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Aircraft With Only One Winglet In MIA?  
User currently offlineAA388 From Puerto Rico, joined Sep 2007, 305 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5290 times:

Aound 1:30 pm my friend saw an airplane with one winglet land in MIA. Any ideas as to what airline/type?

-max


Flown on A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A340-300, 737-3,5,7,8, 747-400, 757-2,3, 767-300, 777-200
25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAmazonphil From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 561 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5258 times:

Co flew around a 737-500...ship 630 with one winglet for a while testing stuff but that was a few months ago so I'm thinking it wasn't them.
Felipe



If it ain't Boeing, I ain't goeing!
User currently offlineAmazonphil From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 561 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5245 times:

Quoting Amazonphil (Reply 1):
ship 630 with one winglet for a while testing stuff

I might also add that it was during testing so,it wasn't doing commercial service...and had an "experimental" sticker placed by the entrance doors in front.

Felipe



If it ain't Boeing, I ain't goeing!
User currently offlineAA388 From Puerto Rico, joined Sep 2007, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5181 times:

All he remebers is that it had one winglet.

-max



Flown on A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A340-300, 737-3,5,7,8, 747-400, 757-2,3, 767-300, 777-200
User currently offlineAmazonphil From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 561 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5171 times:

ah huh, or maybe some other airline or private charter doing the same testing.. just trying to help.

Felipe



If it ain't Boeing, I ain't goeing!
User currently offlineJlbmedia From United States of America, joined Jun 2002, 623 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5126 times:
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If one Winglet is damaged, is the aircraft legally able to stay in service with one winglet removed? Or is the aircraft O.O.S. until it is replaced? John.


JLB54061
User currently offlineAmazonphil From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 561 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5091 times:

Can't be damaged in Commercial service...either both on and airworthy or none on..as was in the past.

Felipe



If it ain't Boeing, I ain't goeing!
User currently offlineEXTspotter From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5063 times:

Not neccessarily, it is possible to keep an aircraft in service with one winglet as it does not affect the safety of the aircraft, however, this should only be used if the aircraft needs to go back to base or whatever to repair the winglet.


AF BE BY FR MV PD SZ U2 VZ DHC6, 8-3/4Q, 732/8, 763ER, A319, A380
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4947 times:

Quoting Jlbmedia (Reply 5):
If one Winglet is damaged, is the aircraft legally able to stay in service with one winglet removed? Or is the aircraft O.O.S. until it is replaced?

Depends on which aircraft.

Quoting Amazonphil (Reply 6):
Can't be damaged in Commercial service...either both on and airworthy or none on..as was in the past.



Quoting EXTspotter (Reply 7):
Not neccessarily, it is possible to keep an aircraft in service with one winglet as it does not affect the safety of the aircraft, however, this should only be used if the aircraft needs to go back to base or whatever to repair the winglet.

Airbus can do revenue service without a winglet. Boeing can't. Not sure about Douglas, Embraer, or Bombardier.

All can do a non-revenue ferry flight without the winglet to get home to base for repairs.

Tom.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25871 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4931 times:

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 8):
Airbus can do revenue service without a winglet. Boeing can't. Not sure about Douglas, Embraer, or Bombardier.

In the case of the A318/319/320/321 (and A300-600 and A310-300) it's technically a wing fence and not a winglet, and yes they can be flown with just one. There are a few A.net photos of A320s etc. with just one fence/winglet, probably after one was damaged and had to be removed for repairs.


User currently offlineXtoler From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 953 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4931 times:

I just figured because the airlines are having money woes, they can only buy one winglet at a time. Quoting something from Jeff Foxworthy, "Four more payments and this tattoo is mine!"

Just kidding. I'm not sure how it would feel to fly with only one winglet, but I can imagine, if the a/c has to be ferried somewhere it can be flyable. I'm guessing it would run along the same rules as having to ferry a plane with landing gear not being able to retract or for that matter flaps not retracting.

BTW, anyone have any idea what the deal was with the A380 flying around without it's winglets?



EMB145 F/A, F/E, J41 F/A, F/E, because my wife clipped my wings, armchair captain
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25871 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4880 times:

Quoting Xtoler (Reply 10):
BTW, anyone have any idea what the deal was with the A380 flying around without it's winglets?

It hit a wall with one winglet while taxiing at BKK during a demonstration trip to Asia and damaged one winglet, so they removed them both to avoid delaying the trip.


User currently offlineFlyingClrs727 From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 733 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4880 times:

Quoting EXTspotter (Reply 7):
Not neccessarily, it is possible to keep an aircraft in service with one winglet as it does not affect the safety of the aircraft, however, this should only be used if the aircraft needs to go back to base or whatever to repair the winglet.

But it would affect the payload and range. I doubt a 757 would be sent across the Atlantic with just one winglet.


User currently offlineBok269 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 2104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4761 times:

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 8):
Boeing can't.

744s have flown on one winglet several times.


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"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 4572 times:

Quoting Xtoler (Reply 10):
I'm not sure how it would feel to fly with only one winglet, but I can imagine, if the a/c has to be ferried somewhere it can be flyable.

On a 737, you pick up the following restrictions if you are missing a winglet:
-daylight flight only
-max airspeed 300 knots/0.82 M
-avoid turbulence and abrupt control inputs
-avoid flight in icing conditions
-Max crosswind for takeoff/landing is 15 knots
-Cat I landing only
-Reduce all performance limited weights by 15,000 lbs
-Increase trip fuel by 15%
-Regulatory approval required for ferry flight

Tom.


User currently offlineEarlyNFF From Germany, joined Sep 2007, 233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 4532 times:

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 14):
-Increase trip fuel by 15%

that is quite a bit!

MEL for B744 says: trip fuel increase 2.5% for one missing, two missing not allowed.


User currently offlineAA388 From Puerto Rico, joined Sep 2007, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4454 times:

Quoting EarlyNFF (Reply 15):
MEL for B744 says: trip fuel increase 2.5% for one missing, two missing not allowed.

How important are the 744 winglets? I though they were for ascthetics(sp) purposes.
And how about the 744D? Isnt that just a 744 without winglets?


-max



Flown on A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A340-300, 737-3,5,7,8, 747-400, 757-2,3, 767-300, 777-200
User currently offlineEarlyNFF From Germany, joined Sep 2007, 233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4393 times:

Quoting AA388 (Reply 16):
How important are the 744 winglets?

they reduce induced drag (wing tip vortexes) and by that reduce fuel flow.

Quoting AA388 (Reply 16):
And how about the 744D

don´t know about these, who flies them? Only know about the dreamlifter, where they removed the winglets (for whatever problems they experienced)


User currently offlineAA388 From Puerto Rico, joined Sep 2007, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4365 times:

I think that JL and ANA fly them on domestic routes in Japan. I think those are it though. And I know what winglets do I was wondereing if the 744 winglets were for decoration like the A340s. Correct me if I'm wrong.

-max



Flown on A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A340-300, 737-3,5,7,8, 747-400, 757-2,3, 767-300, 777-200
User currently offlineEarlyNFF From Germany, joined Sep 2007, 233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4326 times:

Quoting AA388 (Reply 18):
I was wondereing if the 744 winglets were for decoration like the A340s.

I think the engineers didn´t have that in mind


User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4223 times:

Quoting EarlyNFF (Reply 15):
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 14):
-Increase trip fuel by 15%

that is quite a bit!

MEL for B744 says: trip fuel increase 2.5% for one missing, two missing not allowed.

It's a bit of a different situation. MEL dispatch on the 747 is for revenue service and it doesn't come with any other restrictions...you're just carrying extra fuel to cover the increased drag. For the 737 you're into a non-revenue ferry flight with a bunch of other restrictions. It's not that drag went up by 15% (not even close) but, given all the other restrictions, you need to pad your reserves up to cover your butt.

Quoting EarlyNFF (Reply 19):
Quoting AA388 (Reply 18):
I was wondereing if the 744 winglets were for decoration like the A340s.

I think the engineers didn´t have that in mind

The engineers on the 747-400 were directed to make the winglet easily removable so that they could pull it at any time...if it paid for its own weight it was acceptable, if it had a benefit that was great (but not expected). The winglets on the 747, MD-11, and fences on older Airbii do have some positive benefit but they're more branding than anything else because they're very very small relative to their wings.

Tom.


User currently offlineBok269 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 2104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4126 times:

Quoting AA388 (Reply 16):
I though they were for ascthetics(sp) purposes.

They are for more than just show. They would be very heavy decorations with very minimal impact (vs. a livery which is advertising for an airline).



"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
User currently onlineBrenintw From Taiwan, joined Jul 2006, 1708 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4109 times:

Quoting EarlyNFF (Reply 17):
Quoting AA388 (Reply 16):
And how about the 744D

don´t know about these, who flies them?

The 744D are specially modified for domestic ops in Japan -- I believe they have beefed-up landing gear and other mods. They can be converted to pretty much standard 744s by adding winglets.

The winglets were removed because on flights as short as the ones they're used on, the winglets actually reduce the overall performance of the A/C due to their weight. It's only on longer flights that the winglets result in reduced fuel-burn sufficient to offset their added weight.



I'm tired of the A vs. B sniping. Neither make planes that shed wings randomly!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25871 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4089 times:

Quoting AA388 (Reply 16):
And how about the 744D? Isnt that just a 744 without winglets?

The JL and NH 747-400Ds also lack the extended wingspan to which the winglets are attached, so the -400Ds have the same 195 ft. 8 in. wingspan as all earlier 747s, almost 16 feet less than the 211 ft. 5 in. wingspan of the standard -400 with winglets. No need to carry the extra weight around on 1 to 2 hour flights. It's possible to modify the -400Ds into standard -400s by adding the wingtip extensions and winglets should anyone ever want to operate them on longhaul routes.


User currently offlineTribird1011 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 209 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4052 times:

As said before, some aircraft are allowed to fly revenue service with a winglet missing (subject to certain restrictions- B744, A340 possibly A330, and the smaller Airbuses)

The Boeings (737/757) not sure if they're allowed revenue flight - but are allowed ferry flight to get to a maintenance base (again subject to restrictions)

As far as the MD-11, i think I've read somewhere that without a winglet, it is effectively grounded - either it must be repaired/replaced where it's at, or remove the second winglet for a maintenance ferry flight to a repair base. Can anyone confirm this?


User currently offlineTheginge From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4008 times:

I know of an airbus A320 that has flown around in revenue service for over a week with only one winglet. The airbus A320 series can fly with one winglet in revenue service but there is a slight performance penalty as it uses a bit more fuel.

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