, we know it is survivable and we know that s
214 DeltaDC9 : There are a million ways to crash an airliner, the nonsensical thing is to assume that testing one or two of them will give you any relevant amount o
215 Flyorski : I think you are misinterpreting my comment.
216 KrisYUL : You would collect a huge amount of data on how the airframe copes under unconventional stress!
217 DeltaDC9 : Or it can be modeled in computer simulations under thousands or even millions of scenarios collecting exponentially more data based on the properties
218 Stitch : Fortunately, manufacturers of airline interior fixtures are moving to more fire-resistant/fire-retardant materials that also do not give off (as) tox
219 KrisYUL : How do you collect data from a computer simulation? The simulation is based on data you already have and are then able to manipulate.
220 Access-Air : So do you mind telling me what YOUR Better Idea would be????......Mine may be a costly idea but , its better to "waste" an airplane rather than have
221 DeltaDC9 : That is not valid in any way. How do you think NASA knew that broken tile would not affect the space shuttle? Material tests on a small scale, and co
222 Boeing7E7 : Bull. They're based in the midwest. You think they're not going to launch a 24-36 hour bombing mission because of Lightning? That wasn't even worth t
223 Post contains links RIXrat : Speaking about Dan Rather, this from the New York Times. For further info, all I can give you is www.nyt.com. Rather Files $70 Million Lawsuit Against
224 Post contains images TeamAmerica : Lightning can and does strike out of the clear blue sky. The B-2 bomber is not restricted from flying in any conditions that an airliner would. You c
225 DeltaDC9 : Near tornado alley no less. Its not that rain hurts the coating, rain defeats the properties of the coating and drastically reduces the overall steal
226 Grantcv : I've unfortunately had to work with a number of individuals like Mr. Weldon seems to be. Once brilliant engineers that have found their expertise side
227 Post contains images TeamAmerica : Interesting - I had a similar experience with an EE who detailed exactly why DSL could not work due to the limitation of common copper phone wire. Ac
228 Post contains images RedFlyer : Sounds like TV news anchors suffer from the same problem as they get older.
229 Caminito : All very true. But no to forget the temptation presented by Publications, TV+Radio Chains and unscrupulous Independents in search of whistle -blowers
230 Post contains links BizFlyer : I think, that all those, who question Mr. Weldon at all, should forget about Dan Rather and remember that one should collect information before blasti
231 TeamAmerica : If THAT was the issue, then the recent drop test should have put it to rest. I watched the actual Dan Rather Reports program, and Mr. Weldon did not
232 Kaneporta1 : I did not read the thread from the beginning so I'm sorry if this has already been mentioned, but how can a high G impact be an issue when, since the
233 Tdscanuck : If it were a 787 instead, you couldn't make everything else the same. You couldn't recreate that crash with a 787 (or even another A340). It does not
234 TeamAmerica : Depends on what you mean by "at the airport". DFW operates with lightning all about...nothing unusual about it. They'd need to close the airport most
235 StarGoldLHR : Thats an arguement I should put to the government so we can all retire at 40.
236 Avek00 : This fact is not forgotten -- it's just of limited relevance because the FAA has certified commercial aircraft containing fatal deisgn flaws (whether
237 Stitch : And EASA did the same with the A320 and her FBW control system even after losing a few frames with all hands. That is one of the problems of having t
238 Caminito : " target=_blank>http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABP...9.pdf That's the problem: to "understand Mr. Weldon's letter"! Obviously, I (and probably you,
239 Ikramerica : Well rather considers himself a victim and a whistleblower and is now suing CBS for $70 million because he was a "scapegoat" during the whole forged
240 USAF336TFS : I'm glad I'm not the only one who suspected that he has a very definite bias... Judging from the sentiment of most respondents, I'd say that he'll be
241 Post contains links CaptainX : REPLAY ONLINE: http://www.hd.net/drr231.html I don't find Rather to be a crank, and I find the people interviewed to be intelligent and professional.
242 Post contains images TeamAmerica : By all means, call Boeing and tell them what you saw on TV. I'm sure they have no idea how flawed the Dreamliner is, and will be thankful for your ad
243 Ikramerica : He still hasn't replied to one thread that wasn't about the 787 since joining days before the rollout, nor has he ever provided one shred of evidence
244 Post contains links ContnlEliteCMH : I have more than a cursory familiarity with autmobile construction. I know that unibody construction means the body is the frame, though that is an o
245 Baroque : Indeed, but the progress seems to be glacial. Another problem is knowing how flammable the interior of the plane you board might be. Also I wonder ho
246 PlanesNTrains : Boy, if that comment doesn't say everything we need to know about you, I don't know what does. -Dave
247 Post contains links CaptainX : Take a look at what happened to the 777 center fuse section during the 1.5x load test, and consider how the 787 center fuse would react being that it
248 BizFlyer : Did I get this right? Captain X is supposed to be Mr. Weldon? Well that would be a real nonsense, as according to Captain X´ profile he is maximum 55
249 Bennett123 : There are IMO four issues here. 1. Use of a test airframe. The amount of useful data will be far less if the test airframe is not representative. Unle
250 Stitch : Mr. Weldon's letter evidently isn't the only thing people haven't been reading on this thread... It has been clearly stated that the top of the frame
251 Pygmalion : All aircraft constructed after the early ninties have a fire-resistant interior... hell, anything inside the pressure vessel of the fuselage must pas
252 DeltaDC9 : The C4 was in fact a unibody and the fiberglass hood did in fact saved my life, so take your attitude and shove it. That by the way was the opinion o
253 Post contains links CaptainX : Boeing's bogus drop test. http://boeingblogs.com/randy/images/787-drop-test_sm.jpg This picture clearly shows only the lower half of only one barrel w
254 DeltaDC9 : I think we all know what is bogus, and it aint the drop test. I seem to remember a cartoon titled "Mr Bogus". I had no idea it was based on a true st
255 XT6Wagon : Imagine if the plane went off at a angle and rolled.... Or even had fire start on both sides at once. Good engineering supports good luck, but good l
256 Post contains images TeamAmerica : Keep digging that hole, LieutenantX. With each post you make it clearer that you have no idea what you are talking about. Even Mr. Weldon did not sug
257 LY4XELD : Do you just ignore reality? Maybe if you spent half as much energy you spend spewing unsubstantiated claims for the sake of getting a rise out of peo
258 PlanesNTrains : Which, of course, just might be what many are saying. There have been folks in this thread who are on the inside who have refuted what CaptainX has s
259 Caminito : This only if you assume that the age range as indicated in the profile is real.
260 TSS : Both are built on the same chassis, which is only monocoque from the firewall aft. The engine, transmission, and assorted components forward of the f
261 Stitch : And yet that structure will then be reinforced as necessary to restore the original integrity so as it has been on every other passenger-to-freighter
262 Bennett123 : Stitch I am surprised that an open top with bracing will replicate the load and load bearing characteristics of a complete barrel. However, I am conte
263 Post contains links Bennett123 : http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19890719-1 Over 60% of the people on this horrendous crash survived, I think that this indicates the
264 Bennett123 : One further question that I forgot to ask to about drop tests is does in involve literally liftinf the plane/fuselage and dropping it. If so, when was
265 Tdscanuck : Relevant to this: -CFRP is a manufacturing technique for a family of materials, not single thing. You can make it rigid, flexible, strong, weak, etc.
266 XT6Wagon : Please stop posting this garbage. They will test the 787, and it will pass. The FAA doesn't CARE if the 787 has the barrel magicly explode at 151%, o
267 GBan : I'd agree so far, not knowing any of the people involved before reading this thread. The whole video (including the people interviewed) makes a profe
268 Fairchild24 : I have a question regarding CFRP, We know that old Airliners recycles as soda-pop cans, And AL is farily reusible, e.g 1 new can for 1 old can. What w
269 Post contains links Bennett123 : Tdscanuck I know that the repair was botched. What I was not clear about is the relative strength of the repaired section. I know that no 2 crashes ar
270 Stitch : The beauty of the 787 and A350 is that they will not start scrapping them after 20-30 years. The CFRP airframes of these planes only fatigue so far,
271 DeltaDC9 : I actually installed fiberglass fenders in the 80s on my 79 Camaro to save weight, and they cracked from the stress after a year or so at the top of
272 JayinKitsap : I recall a Boeing press release a few years ago on the 7E7 on this subject. I didn't have a chance to look up though. The gist of the discussion woul
273 Bennett123 : Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 262): There are a large number of aircraft which have made belly landing or had undercarriage failures with substancial numb
274 RedFlyer : If they can grind it up then they can put it to other uses. One use that comes to my mind is using it to augment road asphalt, in the same way as gla
275 Post contains images TeamAmerica : And just how far do we go to minimize such consequences? I keep coming back to this - if we consider this essential they why not go all the way and r
276 BizFlyer : PlanesNTrains, I do NOT reserve the allencompassing knowledge for myself. Yes, it is a possibility, that even the age on the profile of any member of
277 DeltaDC9 : I agree, 100% reliability requirements, multiple redundant critical systems, thorough maintenance and training, proper regulations and the like are w
278 Post contains images CygnusChicago : Hopefully you see what A380 surporters had to put up with over the past year, often from your posts. Hard to take when the shoe is on the other foot,
279 Caminito : It is obvious that the arguments against composites are consequently against Boeing AND Airbus. So. it was only a matter of hours that Airbus had to j
280 CaptainX : Did you know that a lightning strike on the 787 will leave a baseball-sized hole, where on a Alum A/C it would be a pinpoint-sized hole? Source: BOEIN
281 Tdscanuck : You can use it for all kinds of stuff. CFRP, once it's cured, it pretty much inert for environmental purposes. Boeing and Airbus have talked about th
282 Stitch : Good for the FAA. Nice to see them on top of things. I have full confidence Boeing will pass all 17 with maximum performance.
283 N229NW : This seems a valid point to me. If the design of the plane makes it less likely to crash in the first place, then that is a valid tradeoff for what m
284 Post contains images TeamAmerica : I call BS on that, but then all you ever do is toss the bomb - you never follow up. Post a link for a change, SargentX. Golly...you mean the FAA is d
285 Caminito : By the way: does the size of such hole, after a lightning penetrates (can this even happen?) still important?
286 Tdscanuck : Show your source. That's been public for several years. Lightning can penetrate. The size of the hole does matter because a baseball sized hole might
287 ContnlEliteCMH : The C4 had a unitized body, yes. But it was not truly a unibody car. The unitized body was mounted to a "backbone chassis" comprised of roughly 100 s
288 Stitch : True, but it is impractical to crash a dozen or a score of every commercial airliner model in service or in development to measure the effects of tha
289 PlanesNTrains : Definitely don't assume the worst of people, UNLESS they give you some reason to question them. While you may read his posts differently, many of us
290 Post contains images WingedMigrator : I just finished watching the Dan Rather piece (finally). I highly recommend watching it, if only to familiarize oneself with the bone of contention, n
291 Post contains links Joni : I've sometimes wondered about this as well, all metals have an ultimate scrap value (which is rising as demand for metals is increasing). I wonder ho
292 BizFlyer : Well, I thought, I had this topic finished. But when you tell me, that Quote Tdscanuck in message #281: They're coherent and make sense in that they'r
293 Post contains images SEPilot : Would that by any chance have been Al Gore? Totally agree. Money spent in making planes survivable after a crash is a clear case of diminishing retur
294 DeltaDC9 : Thats not a source, thats a word. Link please, because I have to wonder how all those existing CFRP planes are still flying with holes like that bein
295 Post contains images SEPilot : Statistically, if you stay on a 777 and never get off you'll live forever-or at least until it gets scrapped. By the way, just noticed your signature
296 Fairchild24 : Don´t say that, I beleve approx. 150 people survived the Souix City DC-10 crach. and that video is amazing ,that some one at all survived is a good
297 Post contains images TeamAmerica : That DC-10 was destroyed on impact. Some passengers survived because the sections of the aircraft they were in skidded or rolled to a stop (no sudden
298 SEPilot : You miss my point; those 150 people are still going to die (some probably already have). Even assuming that all of those 150 would have been killed i
299 Post contains images Fairchild24 : Well we don´t know how much the CFRP Airplane will enable the Airliners to reduce fairs yet, there was probably been some estimate but no real figur
300 DeltaDC9 : Since the problem was fan disk shrapnel penetrating the outer skin.....I have a feeling it may have prevented the disaster in the first place by not
301 Post contains links JayinKitsap : Speaking of a belly skid with CFRP, the attached link shows the result of a B1-B skidding 7,500 feet on the runway. Yes, its a military plane but the
302 SEPilot : Airlines sooner or later have to make money to survive or they'll go bankrupt. In spite of publicity stunts the overall fares must reflect costs. CFR
303 TeamAmerica : Then why not demand a titanium fuselage? Where do you draw the line in cost vs "better chance to survive"? You do realize that the B-1B is essentiall
304 Post contains links Lumberton : Some very interesting and informative comments on this blog, with a link to photos of the B-1B belly landing in Diego Garcia. http://fleetbuzz.wordpre
305 SEPilot : Exactly. I believe that it will be.
306 Flybyguy : I wholly agree. If we were to prepare for every contingency... every problem, then society as we know it will grind to a halt. I watched the Dan Rath
307 Post contains images Fairchild24 : I agree this is a tuff call just say I realy hope and I think Boeing will pull this one out CFRP will be at least as good as AL. I cross my fingers f
308 DeltaDC9 : That plane was repaired at a cost of 8 million bucks, would an aluminum plane fared as well? So much for ramp rash not being repairable on a CFRP pla
309 DeltaDC9 : The primary structural member of the B-1 bomber is a single lengthwise beam of boron fiber construction.
310 Columbia107 : Do you know Captain X that: 1. the 787 is not the first composite aircraft to fly or deep with the issue of electrostatic energy. 2. he Hawker Beechc
311 Caminito : As we all know, the main players in the stock market pay big money to the most qualified analysts to assess the credibility of persons or institutions
312 Tdscanuck : Well, I've done several posts on this topic on mulitple threads, so you can try searching on my username and "787" but, to sum up: Contention: The br
313 Post contains images Lehpron : How many other industry incidents occured where an item was popular and if something was wrong with it, the 'wrong' is either a non-issue or swept to
314 BizFlyer : Tdscanuck, thanks for your message #312. I have come to the following conclusion for myself: The topic is very complex and my knowledge in relation to
315 Bennett123 : I will follow bizflyer. But first a final question. What does the drop test acheive. A vertical drop of 15 foot with no forward component seems more o
316 Post contains images TeamAmerica : All the more reason to preserve those beauties! The drop test is not intended as a real-world crash simulation. The manufacturers built a software mo
317 NADC10Fan : And I look forward to that test, as I am sure it will prove as dramatic as the 777's. A question I am hoping you can answer - everyone's favorite gre
318 Tdscanuck : I don't have any idea what prompted that claim other (aside from the usual, more like reasons). It doesn't even read like normal engineering, since d
319 TeamAmerica : And...does it matter what happens to the fuselage? By definition, the test goes to 150% of the forces that the wing can be exposed to in real-world f
320 Tdscanuck : That's not strictly true. All primary structural elements (fuselage included) have to be good to 150% of the maximum load expected in real-world serv
321 Drahnreb : Be aware of the software!!!
322 BizFlyer : Early in the film it is stated and shown, that the skin of the fuselage begins to ripple due to buckling forces. I think that is what is referred to.
323 Stitch : Depends on the CFRP's material properties. You can make CFRP that will buckle. You can make CFRP that will shatter. You can make CFRP that will not y
324 Caminito : I must return showing the stock market performance of Boeing, as I am am baffled by it. In spite of the Rather effect we are discussing here, the not
325 Stitch : Unlikely. The Market is just not hung-up on it as much as we are at this time. Should Boeing formally announce a six month delay before delivery of L
326 SEPilot : As I have said many times before, if we rely on the government to make planes safe we'd better increase our coffin output. What makes airliners as sa
327 Post contains images Ikramerica : The market isn't full of Boeing bashers who will believe anything a disgruntled employee says even when a disgraced journalist is the one telling it
328 Caminito : There are two issues here: The first I was addressing in my post was not why the stock did not suffer because of the Rather maneuver, but why it doub
329 HowSwedeitis : I worked in laboratory for Toray Composites of America, which is the main supplier of composites to Boeing. I have seen first hand what happens when a
330 DeltaDC9 : You need to remember that while the 787 project is a huge undertaking by Boeing, and there is considerable risk involved, it is one of many many thin
331 Caminito : I agree, but as you can see in my same Reply 324 ("In spite of the Rather effect we are discussing here, the not silenced B787 delay concerns, the at
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