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BA Withdraws From HRE And DTW!  
User currently offlineLovinitflyboy From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 116 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 12738 times:

Just saw this on ba.com:

British Airways has announced it is to withdraw services between London Heathrow and Harare from the beginning of the Winter 2007 schedule which starts on Sunday 28 October 2008.

and:

British Airways has announced it is to withdraw services between London Heathrow and Detroit from the beginning of the Summer 2008 schedule which starts on Sunday 30 March 2008.

I know DTW has been talked about, but this was the first i head about Harare!

I guess this will free us some slots at LHR and 767's as well, so where to next?

80 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLHR777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 12680 times:

So, does that leave BA LHR-ORD connecting to AA to DTW?

User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5557 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 12680 times:

UK's CAA reported that DTW-LHR traffic was only 6719 pax in June, down 38% from the year before. BA's flight, the only one from LHR, was apparently a money loser; and, assuming NW gets a few LHR slots for next March, it would continue to lose money unless BA wanted to try a 757.


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 12636 times:

Quoting Lovinitflyboy (Thread starter):
I guess this will free us some slots at LHR and 767's as well, so where to next?

Last year, the usual ORD flight during summer was 2x/B772ER and 1x B744....the B767 replaced the B744 during "off peak" times....this year, after peak season is over (with the 2x B772 and 1x B744), it will be 1x daily each of a B744, B763 and B772 or 2x B744 and 1x B763, depending which day of the week..

Mon/Tues/Thurs/Sat is 2x B744 and 1x B767
Wed/Fri/Sun is 1x daily of B767, B777 and B772...



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineLHUSA From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 569 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 12636 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 2):
UK's CAA reported that DTW-LHR traffic was only 6719 pax in June, down 38% from the year before.

Wow, I'm surprised the numbers dropped so much! DTW has been so successful for LH, do you think that LH stole away many of those passengers, or? Of course LH has the auto industry to help support the flight, but it is far from the only factor leading to LH's success in the market.


User currently offlineSeansasLCY From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 888 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 12617 times:

On BBC news 24 they claimed BA said the HRE route was very unprofitable due to high costs that are continuing to grow and they were having trouble sourcing jet fuel in Zimbabwe. All passengers booked to HRE after the flight ends will be routed through Johannesburg with Comair.

User currently offlineBY188B From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 710 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 12465 times:

just seen the same release on UK's teletext service, However the good news is that it is increasing LGW-MCO, LHR-SEA and also increasing LHR to New York (it didnt state if it was JFK or EWR)) and LHR- Washington


next flights : BD LHR-TXL J, FR SXF-STN Y, SN BRU-LHR Y, MA LHR-BUD Y, BA BUD-LHR J, BA LCY-SNN-JFK J, BA JFK-LHR J, BA
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5557 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 12442 times:

Quoting LHUSA (Reply 4):
Wow, I'm surprised the numbers dropped so much! DTW has been so successful for LH, do you think that LH stole away many of those passengers, or?

If you browse the CAA statistics ( http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=80&pagetype=90 ), you'll see that a number of US points had year over year declines in June and July, with some apparent improvement in August. Northwest's numbers for DTW-LGW were relatively better than BA's: smaller declines in June and July and a gain in August.

Anyway, it looks as if it was a flat summer for US-UK traffic overall.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineDa man From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 887 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 12416 times:

Well, since DTW is gone, I guess that the LHR-DTW-IAH service will become LHR-IAH because of the advent of Open Skies. That was probably what was keeping DTW going up until now.


War Eagle!
User currently offlineB752OS From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 12393 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 2):
UK's CAA reported that DTW-LHR traffic was only 6719 pax in June, down 38% from the year before. BA's flight, the only one from LHR, was apparently a money loser; and, assuming NW gets a few LHR slots for next March, it would continue to lose money unless BA wanted to try a 757.

Is there a way to find out traffic stats for other cities?


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7557 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 12393 times:

Quoting Da man (Reply 8):
Well, since DTW is gone, I guess that the LHR-DTW-IAH service will become LHR-IAH because of the advent of Open Skies. That was probably what was keeping DTW going up until now.

That and the fact that they will now have to compete with NW on the DTW-LHR route.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineUPPERDECKFAN From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 12359 times:

I flown LHR-DTW-LHR twice this year, it's a shame to loose it.........

Have been wondering whether a routing like LHR-BWI-DTW or LHR-PHL-DTW would be feasible to avoid dropping DTW, then I realize if they aren't able to fill the plane offering a non-stop nonetheless would do it with a one-stop.......

Sad news



744,742,741,772,773,762,732,735,738,752,727,717,DC10,DC9,M82,M87,319,320,321,343,346,L1011,CRJ2,CRJ9,E190,ATR42,DSH8,
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5557 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 12306 times:

Quoting B752OS (Reply 9):
Is there a way to find out traffic stats for other cities?

Look at the link I provided. The CAA provides numbers for domestic and international UK routes by airport.

If you want US details I believe you have to wait at least 3 months for domestic data and 5 months for international data; in addition the interface provided by the Bureau of Transportation Statistics is comparatively harder to use - only one or two steps up from raw SQL language.

For US data, start here: http://www.transtats.bts.gov/databas...1&Mode_Desc=Aviation&Subject_ID2=0



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4927 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 12228 times:

Quoting Lovinitflyboy (Thread starter):
but this was the first i head about Harare!

Zimbabwe is a mess, with a 4 figure inflation rate. Plus I imagine there aren't many business linls to the UK any more since their President doesnt like the UK

Any word on if ATL will move to LHR at a later date?



Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
User currently offlineCV990A From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 1425 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 12203 times:

Quoting BY188B (Reply 6):
LHR- Washington

Interesting... any word if it is LHR-IAD or LHR-BWI? Thanks!



Kittens Give Morbo Gas
User currently offlineBY188B From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 710 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 12039 times:

Quoting CV990A (Reply 14):
Interesting... any word if it is LHR-IAD or LHR-BWI? Thanks!

BaStew says on the other thread http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/3617749/ its IAD



next flights : BD LHR-TXL J, FR SXF-STN Y, SN BRU-LHR Y, MA LHR-BUD Y, BA BUD-LHR J, BA LCY-SNN-JFK J, BA JFK-LHR J, BA
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17778 posts, RR: 46
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 11931 times:

Quoting SeansasLCY (Reply 5):
All passengers booked to HRE after the flight ends will be routed through Johannesburg with Comair.

Who was flying LON/HRE toward the end anyway? I'd imagine it'd be all VFR.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3811 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 11931 times:

No surprise that BA is ditching DTW-LHR... I know someone who is a trans-Atlantic pilot for NW, and he feels that NW moving their LGW ops to LHR is a done deal. In fact, he's heard rumors that NW will transfer all London flights to LHR and end LGW service completely after US/EU Open Skies takes effect due to their limited presence (2x DTW-LGW and 1x MSP-LGW).

As soon as NW moves to LHR, BA's LHR route would have been toast anyway... DTW is a pure SkyTeam hub, through and through. There's just not enough oneworld traffic in DTW to sustain BA service there, not even on a 763ER.



"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlineThomasphoto60 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 4013 posts, RR: 26
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 11931 times:

Its a shame to see DTW loose such long serving route. I can imaging how we in Houston would feel if we lost KLM after 50 years of service .

Thomas



"Show me the Braniffs"
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 11880 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 17):
In fact, he's heard rumors that NW will transfer all London flights to LHR and end LGW service completely after US/EU Open Skies takes effect due to their limited presence (2x DTW-LGW and 1x MSP-LGW).

...slots?



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7757 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 11840 times:

Quoting Humberside (Reply 13):
Any word on if ATL will move to LHR at a later date?

None. Im guessing if they had the slots for it they would have announced it. Im sure ATL service will eventually move to LHR, but IAH and DFW will higher priorities for BA.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 10):
That and the fact that they will now have to compete with NW on the DTW-LHR route.

I doubt that is why they dropped it. I think the reason could be traced to Detroits dying economy and minimal business ties with England. BA competes with lots of other airlines on their home turf (ATL with DL, IAH with CO, and DFW with AA to name a few). All of those cities' metro areas are about the same size as Southeastern MI (maybe a little larger but not by much now), but you dont see BA flee them becuase they are afriad of competition.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3811 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 11824 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 19):
...slots?

It's been mentioned here many times that SkyTeam carriers at LHR (mainly AF and KL) will be reallocating slots to NW, CO, and DL for LHR services. Also, SkyTeam carriers will get T4 after BA leaves for T5, which should make things easier.

[Edited 2007-09-19 21:00:59]


"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlineAisak From Spain, joined Aug 2005, 763 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 11661 times:

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 11):
Have been wondering whether a routing like LHR-BWI-DTW or LHR-PHL-DTW would be feasible to avoid dropping DTW

Given no rights will be granted for the BWI-DTW or the PHL-DTW it would make more sense to do LON-Canada-DTW to carry local passengers using 5th freedom rights


User currently offlineJetskipper From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 405 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 11538 times:

Now that BA has dropped Detroit, how many US cities has BA had service only to lose service? I can think of 5: Detroit, San Diego, Charlotte, New Orleans and Pittsburg.

User currently offlineThestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 11463 times:

I can remember the last time I flew into DTW which was now a very long 7 years ago, there was a BA 747-400 there, and then they started using a 777-200, then the 767-300 and now it's getting cancelled.
Withe exception of 9/11 I would assume that air travel overall would increase over time even for a route like DTW-LHR, not start with a 747-400 and now be reduced to nothing. Lufthansa has doubled its flights, Air France still flies theirs (I might be wrong about this), why has BA had such a tough time on this route?


25 Post contains links and images Fruitbat : Things are apparently improving though, it's below 7000% now http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7001135.stm On a serious note, Zimbabwe is currently
26 Post contains links Bennett123 : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7002827.stm Another link on BBC. How many flights are Comair doing from JNB.
27 Albird87 : Well now with DTW gone i guess they could use that slot for ATL so i guess that will be moved to LHR now.
28 Mutu : In fairness, Charlotte and Pittsburgh were US routes flown under BA colours when BA had a strategic investment in US. San Diego similarly was an inhe
29 Mutu : What is fascinating to me is the BA press release states one of the issues as a lack of jet fuel in Zimbabwe. They say they currently have to truck i
30 Bennett123 : https://www.britishairways.com/travel/schedules/public/en_gb It seems that they are useing a B777. It is not available for other use except for Monday
31 SANFan : Hey Detroit, being from San Diego, the scene of the last great US pullout by BA, I can feel your pain! But, I do have the perfect solution to our prob
32 Bartond : Wow, looking at the link with the UK-US traffic stats, what is the big reason for the 32% drop in pax flying LGW-ATL? Did DL or BA reduce a bunch of c
33 BCALBOY : ]In fairness, Charlotte and Pittsburgh were US routes flown under BA colours when BA had a strategic investment in US. San Diego similarly was an inhe
34 Post contains links and images Edina : Explain this pic then   .............. http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1228901/L/ US crews did operate the PIT/CLT/BWI - LGW as BA for approx 2 y
35 MAH4546 : They told MIA officials that they will be going 3x daily in October 2008, though that's so far off that things can change quite quickly. The early no
36 LAXdude1023 : It might be why BA doesnt seem in a big rush to get ATL service moved to LHR.
37 WA707atMSP : As I mentioned in the "BA and DTW" thread, DTW has historically been paired with another city by BA. Over the years, it has been a tag from Montreal,
38 MAH4546 : It's a poor performing route. I wouldn't be shocked if its just dropped, though a move to Heathrow could change it's fortunes. But is it worth using
39 LAXdude1023 : Honestly I wouldnt think so. Looking at all of the markets that have LGW service on BA: ATL, DFW, and IAH always struck me as the ones that would hav
40 Summa767 : It is a shame, particularly so for Harare. BA continues shrinking its route network whilst VS expands theirs.
41 Viscount724 : With very rare exceptions, the days of tag-on sectors like that are over. The costs of operating the tag sector will in almost all cases exceed any a
42 Jacobin777 : ...and if AF/KL give 2-3 slots to each carrier, what prime time slots are they going to hold (regardless of revenue sharing)?
43 Hotelmode : Yes, but BA is making plenty of money and knows its network. VS is making very poor returns given the current trading conditions. They have started s
44 LH423 : I think IAH, which currently operates as a tag to the DTW flight, will be the first priority to get an LHR slot. Well, DTW has been a poor performing
45 Da man : Houston has more than just that on BA: We have two daily 772s to LGW along with the 763 on the IAH-DTW-LHR route. It will be interesting to see if th
46 Hotelmode : Its i think the first interesting effect of "open skies". Certainly in recent years DTW was served because of Bermuda 2 not in spite of it. If slots b
47 Hotelmode : Its a double daily 772 to start with. But i suspect you'll be right long term.
48 LH423 : I realize that there are more flights to London, but the IAH-DTW-LHR was IAH's only LHR link. And...as I expected, BA has announced that IAH and DFW
49 Thomasphoto60 : How are BA's DFW loads? I have read here in the past that they are not that great. Thomas
50 LH423 : Well, in the 4 years I worked at BA, the flight was rarely full, particularly in J and F. Of course, like every route, it had it's high points as wel
51 FURUREFA : BA will still serve HRE, but with MN through JNB. BA will still be able to get passengers from the world to HRE, just with an extra stop. Matt
52 WA707atMSP : I took BA DTW-YMX-LHR in 1989. Only four passengers got off the aircraft at YMX. The next morning, there was a YMX bag on the belt for my flight at L
53 Post contains links N174UA : Well, according to today's Puget Sound (SEA) Business Journal, we have the answer to where the a/c from DTW-LHR is going: http://seattle.bizjournals.
54 AeroWesty : Add Honolulu and Anchorage to your list.
55 EVA777SEA : Maybe it frees up a slot for the additional SEA frequencies, but I doubt thay will be using a 763 on the addition 3 flights...
56 Post contains images ThreeIfByAir : Agreed. Since we've been getting a 744 & 772ER mix, I can't see that really changing much. Still, the increase is a huge surprise -- can anyone enlig
57 Post contains images BA777ER236 : I don't think that this is a fair statement! BA (longhaul) have, in the last three years, started services to YYC and BLR, and is likely to start new
58 Flymad : Currently AFAIK 1 return flight per day
59 BCALBOY : Think its more likely that its the 3 per week HRE service that is funding the incr on SEA. The current schedule ... LHR/SEA 1255 DAY 3 1505 DAILY 171
60 Brilondon : I believe that it has to do with the lack of any connecting service to other points in the U.S. As was stated in a previous response, DTW is a pure S
61 BCAL : BCal never offered a regular scheduled service to San Diego. They did have the occasional charter flight, plus the odd add-on to existing LGW-LAX fli
62 Bartond : Interesting, I've heard the same thing time and again but the website shows loads for DFW as steady (actually a 2% increase) year over year. That doe
63 AIR MALTA : Well VS added CPT, MRU, DXB, BOM, SYD, and soon NBO. In the other hand BA dropped dozens of longhaul destinations : MNL, TPE, KIX, SEL, CCS, BOG, HRE
64 Edina : Which were both intermediate points on other routes i.e. predominantly a tech/fuel stop in the days when the jets of the time did not have the eg ear
65 BCAL : 6 destinations over 7 years is not that impressive. I do not think BA has flown to places like PER, MNL, BNE since the 1980s, so you cannot compare d
66 Kiwiandrew : Hi Trevor are you including the soon to be nonexistent BMed in the franchise carriers ? if so then you will need to deduct a few destinations at the
67 Bennett123 : Unless BA had very good load factors to HRE, then it will be much simpler to fly the B777 to JNB, (which will prob have higher load factors) and have
68 BCAL : The figures were extracted from BA's annual accounts, so they include the BMed destinations. Doubtless there will then be a thread by the BA Bashers
69 Mutu : well again thats a bit simplistic. Calgary, Bangalore have been added, Mumbai and Delhi increased to double daily a few years back. There has been pl
70 Mutu : Anchorage was a fuelling stop when 747 Classics were flying LHR/NRT and when Russian airspace was "closed" so whilst strictly correct there was minim
71 TymnBalewne : BA's PIT service predated the BA/US alliance. Before the alliance the route was flown to LHR, usually via IAD. When the alliance came into effect the
72 Panamair : Yes, DL reduced the number of daily LGW-ATL flights from 3 to 2 this summer (because of the JFK-LGW route and frequency increase there). Furthermore,
73 Bongodog1964 : BA are only making a simple commercial decision The problems in Zimbabwe, particularly for UK businesses are horrendous. As mentioned earlier 7000 %
74 BCALBOY : There has been a lot more potential for VS to add routes as they were starting from a small network. BA already flew all the key routes so profitable
75 Beany : Not quite, try 2000 for Perth and Brisbane and a little later for Manila.
76 Yellowtail : Not so fast....remember you have EK starting IAH..which will surely pull off some of the high yield oil traffic.....2X777 should be more than adequat
77 Jfk777 : I'm surprised they still flew to Harare with all the problems that country has. Detroit is a surprise since Bloomfield Hills & other suberbs are very
78 NASCARAirforce : Wouldn't a big reason for this be that Northwest is flying to LHR instead of LGW from DTW? I thought a big part of the reason people flew BA from DTW
79 RwSEA : That includes all carriers, including DL and BA. DL dropped a frequency from ATL when it added JFK-LGW. And also, now pax have the option of connecti
80 Post contains links AeroWesty : So what? They still fit the criteria. http://www.wingnet.org/rtw/rtw005aa.htm
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