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Do Controllers Purposly Do This?  
User currently offlineJetJock22 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 3 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7631 times:

Ok, I am sitting here at work and this has got me hot under the collar. This is the advisory text taken directly from ATCSCC:

MESSAGE: CTL ELEMENT: JFK
ELEMENT TYPE: APT
ADL TIME: 2027Z
DELAY ASSIGNMENT MODE: DAS
ARRIVALS ESTIMATED FOR: 18/2027Z - 19/0159Z
CUMULATIVE PROGRAM PERIOD: 18/2027Z - 19/0159Z
PROGRAM RATE: 56/36/36/36/36/40
FLT INCL: ALL CONTIGUOUS US DEP
DEP SCOPE: (NOWEST+CZY_AP) ZFW ZAU ZMP ZKC ZME ZID ZMA ZHU ZJX ZOB
ZBW ZTL ZNY ZDC
ADDITIONAL DEP FACILITIES INCLUDED:
CANADIAN DEP ARPTS INCLUDED: CYHZ CYOW CYUL CYYZ
DELAY ASSIGNMENT TABLE APPLIES TO: ZNY
MAXIMUM DELAY: 177
AVERAGE DELAY: 68.8
IMPACTING CONDITION: WEATHER / WIND
COMMENTS: JFK RWY CFG LND 13R DEPT 13L

Now, I know I am about to start a war, but some one please explain to me why the delay reason is wind. According to our pilotbrief, the wind is out of the southeast at 9MPH. There have been days when its gusting to over 15mph and they don't issue a ground delay.

So the question is, are the controllers purposly issuing random ground delays like this to convey their disdain at the FAA and the govt, or is it legitimately due to the wind? And before anyone does it, I will save you the trouble and flame myself  flamed 

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2264 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (7 years 3 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7518 times:

Quoting JetJock22 (Thread starter):
So the question is, are the controllers purposly issuing random ground delays like this to convey their disdain at the FAA and the govt, or is it legitimately due to the wind? And before anyone does it, I will save you the trouble and

Point one, don't flame yourself. Well, at least buy yourself a drink first.

Point two, "the controllers" aren't doing anything here. ATCSCC is an FAA management function that allegedly makes these decisions after consultation with users(read Airlines). They then inflict these decisions on the controllers, pilots/FAs, and passengers.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineJETSET From Canada, joined Jun 2001, 353 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 3 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7454 times:

Here's the answer ...

PROGRAM RATE: 56/36/36/36/36/40


The ATCSCC lowers the arrival rate to favour departures to avoid grid-lock.
An arrival rate of 36/hr is basically landing 1 rwy, therfore they can depart on two.

Rgds/Jetset


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21852 posts, RR: 55
Reply 3, posted (7 years 3 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7444 times:

Quoting JetJock22 (Thread starter):
COMMENTS: JFK RWY CFG LND 13R DEPT 13L

That's peculiar - normally it's departing 13R and landing 13L.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 3 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7406 times:

Quoting JetJock22 (Thread starter):
So the question is, are the controllers purposly issuing random ground delays like this to convey their disdain at the FAA and the govt,

Nope... As SPREE34 and JETSET have noted, ATCSCC is management, and the program rates suggest it's actually a volume problem.

Quoting JetJock22 (Thread starter):
or is it legitimately due to the wind?

Not that I can see, but I do have note that "WEATHER/WIND" would be just one line item above "VOLUME" if the program used to generate these ATCSCC messages utilized a "pull-down" menu. Perhaps the wrong "reason" was clicked upon?


User currently offlineADXMatt From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 954 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 years 3 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7354 times:

I'm not familiar with JFK but at Newark the RWY configuration affects the airport capacity.

Using the 22's at EWR and Rwy 11 has the best arrival rate.

When EWR is on the 4's and 29 it is lower.

Loose 11/29 and on rwy 4.... forget about it.

This is due to the conflicts with JFK/LGA arrivals when on RWY 4

JFK may have similar problems when they are on 13's? With 9kts of wind the tailwind component may make using another rwy configuration not possible.


User currently offlineJetJock22 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 3 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7260 times:

Thanks guys. I was just wondering because I have heard "theories" from pilots who say controllers can manipulate these things when they want to prove a point so i was just asking to merely gain some info.

User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 3 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7208 times:

Quoting JetJock22 (Reply 6):
I have heard "theories" from pilots

They have many of them, but seeing as how they spend about just as much time in an ATC facility as they do in their airline's dispatch office (i.e. "none"), those theories can often be a major disconnect with reality.


User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2264 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (7 years 3 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7166 times:

Quoting JetJock22 (Reply 6):
I have heard "theories" from pilots who say controllers can manipulate these things when they want to prove a point s

Good way to get fired. Remember, everything the controller is saying on landlines and radio is recorded, and every keystroke or movement of the slew ball is in the computer memory where a replay can be done.

The controllers really don't have the time to mess with people.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineFalcon flyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1332 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 3 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7160 times:

Quoting JetJock22 (Reply 6):
Thanks guys. I was just wondering because I have heard "theories" from pilots who say controllers can manipulate these things when they want to prove a point so i was just asking to merely gain some info.

Many pilots flatter themselves into thinking that they understand the ATC system. To suggest that controllers are sitting at their scopes saying "let's see how we can screw with this guy" is not only ignorant but just plain stupid. As previously stated, some of these guys should visit a tower or ARTCC before sharing their "theories".



My definition of cool ? Not trying so hard to be cool.
User currently offlineIahflyr From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (7 years 3 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6942 times:

Quoting Falcon flyer (Reply 9):
Many pilots flatter themselves into thinking that they understand the ATC system. To suggest that controllers are sitting at their scopes saying "let's see how we can screw with this guy" is not only ignorant but just plain stupid. As previously stated, some of these guys should visit a tower or ARTCC before sharing their "theories".

That is so very well put. I believe that pilot recurrent training for airlines should include a visit to tower, approach and center for a day or at minimum 1/2 at each place......talk to the line folks (not management) and get a feel for what goes on inside the facility trenches.

I know that the jumpseat ability which has been gone since 9/11 should be re-instated NOW. That communication which was at least available is sorely missing and with advances in aircraft technology quite a few controllers have no clue to what function an FMC plays on the flight deck let alone what a crew is doing when given certain clearances.

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 8):
Good way to get fired. Remember, everything the controller is saying on landlines and radio is recorded, and every keystroke or movement of the slew ball is in the computer memory where a replay can be done.

Replay will hurt!



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineTrnsWrld From United States of America, joined May 1999, 959 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 3 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6833 times:

I dont post much on this site anymore but this thread caught my attention. First off, I wanna say that I am an Air Traffic Controller at Chicago Center. I work in the East Area we are mainly an east bound Chicago departure area and obviously overflights at the high altitude sector. I am not going to get into much detail but I would NEVER delay an aircraft just to prove a point or for the heck of it (nor would anyone else I work with). We simply follow the rules that we are given. If the board is showing 40MIT for EWR (which it usually does everyday) that means I must have 40 miles lateral seperation before Cleveland Center will take the handoff. If it means I have to vector an aircraft I have to do it. Oh and not to mention me delaying an aircraft requires more work on my part which in this business you really do not want more work than you need especially when it gets busy. One last thing is that as a controller sometimes we dont even know what the delay is. If I hold an aircraft obviously they usually want to know why. Unfortunately sometimes their guess is as good as mine unless the supervisor tells me.
Hopefully this helps clear things up

James
ZAU


User currently offlineTCFC424 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 517 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (7 years 3 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 6765 times:

I don't know how to read that brief posted by the OP, but I recently was dismayed that our flights were delayed from ORD (screwing up our whole system) because of weather. I pulled up weather in ORD on my phone, and found no storms, and light winds on the ground. I shared this with my coworkers who quickly pulled up aviation weather on APOLLO. Winds were VERY high in the upper levels, thus the delays.

Don;t know if this helps, but I guess you can't judge a book by its cover?


User currently offlineADXMatt From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 954 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 years 3 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6663 times:

Quoting JetJock22 (Reply 6):
Thanks guys. I was just wondering because I have heard "theories" from pilots who say controllers can manipulate these things when they want to prove a point so i was just asking to merely gain some info.

I've heard this also. But not that any 1 controller will delay a flight but that the sector or tracon will reduce the amount of traffic they will accept or add miles in trail that isn't necessarily needed to keep the planes further apart. i.e. reduce capacity. This was when the controllers were getting auto write ups when an a/c became a foot or two to close and the a/c computer would download the "snitch"

I think the "snitch" program was turned off.... but not positive.

The controllers I think do a heck of a job with what they have to work with. The USA should be the ones to lead the world with the best and newest technology out there. We are falling behind quickly.

If we ever get a next gen atc system that can "talk" to the A/C FMC and do projectory type separation we will increase capacity. A/C today are equipped but the ATC is so far behind our technology. In some other countries the ATC computer would tell the A/C FMC to cross a fix at a precise time and flight level. When the captain accepts the FMC will figure out the trjectory, speed, decent rate etc to cross that fix precisely at that time and altitude. Let the A/C computer do the work.


User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2264 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (7 years 3 months 22 hours ago) and read 6389 times:

Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 13):
I think the "snitch" program was turned off.... but not positive.

Nope. That would be Soooooo plastered all over the media by six o'clock, and the NTSB would have a congressional fit.

Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 13):
add miles in trail that isn't necessarily needed

Controllers can't do that. Any restrictions are issued by management via Traffic Management Units and/or coordinated through ATCSCC.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineJetJock22 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 3 months 20 hours ago) and read 5680 times:

Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 13):
The controllers I think do a heck of a job with what they have to work with. The USA should be the ones to lead the world with the best and newest technology out there. We are falling behind quickly.

Couldn't agree more.


User currently offlineATCT From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2345 posts, RR: 38
Reply 16, posted (7 years 3 months 20 hours ago) and read 5467 times:

Quoting Iahflyr (Reply 10):
know that the jumpseat ability which has been gone since 9/11 should be re-instated NOW

I agree with my white-eyed, pale tracon brethren :P. Most controllers have little to no knowledge of what goes on up front in an aircraft and vice versa. With the jumpseat program we could ask questions and even better, see with our own eyes the problems and quirks of the system. The pilots then could ask us questions regarding flow rates, what would ATC prefer them to do ti get out quicker. etc. etc. etc.

I dont know where to start, but IAHFLYR, we should get that ball rolling. I know most (if not all) of my pilot friends agree that the jumpseat program should be re-instated.

ATCT



"The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing." - Walt Disney
User currently offlineDrewwright From United States of America, joined May 2001, 621 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (7 years 3 months 19 hours ago) and read 4396 times:

To echo the above sentiments, ATC and pilots alike try to make the best of what little there is to work with. I am reminded of the saying, "The beatings will continue until morale improves!"
We are all simply victims of this archaic air traffic system and unfortunately, pilots visiting towers/ARTCCs and controllers jumpseating around the system will do little to solve these problems. Besides, pilots are inherently boneheaded and egocentric.  Wink I, for one, respect and appreciate all the controllers I deal with, especially Mr. Happy down in IAH!
The air traffic system is long overdue for an overhaul and until that happens, these delays will only get worse.


User currently offlineHikesWithEyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 816 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (7 years 3 months 18 hours ago) and read 3488 times:

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 7):
They have many of them, but seeing as how they spend about just as much time in an ATC facility as they do in their airline's dispatch office (i.e. "none"), those theories can often be a major disconnect with reality.

Most excellent comment.



First, benzene in my Perrier, and now this!
User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2264 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (7 years 3 months 16 hours ago) and read 2463 times:

Quoting Drewwright (Reply 17):
Besides, pilots are inherently boneheaded and egocentric.

A reason they and controllers should have to visit each others territory. The two are more alike than some will admit. Well, maybe for ATC, not the boneheaded so much, but egocentric? Oh hell yes!





Did I just confess something?  scratchchin 



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 3 months 16 hours ago) and read 2024 times:

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 19):
The two are more alike than some will admit.

Not to mention the dispatchers. Controllers and dispatchers were one and the same back in the non-radar 1930s, as dispatchers sent position reports via teletype and telephone, and dispatch offices also communicated with one another. eventually (with the 1938 Act, IIRC) the traffic separation and operational control functions were separated, with ATC going to the CAA (and later FAA), and operational control remaining an airline function.


User currently offlineMach3 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 87 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 3 months 15 hours ago) and read 1620 times:

The FAA will not be overhauled until someone has a brain burp that new management is needed and has the cajones to get rid of the old farts waiting just for retirement and flexing their ego's in dictatorial rule. Being a controller in the pressure cooker called ATC is hell with morons in charge. My hat goes of to each and every controller for their dedication to keeping us SAFE.

Without a doubt you can blame FAA management for stalling improvements, not knowing how to implement the improvements already in the pipeline, and not being willing to improve the antiquated programs in place at this tired old system. Its ready to collapse very very soon.

Oh and you can in some respect blame the airlines for not pushing for the changes and not naming names of the FAA management who are dragging their heels at changing. The airlines are scared of retaliation from the FAA management if they do open their mouths. Just remember the FAA own the ticket books and uses the fear of fines against the airlines!



If you pull on the Tiger's tail, better be prepared for him to bite you in the ARSE
User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2264 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (7 years 3 months 10 hours ago) and read 1459 times:

Quoting Mach3 (Reply 21):
get rid of the old farts waiting just for retirement and flexing their ego's in dictatorial rule.

Problem is, most of them have been eligible for retirement for several years. They just hang around to up their retirement pay. R.I.P. Retired In Position.

Too bad their pay didn't freeze along with the controllers. They'd be bailing out left and right.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineDispatcher From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 254 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (7 years 3 months 10 hours ago) and read 1418 times:

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 7):
They have many of them, but seeing as how they spend about just as much time in an ATC facility as they do in their airline's dispatch office (i.e. "none"), those theories can often be a major disconnect with reality.

Amen to that. Funny story here, captain walks into the office demanding to know why he was not advised to stay in the hotel due to ORD ATC delays. I informed him it we didn't like holding crews in the hotel for ATC delays due to their dynamic nature, ie, the wheels up time could dramatically improve, then we would be left with a delay due to the crew not being in place. I was then berated by this fellow who went on to inform me that he had been flying for 30 years and had never once seen an ATC delay change for the better. I responded that I see that happen all the time at which point he started rambling on about his nocturnal cycles and how any interruption of those could be an issue to flight safety and on and on. He then demanded that he be allowed to go back to the hotel and that if this happened again he would file a flight safety report. I again, as pleasantly as I could, half not trying to break out in laughter and half not standing up to strangle him told him that I would authorize no such thing and that I would never tell a crew to stay in the hotel for an ATC delay. This went on for some time with the tension level rising until he finally realized I was not going to back down and he left the room in a huf. About ten minutes later, the ATC desk let us know they had negotiated a near on time departure for the flight. Cool. I went to the other room and let him know his delay had pretty much been cancelled and that he needed to get out to the jet for an on time departure. He never even acknowledged my presence and the poor F.O. had to step in and say ok. So off to the jet they go. 5 minutes before block out, ORD goes to a 1st tier ground stop with an update in one hour. One hour goes by and the update says one more hour and they will update. Happens again with another update in 1 hour. The crew has now been on the jet for three hours, gets mad and says 'we're coming inside'. So inside they come with the captain demanding a sleep room. Off he goes to the sleep room. 10 minutes later, just as he's getting laid down the ground stop is cancelled - they are free to depart. Some times there is justice!

Don't misunderstand here, most of our pilots are great guys and I have no problems working with them, but this got really got what he had coming to him.


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